Change to "Murder" status needed?

[Viper09]

A thought that I've had for a while and wonder what others think:

As years go by in UO the whole idea of murder counts just starts to seem more and more ridiculous. Fel is basically a PvP facet now and there are not really many innocents that get "pked" anymore. Most players who hand out counts now days are simply blue pvpers who get attacked first. Those who do not wish to encounter non-consensual PvP have several facets to choose from without having to pick fel.

Now I know that there are some who live and/or play in fel who don't PvP but in general it is not really significant.

In a nutshell, I think the murder system should just be removed or just only be active in fel. No more restricting "pks" to fel and allow access into all other facets. It just doesn't make any sense with how UO is progressing now.

*No, I'm not saying open up PvP to other facets*

 

[gunneroforgin]

ibtl
I think I speak for all of us when I say HUH!?( buffy the vampire slayer)

 

[Viper09]

ibtl
I think I speak for all of us when I say HUH!?( buffy the vampire slayer)

Don't know why you think this should be locked, lmao. But perhaps you'd like to expand and actually give some constructive feedback?

 

[aarons6]

i agree.. pvp is stupid, its just ganking, RKing, guard whacking, and counting people who are there to actually fight..

i think if murder counts arent done away with they should just allow reds full access to all facets and NPCs. its not like you can attack anyone in tram anyway.

 

[Wizal the Fox]

You seem to be completely in your logic of Fel beeing a PvP-only facet. Then push it to the logical conclusion of having the champs and their drops in Tram and count the numbers of people in Fel after that

 

[Viper09]

You seem to be completely in your logic of Fel beeing a PvP-only facet. Then push it to the logical conclusion of having the champs and their drops in Tram and count the numbers of people in Fel after that

Never said it was a pvp-only facet nor did I say anything about champ spawns, drops in tram or count the number of people in fel. No offense at all intended but due to the amount inaccurate references you are making I have to ask; are you in the wrong thread? lol

Now since the only related thing to brought up in your reply was about fel in PvP I will explain again. I said Fel is essentially a pvp facet. I brought that up because fel is the only place where you can PvP. I will end with that and simply ask that you re-read the initial post.

 

[Viper09]

i agree.. pvp is stupid, its just ganking, RKing, guard whacking, and counting people who are there to actually fight..

i think if murder counts arent done away with they should just allow reds full access to all facets and NPCs. its not like you can attack anyone in tram anyway.

Pretty much how I have always seen it in fel. Aside from the pvp being stupid part, can be pretty fun sometimes. Most counts are coming straight from the people who are there to fight who simply got attacked first.

 

[Wizal the Fox]

Never said it was a pvp-only facet nor did I say anything about champ spawns, drops in tram or count the number of people in fel. No offense at all intended but due to the amount inaccurate references you are making I have to ask; are you in the wrong thread? lol

Now since the only related thing to brought up in your reply was about fel in PvP I will explain again. I said Fel is essentially a pvp facet. I brought that up because fel is the only place where you can PvP. I will end with that and simply ask that you re-read the initial post.

I am not in the wrong thread and if I made references from things you have said in other threads without explicitly quoting them I apologize.

The fact remains that basically you are asking to decrease the only already way to small penalty that PKs have (murder counts), and you justify this by saying that people who go to Fel are essentially just going for PvP anyway. As you know I don't agree at all with this initial assumption, but IF you want to stay logical with yourself you would have to provide a way for those who don't go to Fel only for pure PvPing (which you think are a minority) to be able to do the same champs/get the same drops in Tram.

 

[aarons6]

I am not in the wrong thread and if I made references from things you have said in other threads without explicitly quoting them I apologize.

The fact remains that basically you are asking to decrease the only already way to small penalty that PKs have (murder counts), and you justify this by saying that people who go to Fel are essentially just going for PvP anyway. As you know I don't agree at all with this initial assumption, but IF you want to stay logical with yourself you would have to provide a way for those who don't go to Fel only for pure PvPing (which you think are a minority) to be able to do the same champs/get the same drops in Tram.

you're assuming that everyone that is red and has multiple murder counts is a PK.. yet i have YET to run into a PK on my shard..

i can run around FEL for hours and never ONE time run into a player that will attack me on sight.

being red is stupid. its a dead "penalty", and its largely one sided as once you turn red you cant count people who attack you.

the only reason my pvp char turns red is because i get raided in a champ by people that give muder counts when i kill them... they are there to fight me.. has nothing to do with PKing..

its not uncommon to get 10-20 counts a day just pvping consensually.

 

[Viper09]

I am not in the wrong thread and if I made references from things you have said in other threads without explicitly quoting them I apologize.

The fact remains that basically you are asking to decrease the only already way to small penalty that PKs have (murder counts), and you justify this by saying that people who go to Fel are essentially just going for PvP anyway. As you know I don't agree at all with this initial assumption, but IF you want to stay logical with yourself you would have to provide a way for those who don't go to Fel only for pure PvPing (which you think are a minority) to be able to do the same champs/get the same drops in Tram.

What I say in other threads are most likely under a different context are have nothing to do with this subject. But I have no problem with champ spawns in trammel. Naturally I can't provide that though, it is not within my power, lol.

But would you say that when you go to fel, avoiding areas where pvp takes place, you usually encounter a pk and find yourself being killed by them? Usual back in the day but now? The only pks I see are taking part in battles "pking" blues who are also part of the fighting. Seems pointless to be penalized over killing someone in a fight.

It would be perfect if everyone who wanted to pvp would just join factions to fight but that's just not how it works. Some would just rather fight as a blue.

 

[Lady Storm]

Well ....

I live in fel on most shards, not that i dont have homes in tram mind you but some of us who were made in fel back at the beginning would feel adverse to your claim that fel is for pvp only and the rest of us should get out. I know that is not exactly your point but it makes it Sound like it. Hence the ruckus with others. I dont bother any who are in fel doing their pvp. I tend to do my play and keep my nose out of the kids fun. Its not my cup of tea any more. I'd like to know I wont be a target one of some player with a pvp chip on his shoulder and think i am up for fun and games... that said I do understand your thoughts thou.

