Would it have been better...?

[Trebr Drab]

If instead of getting different "levels" of resources (leather, spine leather...iron ore, shadow iron...etc.), if we instead got oils or minerals that get mixed/rubbed on/whatever...to the basic resource?

In other words, instead of getting leather, spined leather, etc., you get oils that are added to regular leather to give it the properties that we know now for spined leather. And instead of mining up shadow ore and just using that to make shadow ingots, we had to mix it with regular ore to get the shadow ingots.

The purpose here is to maintain the need for the basic materials. The reason for that is the stagnant economy that we see now.

 

[Lady Storm]

Interesting ideas.

Many here would not be easy to convince of the merits of it as many are so use to the system as it stands. In the past You and I and many here have given the Dev many ideas to improve the system of ore, lumber, and many of the supplys we use every day. From "Farming" xpacs to increesed detection of resources.

As it stands, I for one would have loved to have our ideas given serious consideration as many here were highly engaging on the ideas tossed about by all. But and I for one fear the future of UO is up in the air... Who do you talk to? Without Cal the next one in his shoes has done nothing to show anyone who he is. A name and a job description is not what I call a "Hello".

We can hope some sort of improvement can be worked out to improve the system... the gods know we need it! Thank goodness for the reward stumps or I'd never get a frost log!!!

 

[Lord Frodo]

 

[Kayne]

I think the current resources should stay but lets be able to do more with them.

Leather can make coats (no properties) for instance.
Wool, cotton etc can be made into shawls/headscarves again not necessarily a property carrying item.

However I do think that oil resources or mineral deposits (isnt niter in that category?) could be an interesting addition for the creation of more interesting items. Or for gaining certain property enhancements. So a mineral could be used to enhance the hardness of something (relating to physical resist perhaps or DCI)

 

[sayler04]

Maybe a compromise, using existing items for the same effect. For instance an alchemist could rub various clothing with positions for a desired effect, like maybe using deadly poison on a tunic could have a chanceto poison anyone that hits you. It could be a temporary effect, or a charged effect, so it doesn't step on imbuer toes.

It would be also cool if things like boura fur and fey wings and other stuff with no use could be added for som effect.

 

[Uvtha]

The purpose here is to maintain the need for the basic materials. The reason for that is the stagnant economy that we see now.

Is it? Seems to me that the problem with the economy is that no one needs much because nothing ever disappears, and most people can supply themselves with whatever they need crafted.

It really wouldn't be any different if there were an extra step involved in acquiring difference resources. The items you need to make the resource would have the same effect as the multiple resources we have now.

 

[Trebr Drab]

The purpose here is to maintain the need for the basic materials. The reason for that is the stagnant economy that we see now.

Is it? Seems to me that the problem with the economy is that no one needs much because nothing ever disappears, and most people can supply themselves with whatever they need crafted.

It really wouldn't be any different if there were an extra step involved in acquiring difference resources. The items you need to make the resource would have the same effect as the multiple resources we have now.

I agree about the need for losing things. I don't agree, in case you are insinuating this, that we need looting and open PvP like UO once had.

Losing things to MOB looting our corpses, and wearing out, those are important. And requiring resources to repair things is something UO also needs.

This topic alone, it won't fix things. Lots of changes are required. I don't think the players will accept that, though. And the low response to this post lends to that assessment. You know that old saying... "you have become your own worst enemy".....

 

[Uvtha]

I agree about the need for losing things. I don't agree, in case you are insinuating this, that we need looting and open PvP like UO once had.
.

Sadly that is the only way to have an economy like we once had. If you don't lose items, there can be no economy, and the only palatable way to lose them is by actually losing them. If items break after 3 days play people will just become irritated.

Currency and resource inflation was low, economic interaction was vibrant and varied. It was all because of open pvp and full loot. Is there a cost? Yeah, but that is why the economy was good. Siege was proof of that (back when more than 10 people played the shard) our economy was great, lots of people selling and tradings all manner of things (tons of things that were considered useless on regular shards) and not for 100 million gold, but for 100k.

I accept that most people don't want open pvp, and full (or even partial!) item loss, but that IS what made the economy work. Just look at EVE. They have an amazing economy... full pvp, full loot.

You could drop insurance, that would certainly help, but making items decay quickly would not work. And with out the pks you can't stop inflation or scripting (apparently).

I think that mmo players in general if they got over their insane fears of loss, would have a much better crop of games to play, and experiences to have.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Uvtha, there's something you don't mention about the days when "Currency and resource inflation was low" and that's the LACK of bags of sending, LRC, checks, and commodity deeds, also gold was 3x heavier to carry as well.

Difficulty in storing and transporting gold and resources kept a soft cap on them that has since been removed.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Whether you got a basic resource and then modified it with a rarer resource, or got a rarer resource, leads by definition to the same place.

As to those of you who are using this as an excuse to argue that we need not insurance and a return to the pre-Trammel days (and let's face it: whether you admit to it or not, this time, at least some of you mean EXACTLY that and have unsubtly said so in the past), I will remind you of the following, which I have stated time and time again.

In other games, from what I read, keeping your stuff is even less of a pain than it is in UO.

Losing items in the post-AoS UO (and really people, we've had longer WITH AoS at this point than we did PRE-AoS, so really it's time to adapt) is tantamount to losing skills (not in a Faction Skill Loss sense, but permanently or long-term) in the old system.

Either way, losing skills or items permanently or long-term, the result would be to, especially in the PvP field in Fel, favor disproportionately the big zerg wolf pack PvP guilds which can on the field minimize the chance of actually losing something to near-zero, or can much more easily replace any items that DO happen to be lost.

Ultimately of course such a system simply increases frustration for those of us who do not wish to play as part of a zerg pack.

And let's face it. Most of you who argue this are perfectly fine with that outcome.

I, for one, am not, and nor are the casual players you meet while wandering around Britannia.

If this was what most players wanted, Siege and Mugen wouldn't be the least-populated shards, as was stated by Draconi some time ago in a post that was conveniently deleted.

-Galen's player

 

[virtualhabitat]

Someone told me that oil cloth was once used to wipe down swords or they would rust.

