Ultima Franchise

[Woodsman]

Who are the only people to profit from this ? Certainly not EA, the bled subscriptions to free servers, to wow... how boring has your Ultima gotten for people to consider WoW ?

There is a lot out there that isn't WoW. I ran into a lot of ex-UO players in EVE among other games.

Who is to profit, who knows. This is a rehash of other arguments, but perhaps it becomes more important in light of UO becoming a part of an Ultima franchise, whatever that may mean. At times I think it's EA deliberately not caring about UO maybe with some malice directed towards anything Origin-related, but having played a lot of MMOs and having followed Star Wars, I'm beginning to rethink things. EA is almost schizo in its treatment of UO. At times they seem willing to dump money into it, or rather not take as much out of it, at other times they'll chop the team down at a time when it can't really afford it or they'll pull back on something for fear of upsetting things.

The top of EA, the people with the most pull, a lot of them control or came out of groups built around constantly pushing out sequels and expansions. I'm talking all of the sports stuff, I'm talking the Battlefield stuff, the Sims stuff. These are games that are handled the complete opposite of an MMO. They are built on deadlines, and they rely on meeting those deadlines, either because the material is dated (sports) or is crucial to their bottom lines in whatever quarters they need those games to roll out during. They are games that have very specific shelf life before being replaced by a similar version with different names on the jerseys or different graphics.

If you look at how UO2 was handled, how the various clients over the years were handled, and how Camelot was handled, I've slowly started changing my mind that the people at the top just hated Origin or were complete idiots, and have come around to the way of thinking that there was ignorance and an inability to understand MMOs coupled with a fear of screwing with a steady income stream.

Things kind of started to change with Warhammer. They were dumping anywhere from $50 million to $100 million into it, seemed very serious about it, had their devs out there talking to everybody, seemed to be trying to build a community, but it turned into one of the most spectacular implosions of an MMO ever. There's a lot of reasons why it did fail, but I think the biggest one is it should have had more dev time and perhaps more developers - too many things were left out. There were other serious problems, but it clearly shipped too early.

Star Wars makes me think they may finally understand MMOs. They've let the shipping dates slip a lot, they've based the release date on certain criteria that are to be met during beta testing and not because some executive says it has to go out during a certain quarter. They ramped up the development team - I've seen it reported that anywhere from 800-1000 people working on it, plus who knows how many they've borrowed. For reference, Blizzard has 4,000 people working on WoW, including 2,000+ in some kind of support capacity. They've built an entire support center, the one in Ireland, just for BioWare, mostly to help them support Star Wars. There are things being done for Star Wars that were not done for UO or Warhammer, not even close.

That brings me back to what does it mean for UO to be a part of a franchise, and does this turnaround in how they are handling MMOs with Star Wars indicate they might try and boost the other three MMOs? Unless we missed it, they haven't been hiring new people for UO.

It would be nice to see an Ultima franchise producer's letter

 

[Evlar]

I'd love to see a big community moment like the end of Haven again, not so much watching a town get blown up but something to make a community come together. We dont always need to hunt monsters for shineys sometimes we can make a great moment with just some people.

Perhaps what I miss the most, certainly from the first several years of playing UO.

I've never really been bothered about the graphics, though any improvements will always be seen as a bonus.

Gameplay, community, interaction, imagination have always been the mainstays of what I enjoyed most about UO.

There's still certainly pockets of that around today (or were when I left about a year or so ago), but would I be wrong in saying, the apparent item-centric nature of the game has lead to a lack of gameplay, community, interaction?

Obviously I no longer play on "official" shards, but I still do dabble on "unofficial", player created/run shards. Sure, there's "items", as there always has been in UO, but I play pre-AOS where they don't really mean so much. The depth of gameplay, community, interaction, imagination is much deeper. Incidentally, that's on shards that offer pre- and post-Trammel rule-sets. Players aren't chasing after the latest pixel crack or latest "trendy" uber items... they're just playing a game, having fun and letting their imaginations run wild.

As ever though, I watch with keen interest, what has been happening and what is going to happen with the Ultima "franchise", with a particular emphasis towards the Ultima Online part of the equation.

I'm sure many other former players are too.

Particularly of interest to me, will be what direction the game is headed. The mechanics of the game as are, the importance of items, they're things that turn me off unfortunately. Would lesser importance of items help the game going forward, or do people thing that things have gone to far for a more "back to basics" approach?

What can be done to attract former players and new players to the game?

Note: Incidentally, UO is/was the only MMO I've ever really played. Sure, I've tried other games... for a week or so at most... but nothing ever captured my imagination like UO. Hence why my only current UO activity is on player run shards.

 

[Zosimus]

Things kind of started to change with Warhammer. They were dumping anywhere from $50 million to $100 million into it, seemed very serious about it, had their devs out there talking to everybody, seemed to be trying to build a community, but it turned into one of the most spectacular implosions of an MMO ever. There's a lot of reasons why it did fail, but I think the biggest one is it should have had more dev time and perhaps more developers - too many things were left out. There were other serious problems, but it clearly shipped too early

I dont know of you played War or not Woodsman but I did and dove head first into playing it. I played many classes and was in one of the top guilds. It was a blast at first. We had GM service if an issues occured. The game didnt seem to unbalancing. The game felt like it had a healthy heart beat.

Then it slowly occured to many of us that heartbeat was not so healthy. There was many classes that was unbalanced the higher levels you got. Fortress battles were epic but many would crash. There were mutiple chains of stuns being used by characters and classes that was stacking up. Some classes were overpowered by items that was made. GM service just vanished into thin air.

I could go on and on but eventually the game just kind of flatlined. We felt abandoned by the devs. Many of us just felt it fell on deaf ears when we complained.

