Plan to revive Detectives...

[Fayled Dhreams]

Fayled, you are more worked up over this discussion than me, shinobi, and a teenager who just discovered bang bus all rolled into one. I'm excited to see someone get so excited. Allow me to address your concerns/comments/points to the best of my ability!

Sorry ... you mis-read IF you are taking that as "enthusiasm" ... its a version of fatalistic finality ... no hoody hoohaa happy happy joy joy ...
more the stove is hot and will burn you again.

1. When I say "roleplay" I refer "hail and well met sire!" and necromancers having guild meetings in the cemetery, cause that is what necromancers do. I'm not referring to playing the role of your character, because that is what I do.

what did you just say? ... besides: not me roleplay them bad roleplay me good roleplay ... i mean really ... what ARE you trying to say?

2. Nobody wants to go all TSA on anyone. I am very much anti-authority. When you hear detective please don't think CSI detectives on the prowl taking your ass downtown... I wouldn't have much interest in playing some law character that just went around invading peoples privacy. We put up with that in the real world, why bring that into a game.

no one said they wanted that ... very good ... >I said< no one would TOLERATE it ...
I also said that to >make an effectively revived detective class<
could / would REQUIRE it though ...
as did you ... in different ways throughout your overly long reply.

3. If you're talking about the big steal on Atlantic.. the suit.. I was a part of that. Obviously NOT on the thieving end. But I was there snooping around. That is of course not a technical "use steal skill on item in backpack" theft, so none of anything we're talking about has to do with that case.

Sooo ... you want >everyone< to enjoy, as you did ... being a truly thoroughly >in effective< Detective ...
G'luck, I see that as being a hard sell ...
peeps can >already< role a character complete with "Detective type" title ... so ...
you are done here then ... ???

4. While thieves have suffered some nerfing, no doubt... they still get plenty of opportunities to pull heists. Whether it's guild stealing in trammel, or powerscroll/artifact snatching at the spawns. So we clearly don't need them un-nerfed... the rabbits are already in the garden. When people get robbed they do several things: rage about it, quit, spam warnings about the player for the rest of the day, laugh it off. The laugh-it-off'ers are in the minority... So if nothing else maybe the detective is just a morale booster? Never the less, you might find that some people who weren't terribly interested in participating in Felucca, may be inspired to make a sleuth and start poking their heads around in red gates. More people in Fel? I can live with that!

Some nerfing ... you are either blissfully ignorant, or, hmmmm ... can't think of what else might qualify as a reasonable alibi ...

5. You should take a read of my "throw a detective a bone" thread. There were some great contributions from other players about how to give Forensics some fun and useful PVM applications. Not the focus on this particular thread, but it would work.

sorry watson ... DID read it ... yeah so?

6. Your A-F rationalization is exactly the hurdle that we are trying to get over. How to functionally track a theft without going overboard.

AGAIN: you mis read it ... tain't "rationalization" it IS the stove is hot and will burn the flesh from your hand >explanation< of why you are pretending this detective revival will end in any other place than the burn ward ...
You STILL have not brought as much as a weak sunscreen to promote the glimist dimmist hope of success ...

is exactly the hurdle that we are trying to get over.

*shakes head* fine ... show me how you are going to try and get over the stove ... nuff talking ... show time ...
*raises eyebrows*
*dials burn ward*

There are enough people running around as thieves... infinitely more than there are people chasing them. We seem to be on the same page. I would love to hear some suggestions from you.

there is NO evidence of that though ... bad math will not promote/revive your detective either.
Tell you what ... research your "idea" on the thiefs forum ...

since I know of no one who has said hey lets make detectives and kill people...

that is what I said to myself when I created my detective... I throw a smidge of character roleplay in there like when I am listening to somebody I will emote *takes notes* or something... but that's about as heavy as it gets. yeah, when I made him I was thinking of seeing a thief snatch an item, throw on track, give chase, pop him a few times and moving shot him down with a hit fireball repeater or something gnarly like that [which I have done multiple times]. it was very fun for a long time, now it doesn't get me as giddy due to me being jaded about the glaring weaknesses and lack of content of my template.

How do you make it so the thief can't just bank the item? If a timer is placed on a thief so they can't remove/bank an item it would seem to me that a thief would be even harder to play and even less successful then they already are. Idk I will shut up about it, it won't effect me in any way what so ever and I apoligize for trolling your thread.

that is the question I am asking myself. and I don't think that's the right way to go about it. I'm thinking there needs to be a bond between the item and the detective for anything solid to happen. making the link between the thief and the detective exclusively won't work.

SEE: the A-F again ... already covered


Sherlock ...

 

[Readydood]

you really love your STOVE IS HOT! BURN WARD >STOVE HAND BURN HOT< HOT POTS KITCHEN CLASS><><><>

I don't really have any answer, this is just brainstorming.

And you're not going to bait me into a tirade.
If you want to pick my words apart you go right ahead.

Zyon, I'll get to yours after I get some sleep.

 

[Caldwin_DDP]

I have always agreed with Shinobi on one point, stealing was put into the game. I can't defame someone for taking up that skill at all. In the early Ultima games the thieves would get their group into the locked treasure rooms and so forth. And then with UO a whole different thief emerged. And I agree that the detective needs some love in UO.