Perhaps requiring players to maintain equipment should become important if it is expected to perform at peak efficiency.

Swords and other metal items oiled, leather armor could be mink oiled, cloth must be protected from moths. cloth must be washed or it becomes threadbare (not to mention the smell).
poisons and other potions could loose potency over a set time.

All those weapons and armors sitting in that castle for years would simply turn to dust with no one to ensure proper maintenance.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Someone told me that oil cloth was once used to wipe down swords or they would rust.

Perhaps requiring players to maintain equipment should become important if it is expected to perform at peak efficiency.

Swords and other metal items oiled, leather armor could be mink oiled, cloth must be protected from moths. cloth must be washed or it becomes threadbare (not to mention the smell).
poisons and other potions could loose potency over a set time.

All those weapons and armors sitting in that castle for years would simply turn to dust with no one to ensure proper maintenance.

As I recall the old system never worked right and would usually just annoy people when it did.

To all those who say that equipment wouldn't last forever IRL, you are likely right, but also keep in mind that armor and swords would be passed down through generations.

Even if didn't last forever it'd last at least as long as UO has or likely will.

-Galen's player

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean or what the purpose would be for using oil. I think what you're saying is, to make it easier to get more of the harder to get resources but that really doesn't come across without saying how rare the oils would be.

Or is it about scripting. There seems to be something that I don't understand but couldn't you just use iron ore? For example: 1 Val, 2 Iron make 4 Val Igs. So, the Val melting mixes with the Iron, giving you more and causing the use of Iron x2 for every 1 use of Val.

Wood could also be considered, i'm not sure what direction to go where a piece of furniture could have 2 types of wood or more. Like, an Oak Table Top with Pine Legs or some type of Pulp Machine, where you could take the wood and chop it up, add glue, cook it and then press it to create more wood of a rare type. So, again, 1 Bloodwood, 4 Normal wood equal 4 Bloodwood.

The economy problem, I would think is due to the lack of farming or the need to consume food as well as water of substance but I think as you add more to the economy that is used rather than permanent, the better the economy system could be. So, it's my opinion that the economy is young and possibly other systems could be added where you would have more choices.

 

[Uvtha]

...

Uvtha, there's something you don't mention about the days when "Currency and resource inflation was low" and that's the LACK of bags of sending, LRC, checks, and commodity deeds, also gold was 3x heavier to carry as well.

Difficulty in storing and transporting gold and resources kept a soft cap on them that has since been removed.

That played a part yes, but no human threat the ability to gold farm and resource script 24/7 with complete impunity arose and that is what really caused the trouble. Gold and resources started to inflate sharply after tram came out and has been on the rise ever since.

Siege back when it had a decent player base did not suffer from these problems.

 

[Uvtha]

Someone told me that oil cloth was once used to wipe down swords or they would rust.

It was actually based around poison. I think how it worked was after you used a poisoned blade it would start to corrode slowly, so if you didn't want to ruin the weapon you used the oil cloth. But people just used gm stuff so it didn't matter much.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Well scripting wasn't really an issue at all to begin with back then (at least before T2A allowed for client hacks) and you could make as much gold as you wanted to in the safety of town via crafting. Again there were soft-caps in place that slowed that process down as well... you could only sell 5 of an item at a time and after an arbitrary number of items sold the NPC would no longer buy the item for a set period of time.

Over the course of the game's lifespan, they've taken out most of the soft caps to gaining wealth which is only half of the equation. If you unrestrict the faucet, you have to widen the drain as well to maintain equilibrium.

As for the inability to gold farm 24/7, to many players (myself included), this equated as well to the inability to experience a large portion of the game, something they were paying a monthly fee and in their view were denied a significant portion of the advertised experience, so you have to take the bad with the good here. But again, they had to balance the increase in incoming gold with a method to make sure the gold flowed out again.

So I see a few things at work really beyond simply they stopped letting us PK everyone...

- a LOT of restrictions were lifted in terms of obtaining and storing wealth

- other than a few brief sting operations, exploiters have been allowed to run almost freely (something that I mentioned as a Catch-22 in another thread in that more proper policing of the game would bring in more revenue from more honest customers, but they need more funding to get the manpower needed to police the game effectively)

- there needs to be more efforts made at removing wealth from the game (the "sink" portion of the model, "widening the drain"). Granted these CANNOT be done in a punitive fashion. People simply aren't going to go for having to add in extra work to a game to "maintain status quo".

 

[Uvtha]

So lets say they took away all the ways to make gold... other than monster drops. Do you think we wouldn't have the hyper inflation we have now?

I think we would since the vast majority of gold comes from monsters and always has.

Gold sinks also, never work. Gold removal practices have to be essential. They cant be optional stuff. Things like regs (that no one uses), and bandages (cloth), gems (for imbuing) tithing (chiv, which is a good one) are the only good types of gold sinks. Donate gold for cool items as we have seen does nothing.
But its nearly impossible to add more essential sinks without them being punitive. Turning off (or at least slowing down) the faucet is a better solution.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

So lets say they took away all the ways to make gold... other than monster drops. Do you think we wouldn't have the hyper inflation we have now?

Some have claimed that the most-efficient way to make money is by playing the buy/sell game with NPCs.

If they are reporting their returns honest (I have no way of knowing), then what appears to be your premise, that turning down PvM gold drops would somehow "fix" the economy (more on that in a moment) is indeed incorrect.

I must also point out, as I strive to every time this issue comes up, that it is by no means clear not it is an objective fact that the economy is 'broken' in some way, especially since everyone seems to use a different definition of 'broken.'

Sometimes people use that term to mean that prices are too high ("THE ECONOMY IS WRECKED BECAUSE YOU CANNOT BUY ANYTHING GOOD AS A NOOB!!!", others that prices are too low ("IMBUING WRECKED THE ECONOMY BY MAKING MY 40M ORNATE AXE WORTH ONLY 10M!!!"), others that there is too little gold ("NOOBS CAN'T MAKE ENOUGH GOLD TO STAY AFLOAT"), others that there is too much gold ("THERE IS TOO MUCH INFLATION AND NOOBS CAN MAKE GOLD TOO EASY!!!").