Did they do some great things in WAR? Yes they did. I wont deny that. Truly Mythic (at that time they made WAR) should of focused more on DaoC. Now that game was epic. WAR was an extension of it but they imo, they missed out by improving on a game they already had. DaoC was just epic over all and could be improved but WAR was a poorly put together DaoC 2. I hate to even associate DaoC with WAR but in truth it was just a graphics change of DaOC itself slapped with a WAR sticker and a few changes. Some changes was for the better but most changes were bad.

DaoC RvR > WAR RvR

DaoC PvE > WAR PvE

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Gameplay, community, interaction, imagination have always been the mainstays of what I enjoyed most about UO.

There's still certainly pockets of that around today (or were when I left about a year or so ago), but would I be wrong in saying, the apparent item-centric nature of the game has lead to a lack of gameplay, community, interaction?

I think in a way you'd be incorrect. There have always been those "pockets" of which you speak that have appeared and disappeared over the course of time for one reason or another. 14 years is a LONG time to be playing the same game and a lot of people who built up those early communities left for many many reasons including, but by no means limited to the "itemness" of the game.

UO has always had an item-based nature in some form or fashion be it your Vanq Katana or Invuln armor, your server-rares or your uniquely colored clothes. AOS did change it, but it didn't "introduce it" nor can it be seen as a main factor in the change in UO's demographic.

A lot of people simply lost the drive they had at the beginning to be a community builder. Maybe it's because the people that were around had left or that they "grew up" in a certain way and their life simply changed focus.

To be honest, going into the various reasons as to the difference of the UO community pre-2000 and the community of 2011 would probably be on par with a doctoral thesis in psychology and sociology.

The end-result question is what do you (as a general term for the reader, not just Evlar) want out of UO. What drives you in playing the game? Then go out and find it or create it.

The new client (KR/EC) has in effect given the game as a whole (including the 2d client) a very powerful tool in helping to build community events through the global chat system. Being able to advertise community events helps those events be more open to people who want to seek them out, but may not know where exactly to find them. I know it is used quite often on LS for weekly events (via Airmid and crew) as well as calls for Mysticism circles, player to player sales/trades, and so on (well in between the PvP "chatter" anyway).

UO is still a very open game. It really is what you make of it, and the item-based nature is really only as pervasive as you let it be for yourself.

 

[Woodsman]

Then it slowly occured to many of us that heartbeat was not so healthy. There was many classes that was unbalanced the higher levels you got. Fortress battles were epic but many would crash. There were mutiple chains of stuns being used by characters and classes that was stacking up. Some classes were overpowered by items that was made. GM service just vanished into thin air.

I did play and I was enthusiastic at first, but it seemed like the longer I played, the more unfinished it was and the more grindy it was, which they promised it wouldn't be. I like your idea that they should have sunk the money into Camelot, because I can't imagine what Camelot could have become with those kinds of resources. Instead they split the same group of players between Warhammer and Camelot and wasted a lot of money on licensing. EA got about 75% of the way there with Warhammer, but they pushed it out too early and it cost them dearly. In a way, I think Stygian Abyss was released about 6 months too early as well. EA just does that with its MMOs or their expansions - either too early or not enough support.

They've changed their tune with Star Wars and I hope they will change it with UO at some point. Warhammer is getting arenas, Camelot is getting some kind of rebuilt new user experience. UO is supposed to be getting things that will draw in new players as well. It seems like they are trying to draw people to the games.

 

[Zosimus]

...

Gameplay, community, interaction, imagination have always been the mainstays of what I enjoyed most about UO.

There's still certainly pockets of that around today (or were when I left about a year or so ago), but would I be wrong in saying, the apparent item-centric nature of the game has lead to a lack of gameplay, community, interaction?

I think in a way you'd be incorrect. There have always been those "pockets" of which you speak that have appeared and disappeared over the course of time for one reason or another. 14 years is a LONG time to be playing the same game and a lot of people who built up those early communities left for many many reasons including, but by no means limited to the "itemness" of the game.

UO has always had an item-based nature in some form or fashion be it your Vanq Katana or Invuln armor, your server-rares or your uniquely colored clothes. AOS did change it, but it didn't "introduce it" nor can it be seen as a main factor in the change in UO's demographic.

A lot of people simply lost the drive they had at the beginning to be a community builder. Maybe it's because the people that were around had left or that they "grew up" in a certain way and their life simply changed focus.

To be honest, going into the various reasons as to the difference of the UO community pre-2000 and the community of 2011 would probably be on par with a doctoral thesis in psychology and sociology.

The end-result question is what do you (as a general term for the reader, not just Evlar) want out of UO. What drives you in playing the game? Then go out and find it or create it.

The new client (KR/EC) has in effect given the game as a whole (including the 2d client) a very powerful tool in helping to build community events through the global chat system. Being able to advertise community events helps those events be more open to people who want to seek them out, but may not know where exactly to find them. I know it is used quite often on LS for weekly events (via Airmid and crew) as well as calls for Mysticism circles, player to player sales/trades, and so on (well in between the PvP "chatter" anyway).

UO is still a very open game. It really is what you make of it, and the item-based nature is really only as pervasive as you let it be for yourself.

I will say on my behalf on the part I expanded above in this quote, miss alot of the interaction UO once had. There was many things I have tried to create some of that missed interaction. It may work for a while but as the community and shard population keep getting smaller it becomes more work then fun.

The days I would log in, go run down a few houses down from my house and instantly buy every poison katanas from this guys vendor in front of his house. Hell yeah I was excited if the vendors was full. I was disapointed if he had not restocked yet but waited patiently util he did.

The guys next door to me from Nova Scotia that would see me out mining around our house that would offer to buy my ingots. I had soem good conversations with them and great neighbors to have. Sometimes we would trade resources if one needed this or that.

The vendor I would run to on my warrior for armor. I would load up on his GM plate armor at least once every 2 weeks. He be there sometimes and we talk. I would tell him I hit his house every 2 weeks for armor. He made me a special price on silver weps for me since I was always buying his armor.