So I was standing in line at DragonCon to get Richard Garriott autograph. And there with me were the dedicated Ultima fans. Their cloth maps ready to be signed by Lord British. Richard was held up a bit and we had time to talk. There were folks from many shards. And we all talked about different adventures. At some point someone brought up stealing or a thief and I had to tell them, until you've been ganked by Shinobi - you ain't been ganked bro.

 

[Ned888]

Sorry ... you mis-read IF you are taking that as "enthusiasm" ... its a version of fatalistic finality ... no hoody hoohaa happy happy joy joy ...
more the stove is hot and will burn you again.

what did you just say? ... besides: not me roleplay them bad roleplay me good roleplay ... i mean really ... what ARE you trying to say?

no one said they wanted that ... very good ... >I said< no one would TOLERATE it ...
I also said that to >make an effectively revived detective class<
could / would REQUIRE it though ...
as did you ... in different ways throughout your overly long reply.

Sooo ... you want >everyone< to enjoy, as you did ... being a truly thoroughly >in effective< Detective ...
G'luck, I see that as being a hard sell ...
peeps can >already< role a character complete with "Detective type" title ... so ...
you are done here then ... ???

Some nerfing ... you are either blissfully ignorant, or, hmmmm ... can't think of what else might qualify as a reasonable alibi ...

sorry watson ... DID read it ... yeah so?

AGAIN: you mis read it ... tain't "rationalization" it IS the stove is hot and will burn the flesh from your hand >explanation< of why you are pretending this detective revival will end in any other place than the burn ward ...
You STILL have not brought as much as a weak sunscreen to promote the glimist dimmist hope of success ...
*shakes head* fine ... show me how you are going to try and get over the stove ... nuff talking ... show time ...
*raises eyebrows*
*dials burn ward*

there is NO evidence of that though ... bad math will not promote/revive your detective either.
Tell you what ... research your "idea" on the thiefs forum ...

SEE: the A-F again ... already covered


Sherlock ...

Just a thought, but perhaps you could turn your attention to ways to improve your role as a Thief, instead of trying to argue away someone elses ideas. The original idea was not to nerf Thieves, but instead to boost them by making them a sort of 'pocket industry' of sorts. The challenge would be on both classes, not just the Detective.

Of course someone would have to brainstorm the thieving perspective to make sure it was balanced. Someone with some experience....

 

[Neutron Bomb]

Fay, your posts are getting harder and harder to differentiate between the longest trolling posts ever, or >babble< of the >insane<. (And I usually find your posts entertaining to read).

These guys just threw out an idea, and a poll. Personally I don't like some of the 'crew' they hang out with due to scamming reasons, but the idea is a good one. They propose to take a USELESS skill and turn it into something USEFUL and more importantly FUN.

I recently GM'd Forensic Eval. (in as little as 5 hours) and have found little reason in using it. I do not see the point in a detective receiving reduced cost at vendors, but I do see it as >somewhat< useful in these new misplaced items. From what I understand however, this is a >new< event. Forensic has been around...well not quite sure since I have never considered it until I read a post in UHall. So it's long been useless. I agree, it needs a revival, and these are the best ideas yet, dare I say the best idea for any revival of any skill. It actually sounds fun, and entertaining.

>Something< of which I haven't experienced in this game in a >LONG< time.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

Fay, your posts are getting harder and harder to differentiate between the longest trolling posts ever, or >babble< of the >insane<. (And I usually find your posts entertaining to read).

These guys just threw out an idea, and a poll. Personally I don't like some of the 'crew' they hang out with due to scamming reasons, but the idea is a good one. They propose to take a USELESS skill and turn it into something USEFUL and more importantly FUN.

I recently GM'd Forensic Eval. (in as little as 5 hours) and have found little reason in using it. I do not see the point in a detective receiving reduced cost at vendors, but I do see it as >somewhat< useful in these new misplaced items. From what I understand however, this is a >new< event. Forensic has been around...well not quite sure since I have never considered it until I read a post in UHall. So it's long been useless. I agree, it needs a revival, and these are the best ideas yet, dare I say the best idea for any revival of any skill. It actually sounds fun, and entertaining.

>Something< of which I haven't experienced in this game in a >LONG< time.

sorry ...
FIRST y'all need to provide some reason to overlook the obvious realities of Game Design re: UO.

that being AGAIN: the devs ain't gonna de-nerf the thieves ... ever.
The lowest common denominator thief (some level +1 above where they are NOW)

creates more problems than they are worth TO THE GAME now ...
that's why they got nerfed ... they didn't start out nerfed and now they are ...
there was a process involved ... it transpired over a lengthy period of time
with lengthy & thorough debates
the end justification being:
thief's WERE too much bother to alibi any more

that darling cherub of a street thug


becomes an (griefing)annoyance the umpteenth time they tith you of your bandies ...
they don't NEED a bandie ...
they only want to see you twitch each time they thieve it ...

Well if we made a set of rules that the thief ...
NO! damnit ...
That "set of rules" could only be trusted to work on an npc ...
not a human player character.

it IS the whole non-con argument all over again
the majority of peeps don't want you to touch their pixels
PLEASE bring me the documented study that flatly proves that wrong ...

the ONLY way to half-assed design a detective MANDATES that it have a comparable "opposing force"
again: the thief.

this is not something that >I< made up by the way ...
cowboys and indians
cops and robbers
shirts and skins

UO thief's ... quickly morph their playstyle to be able to rob anyone as often as they can(want/care to)
not only the shirts and cops and cowboys ... but ALSO the skins the indians and EACH OTHER ...
they are playing >their playstyle< at as high a level as they can
which
yet again
at ANY LEVEL greater than current
is BEYOND game control

again: Not MY FAULT ...
it is what it is ...
Your "brainstorm" ain't gonna uncover a long undiscovered treasure ... a viable/revived detective class.

there is NOT one buried any where.
again: Not MY FAULT ...