I have always gone with the theory that many of the present players think that Fel is the pvp play ground and no "trammie" is allowed throught the gate... Far from it.

I'd like to see a way that if you want to pvp you would be marked in some way as such and then normal activitys for the rest of us could be done in relitive safety of being taged a pvp target. Not to take from pks, though i dont think they are quite dead... but if say a tag on the name in Fel was visable meant they were in pvp mode and up for play would go along way to make fellow feluccians happy to walkthe towns again.

 

[Viper09]

No I am not trying to say fel is only for pvp and others should get out. In fact I tried to avoid this generalization but simpling acknowledging that there are non-pvpers living there. In fact I am one. A pvp thief but I don't engage in combat often. A tag or flag for pvp on or off might have worked as an alternative for trammel. Not sure it would be too well received now though.

 

[Wizal the Fox]

But would you say that when you go to fel, avoiding areas where pvp takes place, you usually encounter a pk and find yourself being killed by them?

Let's be realistic, when you go to any place other than champ spawns in Fel, you just don't encounter anyone, blue or red, at least on my shard. And I know very well because of course I go to Fel when I need to farm something, precisely because there is no one else.

Now of course, the situation is entirely different where you go to champ spawns, and ANY of them, even the most obscure T2A one. There you frequently encounter reds scouting and if by any chance you actually work the spawn up to the champ you will be raided every single time. Now of course there are ways to avoid this fate, like not going there during week-ends and peak hours. Fortunately most PKs don't attack alone and they have troubles bringing their guildmates at 6am on a weekday, but it sad to have to resort to such schedules.

Now if only killing them would make a difference (like locking them out of Champ zones or anything really that would force them to loose somehow as many hours as the blues who work the spawn only to be raided), perhaps more people would actually give it a try, but as it stands the only way to really win vs a PK is to avoid him, not kill him.

 

[hen]

I live in fel. I play mostly in fel. I have a player tavern in fel.

From a personal point of view, removal of murder counts would not be the way forward for the facet. I feel it would eventually lead to fel becoming more desolate than it already is.

I do however understand that players with other playstyles have concerns about the system as it stands.

 

[Viper09]

And of course.

​

Champ spawns are a pvp zone, which is why I don't oppose them in trammel. But we can leave that for another thread. Restriction only to fel though for counts that now days are mostly acquired through consensual pvp though doesn't make much sense anymore though. Especially since all new facets are tram rule-set.

 

[Viper09]

I live in fel. I play mostly in fel. I have a player tavern in fel.

From a personal point of view, removal of murder counts would not be the way forward for the facet. I feel it would eventually lead to fel becoming more desolate than it already is.

I do however understand that players with other playstyles have concerns about the system as it stands.

I can see that point about making it more desolate however it will probably remain the only place to pvp and since most pks pvp they will probably keep coming back. Now if pvp were open to other facets that would be a different story. However unlikely it may be, lol.

 

[aarons6]

I live in fel. I play mostly in fel. I have a player tavern in fel.

From a personal point of view, removal of murder counts would not be the way forward for the facet. I feel it would eventually lead to fel becoming more desolate than it already is.

I do however understand that players with other playstyles have concerns about the system as it stands.

i dont see how it would hurt, murder counts are useless.. they dont KEEP you from being attacked... if you cant handle the heat stay out of the kitchen.. you dont have to PVP but, if you are in fel in say a champ spawn zone you SHOULD be open to ATTACK without PENALTY.

FEL is not a safe place, as it shouldnt be..

i think murder counts AND guard zones should be taken out of fel.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

While I oppose your proposal, I want to start not with my opposition, but with a point where we....If not agree, but where our arguments correlate.

I have long-argued that the number of innocents in Felucca is low enough that you can't safely assume any blue you see isn't a plant at worst and a scout at best. (I say this despite the fact that I'm one of the few blues you see in Fel who is actually neither.)

However, I must point out that when I make this very argument I am insulted and derided and called a Trammie and told I don't know anything.

I therefore have to assume that exactly the same thing will happen to you, as clearly what's said about me has nothing to do with the fact that it's me and everything to do with the nature of the argument I make.

So, Viper, just a warning to be prepared for what I assume is an incoming onslaught of insults.

Having gotten that out of the way, I oppose your proposal for the following reasons.


1. My fear's always been that allowing reds into the Trammel rules facets will only make the griefing problem worse.

I have no reason to think that allowing reds into Trammel will somehow reverse two tendencies I have oft-noted. One is that players generally behave worse on their reds than on their blues (perhaps knowing that behavior standards are low, perhaps figuring that paging a GM in Fel is by definition not really an option, they'll just tell you to attack). Two is the once-common (and I think still comparatively so) practice of having at least two UO accounts, one "clean" and one "dirty." Historically you've put your red on your "dirty" account, perhaps because cheating's more a PvP practice than a PvM practice (if you don't believe me, just look at the message boards and listen to Global Chat: I'm right if only half of what the Fellies say about one another is correct only half of the time), or perhaps out of recognition that player-killing is basically a form of griefing that's allowed by the mechanics of the game.

Now I've seen people behave rather badly in Trammel as it is on what is presumably their "clean" account. Fellies near-constantly grief every EM event on GL, to the point where sometimes it's hard to carry out the event, using blue characters without guild tags showing. Now imagine if they could bring their reds to Trammel.


2. There should, I argue, still be some punishment for player-killing. Even if the number of innocent (defined in this context as non-PvP affiliated) blues in Fel is low, it's high enough (remember, we've been given numerous incentives over the years to engage in a playstyle that most players don't wish to engage in) to warrant some punishment for player-killing. Despite the fact that Fellies constantly deride Trammel and declare their lack of interest in it, clearly they are interested enough in coming to Trammel that they occasionally spam the boards asking to bring their reds there. Therefore I have to assume that all that talk about not having any interest in it is something of a fib, and that therefore preventing their from doing so is indeed an appropriate punishment.