Point is from all aboveis that back then we had a community. We depended on each other. Now days we dont depend on each other. We can make all our stuff we need. If ya need somethign you cant make you go to Luna and shop. If you are not in Luna it's hard to compete sometimes. You have to cosntantly advertise to get business. It becomes work yet again just to have a shop.

With insurance, powder of fort, and no dependency on others as much .......what does UO community really have left? Besides the pixel EM events that bring a large mass of players together as a community. Is it just for the comradery that these masses come? Is it for the chance to get that "rare" pixel? Some will say one or the other but in truth we as a community failed ourselves.

We let the devs give, give, and give us item dependent pixels and we took, took, and took them. We sacraficed what truly made UO for power, greed, and pixel dependency.

People do try to have player run events. It works for some but the real event UO once had is lost. We should never be allowed to solo monsters that where groups of people were once needed. The days for looking and exploring the lands for good deals or new mobs to fight are gone.

Does the word community still mean what UO had 12 years ago? 10 years? 8 Years? 5 years?

I have met many ex uo players in other games. We have discussed things we felt that has changed and why they left. A player can try and try to put back into UO what they want out of it. If there isnt enough players with the same likes as them they lose interest and move on. Hard to create what was taken away and lost a long time ago.

Btw, This is not definetly about a classic shard, or a certain era of the game.

 

[Zosimus]

I did play and I was enthusiastic at first, but it seemed like the longer I played, the more unfinished it was and the more grindy it was, which they promised it wouldn't be. I like your idea that they should have sunk the money into Camelot, because I can't imagine what Camelot could have become with those kinds of resources. Instead they split the same group of players between Warhammer and Camelot and wasted a lot of money on licensing. EA got about 75% of the way there with Warhammer, but they pushed it out too early and it cost them dearly. In a way, I think Stygian Abyss was released about 6 months too early as well. EA just does that with its MMOs or their expansions - either too early or not enough support.

They've changed their tune with Star Wars and I hope they will change it with UO at some point. Warhammer is getting arenas, Camelot is getting some kind of rebuilt new user experience. UO is supposed to be getting things that will draw in new players as well. It seems like they are trying to draw people to the games.

EA needs to learn one impotant thing. To keep players playing, they need to keep an active dedicated GM service to "each" game under their brand. When you lose that service or have very little of it, players dont stay long when constant issues are not addressed. If EA does the same to SWTOR as they have with every other game EA controls then it will become a flop.

*whispers in EA's ear* Warhammer online...warhammer online...warhammer online....

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I agree with what you stated Zosimus, there is an issue due to the reduction in numbers in general and that it's not about a classic shard or any such, it's that things have changed from what we were first drawn in with.

When I first started UO, the East bank of Britain was a very active spot (not as active as West, but it had its own group of people) as well as the East woods (mainly for PvM) and the Crossroads (mainly for PvP/PKing). Now they are ALL empty. The banks moved to Luna, Crossroads gave way to Yew gate, and without a COMPLETE revamp of monster loot, the focus has changed significantly from where it used to be "in the old days".

I agree with you on the problem that Luna brings in terms of running a shop in UO and have been an advocate of a central search system within the game itself to allow people to run their shops where they wish again (consider that Luna has not only the type of city it is but an external search website that targets it as well).

Myself, I snagged what was at the time a prime spot on Covetous mountain in Trammel when housing opened up and set up an open porch with a table with all the various special dye tubs as well as a forge for passing by miners.

(an older picture, but it gets the idea across)

Yes, for a while it got a decent amount of people dropping by, but since then, most of the houses in the area have long since vanished and now it's rare that I see anyone near the house at all anymore.

But it still comes down to the point that if all we ever do is post here about the lack of community and do nothing about it, we shouldn't be surprised if there isn't a community anymore.

It would be interesting to see what people actually want out of the game and out of the community, what would bring people together more often and so forth that isn;t happening now.

Has UO become physically too big for its population (not in terms of shard consolidation, but in terms of landmass on a given shard), and if so, what do the devs do to try and regain lost population and what do we do as player to try and bring back the community to help in bringing back players?

 

[canary]

But it still comes down to the point that if all we ever do is post here about the lack of community and do nothing about it, we shouldn't be surprised if there isn't a community anymore.

The thing is that you assume people post and then do nothing about it... but in truth many of the posters I know do indeed do many things for the community (myself included).

It just comes down to the fact there are less people to draw to any community functions.

 

[Woodsman]

We need new players and something new for the community. If we get the graphics stuff, that'll start the process of bringing new people in or vets back.

Community. What are the big in-game events? EM events. The Japanese team has their EM events right there on UltimaOnline.jp, while we have to search either Google or poke through UOGuide to find EM blogs that aren't even on the main herald website and aren't even linked there. I've seen a lot of poorly attended EM events or I see the same people over and over, and I come across people all the time that have no clue that there are events going on. My shard has one next friday but it's a pain in the ass for me to find them for other shards.

The average UO player will not find their shard's EM site, guaranteed. Go to the herald and you won't see squat. Go to UOEM.net to find an index to all of the UOEM.net EM blogs, and you get The Japanese team, they have after-action reports and screenshots for some of their stuff.

I'm looking through the T2A stuff that was posted on UOJ - UO’s 14th Anniversary: The Second Age – Delucia in the Papua | UOJournal.com and I found this which reminded me of UO from the old days:


Ultima Online: The Second Age on Flickr

Unfortunately they chose to upload several small versions that you can't read and then a huge version that is bigger than both of my displays. They must have confused it with their huge 5000x5000 maps of Britain or the 3000x2000 Hildebrandt print, instead of something that people would actually read, but anyways.

The point stands, while that photo is pure marketing and not much of a basis in reality, we had the actual UO website contributing to a community with real establishment and event stuff listed, like UO Japan does, yes UO Japan features establishments.