Burma Shave

 

[Taylor]

A thief/detective booster would bring me back to UO.

 

[G.v.P]

To the OP, this plan won't work. Thieves would just log out, and people who use thieves would just rotate thieves. Yes, it would be cool, but first we have to balance Detectives.

Readydood, I have not read your throw a detective a bone thread yet, but have read this thread in its entirety. I cannot guarantee I didn't miss something in this thread, but I can guarantee I may repeat something suggested in your thread. Apologies.

In this thread, you suggest:

1. the thieves guild but for detectives.

2. merge tracking and detect hidden.

3. "undercover kit" for detectives, works like disguise kit.

First off, no name change for the disguise kit. It's okay if thieves and detectives both use disguise kits.

I'm going to take "three" a step or two further.

STEP 1)
Detectives should have access to a few primary skills: Detect Hidden, Forensic Evaluation, Taste Identification, and Remove Trap. However, it's impossible to fit all of these skills into a working template. All of these skills go 0-100, which means a master could be made. Therefore, all of these skills should be merged into one skill, and all of these skills should become abilities of that skill, with a skill book like Chivalry.

Criminal Investigation (New Skill)
[ ] Detect Hidden
[ ] Forensic Evaluation
[ ] Taste Identification
[ ] Remove Trap

STEP 2)
Each ability would operate as it does now, and each ability would scale, as it does now, based on 0-100 Criminal Investigation skill. Additionally, there would be two sets of secondary skills to compliment Criminal Investigation:

1) Anatomy, Tactics, Focus

2) Meditation, Wrestling, Evaluating Intelligence

I'm not sure what bonus these skills should provide, but the main premise is a Detective will have Tracking and Criminal Investigation standard, then 500-520 points to spend elsewhere, and I felt the six skills above give way to a few dexxer/archer/thrower/mage options which could be interesting. Could go (720):

120 Archery (Hunter's Headdress +20)
120 Tact
120 Magic Resist (Jewelry +15)
120 Anat (Jewelry +15)
90 Heal
100 Tracking
100 Criminal Investigation

Would be a step (or two) in the right direction. Still limited in combat, but not as much.

I think something should be done to players that rob players by joining guilds or using guilds and then rob from them in trammel. And then disappear.

Sorry, off topic here but...

What is the reasoning behind allowing guild stealing in Trammel? Just curious.

Answer:

Another reason for the stealing skill ( Im not even getting back into the confidence tricks) working in trammel guilds is skill gain. Can you practice stealing skill on guildmates or guided pack animals?

But you can steal from a bag on the ground as well. Anyway, removing the ability to use stealing in Trammel is short sighted. Most "scams" do not involve the skill at all. All you have to do is say, hey, can I see that drop you just got? Or hey, can I look at your bracelet real quick? If people are really concerned about the skill itself, a simple fix would be for Ronin status guildies not to be able to use the stealing skill on other guildmates in Trammel. But that's not going to stop scammers who fancy themselves thieves.

6. Your A-F rationalization is exactly the hurdle that we are trying to get over. How to functionally track a theft without going overboard.

Only a detective would try to reason with Fayled

 

[Shinobi]

While we're on the subject of a new skill book, I had thought up one for thieves a while back. It is in an in-game book, so I'll have to post it later.

A little more discussing and we may have a booster on our hands.

 

[puzzleagent]

While we're on the subject of a new skill book, I had thought up one for thieves a while back. It is in an in-game book, so I'll have to post it later.

A little more discussing and we may have a booster on our hands.

Already excited!

I always wanted to run an effective and fun detective template

 

[Ned888]

I think a lot of excellent ideas have been put out there! After reading some of the arguments, I do agree that much of any content should be PvM. Until some way to review thieving can be done, anyway.

As far as detectives go, I would like to see some kind of magical specialization as well as the standard. There are a lot of skills that can affect a detective quest, which makes it even better, because you wouldn't be able to do it all. You would need to band together and use everyone's skills. Team work!!!!

Whether anything comes of it or not, the ideas are fantastic!

 

[G.v.P]

A little more discussing and we may have a booster on our hands.

UO: Noire

that's my kind of RP. I was so pissed when L.A. Noire wasn't going to be released on PC. But apparently it's coming out this Nov!

 

[puzzleagent]

UO: Noire

that's my kind of RP. I was so pissed when L.A. Noire wasn't going to be released on PC. But apparently it's coming out this Nov!

Yes! And with all those DLCs included

 

[Ned888]

All this talk of LA:Noir got me thinking about the equipment that could be created for a detective character!

1. A Fedora (sort of fantasy style) or those 'Sherlock Holmes' style hats
2. Magnifying GlassA detectives notebook (a book that keeps track of your current mission)
3. A mantle and cape - sort of like Sherlock Holmes used to wear

If you could tame a dog (bloodhound) to help with tracking that would be kind of cool too!

I'm trying to think of my favorite detectives from fiction and fantasy: Harry Dresden, Sherlock Holmes, Jacques Clouseau....