Really the last significant punishment there is with no stat loss, skill loss confined to Factions, and let's face it: Losing the Virtue system isn't really a punishment as the Virtue system is a pain in the ass to maintain, so it's really more being freed from a burden, not a meaningful punishment in the slightest.

In other words, the fact that this is asked for almost by definition means that it should not happen.


3. Slippery slope. At the end of the day, this proposal can have little logical purpose except as a step towards open PvP. As open PvP nearly killed the game once, it will do so again if re-enacted.


4. Finally, I return to the central paradox of these proposals.....Why would someone want to come to a place they openly profess to hate, despise, and have no interest in?

The only logical answer I can think of is to grief it. And hence we wind our way back to 1.


A proposal sure to be more popular in-game, not on Stratics but with actual players, is to remove Fel and reds entirely from the game.

-Galen's player

 

[aarons6]

While I oppose your proposal, I want to start not with my opposition, but with a point where we....If not agree, but where our arguments correlate.

I have long-argued that the number of innocents in Felucca is low enough that you can't safely assume any blue you see isn't a plant at worst and a scout at best. (I say this despite the fact that I'm one of the few blues you see in Fel who is actually neither.)

However, I must point out that when I make this very argument I am insulted and derided and called a Trammie and told I don't know anything.

I therefore have to assume that exactly the same thing will happen to you, as clearly what's said about me has nothing to do with the fact that it's me and everything to do with the nature of the argument I make.

So, Viper, just a warning to be prepared for what I assume is an incoming onslaught of insults.

Having gotten that out of the way, I oppose your proposal for the following reasons.


1. My fear's always been that allowing reds into the Trammel rules facets will only make the griefing problem worse.

I have no reason to think that allowing reds into Trammel will somehow reverse two tendencies I have oft-noted. One is that players generally behave worse on their reds than on their blues (perhaps knowing that behavior standards are low, perhaps figuring that paging a GM in Fel is by definition not really an option, they'll just tell you to attack). Two is the once-common (and I think still comparatively so) practice of having at least two UO accounts, one "clean" and one "dirty." Historically you've put your red on your "dirty" account, perhaps because cheating's more a PvP practice than a PvM practice (if you don't believe me, just look at the message boards and listen to Global Chat: I'm right if only half of what the Fellies say about one another is correct only half of the time), or perhaps out of recognition that player-killing is basically a form of griefing that's allowed by the mechanics of the game.

Now I've seen people behave rather badly in Trammel as it is on what is presumably their "clean" account. Fellies near-constantly grief every EM event on GL, to the point where sometimes it's hard to carry out the event, using blue characters without guild tags showing. Now imagine if they could bring their reds to Trammel.


2. There should, I argue, still be some punishment for player-killing. Even if the number of innocent (defined in this context as non-PvP affiliated) blues in Fel is low, it's high enough (remember, we've been given numerous incentives over the years to engage in a playstyle that most players don't wish to engage in) to warrant some punishment for player-killing. Despite the fact that Fellies constantly deride Trammel and declare their lack of interest in it, clearly they are interested enough in coming to Trammel that they occasionally spam the boards asking to bring their reds there. Therefore I have to assume that all that talk about not having any interest in it is something of a fib, and that therefore preventing their from doing so is indeed an appropriate punishment.

Really the last significant punishment there is with no stat loss, skill loss confined to Factions, and let's face it: Losing the Virtue system isn't really a punishment as the Virtue system is a pain in the ass to maintain, so it's really more being freed from a burden, not a meaningful punishment in the slightest.

In other words, the fact that this is asked for almost by definition means that it should not happen.


3. Slippery slope. At the end of the day, this proposal can have little logical purpose except as a step towards open PvP. As open PvP nearly killed the game once, it will do so again if re-enacted.


4. Finally, I return to the central paradox of these proposals.....Why would someone want to come to a place they openly profess to hate, despise, and have no interest in?

The only logical answer I can think of is to grief it. And hence we wind our way back to 1.


A proposal sure to be more popular in-game, not on Stratics but with actual players, is to remove Fel and reds entirely from the game.

-Galen's player

this whole argument is based off the fact that "player killing" is non mutual combat.. witch is incorrect..

players in FEL are there for very few reasons..

if you see someone just 'hanging' out in fel they are there for a purpose. just not hanging out.

as you open with your "argument" that
"the number of innocents in Felucca is low enough that you can't safely assume any blue you see isn't a plant at worst and a scout at best."


i would say that any blue just hanging out at a champ spawn or yew gate would probably bust your observation.. they seem to be there to either attack reds, or give murder counts if you attack them.. they dont join factions so they can be attacked.


going on to your number 2..

player killing.. lets just assume that a random lost blue char is running around some champ spawn location and is there for the handsome scenery..

he didnt get there by accident.

you cant recall into champ spawns.. so he had to walk all the way there.

upon entering this champ spawn location.. maybe for the stupid there can be an on screen warning? do not enter champ spawn location for it is considered a pvp area??

there is such a warning when you enter the abyssal inferno and prime evil champ spawns

now lets talk about this so-called punishment..

as a champ spawn doer, heh.. I am the one being punished for said stupid people (trammelites?) that enter said PVP AREAS without understanding that people raid or defend such places? once again they arent there by accident. in tram yes its ok to jump spawns or bully your way into someones area they are working.. with very little anyone can do.. but in fel you get to kill them.. why should you get punished for that?

now moving on to reds in tram..

so you see a red named character.. you cant attack or be attacked.. is most likely played by the same guy you know who all his other characters are..

the servers all small enough where everyone knows everyone..

i do not see a huge deal.. or any problems at all with this....

 

[Wizal the Fox]

Oh common, stop with the "If blue are in champ areas it's to PvP" bs. You perfectly know most blues at champs are there only to get the drops from the champs, which they can't get in Tram or you wouldn't see them in Fel at all!

 

[aarons6]

Oh common, stop with the "If blue are in champ areas it's to PvP" bs. You perfectly know most blues at champs are there only to get the drops from the champs, which they can't get in Tram or you wouldn't see them in Fel at all!

its kinda the only thing the devs did right..

the new devs should have made the entire abyss fel rules.. not just those 2 champ areas.

i dont know how many times i go down there to do the demons or the dragon and have someone step in at the last minute to wod the renowned one time get loot rights and recall out, perhaps getting the drop.

the abyss should be a no recall zone and fel rules.



fel gets champ spawns, deal with it.. and expect to pvp if you go down there.