-Galen's player

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I agree, gold sinks but hopefully we're not going to far off topic but maybe we could incorporate everyone's ideas. Like the oils could be sold. The only problem is that they would have to cost more than what one makes as a convenience to produce the items.

Maybe repairs should cost money. Like the oil cloth but what if it actually cost gp to repair an item? So, if one had a deed to repair and then was charged the amount of repair for another total or gold sink. So, The NPC would do the repair but would also take gp for that action. So, you buy the deed and then it costs money to use it.

I'm not sure if food would cause people to become upset because you could have many ways of getting it. You can buy food, you can hunt food and cook it and you can grow food.

You could also add more things into the economy that could be consumed or used 1 time but be a necessity. The funny thing is when you talk about people having billions of gold, I don't see how it would really affect the economy unless you had a solution to balance it.

 

[Umfufu]

I think the most simple solution is to just have more consumables.
Stuff we would like to use everyday.

Like making wood pulp from normal boards.
What about making paper, you can color with dyes to make your own mail paper and birthday cards.
Making our own crab traps.
Leather to make customizable covers for spell and runebooks.
Make our own carpets.
Ship barding deeds
Making old style earrings of teleporting/invis, when the charges are out the item dissapears.
Plant grow boxes, 1 per plant, to keep the alchy in business have to use also potions to craft these, like one of each poition per day the box can last, when the plants is pulled out the box goes poof.

Just sucking stuff out of my thumb, am sure there are countless ideas to make more player made consumables.

The more player made and consumed the better for the economy.

One mentioned EVE economy, I think it is not only due to the fact there is pvp in the game what is so good for the economy there, but also the fact that 95% of the items on the market are player made or looted.

In UO they can maybe remove alot of items like the tools, boards, leather, instruments and so on from the vendors, to make the market more player driven and give more purpose to the basics items then they have now.

Just my 2gp

 

[Uvtha]

Some have claimed that the most-efficient way to make money is by playing the buy/sell game with NPCs.

If they are reporting their returns honest (I have no way of knowing), then what appears to be your premise, that turning down PvM gold drops would somehow "fix" the economy (more on that in a moment) is indeed incorrect.

I must also point out, as I strive to every time this issue comes up, that it is by no means clear not it is an objective fact that the economy is 'broken' in some way, especially since everyone seems to use a different definition of 'broken.'

Sometimes people use that term to mean that prices are too high ("THE ECONOMY IS WRECKED BECAUSE YOU CANNOT BUY ANYTHING GOOD AS A NOOB!!!", others that prices are too low ("IMBUING WRECKED THE ECONOMY BY MAKING MY 40M ORNATE AXE WORTH ONLY 10M!!!"), others that there is too little gold ("NOOBS CAN'T MAKE ENOUGH GOLD TO STAY AFLOAT"), others that there is too much gold ("THERE IS TOO MUCH INFLATION AND NOOBS CAN MAKE GOLD TOO EASY!!!").

-Galen's player

Well the problem isnt really the number of gold pieces you can get, but the value of them. Even if they turned down gold drops 90% (which obviously would have to be acompanied by a currency change to work) you would still have the same zero deterrent from non stop currency farming, so the value would remain low, even if the numbers dropped.

Don't get me wrong I think that from for no other reasons than aesthetics and simple logistics of moving currency it would be great to drop currency numbers. Id much rather pay 100k for something than 100m.

But it doesn't solve the problem of value of your virtual wealth because there is no scarcity.

I've thought of some ideas over the years to help simulate scarcity without actually having a set world resource number that cant be exceeded, but I still think the most natural way is though (at least partially integrated) open pvp.

As for the merchant buy/sell tango, yes, it can be very profitable, I would imagine it could potentially exceed on a gold per hour basis monsters hunting, but, I think we all can recognize that monster hunting is THE thing to do. Everyone who plays this game hunts monsters (maybe not on every character, but every player hunts monsters aside from a handful of radical exception that might exist). Most of us have probably spent a lot to most of our time hunting monsters. It is the past time of Britannia. It's why most of us buy or work for new gear, its what must be done to get those cool decos for us decorator types, and ingredients for those who craft their days away.

Pvm is an integral and inescapable (and fun) part of the game. Buy low sell high is a niche activity at best. PVM is where the mass of the gold comes from.

To the point of the economy being broken, I wouldn't fall into any of the categories you mention personally. It's not about prices being high, its about the value of currency, and more importantly its about the range of economic interaction. I bring up siege again because I feel that it had a very excellent example of a thriving economy (like... up to like 2 years ago when we started the dipping player base) people sold ALLLLL kinds of thing. Way wider range of items being bought sold and traded in all price ranges, than on a regular shard.
Yes, part of that was due to other special rules (predominately one character rule creating more dependency between players) but none the less, when you collected some gold, it felt like it had value, and you felt like you had a lot of choice as to what you could employ it to acquire. And the open pvp had a very real part in that economy. Not only did they help create scarcity of currency, they also required supplies, and as well when they killed required those killed to need supplies also.

The pk is in my opinion a beatifically parasite. He may annoy you, and foil your plans from time to time, but he absolutely helps to keep commerce flowing and thriving. And I always got a great sense of satisfaction knowing that I made it, and I thrived despite their machinations, so I can add personally

I think a perfect game would have open pvp, full loot, but with two central balancing agents:
1) a carefully devised system of item acquirability and usefulness. A balance where things aren't TOO hard to replace. Just hard enough to keep everyone moving and involved. So that when you do get killed and looted, its just a defeat, not something that makes you want to quit playing.
2) a well thought out set of player justice tools and safeguards to prevent the parasite from destroying its host. This I think is where UO really failed. Pks were impossible to really stop. If player police have actual tools to deal with villians then they have an important role that is satisfying, that of ACTUALLY keeping people who don't pvp safe.

/end mile long post no one will read.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Obviously there are other aspects of the economy that need to be addressed along with this. Insurance, wear, scripting, etc.

The object here, what I'm getting at, is a problem that exists in all games since UO AoS. The "level" system making basic things at beginner level useless. Or mostly so. That means that you end up with only the top rung being able to participate in the economic game. But by requiring the low level resources and adding to them as I suggested means that there is always a market for that stuff. The game doesn't end up leaning heavily to the top end.