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

Only a detective would try to reason with Fayled

heh!

why thank you watson ...
though a LOT of educated professions MAY also dare/try to reason with me ...
they usually only do it to check their work for flaws ...

and detectives ... well
>Reasoning WITH< someone ... ain't exactly what they really do ...
They USE reason to figure out who did what crime and how ...

Seems you don't know the basic definition actions class of Detectives

at all ...

tis reasonable to posit ... given the written CLUES ...

 

[Woodsman]

UO: Noire

that's my kind of RP. I was so pissed when L.A. Noire wasn't going to be released on PC. But apparently it's coming out this Nov!

Was happy when the Tex Murphy games were put up on GOG.com.

Come to think of it, some of the early Tex Murphy stuff could probably be recreated as quests within UO, they were simple enough. Just ignore the setting.

 

[G.v.P]

though a LOT of educated professions MAY also dare/try to reason with me ...
they usually only do it to check their work for flaws ...

It's so cute how you think you have that kind of credibility. You remind me of Charlie Sheen, post meltdown and sans previous success. We should roast you on OT sometime, maybe for a charity. Say, the "Bring the Old Sheep Back" foundation. I think you'd enjoy it more than us.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

It's so cute how you think you have that kind of credibility. You remind me of Charlie Sheen, post meltdown and sans previous success. We should roast you on OT sometime, maybe for a charity. Say, the "Bring the Old Sheep Back" foundation. I think you'd enjoy it more than us.

Now see? that could make a perfect example of how NOT to troll ...
it makes you look petty and childish to personally attack someone ...
and not have any adult evidence to back it up with ...

you being the accuser ... burden of proof lay with thee ... logically ...
*smirk*

also lays the "troll" tag on you ..
>I< took your failed troll as a lefthanded compliment
You knocked that down as Not being a compliment in any way ... just a troll casting
and fumbled that ... by not having any evidence.

*shrugs*

Sherlock Holmes you ain't ... ... course that was an obvious "given" but ...

I think it should detract from any "Design ideas" you may offer
for a DETECTIVE ...


Call homicide !!!! I'm dying over here ... being pecked to death by small minded ducks ...


and OH! ... OT don't work that way ...nhb used to ... Stolen by the PC police ...


Edit in
(certainly not WORTH a bump)

YO! when did your trolling turn this thread INTO a FAYLED ONLY topic?
when you lost your way?
or lost your point?

Need a DETECTIVE to help you find your way?

They don't DO that either ...

*takes coup* wooo wooo wooo

 

[Shinobi]

On second thought, i don't think i'm going to post my Book of the Thief suggestions. It would just derail the thread through disputing it, lol.

 

[G.v.P]

>I< took your failed troll as a lefthanded compliment
You knocked that down as Not being a compliment in any way ... just a troll casting
and fumbled that ... by not having any evidence.

All you do on Stratics is argue about wordplay or ideas which have no bearing on the topic at hand, or you post links you find from Google searches because, quite frankly, you don't have a working knowledge of UO, or PvP. Instead you try to argue terminology or appear scholarly by posting the work of others. But usually you do neither, and just post babble and pictures. You do not contribute to the community of Stratics.

Here are your last five posts, as way of evidence:

Two for an otherwise OT topic:
http://vboards.stratics.com/2024776-post36.html
The first embedded with videos found from YouTube (Google) search.

http://vboards.stratics.com/2024797-post38.html
The second embedded with images that don't even work, found possible via a Google search.

One in which you simply respond to the phrase "Trick or Treating":
http://vboards.stratics.com/2024827-post91.html

One in which you discuss Hobbits:
http://vboards.stratics.com/2024832-post92.html

One in which you use Google search to find Ultima Account Management links, and post every one you can even though the OP is already aware:
http://vboards.stratics.com/uhall/252325-account-management-tutorial-video-text.html#post2024842

None of those responses require any working knowledge of UO and none of them helped anyone except those who wanted to laugh at pumpkins--when the content you posted actually worked.

 

[G.v.P]

On second thought, i don't think i'm going to post my Book of the Thief suggestions. It would just derail the thread through disputing it, lol.

lol...eventually every thread will get forgotten or locked...it's the nature of a forum. if there are enough passionate people, might as well keep it rolling. at least, if the Devs are reading, they can absorb content here. in other, more popular games, the forums are crazy. like league of legends...their forums are used by over a million people. if you make a thread there it can end up five or more pages behind the next day ;D.

 

[puzzleagent]

Speaking of LA Noire got me thinking,

What if a system implemented to hunt down murderers by gathering evidence from corpses? Like actually doing some forensic work?

 

[Ned888]

On second thought, i don't think i'm going to post my Book of the Thief suggestions. It would just derail the thread through disputing it, lol.

Start a new thread, I'd like to hear your ideas and I know I always have some of my own. Besides, all this detective talk is getting me to thinking about starting a thief character!

I wish there was more PvM stuff for a thief to do, but hey, we can discuss that when we get there!

 

[Felonious Monk]

(UO Herald) Stealing - a skill used to obtain an item(s) from another player's inventory.


Shut up already and realize THIS IS NOT REAL LIFE.

Ya. Actually it is real life.

 

[Readydood]

Readydood, I have not read your throw a detective a bone thread yet, but have read this thread in its entirety. I cannot guarantee I didn't miss something in this thread, but I can guarantee I may repeat something suggested in your thread. Apologies

That is quite alright.