 

[Wizal the Fox]

its kinda the only thing the devs did right..

the new devs should have made the entire abyss fel rules.. not just those 2 champ areas.

i dont know how many times i go down there to do the demons or the dragon and have someone step in at the last minute to wod the renowned one time get loot rights and recall out, perhaps getting the drop.

the abyss should be a no recall zone and fel rules.



fel gets champ spawns, deal with it.. and expect to pvp if you go down there.

Sure there are griefers in Tram, but the situation you describe happens WAY less often than beeing killed at a champ in Fel after having worked all the spawn. And don't tell me that in Fel you can retaliate because there is nothing you can do: even if you manage to kill the reds (while fighting the mobs at the same time), they just come back over and over.

That beeing said, I have nothing against the fact that there are mobs and drops you can only have in Fel, what I don't like is the total lack of penalties the PKs have. And it's even worse now with the Focused Mages who not only have the free skillpoints but also got twice the SDI you have when you have PvM skills such as Spellweaving or Bardic Abilities.

 

[clarkifer]

simple.... Fel is Fel... Hence the reason we have it... If you come to Fel, you're gonna run into a group that might or might not kill you... don't like getting killed by people, don't come to the facet. If you don't mind getting killed, whats the worst that can happen? Spent 3 minutes looking for a healer?

 

[DeadRed]

simple.... Fel is Fel... Hence the reason we have it... If you come to Fel, you're gonna run into a group that might or might not kill you... don't like getting killed by people, don't come to the facet. If you don't mind getting killed, whats the worst that can happen? Spent 3 minutes looking for a healer?

Couldn't agree more. Tram was created to stop the screaming for a place where RP ers could be left alone to do their thing. If you let me (I am a red based PK player), I'd have a field day so to speak. I'd spend hours searching out innocents since on my shard BAJA the only blues we see to kill are rare and the occassional spawn.

I like my counts. Its not important but its something we laugh about. So removing the counts would have no affect. I think that fel should have NO guardzones at all though.

What is the reason you think reds or murderers as you say should be allowed in all facets? I as a red disagree. We'd be getting GM's called on us every 5 seconds. Rules in Fel are for pks, leave tram alone.

 

[clarkifer]

simple.... Fel is Fel... Hence the reason we have it... If you come to Fel, you're gonna run into a group that might or might not kill you... don't like getting killed by people, don't come to the facet. If you don't mind getting killed, whats the worst that can happen? Spent 3 minutes looking for a healer?

Couldn't agree more. Tram was created to stop the screaming for a place where RP ers could be left alone to do their thing. If you let me (I am a red based PK player), I'd have a field day so to speak. I'd spend hours searching out innocents since on my shard BAJA the only blues we see to kill are rare and the occassional spawn.

I like my counts. Its not important but its something we laugh about. So removing the counts would have no affect. I think that fel should have NO guardzones at all though.

What is the reason you think reds or murderers as you say should be allowed in all facets? I as a red disagree. We'd be getting GM's called on us every 5 seconds. Rules in Fel are for pks, leave tram alone.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS!!!!!

 

[G.v.P]

A proposal sure to be more popular in-game, not on Stratics but with actual players, is to remove Fel and reds entirely from the game.

Not sure how removing Fel and reds would be more popular, lol. Was with you in your logic up until your last paragraph, which reads as a troll.

I had a red I wanted to use in Trammel, so I spent about a year (3,840 real life hours) to turn him blue. Now he's blue. My point is, if someone wants to use a char in Trammel, they'd just do it. Being red is a choice, turning blue is a choice.

I'd argue this game needs more structure, not less. And it's a bit easier now, with the deeds you can get from T-Maps ;P...so I don't know how hard it would be now but my guess is not that hard.

 

[Picus at the office]

Removal of Fel with it's ups and downs would crush the limited end game that UO has. I'd care a less if a red char could go to tram as most pvp players have one or two reds per shard they play and 4 + blues to use in tram.

There would be no additional level's of grief from these evil red chars, I'd bet you would see less grief if tram was a fel based rule set. PvP'rs are only there to fight each other, trash talk and have a good time but we don't care if you are killing a dragon. Raiding and stuff is just part of the game and, IMO, add's the only final content that we have.

If anything pardons added the worst content this game has had in ages. At the very least a murdering char did just that but now we have piles of people who sit at four counts eating pardons and guard wacking when possible. There is no justice for those types but a ton of bottom feeding weak pansies.

 

[Lady CaT]

A thought that I've had for a while and wonder what others think:

... Those who do not wish to encounter non-consensual PvP have several facets to choose from without having to pick fel.

I did, I chose trammel where no PKers are allowed to enter.

... No more restricting "pks" to fel and allow access into all other facets.

Exactly why do PKs suddenly need access back to a facet other people chose to exclude them from?

 

[Vlaude]

Blue players are commonly used by PK guilds as proxy spawn hijackers. This only works if the players originally working the spawn do not want to take counts in order to save their spawn. I've been on both ends here, having a spawn hijacked by blue players and using a blue player to hijack a spawn. That said, I find the OP's argument about all other facets open to players who don't want to PvP (except Siege and Mugen) rather compelling. I like the idea of Fel being an "all in or all out" type of facet to this extreme.

However you also have to consider the fallout of this. Factions would (in their immediate state) become less appealing (which overall, I am against this because I think factions should ideally be the main nexus of PvP). I would rather see a faction revamp and PvP'ers going to that. But if the OP's idea were the only real option, I'd be for it.

 

[Shiznit Bo'Bourbon]

1. [...]Fellies near-constantly grief every EM event on GL, to the point where sometimes it's hard to carry out the event, using blue characters without guild tags showing. Now imagine if they could bring their reds to Trammel.