I don't speak Japanese and Google Translator lets me down a lot, but the Japanese UO community is being engaged from what I can read. We're left hanging out there. The Star Wars team is engaging it's community, much like Blizzard does with WoW. The Mythic teams, no. We're all in our own little worlds and forums.

I had to go digging through the herald just to find out what the last story arc event was for another thread. I can't imagine what a vet or new player thinks when they see the herald.

 

[Woodsman]

It just comes down to the fact there are less people to draw to any community functions.

Which is why it becomes even more crucial to bring in new players and for the herald to feature those events, whether they are EM or player events.

I won't argue that some of the fault lies with the players when it comes to the community as a whole, but outside of Japan, EA sure as hell is not doing anything to encourage a community.

HD2300 was saying that EMs were getting paid to post or something weird, but while I strongly doubt that EA pays them to post outside of their EM blogs, it's an idea. Pay them an extra hour a week or however that works, to post about their events on the Herald. I guarantee attendance would go up. They don't even have to do that - Kai Schober could just take the EM blog postings and put them on the herald somewhere or take an RSS feed and have it displayed on the herald. Atlantic's EM just posted on their blog. That is something that would show up somewhere on the herald within minutes.

EA is not going to do that though, so I would suggest that everybody start advertising their EM events in GC when the time gets close, because that's the only way people are going to find out.

 

[Triberius]

Does the word community still mean what UO had 12 years ago? 10 years? 8 Years? 5 years?

Of course it doesn't. Does community still mean the same thing in your neighborhood that it did 40 or 50 years ago? For a lot of us I bet not. It's the same thing just on a smaller scale. Things change the world around us changes and we change with it. What hasn't changed is UO, it's not really evolved over time like the rest of us have.

You can say that they'd released this expansion or that expansion, AoS or High Seas etc, and yes they changed things, but the core of the game hasn't really changed, it's still plugging right along with the same principles of design it had 14 years ago.

I've said it before and I'll say it again I can not think of any of the early era MMO's that has been so stagnate when it comes to change, and come to think of it, I can not think of a single game community that is so bone-headed when it to contemplating change.

I don't mean this in a completely negative way, it shows loyalty to the product and exactly how good the foundation the game was built on is. But at the same time people have to realize that they can't hold on to yesterday.

Lets look at some early era MMO's, and see how they've evolved shall we?

Meridian59 - Still running believe it or not, and in 2004 the entire graphics engine was replaced, players had no option like with UO of a Classic or New graphics.

Everquest - Has had at least one mandatory graphics update, major class overhauls, and it's 2nd sequel "Everquest Next" is in development.

This shows 2 early MMO's have managed to keep things "fresh" in a sense. Either through sequels which allow players to take advantage of new technology while not replacing the old, or through mandatory updates.

Even newer MMO's mix things up a bit. Look at WoW's Cataclysm expansion. It changed to face of many of the existing areas dramatically, it keep players engaged.

Now for UO...

Brit still looks like it did the first time I logged on in 1999, with the exception of say the West Bank being decorated by Draconi a while back, and some event related stuff here and there. Most cities, exactly the same with Magincia being a notable exception. Lost lands.. same. Ilshenar... Ooo Champ Spawns other than that pretty much the same. Malas.. no major changes since inception... Tokuno.. Nope still the same...

Sosaria is simply becoming a boring world, while we live and breath, grow older and change it doesn't. The change in community reflects that.

 

[canary]

We need new players and something new for the community. If we get the graphics stuff, that'll start the process of bringing new people in or vets back.

Community. What are the big in-game events? EM events. The Japanese team has their EM events right there on UltimaOnline.jp, while we have to search either Google or poke through UOGuide to find EM blogs that aren't even on the main herald website and aren't even linked there. I've seen a lot of poorly attended EM events or I see the same people over and over, and I come across people all the time that have no clue that there are events going on. My shard has one next friday but it's a pain in the ass for me to find them for other shards.

The average UO player will not find their shard's EM site, guaranteed. Go to the herald and you won't see squat. Go to UOEM.net to find an index to all of the UOEM.net EM blogs, and you get The Japanese team, they have after-action reports and screenshots for some of their stuff.

Most shards have events when they have events, and that does indeed hurt the 'average gamer' who has no clue what is going on.

GL has a great EM in Malachi, who consistently holds EM events starting at the Counselors Guild every Tuesday. It makes it much easier to say 'Oh yeah, it's Tuesday, must be the EM event'. I have also heard great things about Bennu on Atlantic.

Other shards are less fortunate with EMs in this regard. If you arent consistent, it definitely impacts the amount of people that will be involved.

Truth is, though, we aren't going to get new players due to EM events. You typically see the same people at the events. To add to that, there are many who are aware of EM events but simply not interested.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

I did play and I was enthusiastic at first, but it seemed like the longer I played, the more unfinished it was and the more grindy it was, which they promised it wouldn't be. I like your idea that they should have sunk the money into Camelot, because I can't imagine what Camelot could have become with those kinds of resources. Instead they split the same group of players between Warhammer and Camelot and wasted a lot of money on licensing.

Is it me or we have a pattern here ?

UO = Camelot right ?

UO = dragonlance = lord of the rings ... virtuous games by design (what they became is another story)

Warhammer = WoW = star wars =

war war war... what is it good for ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING !!!

Take it however you want... wars are used to split the communities of virtuous games ?!

I know my logic is sound, it would be in the real world... but there's more to it isn't it ?

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Most shards have events when they have events, and that does indeed hurt the 'average gamer' who has no clue what is going on.

GL has a great EM in Malachi, who consistently holds EM events starting at the Counselors Guild every Tuesday. It makes it much easier to say 'Oh yeah, it's Tuesday, must be the EM event'. I have also heard great things about Bennu on Atlantic.