I actually dug back through that thread and found the post where I mention adding a ninja/bushido style spellbook for forensics. copy + paste = below.

I was thinking since Stealthers have to take the same combat loss for having hide/stealth/ninjitsu, but still retain a mana reduction for having 200 with ninjitsu. Perhaps Forensics could be included in the skills that contribute to mana reduction. That would surely be more encouraging for a player to take forensics. Granted not a huge one, but we are getting closer. Perhaps if Forensics was given a spellbook/skillset like ninjitsu has. So you could use forensics the skill to investigate items like you currently do. But then have a forensics book that would give you mana costing moves and abilities. This system would function just like bushido and ninjitsu, as far as being un-interuptable, and casting while moving. A few I was thinking of could be:

* a move that will knock people out of whatever form they are in, similar to using dismount on someone in llama form, or the mystic spell... only usable on whatever weapon.

* a move that gives you a temporary speed bonus on foot allowing you to close the distance between a fleeing criminal, or to escape a dismount by an assassin. The boost time would be very short and there would be a cooldown so as to not move at mounted speed continuously.

* a move that would function as incognito or a disguise kit, allowing the detective to go undercover. the move would function as a form in that it isn't on a timer and you must use it again to go back to being you. however if you deal any damage/commit negative acts [casting curse, stealing, snooping] on another player, your cover will be blown. While in this form you will also not be allowed to open trade windows with players.

G.V.P. great idea on the combining skills into "criminal investigation" category. Although I am not sure how remove trap would fit into things... if you can provide me with a concept or two I might be behind you on it.

as for assist skills like focus, anat, tactics.. i don't think that is necessary. but i do like the idea of having assist skills for criminal investigation.. but why not have that skill be tracking? tracking is to criminal investigation like focus is to mystic, or eval is to magery. that would make much more sense. and would allow further flexibility for templates.

Ned. I really like the ideas for the named detective equipement. I would be a liar if I said I never brainstorm to myself about that stuff. For me it would be a wizards hat [like nystul's]. The feathered hat would be a close second... i just feel like a news boy when i wear one.

as for the a bloodhound idea, i think that's great but could be prone to serious greifing. like being killed with a magic arrow every time you get one. maybe a bloodhound could be a summon though with the criminal investigators spellbook. when he is out he could extend the detectives tracking range and give a tracking time increase. maybe he could start growling whenever he gets within a certain tile range of a stealther?

 

[Ned888]

That is quite alright.

I actually dug back through that thread and found the post where I mention adding a ninja/bushido style spellbook for forensics. copy + paste = below.



G.V.P. great idea on the combining skills into "criminal investigation" category. Although I am not sure how remove trap would fit into things... if you can provide me with a concept or two I might be behind you on it.

as for assist skills like focus, anat, tactics.. i don't think that is necessary. but i do like the idea of having assist skills for criminal investigation.. but why not have that skill be tracking? tracking is to criminal investigation like focus is to mystic, or eval is to magery. that would make much more sense. and would allow further flexibility for templates.

Ned. I really like the ideas for the named detective equipement. I would be a liar if I said I never brainstorm to myself about that stuff. For me it would be a wizards hat [like nystul's]. The feathered hat would be a close second... i just feel like a news boy when i wear one.

as for the a bloodhound idea, i think that's great but could be prone to serious greifing. like being killed with a magic arrow every time you get one. maybe a bloodhound could be a summon though with the criminal investigators spellbook. when he is out he could extend the detectives tracking range and give a tracking time increase. maybe he could start growling whenever he gets within a certain tile range of a stealther?

Excellent! I was thinking more along the lines of a trained dog giving you a 10-15% bonus to your tracking and detect, but your idea is much better.

I always wear a feathered hat too. It's my Fletcher's cap, since that's my trade of choice.

Either way though, I always wonder why spell books are needed for any class other than a Mage or Necromancer. I look at it as a way to keep their power in check, because they need extra equipment which takes up space and weight. For skills like Bushido/Ninjitsu/Chivalry you should just get access to the ability once you get to a certain skill level (ala crafting). No need to carry around a book.... although I can sort of see it for Chiv; kind of a 'bible' of sorts.

I really like the detective ideas that are getting thrown around here. I hope that we can continue to come up with this kind of material for ALL of the various skills/builds. I'd like to see this become some sort of booster along with a gradual roll out of quest boosters that stay in effect until a full quest system is created.

There are so many good ideas out there!

 

[Readydood]

I really like Fayled's idea about not trying to focus on the revival of a detective class being anti-thief purely. Because then things get really complex. If we stay with the idea that detectives can do so much more than that, a lot of opportunities open up.

Thanks for the suggestion Fayled!

 

[G.v.P]

G.V.P. great idea on the combining skills into "criminal investigation" category. Although I am not sure how remove trap would fit into things... if you can provide me with a concept or two I might be behind you on it.

I looked at Forensic Evaluation, Taste Identification, Detect Hidden, Remove Trap, Tracking, and Lockpicking. I felt like Tracking and Lockpicking could stand alone, while the other four skills seemed sort of limited in use.

Right now, most people use Detect Hidden/Remove Trap only for Factions, while it's a lot easier to use Lockpicking and the mage spell telekinesis for PvM practical jobs. Otherwise, Detect Hidden counters a stealther for the sake of a niche or detective build, but only if Tracking can be used as well; Detect Hidden is often usurped by inflag pots and the like for the purposes of PvP.