Uh... they would do the exact same thing, only the text over their heads would be red. (Assuming the game didn't just scrap red status entirely anyway.) The idea that these idiots have been holding back just because the text over their heads was blue, but would go all-out if it were red, and that this is a legitimate design concern, is ridiculous.

2. There should, I argue, still be some punishment for player-killing. Even if the number of innocent (defined in this context as non-PvP affiliated) blues in Fel is low, it's high enough (remember, we've been given numerous incentives over the years to engage in a playstyle that most players don't wish to engage in) to warrant some punishment for player-killing.

Except it's really not. Those incentives have all failed and we all know it. The idea of someone being out doing non-PVP related activities in Felucca when suddenly mean PKs ride over the hill and kill them has been nothing but a fantasy for like 10+ years now. The number of non-PVPers in Felucca has dropped well below the point where they merit design consideration. Hell the number of PVPers, of people period, in Felucca probably don't merit as much design consideration as they get at this point, but that's a different kettle of fish.

3. Slippery slope. At the end of the day, this proposal can have little logical purpose except as a step towards open PvP. As open PvP nearly killed the game once, it will do so again if re-enacted.

This is nonsense and the "slippery slope" is regarded as a logical fallacy for a reason. I don't PVP a lick and even I can see that having "murder counts" (as if Felucca has a viable general non-PVP population that needs to be protected from murder) is ridiculous.

4. Finally, I return to the central paradox of these proposals.....Why would someone want to come to a place they openly profess to hate, despise, and have no interest in?

They're already there on their blue characters crapping up your EM events anyway, so who cares?

 

[phantus]

The answer is yes. Change does need to happen. It needs to be a new system that promotes PvP and not PvPvM like it does now. I won't argue with those that cannot leave the past behind them though and I wouldn't expect you(OP) to either.

 

[Basara]

MY personal ideas for a PvP revamp would be as follows:

1. Turn all current murder counts into "legacy counts"; They can only be worked off if you have no counts active after the changeover. Everyone starts over at 0 counts, but if your "legacy count" number is greater than 50, you are a gray instead of a Blue (but can't have guards called on you unless you do something like snooping or stealing)
Active counts turn into legacy counts at a rate of 1 per 24 hours of game time, but only game time spent alive, while outside guard zones and houses, counts (and getting new counts does not affect the timer, so you get rewarded for game play, not sitting at a moongate hidden).
2. Turn PvP into a toggle, which can only be switched after a server maintenance (scheduled or publish - restart from a crash backup would not count). it Defaults to PvP off, unless currently red or gray.
3. In the new system, it would take 10 active counts to turn red. Each 10 active counts (rounded down) result in a 1% chance of the character permanently dying if they've had a NEW count added in the last hour (in other words, you can PvP to your heart's content, as long as you haven't been counted recently, without fear of perma-death).
4. Only Blues with PvP toggled can issue counts, only once on each target per day, and doing so counts as a form of count for them that lasts until server maintenance (so, if they count 10 people in one day, they lose their blue status until server maintenance (and be unable to issue more counts), and have a 1% perma-death chance of their own!). You know what happens to people who talk too much....
5. If a character perma-dies, his or her name will go onto a monument in his faction. If not faction, then the name goes onto a monument recording vile criminals.
6. All blessed items will come off the perma-dead corpse and be deposited into the bank of the next character to occupy that character slot. Everything else becomes uninsured and lootable.

 

[clarkifer]

All this toggle talk..... war mode/none war mode..... Idea already in game!
asking a player if they want to pvp before hitting= WoW cr**
ever heard the saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".....

 

[gunneroforgin]

I did, I chose trammel where no PKers are allowed to enter.


Exactly why do PKs suddenly need access back to a facet other people chose to exclude them from?

The reason is the reds are always complaining and demanding fresh people to kill because so few blues actually venture in to Fel. It seems as though they get tired of killing each other and the blues who commonly venture there all the time.

 

[gunneroforgin]

Don't know why you think this should be locked, lmao. But perhaps you'd like to expand and actually give some constructive feedback?

The reason I answered this thread the way I did, is it sounded like like a troll to me. Most of the other Fell vs tramm posts get locked. The reason Tram was created was because of the demand for a choice to PVP or not and allowing for reds into Tram would be counter productive. The reason reds were prevented from coming to Tram and having murder counts was in punishment for their playstyle.

 

[Viper09]

The reason I answered this thread the way I did, is it sounded like like a troll to me. Most of the other Fell vs tramm posts get locked. The reason Tram was created was because of the demand for a choice to PVP or not and allowing for reds into Tram would be counter productive. The reason reds were prevented from coming to Tram and having murder counts was in punishment for their playstyle.

This isn't a tram vrs fel post. Why should you automatically assume that when someone wishes to bring up a topic of murder status? I don't see why it should be punishable to PvP by restricting them to one facet out of what, six?

I did, I chose trammel where no PKers are allowed to enter.


Exactly why do PKs suddenly need access back to a facet other people chose to exclude them from?

Would you notice a PK who enters tram? Unless you know them well I would think the answer is no (going off the idea that a red entering tram would turn blue, red upon entering fel again). There is no PvP in tram facets so they would be just another person, nothing special. Seems irrational to ban someone to fel for pvping with others who stay blue.



The only real way to become a murder now days is to be able to pvp. When I see a pk my first thought isn't, "oh no, he's a murder," I think, "he must be good a pvp, I probably wont stand a chance unless I am good." I guess you could spend hours upon hours, day after day, week after week trying to find an actual innocent in fel to kill and then do it four more times.

And that's basically how I see the murder status evolving. It appears to be nothing more than a pvp status.

 

[Viper09]

...
-Galen's player

*didn't feel like having the entire quote enlarging the post*

Believing that people will tend to act worse on their reds is an interesting thought. Not sure whether or not I agree as some reds are not really all that rude at all. However I don't believe that they will make griefing problems worse. General chat is always full of nonsense and you can't just assume those horrible griefers are pks on their clean accounts. We all know that the average tram player can be just as rude as the average fel player.