Uvtha, I don't think PKers did as much for the economy as you think. They sold what they took, if they didn't use it themselves. That's just a "redistribution of wealth" and doesn't increase production or economic game play. (Yes, Obama is anorlem, rolleyes: )

As a side note though, I do think the game would be much better with open PvP, but it must also have a solid Justice system. One that allows the odd PKing when someone deserves it or roleplay demands it, but keeps players from going rampant with it or suffer the penalties at the hands of the other players. UO almost had it except for the ways to avoid the murder flag and the penalty, the work arounds. They tried to protect the mass PKers from suffering, that doesn't work.

 

[pgib]

Great ideas but we all know how the EA/Mythic department that carefully check ideas coming from the player base looks like:

Don't we?

 

[Uvtha]

Obviously there are other aspects of the economy that need to be addressed along with this. Insurance, wear, scripting, etc.

The object here, what I'm getting at, is a problem that exists in all games since UO AoS. The "level" system making basic things at beginner level useless. Or mostly so. That means that you end up with only the top rung being able to participate in the economic game. But by requiring the low level resources and adding to them as I suggested means that there is always a market for that stuff. The game doesn't end up leaning heavily to the top end.

This imbalance exists because items are never lost. Disparity between the strongest item and the weakest item plays a part, but no matter what, if you don't lose items then everyone just gets more powerful as time goes on, and you have to design content to keep them playing. The upward power spiral is a common thing is most modern mmos, and its all due to no item loss.
As for adding in a new low level thing so that noobs have something to do, that's basically what essences are. Many spawns can be done most of the way by newish characters, and they can make decent money. I would like to see more stuff like that, but not specifically the idea you mentioned.

Uvtha, I don't think PKers did as much for the economy as you think. They sold what they took, if they didn't use it themselves. That's just a "redistribution of wealth" and doesn't increase production or economic game play. (Yes, Obama is anorlem, rolleyes: )

I think you undervalue what pks did for the economy. First off, their primary function was to slow the gold faucet. That is a very important function. One that does not exist in game now. As for reselling items, I found the most pks tended to hoard. Some sold stuff back, but many just had houses full of supplies. I know for a FACT that people were always in need of new gear due to pking. I was one of the brit forge crafters, and I spent tons of time regearing people after pk attacks. That's not supposition, it's fact.
Yeah yeah Obama's a commie...

As a side note though, I do think the game would be much better with open PvP, but it must also have a solid Justice system. One that allows the odd PKing when someone deserves it or roleplay demands it, but keeps players from going rampant with it or suffer the penalties at the hands of the other players. UO almost had it except for the ways to avoid the murder flag and the penalty, the work arounds. They tried to protect the mass PKers from suffering, that doesn't work.

I think there needs to be a solid justice system as well. But I think it needs to mainly be in the hands of the players. There were PLENTY pf anti-pks around, but their efforts were generally futile since killing a red only deterred them for a matter of minutes. If you could put in a system where virtious pvpers could remove reds from an area for some period of time (for one thing) after defeating them that would be a huge step in the right direction.
It would lead to strong body guard guilds that hired out their services for dungeon raids etc, and of course the lone valiant traveling knights keeping the streets safe like medieval batman. All of this would build strong community.

 

[Trebr Drab]

You call that a solid justice system? Where PKers can play their game all the time, and the only cost to them is having a character sidelined for a hour, a night?
PKers kill games. Period. Making a game to suit them is asking for the rest of the players to leave. You can allow PKers only if the rest of the players are satisfied with their punishment. NOT if the punishment is satisfactory to the PKers.

 

[Mirt]

Just look at poor siege where the player base has been driven away. It says something that there are two shards that allow for open pvp and they are all but deserted. I do agree that those people left on those shards are good people. But reintroducing unrestricted pvp is asking for the player base to leave.

 

[Luvmylace]

If instead of getting different "levels" of resources (leather, spine leather...iron ore, shadow iron...etc.), if we instead got oils or minerals that get mixed/rubbed on/whatever...to the basic resource?

In other words, instead of getting leather, spined leather, etc., you get oils that are added to regular leather to give it the properties that we know now for spined leather. And instead of mining up shadow ore and just using that to make shadow ingots, we had to mix it with regular ore to get the shadow ingots.

The purpose here is to maintain the need for the basic materials. The reason for that is the stagnant economy that we see now.

NO. Currently the few things that are still being recycled are the very ones that you want to "change"!
You cannot get squirrel skin and change the fur to sable,because maybe you find it too hard to farm.
The point here is to provide entertainment ,diversity of choices and realism(the beauty of Ultima) ,not convenience and scripting enabling.
Pine does not grow on the great oak, You cannot sheer a sheep and magically change it to mink.
If there was a way to make the a lookalike ,then there should be a reduction of the Mods!.I personally like that scripting has been crippled by the random wheel.What you propose defeats that totally.
As far as Siege is concerned ,people wanted a shard that was hard and resembled the way the game was intended in the begining.They got it. What they forgot is the lack of diversity .there is only difficult no care bear play.

 

[Ned888]

If instead of getting different "levels" of resources (leather, spine leather...iron ore, shadow iron...etc.), if we instead got oils or minerals that get mixed/rubbed on/whatever...to the basic resource?

In other words, instead of getting leather, spined leather, etc., you get oils that are added to regular leather to give it the properties that we know now for spined leather. And instead of mining up shadow ore and just using that to make shadow ingots, we had to mix it with regular ore to get the shadow ingots.

The purpose here is to maintain the need for the basic materials. The reason for that is the stagnant economy that we see now.

Counter Question: How would your oils be different from the system currently in place?

I understand that you want to make use of the basic materials (i.e. - skins from hinds and great harts; basic logs, etc.), but I would challenge you to consider that these things ARE valuable right now and would be MORE valuable if two things happened:

1 - Items degraded faster and insurance was eliminated (go back to the starter equipment 'blessed' stuff).

2 - New players were around in game (they would need basic equipment).