Other shards are less fortunate with EMs in this regard. If you arent consistent, it definitely impacts the amount of people that will be involved.

Truth is, though, we aren't going to get new players due to EM events. You typically see the same people at the events. To add to that, there are many who are aware of EM events but simply not interested.

Thats only because the story isn't true to the Ultima series... if it were true and well built the "same people" would have something interesting to show their friends.

Right now I wouldn't even think of having one of my friends witness me (even less having him buy the game and join us) at an EM event *play siege anyways* it just dosen't do it.

But thats okay, the real story has never ended, and many still remember where it was left at.

Oh of course it's virtuous, full of it, we have to make room for something like that...

 

[Zosimus]

Of course it doesn't. Does community still mean the same thing in your neighborhood that it did 40 or 50 years ago? For a lot of us I bet not. It's the same thing just on a smaller scale. Things change the world around us changes and we change with it. What hasn't changed is UO, it's not really evolved over time like the rest of us have..

UO has evolved and has changed. I understand your point and what you are talking about. The game itself has changed ( where players are more/mostly dependent on themselves) while the core parts has not changed.

You can say that they'd released this expansion or that expansion, AoS or High Seas etc, and yes they changed things, but the core of the game hasn't really changed, it's still plugging right along with the same principles of design it had 14 years ago.

The same principles of that design has long been perverted in todays current UO. In this quote from RG himself about UO...

It's that lack of differentiation in experience and jobs that Garriott misses. "There aren't really people that own a shop in town square and that's what they do, and they have a friend who's a fishermen, and that's what he does," he explained. "With Ultima Online, what was so cool about it is that there were people who were just fishermen, and who never fought monsters, who didn't care to buy any armor or craft a sword—they were fishermen."

That what UO was about. It's still can be done today but how many fish shops do we see in UO? lol How about the blacksmith that makes metal armor? Dont see many of those specialty shops around anymore. Oh you will see armor vendors in Luna made by runics and such just not the old Mom & Pop stores. UO has Walmarts now.

Also this quote he says....

"What Ultima Online did very well, and what I think has never been recaptured, is allow you to become a citizen of that world in a very personal and relevant way that is unique to you and not like anyone else," he told Ars. "As brilliant as World of WarCraft is—of course it's an astonishingly well-done product—but everyone is pretty much a fighter. Your life is, you're a fighter."

He is right about other games not capturing UO. Some have come close and others with some of the concepts but none has captured UO. The last sentence about WoW though rings more true in UO today. Most characters can defend themselves solo. Sampire anyone?

I've said it before and I'll say it again I can not think of any of the early era MMO's that has been so stagnate when it comes to change, and come to think of it, I can not think of a single game community that is so bone-headed when it to contemplating change..

Ah I do believe in change. I agree with you that some do not like change but my points in my other post was more about how community interacted back then more then it does now in UO. Change can be good if done right. I dont expect UO to be perfect and every change is right or wrong. Depends on the player. I think gradual change is the best way to keep an old MMO going.

For example. Lets say the devs had added farming and skills that were added to the game was called Farmer ( blah I'm tired couldnt think of something funny or more elaborate lol) Uo already has herding, add a few more botany skills in with it. They added a land content that could be farmed by players wanting to farm. Players could pay in gold for a spot. The farmer could grow plants and food needed for everyday uses in the game. Other players couldnt steal from that farmer lands , but savages can raid him. They are not overly powerful but since he has the skill (farmer) he can defend his plot of land with a pitch fork.

Loot on monsters and bosses as another example. Loot from them should never be better then what a crafter can make. They can have ingredients or special drops that can contribute to items being made. Make the drops random and by monster type. So many "X" amount of items to make special armor and weps. Let the players be able to make certain artifacts wepeons that are not to powerful but also not to weak and uselss.

I don't mean this in a completely negative way, it shows loyalty to the product and exactly how good the foundation the game was built on is. But at the same time people have to realize that they can't hold on to yesterday.

I agree and none negativity taken. As I said above change is good but should be done gradually.

Lets look at some early era MMO's, and see how they've evolved shall we?

Meridian59 - Still running believe it or not, and in 2004 the entire graphics engine was replaced, players had no option like with UO of a Classic or New graphics.

Everquest - Has had at least one mandatory graphics update, major class overhauls, and it's 2nd sequel "Everquest Next" is in development.

This shows 2 early MMO's have managed to keep things "fresh" in a sense. Either through sequels which allow players to take advantage of new technology while not replacing the old, or through mandatory updates.

Even newer MMO's mix things up a bit. Look at WoW's Cataclysm expansion. It changed to face of many of the existing areas dramatically, it keep players engaged.

I totally agree with you.You have to add changes into MMO's or they wont be around to long. My issue was more about how UO as a community has becomre more isolated from each other then a growing community together. The dependence on each other and interaction is lacking.

Now for UO...

Brit still looks like it did the first time I logged on in 1999, with the exception of say the West Bank being decorated by Draconi a while back, and some event related stuff here and there. Most cities, exactly the same with Magincia being a notable exception. Lost lands.. same. Ilshenar... Ooo Champ Spawns other than that pretty much the same. Malas.. no major changes since inception... Tokuno.. Nope still the same...

Sosaria is simply becoming a boring world, while we live and breath, grow older and change it doesn't. The change in community reflects that.

This is very important and you made an excellent point. Things just dont change with the cities or land itself. Players should be able to contribute resources and change the face of cities. More like updating them graphically in a sense.

Crazy idea and not really sound but Im just tossing it out to be totally torn apart and be told I am an idiot lol.....The DEVS add a construction type skills to the game and you can donate some resources and actual time to help create newer buildings. This again is gradual. You will see the building to start changing but not instantly. It is gradual by change. Also to keep the new look of the buildings, resources shoud be donated and stockpiled in a city warehouse.