I don't see this as a slipper-slope though and this is definitely not a move to open pvp. Allowing reds access to trammel doesn't mean they can go around killing people in other facets (aside from guild wars). We all know pvp will not be open to other facets so no point in imagining this is a step that direction.

I think though that it is an inaccurate generalization to say all pvpers openly hate all other facets.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

*didn't feel like having the entire quote enlarging the post*

Believing that people will tend to act worse on their reds is an interesting thought. Not sure whether or not I agree as some reds are not really all that rude at all.

Trammel isn't a competition. Felucca is. Who has an incentive to treat Trammel as a competition? People who are used to competing.

We all know that the average tram player can be just as rude as the average fel player.

Not in my experience. This is often said and we Trammel players are kind of supposed to sign onto it because it's nicer. Which, paradoxically, is a symptom of the same problem.

In UO being rude means one of several things. (This list is not exhaustive.) One is of course that someone is just an ass and will be no matter what facet they primarily play in. Two, however, is that it is an extension of message board warrior-ing. Part of being competitive. Part of attempting to "win" and part of attempting to claim victory (which, let's face it, is often even more important than actually winning).

And message board warrior-ing is often called message board PvP. I have never known it to be called message board PvM, however.

"Winning" in Trammel consists of overcoming objectively defined obstacles. "Winning" in Feluccay by contrast consists of overcoming other players. This is not objective; if they suck, you can suck too and still beat them. But it's not whether or not you suck that's important: It's if you suck less, on that day or that fight, than does your opponent. One way to win, therefore, is not to be good, but to make someone else suck.

I don't see this as a slipper-slope though and this is definitely not a move to open pvp. Allowing reds access to trammel doesn't mean they can go around killing people in other facets (aside from guild wars). We all know pvp will not be open to other facets so no point in imagining this is a step that direction.

Of course it doesn't mean it will literally allow PvP, barring an exploit of course. (Anyone remember the savage mask exploit, though?) It does, however, mean that there'll be another chink in the armor that has kept the entire game from becoming as comparatively empty as is the Felucca facet.

Felucca is a product most people no longer wish to buy. It therefore very much stands to reason that anything that makes the product people do want to buy more like the product they do not wish to buy sell even less.

I think though that it is an inaccurate generalization to say all pvpers openly hate all other facets.

I go by what they have said. They have not been subtle. Note, for example, the term Trammie, now in such common usage that it is difficult, unfortunately, for some to remember its original purpose as an insult. In fact to this day Fellies (a term of far more recent vintage than "Trammie") use "Tram" or "Trammie" to refer to pretty much anything they do not like.


I respect enough PvPers enough to hope I will not be misinterpreted; though I am all too aware that such is a substantial risk.

But the alternative is to let the conventional wisdom on Stratics fly by even though it is at odds with all observable reality, and conceivably let policies be enacted accordingly.

And that is something I can no longer do.

-Galen's player

 

[Anon McDougle]

Even if i had the best suit and it was blessed and i had better weapons i would die vs even the worst PVPer why ?? macros !! i use 4 when i PVM and thats about it ever see a PVMer cast 16 spells when saying hello to a guildy ??? do away with reds and blues if you need colors have a simple tier type thing where only anther green player or a yelllow player can attack a green player and so on up !!! as you gain in PVP kills you get new colors kind like in martial arts that ways its even ground for all

 

[icm420]

I have an account that has over 10 reds, my main server has one blue and 6 reds. Let me say this.. the problem with the garbage talk in chat is not from reds vs reds or blues vs reds or anything to even do with reds. It's all over faction, because points and 20 minutes of stat loss give people a ranking and lots of time to complain about it.

I would love to be able to go to trammel when I wanted to. When fel and tram split I guess they had good reasons for this, I don't know I didn't play then. I should've realized when I started playing that they wouldn't add anymore "fel" like lands, but I loved the pvp. They havn't added a new fel land since the split. I think that the trammel population should share. I do not have any way to farm imbuing ings because it's only in tram. My best characters are red.. how am I to farm on a crafter? (the crafter is only blue because he literally cannot kill anything.)

Now you all can say it was your choice to go red.. and yes it was.. but there was also a time when you HAD to be red to pvp. A blue necromancer didn't work in pvp very well. A blue nox mage didn't work very well. Very few people used to play factions until this upgraded BS armor came out. So the reds are penalized for crimes they commited years ago? Don't say pardon either because unless you have 3k pardons no one is going blue..

The blue population of UO has continously received the good items, the good lands, the good events, blah blah. Ok fine we get 120 scrolls.. but who isn't scrolled out after 10 years of farming scrolls? Anyway, I play in fel first because of the griefing garbage I had happen to me in tram back when I was a noob. If I went to fel and the guy bothered me, I smashed his head in with a mace. Now whos bothering who? I also have a guy who is red because I was pking gold farmers from japan 5+ times a day. If you played during this time you may remember the bags of sending not working in dungeons, as well as the upgraded dread spiders that they never mentioned. Well I was also hounding them, getting a ton of bags of sending to sell back to the farmers while disrupting their gold flow. I had one pay me a mil check so I would stop killing him. I killed him right after he paid me and told him to stop farming. You can partly thank these guys for the horrible economy ( I know not really but it makes it sound better..)

Point is don't act like red and pks are the griefers because it goes both ways. I've had more griefing experiences in trammel then in fel. The reason is in fel you can handle that issue and in tram you can't. Still I can see the blues loving this... while us reds arn't checking spawns you can be out there racking up scrolls. Anyways I think it's a great idea since they don't seem to want ot make another fel land, and the population isn't coming back to fel anytime soon. If they give out complete pardons.. I may considered sending one of my reds back to trammel, but I prefer to do things in fel.. just UO seems to insist that I be blue.

 

[SixUnder]

Oh common, stop with the "If blue are in champ areas it's to PvP" bs. You perfectly know most blues at champs are there only to get the drops from the champs, which they can't get in Tram or you wouldn't see them in Fel at all!

 

[pgib]

I wouldn't like to see reds in trammel but i must recognize that, under trammel rules, it would be no harm at all. I mean, it is not that we have to fight for a place where to kill things anymore.