Outside of Factions, Remove Trap is seldom used. Maybe it would be better if Remove Trap merged with Lockpicking. As it is now, Remove Trap certainly isn't needed by a detective in search of a thief. However, as a stand alone skill, I really don't think it's worth 100 skill points, which is why I included it in the merger idea.

as for assist skills like focus, anat, tactics.. i don't think that is necessary. but i do like the idea of having assist skills for criminal investigation.. but why not have that skill be tracking? tracking is to criminal investigation like focus is to mystic, or eval is to magery. that would make much more sense. and would allow further flexibility for templates.

While Elves can reduce the value of Detect Hidden and Tracking, and Ninjitsu can make it very difficult to continue the chase, a thief has to dedicate up to 560 skill points to produce a theft then avoid capture:

120 Stealth
120 Stealing
120 Ninjitsu
100 Hide
100 Snooping

Under the combined plan, a detective would need to invest only 200 skill (Criminal Investigation and Tracking), then devote the rest of his build towards burst damage to counter a thief's regen rate and escape abils. By giving Tracking the bonus outright it would probably make Tracking too powerful. But I was thinking, the Anatomy skill used actively on a target, for example, perhaps the target could be made easier to Track/Detect for a short duration and auto-queue upon the next Tracking check, no matter the form (at say, 100 Anatomy)..."You see through the guise and quickly relocate your target." Perhaps the same could be done with 100 Eval Int. Stuff like that. Like I said, that's a Step 2, would take a lot of balance work to figure out. Either way, I agree some sort of skill-combine needs to happen in order to make detectives, or a counter to the thief/stealther (and ninjitsu PvP stealther) build, more viable.

 

[Petra Fyde]

You realise that, at high levels, forensic eval can see through the thief disguise kit?

 

[G.v.P]

You realise that, at high levels, forensic eval can see through the thief disguise kit?

Not sure who you are responding to if not the thread itself, but I was talking about ninjitsu form change, how a thief can switch from human to monster to animal quickly, which makes tracking attempts difficult.

 

[Petra Fyde]

aye. I wondered if forensic eval had any effect in such a situation. I'm not too familiar with the skill, it's not one I've ever really looked into.

 

[Readydood]

You realise that, at high levels, forensic eval can see through the thief disguise kit?

This is wrong information. It was and is probably still posted under Forensics on stratics, but it isn't true.

hang on a second, I'ma check! ... ...... ... Nope! it has been removed. Phew.

even at GM Forensic you still get the same message when using the skill on a thief.. that he/she is a member of the thieves guild. If that person is using a disguise kit, you aren't able to drop their disguise.

 

[Petra Fyde]

hmm, I didn't know that. I'm glad I didn't include it in the new page untested.

 

[Readydood]

While Elves can reduce the value of Detect Hidden and Tracking, and Ninjitsu can make it very difficult to continue the chase, a thief has to dedicate up to 560 skill points to produce a theft then avoid capture:

120 Stealth
120 Stealing
120 Ninjitsu
100 Hide
100 Snooping

Under the combined plan, a detective would need to invest only 200 skill (Criminal Investigation and Tracking), then devote the rest of his build towards burst damage to counter a thief's regen rate and escape abils. By giving Tracking the bonus outright it would probably make Tracking too powerful.

you just said that a thief has to dedicate all those skill points to producing a theft and then avoiding capture. as it should be! that is their job! so it is only fitting that a detective should have to devote all his skill points to pursuing AND apprehending said thief. if the detective template needs 560 skill points just to pursue he is not going to be able to do any apprehending. it's going to look something like this:

detective: "aha! you're cornered now... nowhere to run"
thief: "so what now detective? you've got me right where you want me..."
detective: "uhhh... hmmm... give the item back?"
thief: "lol, bye"

and if you go with making the companion skills things like anatomy or evaluate intelligence... those are skills most fighters or mages are going to have anyways. so it's a bit of a moot issue. buuut then you box people into predictable templates. which is how i feel with mine.... a little boxed.

also, you know how tracking works just like i do. if the thief stays human, then you gotta check for humans, if he goes into animal form, you gotta look for animals, etc. but you can't see any of this, so you have no idea what form he is in. add in the fact that you'll fail tracking several times in a row against a good stealther, and that it takes 11 seconds in between tracks, it can take up to a minute to find someone when yer playing the guessing game.

"is he human? damn i failed... or did I? maybe he is in animal form.... nope no animals around.. so he's not a llama or did I just fail again? crap..."

the thought of tracking being over powered amuses me greatly.

***EDIT***

going back to detectives only needing 200 skill points vs a thief needing considerably more. thieves have stealth and get to move around felucca avoiding the kind of run-ins that non stealthers, like detectives, would have to deal with. another reason to allow them enough skill point room to have a fair amount of combat ability. obviously if my detective runs into a couple of skilled pk's he is going down, but the template should at least be able to have a chance against a thug.

 

[Ned888]

I looked at Forensic Evaluation, Taste Identification, Detect Hidden, Remove Trap, Tracking, and Lockpicking. I felt like Tracking and Lockpicking could stand alone, while the other four skills seemed sort of limited in use.

I snipped quite a bit off of this post, but i think that the above is an issue that needs to be addressed and rectified, not condensed and collapsed.