Now lets say the orcs, ogres and trolls raid these cities from time to time to steal these stockpiles. Players defend these cities if they want to help save the warehouse or not. If they dont the invaders steal these dontations. Now if players do defend and help they beat back the attackers they save the resources.

In the end you dont get any new shiny new pixles or rare item for helping. You just played the game.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

I have been mentioning the lack of "mason" work for a few months now... I think its crucial we not be boxed by some LOTTO PLOTS

 

[Kayne]

UO has evolved and has changed. I understand your point and what you are talking about. The game itself has changed ( where players are more/mostly dependent on themselves) while the core parts has not changed.

This is very important and you made an excellent point. Things just dont change with the cities or land itself. Players should be able to contribute resources and change the face of cities. More like updating them graphically in a sense.

Crazy idea and not really sound but Im just tossing it out to be totally torn apart and be told I am an idiot lol.....The DEVS add a construction type skills to the game and you can donate some resources and actual time to help create newer buildings. This again is gradual. You will see the building to start changing but not instantly. It is gradual by change. Also to keep the new look of the buildings, resources shoud be donated and stockpiled in a city warehouse.

Now lets say the orcs, ogres and trolls raid these cities from time to time to steal these stockpiles. Players defend these cities if they want to help save the warehouse or not. If they dont the invaders steal these dontations. Now if players do defend and help they beat back the attackers they save the resources.

In the end you dont get any new shiny new pixles or rare item for helping. You just played the game.

I've cut loads of your post out in the quote however I couldn't find anything to disagree with. This is the most sense I've seen in Uhall for a while.

Your idea of resources to build new buildings and fund maintenance was exactly the one I mentioned in another topic here just a few days ago. I love the idea of trolls and ogres raiding (again a suggestion i made somewhere) as they are the most likely to have the sense being humanoid to do exactly that.

I also agree that fundamentally the problem is that we don't need each other anymore. We don't need that random person running by to save our backside from being stomped all over by a marauding ogre or set on fire by a dragon.

We also just don't need to interact to get new armor from that Legendary Smith at Brit smith, we can just run up to an anonymous vendor and pick up our new imbued suit which fits with the latest craze of template - was tamers then it became archers and now its sampires.

I remember that great feeling when I got my first Arti 11 - now I probably wouldn't even blink because its just another item. I've got countless Arties of both major and minor variety but I just collected them rather than farmed them. I had fun getting most of them too but as a side effect of hunting blood ellies in ilsh rather than setting out to get them.

I also made a suggestion a few years back on here, for a small 6x6 size garden plot you could have in addition to a house that grew either food or the reagents that would come from plant form. Ive seen this used in UO on freeshards and it would be great for those who like botany - now in UO this could also grow normal plants as a little garden separate from the house.

As you said there is no reason that farming skills cant be added to make use of herding, tracking, cooking, taste id, item id. Make farming a valid idea - its not like the game cant handle the growing of crops and plants already.

 

[Evlar]

I mentioned earlier about game mechanics possibly being (partly) responsible for changing how people play UO.

Interesting reading the posts with people elaborating on aspects of how certain game mechanics have indeed, done just that.

Perhaps it's difficult for me to put my finger exactly on the crux of the problem, or the exact points in time, whereby game mechanics lead to changes in the ways people play UO. Though some here have already touched on important areas where the gameplay mechanics, including the importance of items and the increasing self-sustainability of players, has inevitably had quite broad reaching consequences, when it comes to the four key words I mentioned previously...

Gameplay, community, interaction, imagination.

At the very peak of my enjoyment of UO, I would say that the need for interaction with other players, produced much more depth to gameplay possibilities, a larger community feel (not just in physical numbers of people actually playing), along with a great deal more imagination from players themselves.

I recall a time where more importance was placed on character skills and the characters themselves, rather than "items" or the pursuit of items.

Someone playing as a blacksmith, a carpenter, tailor, miner... all had their own identity. They were valued members of the community. Often many had built their reputations not only on the skill of their characters, but their skills interacting with other players.

Probably on all shards, you would see familiar faces, not just at one bank, smithy or mining area, but at many throughout the lands. Sometimes it would be an adventure in itself looking for a well known player, who might for example have been a blacksmith. You might see that blacksmith at one of the forges around a town, near the mountains, or at their house. Not just making his/her wares to sell or trade, but perhaps seeking miners to gather their materials, tutoring newer players in how to gain skills, or simply talking to passers by.

Throughout the lands, creatures were sufficiently challenging enough that one player wandering through an area or dungeon might not make it alone. In the Lich rooms at Covetous, a group of warriors and mages was always important to get through to the further levels. Visiting the Terethan Keep or the Ophidian Lair alone was suicide. But a small group of several players could just about fight their way through.

Getting to the end of a journey through a dungeon or area was a real achievement, but the real fun was the journey itself and the challenge before reaching the final destination. It often took careful planning, some strategy, teamwork and a slice of luck.

Naturally, with the introduction of new skills, new items, that could be combined with devastating effects, came the need for newer and more powerful creatures, with more lands to house them. Meanwhile, the original creatures, dungeons and would eventually become sparsely populated, mainly because of the lack of challenge they now offered players.

Likewise, the chances to gain even more powerful or valuable items, meant that the the aims of many players changed. If someone has a chance at a powerful item fighting a newer monster, why bother fighting the old ones?

Simply wandering the lands was fun in itself. Never knowing who or what was around the next corner, or bend in the road. Chance encounters with other players becoming more of a rarity, as players were more easily able to immediately teleport from one place to another.

Various deeds allowing instant repairs meant no need to search for a crafter. More character slots, ability to transfer skills from one character to another, instantly allowing everyone to have everything they need/want at their fingertips. Superior rewards being the desired weaponry, armour, wearable of choice, meaning once simple but effective smith or tailor made items were no longer required... thus meaning the desire to play as such a character passed by the wayside.