Your idea is excellent and I think it would be an awesome addition to the Alchemy field (sort of a sub-skill). That being said, the fact remains that there is too much powerful stuff hoarded in the game that will never go away because it's too easy to repair (repair deeds), lasts way too long (125 durability takes forever to whittle down, especially if repaired) , and has no chance of being lost due to inexpensive insurance (you can literally insure every single thing in your backpack due to the amount of excess gold in game).

I'd like to hear more on your idea though. Would this work like a low level imbuing ability? Would an alchemist be able to create these oils and things, or would it be a whole new skill? I had considered something like this, but instead using the Tailors ability to Engrave Leather to add runes of power to suits of armor that they made. If you combined Tailoring with Inscription, you might be able to engrave a suite of armor with defensive spells.

*** The engraved armor would have charges, sort of like a rune book and once the charges were up, you would need to drag and drop scrolls onto the armor to recharge the runes. I kind of like the sound of that! ***

I do really like the idea.

 

[Ned888]

As far as Siege is concerned ,people wanted a shard that was hard and resembled the way the game was intended in the begining.They got it. What they forgot is the lack of diversity .there is only difficult no care bear play.

I'm liking Siege, and mostly because basic commodities are necessities there. Normal leather and and chicken feathers; taming dogs and cutting logs; building fires and my funeral pyre!

It's all good on Siege! I actually am really enjoying it and the idea of the OP would work pretty well on that server.

Also, it's kind of care bear over on SP right now anyway, because I haven't run into a single other player in the last couple of days.... I'm not seeing Red or Blue.

 

[Trebr Drab]

If instead of getting different "levels" of resources (leather, spine leather...iron ore, shadow iron...etc.), if we instead got oils or minerals that get mixed/rubbed on/whatever...to the basic resource?

In other words, instead of getting leather, spined leather, etc., you get oils that are added to regular leather to give it the properties that we know now for spined leather. And instead of mining up shadow ore and just using that to make shadow ingots, we had to mix it with regular ore to get the shadow ingots.

The purpose here is to maintain the need for the basic materials. The reason for that is the stagnant economy that we see now.

Counter Question: How would your oils be different from the system currently in place?

I understand that you want to make use of the basic materials (i.e. - skins from hinds and great harts; basic logs, etc.), but I would challenge you to consider that these things ARE valuable right now and would be MORE valuable if two things happened:

1 - Items degraded faster and insurance was eliminated (go back to the starter equipment 'blessed' stuff).

2 - New players were around in game (they would need basic equipment).

Your idea is excellent and I think it would be an awesome addition to the Alchemy field (sort of a sub-skill). That being said, the fact remains that there is too much powerful stuff hoarded in the game that will never go away because it's too easy to repair (repair deeds), lasts way too long (125 durability takes forever to whittle down, especially if repaired) , and has no chance of being lost due to inexpensive insurance (you can literally insure every single thing in your backpack due to the amount of excess gold in game).

I'd like to hear more on your idea though. Would this work like a low level imbuing ability? Would an alchemist be able to create these oils and things, or would it be a whole new skill? I had considered something like this, but instead using the Tailors ability to Engrave Leather to add runes of power to suits of armor that they made. If you combined Tailoring with Inscription, you might be able to engrave a suite of armor with defensive spells.

*** The engraved armor would have charges, sort of like a rune book and once the charges were up, you would need to drag and drop scrolls onto the armor to recharge the runes. I kind of like the sound of that! ***

I do really like the idea.

The basic idea is simply to maintain need for basic materials, even when making higher end stuff. This allows a player with 80 mining skill to be a bigger part of the market, as well as make more gold because of higher prices through demand. And hunters and lumberjacks as well.

There's a lot of other things that could be done as well, to enhance this and make it more meaningful. But I don't want to get into that much depth, just too long of a trail to walk. UO's system has gone down the path of levels too far, and the economy is dying because of it. This would be a start to fixing that as far as spreading the money around more. And adding more could start to fix the entire system.

I like your idea with inscription very much. That would be one of the ways to start fixing things that I didn't want to go to at this point. Basically changing the system to make it work to bring everybody into the economy as a producer. Heck, most the economy these days is centered around buying and selling pixel crack, and that's not good.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

It wouldn't change anything though. Yes, you would have greater potential for "wood" and "iron ore," but part of the lack of market there is people tend to mine it themselves or have no real need for it in the first place.

The oils...

Would be in the same rarities as the existing ores and woods, so in effect, nothing would have changed. You'd have a base material, and then an oil that you'd need to get to make it say valorite. In order for the valorite paradigm to continue to be "important" (and with imbuing, let's face it, there's little of any rare resource that's important anymore), it would have to continue to be rare.

And, not to jump on the "realism" bandwagon, I simply think needing oils adds an extra step to a process that already makes sense as it is.

What I'd like to see them change is how mining and lumberjacking work in relation to the materials being sought after. And I'd also like to see the rarer materials play some part in imbuing so that their continued need would be there. Not sure in what manner, but then, that should have been considered when imbuing was implemented in the first place.

 

[Warpig Inc]

There was those that crafted for profit. Not a gold sink but a way to spread the wealth. Imbuing is part of the problem but moreso the lack of weapon and armor vendors is PoF.

Need to get players off the cookie cutter weapons and armor set and the plain fact that nothing wears out. Make anything with over 450 points brittle that is not an arty. And in a rare chance that repairing anything may have a fail that removes a mod.

Items spawned, enhanced or crafted above 500points has chance of tagged cursed.

GOLD SINKS: NPCs sell PoF for 100K (not like most will pay the 200k+ starting price for an imbued crafted item) but at least see some for sale on vendors.

Charge gold to remove curse from high end items that are tagged.

 

[Trebr Drab]

It wouldn't change anything though. Yes, you would have greater potential for "wood" and "iron ore," but part of the lack of market there is people tend to mine it themselves or have no real need for it in the first place.

The oils...

Would be in the same rarities as the existing ores and woods, so in effect, nothing would have changed. You'd have a base material, and then an oil that you'd need to get to make it say valorite. In order for the valorite paradigm to continue to be "important" (and with imbuing, let's face it, there's little of any rare resource that's important anymore), it would have to continue to be rare.

And, not to jump on the "realism" bandwagon, I simply think needing oils adds an extra step to a process that already makes sense as it is.