All of the above skills need to be given a viable and useful place in the game. There is no reason to remove skills; that's a backward slide. We need to make them have a reason for being and that is a challenge that I think the development team is up for.

It would make for quite a collection of boosters.

Anyway, I think a real live detective shouldn't and wouldn't be a true combat monster, they'd have to devote a lot of skills to actually solving crimes, and at most would have a weapon skill, Anatomy and Tactics. Everything else would be directed towards solving aspects of whatever crime they were investigating:

1. Taste ID: Checking for poison on food or a weapon (maybe even IDing who made the poison or what kind/level of poison it is.
2. Forensic Evaluation: More than just a name of who killed who. This skill should be about bringing the other facts together somehow, like an anchor/base skill. This IS Detective.
3. Arms Lore: Helping to identify the murder weapon and some facts about the skill level of the person using it ("Only a Master Fencer could use a dagger with that level of precision!").
4. Anatomy: How long has the person been dead, what was the cause of death (weapon/poison/magic). Works hand in hand with Arms Lore.
5. Detect Traps: Those crafty thieves and criminals use traps right? This would mostly be of value when you were trying to capture a PvM criminal. I know Tinkers can trap stuff (at least I think they can, it's been a while) but most PC Thieves do not have the skill points to devote to this stuff.
6. Lock Picking: Might be handy, but really of no use to a Detective, unless good PvM missions were added, and then you might need it to infiltrate a Thieves Den or Murderers House.
7. Detect Hidden: This could be expanded to find clues, not just find people who are hidden. It might let the detective locate a weapon that was hidden after the murder, or clues to the location of the criminal based on what was left on the body ("There's a bit of black mud and Bloodmoss on the victims clothes.... that can only mean the Fens of the Dead!").
8. Spirit Speak - Speak to the ghost victim or dead body of an NPC victim. Could result in a positive ID/witness count.
9. Evaluate Intelligence - By evaluating the target, you might get a bonus to offense or defense when attempting to arrest them. Get inside their head and all that.

Only a short list, but those are kind of my thoughts. If the skills could be expanded instead of removed or restricted, then a whole world of PvM missions and adventures could be created! Magical skills could work to track down magical criminals, and the town guard could hire detectives to solve crimes in the city! Caves that sit unused (north of Britain for instance) can become dens of criminals. Houses can be placed in empty lots that appear to belong to a PC but actually belongs to a criminal (would decay right after the criminal was caught). This is an excellent idea and I would be pretty sad if it was developed for PvP purposes instead of PvM. The possibilities are limitless in PvM.

I'd like to see NPC 'Reds' also have more of a variable skill level. Why can't a Gypsy be a GM Swordsman? How come Brigands are all the same? Some should be tougher and some wimpier! These guys are the most likely candidates for our PvM villains, let's see if we can't beef them up where appropriate!

Criminals that you track in towns/cities should somehow be flagged so neither they nor you get guard whacked when you are working to apprehend them....

*** As a side note, I am a large advocate of improving skills, not removing them. They had a purpose once, there was a vision for them all. I encourage the development team to get that vision back and make our skills worth the points. All of them!

And another thing! I encourage everyone to read some of the ideas that this guy had (look specifically at the treasure hunter stuff, which could be translated into detective work as well):

http://www.aschulze.net/ultima/blog/blog_20100513.htm

I don't agree with all of his points, but this fellow made some excellent suggestions and had some great ideas! It's a shame we lost him, I would have loved to have adventured with him and had him included in this discussion.

 

[G.v.P]

if the detective template needs 560 skill points just to pursue he is not going to be able to do any apprehending.

If apprehension is the death of the thief then I don't see why combat skills shouldn't give a bonus to the core of Tracking and "Criminal Investigation" (if that scenario ever happened). I mean, when's the last time you used Anatomy or Eval Int on someone, other than to gain skill at low levels (even though you can just spam it till 100 on a horse for skill gain)? I haven't actively used Anatomy or Eval Int since probably T2A, back when you'd actually use those skills to see how much STR, DEX, and INT your opponent was going to have in PvP. Nowadays you can just pretty much guarantee everyone will have 45 DCI, all 70s, max everything, hehe.

and if you go with making the companion skills things like anatomy or evaluate intelligence... those are skills most fighters or mages are going to have anyways. so it's a bit of a moot issue. buuut then you box people into predictable templates. which is how i feel with mine.... a little boxed.

If 520 free points is boxing someone in then I don't know what to tell ya. Your char only has 420 free points maximum right now. You either go mage and try to take advantage of the thieves who don't have magic resist or you go archer for moving shot....or you could go pure necro and speak with ghosts, mystic mage for burst damage...a dexxer, even a tamer maybe...it's pretty open ended with 520 free points.

you'll fail tracking several times in a row against a good stealther, and that it takes 11 seconds in between tracks, it can take up to a minute to find someone when yer playing the guessing game.

Which is why I suggested an auto-queue if you're able to reveal, use anatomy or eval int (for example) actively on the target, then after the target hides or runs off the target system would auto-track regardless of form if given the right parameters, like 100 anat, 100 detect, and 100 tracking, with a curse-like duration perhaps. Would perhaps make the chase more exciting for both sides. But a lot to balance.

the thought of tracking being over powered amuses me greatly.