These are but a few of the things I think of when I refer to game mechanics having a profound effect on Gameplay, community, interaction, imagination.

Convenience...

It always seems a good idea at the time, but sometimes on reflection, such convenient additions don't come without sacrificing other things, that perhaps more of us than care to admit, realise.

Ultimately, when the majority of other players accept the conveniences that are provided, one often feels compelled to join them on the conveyor belt.

I know of course that it doesn't have to be that way. We can each play the game in many different ways individually, or as groups... and some to their credit, still do.

For me though, as fewer and fewer of the people I knew wanted to stay, directly or indirectly because of gameplay changes, community changes, interaction changes, the harder it became to stay myself.

I did try of course, always willing to throw myself into group events, either organising or participating. Sadly in the latter years, rather than just being a bit of fun, it often seemed that those organising events for other players to enjoy, had to offer something... items, gold, whatever... some incentive to attract players to their "event".

That just didn't sit well with me I'm afraid. When people give so generously of their own time and efforts, without forgetting that they too are paying to play the game, in an unselfish attempt to provide something that the game itself doesn't...

...that's when I wonder at what's left of the "community".

The flip side of the coin, in some events I was involved with, people were so engrossed with their pixel possessions, or some misguided idea of prestige at being a "leader" in a video game, bickering, accusations, arguments would result.

Situations like that, where the game itself had been compared to where it was now, damn awfully executed additions to the game (simply poor or unfinished a lot of the time), along with pretty much none existent customer support in the event of a genuine issue...

I started playing this game way back when, to have fun. The mechanics and the community changed sufficiently enough over the years that it was more of a chore than a pleasure to play.

I would love to see a back to basics approach taken. Grab UO by the scruff of the neck, shake off all the needless junk and crap. Sadly, I think it's gone too far for that.

Perhaps I spoke so strongly in favour of a "classic" option, when really, it wasn't perhaps a particular era I hoped to rediscover, but a particular way the game felt...

When for me at least, I believed there was great gameplay, community, interaction, imagination...

I've rambled enough and probably haven't made my thoughts any clearer. But there they are. Thankfully I've managed to rediscover some of what I miss on player run shards occasionally.

 

[Kayne]

Evlar having played alongside you in the latter years of your playing I know what you mean and I can't really say that I disagree with your post. You managed to sum up pretty well how most of us feel about UO and probably made many of us think about the encounters we've had

 

[Evlar]

Sadly Kayne, when I was playing Europa I was probably going through the motions, with one foot already out the exit door.

At that time, there were some fantastic people on the shard. Indeed, I do believe I saw more depth to the community there than I'd seen on other shards I'd played.

Unfortunately though, there were still many of the root problems with the game itself.

Sometimes it feels daft to think of a video game with such reverence, but having played for so long, it's always something I'll think about. Memories are memories afterall.

That's probably why from time to time, you'll find me still lurking around here, keeping an eye on how things are going.

 

[Kayne]

Been in much that situation, I got to a stage I logged in and never did anything because I wasn't really there anymore. Two breaks later and im back for another round.

 

[Zosimus]

I've cut loads of your post out in the quote however I couldn't find anything to disagree with. This is the most sense I've seen in Uhall for a while.

Your idea of resources to build new buildings and fund maintenance was exactly the one I mentioned in another topic here just a few days ago. I love the idea of trolls and ogres raiding (again a suggestion i made somewhere) as they are the most likely to have the sense being humanoid to do exactly that.

I also agree that fundamentally the problem is that we don't need each other anymore. We don't need that random person running by to save our backside from being stomped all over by a marauding ogre or set on fire by a dragon.

We also just don't need to interact to get new armor from that Legendary Smith at Brit smith, we can just run up to an anonymous vendor and pick up our new imbued suit which fits with the latest craze of template - was tamers then it became archers and now its sampires.

I remember that great feeling when I got my first Arti 11 - now I probably wouldn't even blink because its just another item. I've got countless Arties of both major and minor variety but I just collected them rather than farmed them. I had fun getting most of them too but as a side effect of hunting blood ellies in ilsh rather than setting out to get them.

I also made a suggestion a few years back on here, for a small 6x6 size garden plot you could have in addition to a house that grew either food or the reagents that would come from plant form. Ive seen this used in UO on freeshards and it would be great for those who like botany - now in UO this could also grow normal plants as a little garden separate from the house.

As you said there is no reason that farming skills cant be added to make use of herding, tracking, cooking, taste id, item id. Make farming a valid idea - its not like the game cant handle the growing of crops and plants already.

Thank you Kayne. Glad I am not the only person feels that way.

 

[Woodsman]

Is it me or we have a pattern here ?

UO = Camelot right ?

UO = dragonlance = lord of the rings ... virtuous games by design (what they became is another story)

Warhammer = WoW = star wars =

We have a pattern when it comes to EA and MMOs. That pattern is a neglect of the older MMOs. Go read the official Warhammer forums and the unofficial fansite forums for Camelot and UO. The fact that UO and Camelot don't have an official community should alert you to a problem. A friend of mine has mentioned to me several times that you would be hard pressed to find MMO publishers who don't try to provide an official community for their players, because that's the first place new players are going to turn to. Warhammer at least has Kai Schober talking to them on a regular basis but they are unhappy as hell and quite a few feel threatened by the arena game. I'm still amazed that EA hasn't ordered the deletion of the Warhammer forums. Read the official and unofficial forums for all three games and you see players convinced that EA wants their games to die because there is no true interaction and the leadership of all three games doesn't seem all that interested in actually getting out there and being public leaders of their games. Cal tried, but there was always a sense that he had his hands tied.

You would only realize the extent of the neglect of the player communities if you played other MMOs or looked at SWTOR.com or if you looked at the Japanese UO website for an example of UO. Other MMOs, UO Japan, and Star Wars cultivate their player communities.