What I'd like to see them change is how mining and lumberjacking work in relation to the materials being sought after. And I'd also like to see the rarer materials play some part in imbuing so that their continued need would be there. Not sure in what manner, but then, that should have been considered when imbuing was implemented in the first place.

Ra'D, you and Ned888 are starting to go where I hoped this topic would lead. I didn't want to post a wall of text that quickly loses people, was hoping for this to come about.

First, oils would be for leathers and woods. Ores would be combined in a smelting process. Just to clear that up.

Second, yes, it doesn't do much with no other changes. But if there were some changes, then it does do something. The question is, what other changes.

For one, if mining ores that are better than iron ore was a setting, and you didn't get any iron ore type along with the rarer type, and if the success rate for that special ore stays the same, now we're reducing the harvest. Thus making ores in general, the amounts required to make things, in less quantity. Iron ore could have a reduced success rate also.

Adding resources as a requirement to repair items would be another boost to the need. And of course, removing insurance.
An alternative for insurance could be much higher rates, making it something people only do for their very best gear.

Also, if MOBs start looting again in a major way, and if they did something with the loot to destroy it after holding it for a while, that would give players a chance to get it back, but failing that the stuff gets removed. Perhaps a sacrifice to the Anti-Virtues or something.

It would also be a major help if the production process for an item took time. Making 100 swords in a matter of minutes just doesn't work well for a simulated economy. Perhaps the imbuing system needs to be changed not only to add rare metals and leathers into it, but to use the same system for all production of items? Needs more thought, no doubt.

Also, while we're at it, I'd like to suggest that if these sorts of changes are done, that something like Minecraft's system of boxes that you place materials in be added. What this allows is for experimentations to be tried, for a new discovery system.

Example:

Make a Verite Sword:

• First you need Iron Ore.
• Then you need to add Verite Ore to smelt all the ores into Verite Ingots.
• You place all the ores into the boxes in the gump to smelt.
• There are extra boxes, always one more pops up when you place items in them (or once all the boxes are filled). Here is where you can start experimenting. You could try adding Shadow Ore, or any others. Or you could try adding silver wire. Or you could try adding Sulphurous Ash. Or anything else. And the game could have surprises hidden in the outcome if you hit on something, a discovery (if you even realize what exactly you did right).
• Now you continue to make the sword. You place the ingots into the gump boxes, and make a sword.
  Again, you could place other things in extra boxes as a trial. Gold wire, Blackrock, whatever, and maybe make a discovery.
  
  Just a rough idea to throw out there.

 

[Mirt]

Treb its not a bad idea, but lets be honest how long before that system would turn into this one? I mean with all the online forms of communication how long would something stay a secret? Also do we really want to go back to the days where only the super lucky or super rich could have nice equipment?

 

[Ned888]

That's an excellent idea. Let me see if I understand what you are saying:

You would need basic ore AND the special ore to make a weapon right? In fact, you could add other things to get different results! That would be cool! I'm thinking for the reagents:

Sulphurous Ash - Adds Fire damage % to weapon
Garlic - Undead Slaying
Bloodmoss - Swing Speed Increase
Nightshade - Adds Poison damage % to weapon
Ginseng - Drain Health
Madrake Root - Increase Damage
Black Pearl - Explosion 10% on hit.
Spiders Silk - Nightvision or Mana Drain

That's not even counting the Necromantic reagents.... Excellent idea!

I'd like to see some other things for leatherworking and Woodworking Skills (Carpentry & Bowcraft/Fletching) too. I like your oils idea, and (of course ) I like my inscription/rune engraving idea. I would also like to see something else....

Tailoring:

Harnesses/Straps/Bracers/Add-ons made of leather that carry enchantments. Sort of like a sash; you can wear them with ANY armor at all and it would add the enchantment to the armor.

1. It would take the place of the cloak slot (like a quiver does) or Gloves for Bracers and Straps.
2. 3 Enhancments/Enchantments max.
3. Does not stack w/existing enhancements.
4. Enhancements cover resistances and increased stats.
5. Enchantments are spell abilities that are added to the item (probably via inscription or engraving with Mager or Necromancy depending).

Clarification on 'Straps' - These would be bands of leather that cover the hands and wrists sort of like what a boxer would wear, except that they would be made of leather. Imagine if a Wrestler got some enchanted straps that had Harm/Lightning/etc. on them! Wrestling could become a viable combat skill for damage!
Bowcraft/Fletching:

Combine with Inscription and Magery/Necromancy to add magical properties to bows, like adding lighting or fireball or harm to a bow that has charges that are recharged by dropping scrolls onto the weapon.

Carpentry:

Same thing as B/F except that it would apply to clubs and quarterstaffs. It would also work for defensive creations like shields; except using defensive spells. Adding Reactive Armor or Protection to a shield... Again recharging it with scrolls dropped onto the item.

This would work with many crafting skills too. Like I always say, improve what you have, don't add new stuff to the game. Use what you've got! All these skills are in place. All these effects are present, let's just get them to synergize in different and exciting ways!

Ned

P.S. - I like the wall of text! Just as long as it contains worthwhile information. Yours does!

 

[Trebr Drab]

Treb its not a bad idea, but lets be honest how long before that system would turn into this one? I mean with all the online forms of communication how long would something stay a secret? Also do we really want to go back to the days where only the super lucky or super rich could have nice equipment?

I'm not sure I see how this changes who has the nicest equipment. But I'll say this, as I have often in the past, I dearly wish that the nicest stuff wasn't that much better than the other stuff. I think that works too much like EQ and WoW, and separates the player base too much.

I'll also say, I wouldn't mind if the super lucky have the nicest equipment. I'd prefer that it be the smarter players (see my reply coming shortly to Ned). I can see the issue that would creep in as far as the super rich though. Still, my efforts here are to spread out the gold in game among the players better. Force the rich to spend more, at higher rates, for their resources, allow the rest to get some of that.

 

[Ned888]

Ooo! A Socialist! I like it!

I'm all for gold sinks and I think they need to be put in place sooner rather than later.

I'm also all for Luck! If you are lucky then you could also be unlucky and lose that nifty item that you found.