Well, earlier you complained about how ineffective tracking currently is. I'm offering the idea of a bonus via certain skills, while thinking, I wouldn't want the bonus to be only from the combination of tracking plus "criminal investigation," because that'll breed annoying templates like tamer archers w/o anatomy or eval, or mystic tamers, etc. Hm. So my refined approach would be to limit a bonus perhaps to Anat/Eval as to avoid certain gimp templates which would nerf non-thief stealthers.

obviously if my detective runs into a couple of skilled pk's he is going down, but the template should at least be able to have a chance against a thug.

With 200 skill dedication versus 300, the odds of survivability against a group won't improve too much versus full on PvP templates. But the ability to have full healing and magic resist will certainly help. If the objective is to kill a thief, though, the goal has to be tools to reveal the thief, track the thief, and burst the thief down, which is very difficult given the HPR players can stack, egg bombs, ninjitsu form, and all that.

All of the above skills need to be given a viable and useful place in the game. There is no reason to remove skills; that's a backward slide. We need to make them have a reason for being and that is a challenge that I think the development team is up for.

While I don't disagree with your list of improvements, I feel as if one of the problems detectives have--faction based or otherwise--is a tight template. If you make each skill viable on its own then perhaps it will give each skill more purpose, but then the template will still be tight if not tighter. You'd have to soulstone to do PvM detective work then soulstone to do PvP detective work. The merger idea wouldn't remove the skills, it would simply group them into a "spellbook" like setting in which the function of every skill in the collection could be triggered individually. Of course, they would be abilities rather than spells, without any kind of mana cost or the like, but perhaps with a "wait for skill" timer if applicable.

 

[Ned888]

While I don't disagree with your list of improvements, I feel as if one of the problems detectives have--faction based or otherwise--is a tight template. If you make each skill viable on its own then perhaps it will give each skill more purpose, but then the template will still be tight if not tighter. You'd have to soulstone to do PvM detective work then soulstone to do PvP detective work. The merger idea wouldn't remove the skills, it would simply group them into a "spellbook" like setting in which the function of every skill in the collection could be triggered individually. Of course, they would be abilities rather than spells, without any kind of mana cost or the like, but perhaps with a "wait for skill" timer if applicable.

I fully agree, it IS a tight template, but so is a treasure hunter. The idea behind my... idea is that you can't do it by yourself! You need to either have several detectives who specialize in a few skills each (i.e. - a box man, a forensics guy and a medical investigator for example) OR you need to get a support team to go with you. You do the detecting and your warrior and mage keep you alive and kicking! Everyone benefits and it's a team sport.

I guess I've not been too clear on this, but I really want things to get back to being a team sport, and not because the mobs are overwelmingly powerful, but because we need each other. I'm not suggesting roles (The Trinity thing can go scratch for all I care) per se, but no one can or should be able to do it all on their own. You need your friends and your guildies to help you complete missions.

Oh, and as I tried to clarify before but was probably unsuccessful there too: You would need Forensic Evaluation in order to access the special abilities associated with say Anatomy when it comes to detective work. A healer without FE would be a damned good healer, but he wouldn't pick up the clues that a Detective would. A Blacksmith with GM Armslore would make awesome weapons, but wouldn't be able to access the information that a Detective would with the same skill. I am suggesting that a synergy of skills is required to achieve the full value of a skill. Anatomy is a skill that would do one thing for Healers, another thing for Warriors and a third thing for Detectives depending on who used it. If you happen to have skills in all three things, then you could access all three specials, otherwise you only have access for the ones you have synergy with.

I have a lot of ideas about how the synergys would work, with primary and secondary skills. I am typing up the idea to get it fully formed and I'll be submitting it to the boards when it's ready. Hopefully soon.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I think you have to be a Detective to find this thread. I was thinking something like taking the skills and just adding different bonuses that any character can benefit from, such as, extra hit points, defense chance, something that would stack.

I think that would help make the skill more appealing just for those reasons but then you think about Forensics. One of the things, i'm thinking is, Anatomy. Like a doctor cutting open a body to do an autopsy. So, maybe, if a character had healing and had Forensics, the Forensics could take the place of Anatomy. So, then you would have some type of linking system.

So, if one skill is used there could be 3 different skills that would work with that but depending on the type of character you have or the different skills it would benefit in a different way. So, if you didn't have Healing and Forensics, maybe you could have Forensics and Alchemy or Forensics and Scribe. Then each skill set would create a type of goal.

If the same thing could be done in teams, for example: If I had Carpentry and somebody else had Smith, then we could build a Carpentry/Smith item but it's those types of linking that I think would help make the skill system better and i'm really interested in hearing about The Synergy.

 

[G.v.P]

I fully agree, it IS a tight template, but so is a treasure hunter. The idea behind my... idea is that you can't do it by yourself! You need to either have several detectives who specialize in a few skills each (i.e. - a box man, a forensics guy and a medical investigator for example) OR you need to get a support team to go with you. You do the detecting and your warrior and mage keep you alive and kicking! Everyone benefits and it's a team sport.

Gotcha. Team...hm. Well, like we've seen with pirates, the PvM side of your ideas should have a solid model (orc ship parts via party capture of a pirate) as far as team play goes . Perhaps could even put locked/trapped boxes on pirate ships, hehe ;P. I definitely think the devs could run with PvM ideas...not sure if they'd commit to a full-on PvP booster, but interesting ideas.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

 

[Ned888]

I've posted my plan! Let me know what you think! It's only for PvM as I am becoming more and more convinced that Thieves need a separate review and idea before any interaction can really be made.