They could introduce a quest for reds that gives them a "disguise kit" to make them look blue and renamed when they travel to the fair lands.

Of course, because of the mandatory bug they have to introduce in every addition, someone will find a way to break the system and do very nasty things...

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I have an account that has over 10 reds, my main server has one blue and 6 reds. Let me say this.. the problem with the garbage talk in chat is not from reds vs reds or blues vs reds or anything to even do with reds. It's all over faction, because points and 20 minutes of stat loss give people a ranking and lots of time to complain about it.

Were this true, shards with less Faction activity would have less of such talk.

They don't.

I read earlier today that "no one" plays Factions on GL, which came as a surprise to me since I do (though I freely admit not consistently), yet I see that talk all the time on GL.

When fel and tram split I guess they had good reasons for this, I don't know I didn't play then.

People were leaving in droves because, regardless of the nostalgia you occasionally read on here, it was nearly impossible to do anything but PvP in UO pre-Trammel.

Things you read here to the contrary are flat-out lies, are said by those who made a non-PvP life impossible, or, at best, have more to do with romance than reality.

(Just a quick aside: Last time I said this someone replied with "UO isn't a book, Trammie!" I guess he thought the term romance referred only to a genre of books?)

I should've realized when I started playing that they wouldn't add anymore "fel" like lands, but I loved the pvp.

Not quite true, really. Which serves as a nice lead in to....

The blue population of UO has continously received the good items, the good lands, the good events, blah blah.

Demonstrably incorrect.

• Khaldun;
• Power Scrolls (which you, quite ridicuously, dismiss in your post...which suggests to me that you have "won" the argument simply by dismissing contrary evidence as somehow irrelevant);
• Double Fame;
• Double Resources;
• Faction Artifacts;
• The Abyssal Infernal Spawn;
• The Primeval Lich Spawn;
• Most of the first generation of EM events, including but not limited to Lord Blackthorn's attack on Yew;
• Multiple Champ Spawn Artifacts.

This list is only partial.

The Primeval Lich Spawn in particular has a staggering amount of really good content. Cool traps. Special Artifacts and deco drops. Prisoner NPCs who may be a friend or an enemy. Unique monsters that are incredibly fun to fight. Objects that have to be maniuplated in order to unlock content.

This cool content has, of course, been scorned by the players whose facet it was placed in. (Example: After years of complaints about how UO PvP was just choke point defense, there was a post on here about the Primeval Lich Spawn complaining....you guess it, about the lack of a choke point defense. Nary I word that I saw about the content; merely about the lack of choke points.)

Or, in the case of your post, ignored completely.

"No new lands," even taken literally as "lands" and not as another way of saying "content," is demonstrably incorrect; sure they may be small lands but they're bigger than people realize, big enough that people complain about the lack of choke points. And taken figuratively as "no new content," it's even more incorrect.

Sure you can respond with "but I don't like that content, therefore it doesn't count." To which I reply, "I don't like everything in the Trammel rules facets. It still counts anyway, sorry."

And finally.......Most of this unacknowledged content in Felucca was put there in order to lure Trammel players, with the result being seen by how comparatively empty Felucca still is.

Making the rest of the map more like Felucca would, simply, make the rest of the map more empty. Most people made their choices, it's been demonstrated (undeniably) that adding more Fel content just adds more content that is rarely, or never, used. Which brings us back to why they made Trammel to begin with: Keeping things as they were did nothing but satisfy a minority of players whose behavior was making the game more and more empty.

-Galen's player

 

[icm420]

• Khaldun;
• Power Scrolls (which you, quite ridicuously, dismiss in your post...which suggests to me that you have "won" the argument simply by dismissing contrary evidence as somehow irrelevant);
• Double Fame;
• Double Resources;
• Faction Artifacts;
• The Abyssal Infernal Spawn;
• The Primeval Lich Spawn;
• Most of the first generation of EM events, including but not limited to Lord Blackthorn's attack on Yew;
• Multiple Champ Spawn Artifacts.

Khaldun.. there hasn't been a reason to go there for years. Did I miss something new that happened? It's like saying lets go into shame or wrong.. there is no reason to go there..

Power scrolls are quite worthless these days.. seriously 10 years of playing and you are not scrolled out? I am sorry.. I just assumed everyone was unless you just started playing within the past year or so..

Double resources means scripters.. who actually lumberjacks or mines? And if you do actually do it manually you would most likely be in delucia looking for that endless tree or in cove. Both of these are guard zones. So what is the risk of double resource gathering in guard zone?

The new spawns were a nice addition.. but how many times can you do the same spawn until it gets boring? To compare spawns to the content ilsh, malas, tokuno, SA, etc is stupid in my mind. However yes you are correct that you can only get 120s in fel. You are wrong however to think that only fel has replicas, because you can get them in ilsh also.

Faction artifacts have nothing to do with being red. IF anything most faction players are blue. You can wear them in trammel and never have to fight anyone. No matter what you will be rank 1, and on some servers you can be higher without doing anything except join.

I am not an old old player I am a bit newer to uo, so I don't know much about older events, I am most likely wrong. But the past few fel events I was at were poor. Whether you want to blame it on the players or the em's is up to you. I however have seen well run fel events and it's not always a bloodbath where everyone pks everyone. It needs to be run properly. Catskills had a fantastic 3v3 teams event. I didn't participate but I watched. It was very well done.

Anyway I fail to understand what the issue is? I would like to be able to enjoy content that I have not had access to for years and years simply because I choose to defend myself and not take crap from people. And well like anyone we all have weak moments where you just kill someone for the hell of it. But really.. putting a red in trammel and giving him a blue name.. I don't see how it can go wrong. Can differnt factions attack each other in trammel? If not then I don't see how a red could.

I know how GL is I play there a lot, drama should not be mixed up with reds vs blue crap. Some people are short, some are tall, some are fat, some are skinny, some are *******s and some are good people. That's just how that works. I really do not understand what could happen. Are you scared that some red is gonna pk everyone in luna? He could be dead as soon as he targetted anyone, guards spawn by npcs you know . Are you scared some red is gonna drag spawn down on you and invis? This already happens and is a big reason I typically choose to play fel.. if someone did that to me in fel I would kill them. In trammel I have to page to have UO say well nothing we can do because we don't care..