That goes back to my view that EA has a hard time working with MMOs and are used to cranking out games and moving on. They improved a little bit with Warhammer, and they improved a lot with Star Wars, but then they aren't taking any of that knowledge and applying it to UO or Camelot.

I came across a post from earlier this year made made by a player who was leaving where they said that EA could probably keep some UO players IF they acted like they owned and cared about UO. They cited the lack of an official community, the neglect of the herald, and the distinct lack of interaction with the community. It applies to Camelot completely, and if you remove Kai Schober from the equation, it would apply to Warhammer as well. The front page of the official Warhammer website has the top stories all being from a year ago.

One good thing about the new leader - he played UO 10 years ago, he knows that UO used to have an official community and can remember what it was like.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

We are talking about a high class job here, once that needs settling in ; be patient he will talk.

 

[Kayne]

@Woodsman - I don't think we need an official community we already have that in stratics and its as close to official as it can be. What we do need is more communication and definitely need a feeling that EA own the game and care about it rather than us paying them to sit in their fancy offices and ignore us.

Certainly the Herald is a joke - maybe EA/Mythic/Bioware should speak to petra and the stratics team to see how communication and interaction and hell even how to post updates because they do it and they do it well. Half the pages on Herald are useless and lack any information relative to the game.

 

[Woodsman]

Certainly the Herald is a joke - maybe EA/Mythic/Bioware should speak to petra and the stratics team to see how communication and interaction and hell even how to post updates because they do it and they do it well. Half the pages on Herald are useless and lack any information relative to the game.

They don't need to speak to anybody at Stratics because BioWare has a lot of people they are currently paying to do everything you just said. Only they are doing it at SWTOR.com. And if they want to look closer to home with UO, they need only look at Ultima Online Japan for some tips - UO Japan highlights events and things that bring players together.

Stratics is run very well and has done an enormous amount for UO to help keep it going, but it's not the official website and BioWare does not need tips about interacting and communication with fans and players, because they have been doing so for 15 years and they are spending an enormous amount of effort on Star Wars. If you look at the official BioWare forums they still have forums for fans of their DOS games so age of a game is not an issue, and Warhammer even has official forums there as well, so it's not an issue of Mythic games being ignored. EA has forums for many of their games either at that link or at the official game websites. EA even has official support people posting and reading in the Origin forums for people having billing or account/order issues.

It's not that EA or BioWare doesn't know how to interact with game communities, it's that they choose not to as far as UO, and Camelot, is concerned.

@Woodsman - I don't think we need an official community we already have that in stratics and its as close to official as it can be.

We don't have an official community for UO, not since they deleted the UO.com forums. We have a Facebook page for UO which is very close to an official community. If you're a Facebook user. We have plenty of fansites for UO, but developers posting on a fansite does not make for an official community.

These are official communities for games:

SWTOR.com - Star Wars the Old Republic community
SWTOR Guild pages
Ultima Online Japan
RIFT
World of Warcraft
EverQuest 2

Keep in mind that it's not just about forums either, even though that's where communities coalesce at times, it's about highlighting things the players are doing or setting up events for players right there on the main website. There are over a dozen EM events happening every week in UO, but they aren't visible on the herald.

I had an incredibly long conversation with somebody on Sunday night about this - they mentioned some news about a former UO community person from the pre-AOS days, and so it's been on my mind. Last night I stumbled across an old post of, I think GalenKnighthawke's where he talked about, and I apologize in advance for getting the phrasing wrong because I can't find the post now and I was reading it on a phone, where you can have a poisonous atmosphere for new players when fansites take the place of official community, because you have people who aren't playing who are looking to knock the game or developers down, troll other players, push people to other games, and basically create a negative atmosphere.

What we do need is more communication and definitely need a feeling that EA own the game

EA owns the game, we know that, but where's the proof? Developers posting once in a great while on a fansite is not proof of ownership. There is no mention of UO on the official EA or BioWare forums. There is a mention of UO on page two of EA.com's RPG listing, but there is no mention of UO on the main BioWare website, unless you click on the menus, and even then the link on BioWare's website takes you to...the herald

EA can do this on the cheap, so it's not a matter of how much UO brings in.
Step #1 Set up some UO forums on the BioWare forums. The amount of posts would be a drop in the bucket post-wise compared to Dragon Age, Mass Effect, and the other big games that have their forums there, so moderation or infrastructure is not an issue, not even close. The amount of posts would probably be very low compared to Stratics, and I doubt Stratics posters would flock to it, but it would be a very visible sign that UO is a part of BioWare.

Step #2 Get whoever did the design for Ultima4Ever to do the same for the UO Herald and get somebody to help Kai Schober with working on the websites and upgrading the software. Upgrading from Drupal 6 to 7 apparently slowed down the work on Camelot, and has held up the Warhammer, so it's clear UO ain't going to get an upgraded site anytime soon. Kai said on the Camelot boards yesterday in the thread about why the Camelot stuff is broken (it's similar to MyUO, only deals with realms/housing and other stuff) that it's "quite complex" and so there is no ETA. BioWare has a team of web developers and community people for their other games, spare a few days out of the year for UO.

I know you all think I'm crazy, but look at the Ultima4Ever website and ask yourself why they didn't spend an hour taking those graphics and slapping them on the Herald, and just watch, now that there is officially another Ultima project, they will go and do a nice website and community for it while UO sticks with the herald and Facebook.

 

[Kayne]

I don't think you're crazy, you like a few others I've seen lately talk sense which makes a refreshing change (not sure its greater refresh though )

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

You put your finger right on the spot again woodsman !

Without a strong community there is no way to weed the people who are only here to break the community further (and we have plenty of examples) into zizany.

Without a community there is no way to trust, no way to the virtues.

Well spoken Avatar ! I applaud thee !