I'm NOT for these guys who buy equipment from the cheaters. I'm just not into that crap.

Player crafters should be able to make the pinnacle of equipment. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with equipment never wearing out, repair deeds and a host of other 'improvements' that destroyed the regulatory aspects of the game. The controls were turned off on a lot of things over the years and I don't think anyone has been willing or able to go back and fix them.

I firmly believe that a good player would understand if the community was approached and told that something detrimental was going to happen to EVERYONE for the good of the game and then it happened.... For instance:

1. Everybody's gold is going to be divided by 1000 on 10/31. No exceptions.
2. All item durability, game wide is going to be divided by 10 on 11/15. No exceptions.
3. New commodity deeds will be unavailable as of today (existing ones remain). No exceptions.
4. LRM is being divided by 50% on all equipment and items as of 10/31. No exceptions.
5. Luna bank will be closing as of 11/15. No exceptions.
6. Haven will be sunk and removed from the game as of 11/30. No exceptions.

The above list would make my bananas dance!

Especially if they followed my timeline!

 

[Trebr Drab]

That's an excellent idea. Let me see if I understand what you are saying:

You would need basic ore AND the special ore to make a weapon right? In fact, you could add other things to get different results! That would be cool! I'm thinking for the reagents:

Sulphurous Ash - Adds Fire damage % to weapon
Garlic - Undead Slaying
Bloodmoss - Swing Speed Increase
Nightshade - Adds Poison damage % to weapon
Ginseng - Drain Health
Madrake Root - Increase Damage
Black Pearl - Explosion 10% on hit.
Spiders Silk - Nightvision or Mana Drain

That's not even counting the Necromantic reagents.... Excellent idea!

I'd like to see some other things for leatherworking and Woodworking Skills (Carpentry & Bowcraft/Fletching) too. I like your oils idea, and (of course ) I like my inscription/rune engraving idea. I would also like to see something else....

Tailoring:

Harnesses/Straps/Bracers/Add-ons made of leather that carry enchantments. Sort of like a sash; you can wear them with ANY armor at all and it would add the enchantment to the armor.

1. It would take the place of the cloak slot (like a quiver does) or Gloves for Bracers and Straps.
2. 3 Enhancments/Enchantments max.
3. Does not stack w/existing enhancements.
4. Enhancements cover resistances and increased stats.
5. Enchantments are spell abilities that are added to the item (probably via inscription or engraving with Mager or Necromancy depending).

Clarification on 'Straps' - These would be bands of leather that cover the hands and wrists sort of like what a boxer would wear, except that they would be made of leather. Imagine if a Wrestler got some enchanted straps that had Harm/Lightning/etc. on them! Wrestling could become a viable combat skill for damage!
Bowcraft/Fletching:

Combine with Inscription and Magery/Necromancy to add magical properties to bows, like adding lighting or fireball or harm to a bow that has charges that are recharged by dropping scrolls onto the weapon.

Carpentry:

Same thing as B/F except that it would apply to clubs and quarterstaffs. It would also work for defensive creations like shields; except using defensive spells. Adding Reactive Armor or Protection to a shield... Again recharging it with scrolls dropped onto the item.

This would work with many crafting skills too. Like I always say, improve what you have, don't add new stuff to the game. Use what you've got! All these skills are in place. All these effects are present, let's just get them to synergize in different and exciting ways!

Ned

P.S. - I like the wall of text! Just as long as it contains worthwhile information. Yours does!

Ned, imagine this (and this goes to Mirt too).
You make a weapon just like you said. You chose to make a fire sword. Somewhere in the production you needed to add Sulphurous Ash, maybe in two places (ore/ingots and weapon).
But it doesn't do anything. Then you inscribe the words of power on the sword, "In Vas Flam". Still, the sword doesn't seem to do anything special.
Then, while equipped with the sword, you say those words, and the sword springs to life with flame and does extra fire damage.

There are lots of ways to hide magic properties for items in a system like this. That sword could also require Crystaline Blackrock, Deamon Blood, a Fire Ruby, and Essence of Singularity in one or both stages of production.

I also like your idea of straps. I brought this up way back when, that I thought they should add more slots especially for this sort of thing to be added as wearables over armor/clothing. Straps, fobs, emblazons, shoulder covers, etc.
But we still don't even have weapons at our sides or on our backs (except for quivers, which take up a slot that was already there).

Edit: And nae, I am a capitalist through and through. This economy in UO is dying, and no capitalist wants that.

 

[Ned888]

Ned, imagine this (and this goes to Mirt too).
You make a weapon just like you said. You chose to make a fire sword. Somewhere in the production you needed to add Sulphurous Ash, maybe in two places (ore/ingots and weapon).
But it doesn't do anything. Then you inscribe the words of power on the sword, "In Vas Flam". Still, the sword doesn't seem to do anything special.
Then, while equipped with the sword, you say those words, and the sword springs to life with flame and does extra fire damage.

There are lots of ways to hide magic properties for items in a system like this. That sword could also require Crystaline Blackrock, Deamon Blood, a Fire Ruby, and Essence of Singularity in one or both stages of production.

I also like your idea of straps. I brought this up way back when, that I thought they should add more slots especially for this sort of thing to be added as wearables over armor/clothing. Straps, fobs, emblazons, shoulder covers, etc.
But we still don't even have weapons at our sides or on our backs (except for quivers, which take up a slot that was already there).

Edit: And nae, I am a capitalist through and through. This economy in UO is dying, and no capitalist wants that.

Ooo! I like it! Hopefully someone else does too! Someone way more important than me!

I agree with Capitalism, which is why I personally believe that even Gold Farmers and Botters and all the other cheats would agree that there needs to be a crack down. It would get rid of the rookies and only the strong would survive.... I believe UO did something similar to this early on... to the thieves! Get 'er done!

 

[pgib]

The above list would make my bananas dance!

And those will be the only bananas dancing on the shards because everyone else will leave the game. No exceptions.

 

[Mirt]

A bit off topic but for those that hate Haven last time I saw it was slated to be destroyed with the "new player experience" that they keep talking about. Also Treb I am more in favor of allowing folks to get what they need in the game. I know that might weaken the crafters some, but most of what your talking about can be achieved with imbuing imo. Not that adding another level wouldn't be cool but it sounds like a lot of programming for customization that is already in the game.