Really tho this wouldn't even be an issue if reds had more content. A fel side abyss and I would never have even bothered to post on here. But I for one am sick of constant spawning and lady mel, and paroxymus, etc etc. I would like to use my favorite characters to do a medusa, mayb tame a hiyru, mayb see wtf a paragon ancient wyrm is all about.

Also trammel griefing is much much more common.. not just dragging spawn and such but you can guild people and pk them without consquence. So really what is the issue you have with reds? A pker would have a better time in trammel then in fel and it's been that way for a long time. Thraximus on sonoma was a good example of that, the dude was horrible and never went to fel because he got owned. But he would pk several people a day even with someone devoted to informing everyone who ever steps onto sonoma about him..

I do not mean to come off as a **** (too late for that I guess), but really I don't see hte big deal.. let some of us go to trammel again just to say hi to old friends, hunt new dungeons (new to someone who hasn't been to ilsh in 4 years), shop at luna, have a vendor! and enjoy being able to bank sit. Idk I'm gonna shut up about it.

 

[Viper09]

Galen, why did you tack on khaldun and really old events into a list there? That stuff is painfully outdated and in terms of the aged event, a one time thing. That stuff is so old. lol And double fame isn't really significant. If you maintain that the list is only partial you should replace those with more important things. I have no issue with your opposition but that list isn't too great, in fact it actually makes me kind of sad, lol. I might even suggest that double resources isn't too grand either but meh.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Galen, why did you tack on khaldun and really old events into a list there? That stuff is painfully outdated and in terms of the aged event, a one time thing. That stuff is so old. lol And double fame isn't really significant. If you maintain that the list is only partial you should replace those with more important things. I have no issue with your opposition but that list isn't too great, in fact it actually makes me kind of sad, lol. I might even suggest that double resources isn't too grand either but meh.

As I stated. "I do not like this content" (and "this content is not significant" is in this context plainly the same as "I do not like this content") is not the same thing as "we have not been given content."

I fully recognize that faith and nostalgia are potent forces when it comes to arguing the Fel side of the Fel/Tram debate and all of its various sub-debates, and I am severely disadvantaged as I but have empirical evidence, however sometimes flawed and impressionistic, to counter them. And even the most impressionist of evidence cannot possibly counter faith.

But oh well, at least I was in the arena.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Khaldun.. there hasn't been a reason to go there for years. Did I miss something new that happened? It's like saying lets go into shame or wrong.. there is no reason to go there..

As stated, and really this reply can be extrapolated to basically everything you said: "I do not like this content" is plainly not the same as "we have not been given content."

Power scrolls are quite worthless these days..

This, however, is an empirical point that can be easily disproved. High-end scrolls still sell. Probably always will as long as new characters are being made.

Double resources means scripters.. who actually lumberjacks or mines?

Non-scripters whom I know.

*shrugs*

You are wrong however to think that only fel has replicas, because you can get them in ilsh also.

I was plainly referring to the ones that you can only get in Fel; from the 2 new champs and the Harrower, and let's face it: Though the team doesn't admit to it the odds of getting one in Fel are quite plainly way higher, even the shared ones.

Faction artifacts have nothing to do with being red.

The issue was "Felucca content."

You can wear them in trammel and never have to fight anyone.

You can also wear them in, say, the Lost Lands in Fel, never see another Faction Player, and use them against other PvPers who are not in Factions.

The issue was "Felucca Content," because the issue was raised by you all in the context of "let the reds experience content denied them." (At least I think so.) And to a lesser degree by me in the context of "making Tram more like Fel is a bad idea because all of this Fel-exclusive or Fel-favored content has not significantly increased the population of Fel."

I am not an old old player I am a bit newer to uo, so I don't know much about older events, I am most likely wrong. But the past few fel events I was at were poor.

Again, and there is a limited number of times I can type this: "I do not like this content" is not the same thing as "there has been no content."

Whether you want to blame it on the players or the em's is up to you.

This is a side issue but I'll address it quick: No, it's not up to me, not really, it's up to the evidence, and the evidence I have seen suggests the following: When players want to ruin something, which they too-often do, they can ruin it. The EMs on GL have held many Fel events and have been griefed to death by the same Fel guild that has also griefed their Tram events.

Anyway I fail to understand what the issue is?

Of course.

I explained this, more or less adequately, in my other posts.

I recognize though that faith and nostalgia are potent forces when it comes to arguing the Fel side of the Fel/Tram debate and all of its various sub-debates, and I am severely disadvantaged as I but have empirical evidence, however sometimes flawed and impressionistic, to counter them. And even the most impressionist of evidence cannot possibly counter faith.

*washes hands and walks away*

-Galen's player

 

[Viper09]

Except this really isn't a tram/fel debate. This is a discussion of why pks should no longer be restricted to a single facet when the true advancement of this game is focused on "blues." Yes fel gets a few stuff here and there but in whole the real stuff being added such as new land masses, cities, etc are not open to them. Coupled with the argument mentioned several times (counts mostly coming from consensual pvp). I don't see why we need to keep the restriction any longer.

 

[aarons6]

viper i agree, i no longer pvp much anymore cause every time i do i get like 20 murder counts and i can no longer go do the fun things like kill abyss bosses, or navry, or medusa. but this guy either doesnt understand, never pvp'd or just likes to argue.


also one other small thing that you should note.
murder counts = unattended macroing.

who can stay logged in 40 hours at a time and actually be sitting at the keyboard the whole time?

 

[Shiznit Bo'Bourbon]

They've been adding crap to Felucca for 10 years pretending that someday a Trammie will go there, and it's never ever ever worked. Outside of trying to lure Trammies, there's no REASON to put content in Felucca because there's nobody there except a tiny minority of jackholes who sit around ruining General Chat.

"Us ten guys sitting around Yew Fel gate totally deserve new lands that will sit empty forever!"

How about no?