 

[DarkScripture]

If instead of getting different "levels" of resources (leather, spine leather...iron ore, shadow iron...etc.), if we instead got oils or minerals that get mixed/rubbed on/whatever...to the basic resource?

In other words, instead of getting leather, spined leather, etc., you get oils that are added to regular leather to give it the properties that we know now for spined leather. And instead of mining up shadow ore and just using that to make shadow ingots, we had to mix it with regular ore to get the shadow ingots.

The purpose here is to maintain the need for the basic materials. The reason for that is the stagnant economy that we see now.

As far as the oils go they DO have that very thing. There are quest that gives those for metal . Found here Elixir of Metal Conversion - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia

 

[Ned888]

And those will be the only bananas dancing on the shards because everyone else will leave the game. No exceptions.

And that would be, because....

• You would have to actually get away from the bank and play the game?
• You would be inconvenienced by having to go out and replace your super awesome gear?
• You would need to support a local crafter/merchant to get your gear fixed or replaced?
• You would be using reagents again instead of ignoring them?
• You would go to your vendor and lower all your prices, because there would not be millions in excess gold laying around?
• You would recall more often from the farming spots, because you had to get more reagents or replace that worn out weapon?

I apologize if you don't agree, but all the things I posted on make perfect sense. They would bring the game back in line with where it needs to be. They would make it more attractive for a new player to get online and compete in the game. There would also be a need for crafters again to repair and replace equipment that as of now never disappears.

You got too comfortable, sir.

P.S. - I would really like LRM and LRC to disappear completely, but I left that in there, just at a lower, more sensible rate....

 

[Kayne]

1. Everybody's gold is going to be divided by 1000 on 10/31. No exceptions.
2. All item durability, game wide is going to be divided by 10 on 11/15. No exceptions.
3. New commodity deeds will be unavailable as of today (existing ones remain). No exceptions.
4. LRM is being divided by 50% on all equipment and items as of 10/31. No exceptions.
5. Luna bank will be closing as of 11/15. No exceptions.
6. Haven will be sunk and removed from the game as of 11/30. No exceptions.

Always been a haven dweller. Was there with many others on Europa the night they took the shard down to destroy it and replace it. No getting rid of haven entirely!!

No dividing my gold by 1000. I would have almost 0 gold.

Commodity deeds are useful. No getting rid

Yes repairing should require a small amount of resources to be done. Perhaps half of the original material cost or maybe just a quarter to not be too expensive.

 

[pgib]

And that would be, because....

Because you think of improvements as taking away stuff from players and that doesn't work very well with human beings. You should think of a way to achieve the same goal but adding things to the game.

 

[Ned888]

Always been a haven dweller. Was there with many others on Europa the night they took the shard down to destroy it and replace it. No getting rid of haven entirely!!

No dividing my gold by 1000. I would have almost 0 gold.

Commodity deeds are useful. No getting rid

Yes repairing should require a small amount of resources to be done. Perhaps half of the original material cost or maybe just a quarter to not be too expensive.

Commodity deeds are a vehicle that make cheating possible. You can literally convert an enormous volume of any item into a piece of paper. This removes a basic control in the game (gathering material is designed to slow down skill gain) and allows for the easy transport and exchange of items.... I personally feel that they are a basic problem with the current game. Of course they are useful, but are they hurting the game?

I like the idea of using resources to repair things, not just the kits. Good idea!

Haven makes it too easy to avoid the rest of the world. Haven is the city of Noobs, just like Britain is the City of Bards and Moonglow is the City of Mages. If they don't get rid of it, then they should alter it so it's not the starter zone and remove all the weird crap from it, for instance the Necromancers Pyramid and the Samurai Sanctuary building. Those are just strange.

You can have my gold (Seriously, I'll get more). If there is less gold in the game, then things will be cheaper due to instant deflation. Besides, the monsters would still have gold. Go get some! Craft something and sell it! The idea is that without massive quantities of gold, people will actually start to value it again and basic necessities will suddenly become a much more attractive and available option. I mean really, imagine if 2k gold was a lot! It used to be and it could be again.

The game is about adventure; it is not about wealth and it is not about quantities of junk. I challenge everyone to adjust their thinking on this! It'd make the game better! I've said it before and I'll say it again: You don't own your stuff, your stuff owns you.

 

[Kayne]

Commodity deeds are a vehicle that make cheating possible. You can literally convert an enormous volume of any item into a piece of paper. This removes a basic control in the game (gathering material is designed to slow down skill gain) and allows for the easy transport and exchange of items.... I personally feel that they are a basic problem with the current game. Of course they are useful, but are they hurting the game?

I like the idea of using resources to repair things, not just the kits. Good idea!

Haven makes it too easy to avoid the rest of the world. Haven is the city of Noobs, just like Britain is the City of Bards and Moonglow is the City of Mages. If they don't get rid of it, then they should alter it so it's not the starter zone and remove all the weird crap from it, for instance the Necromancers Pyramid and the Samurai Sanctuary building. Those are just strange.

You can have my gold (Seriously, I'll get more). If there is less gold in the game, then things will be cheaper due to instant deflation. Besides, the monsters would still have gold. Go get some! Craft something and sell it! The idea is that without massive quantities of gold, people will actually start to value it again and basic necessities will suddenly become a much more attractive and available option. I mean really, imagine if 2k gold was a lot! It used to be and it could be again.

The game is about adventure; it is not about wealth and it is not about quantities of junk. I challenge everyone to adjust their thinking on this! It'd make the game better! I've said it before and I'll say it again: You don't own your stuff, your stuff owns you.

In general the commodity deeds I've used were to get the damn materials from either my bank to home or just to manage the storage. I mine/Lumberjack all my own stuff. I buy the regs I used to GM alchemy and inscription.

Perhaps it being the city of noobs is the very reason I always go there instead of any other town....

If I can have all your gold can you bring it to Europa plz?

Fully agree its about adventuring not wealth again this may be why I am continually poor. I do have a fair amount of junk but I don't necessarily collect stuff I just seem to accumulate