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Woodsman
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Usually it's anything that moves. Mobile.
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Ultima Franchise
- Thread starter GalenKnighthawke
- Start date
- Watchers 7
Those models, while fine for their time, are pretty close to quake level tech. For any 3D endeavor to be worthwhile, it would need to at least be able to hold up to tech of this decade.You could always recycle the third dawn client models... and that should be all the mobiles up to ML
-Grimm
IMHO some of them are better than the actual 2d ones. eg. the exodus minion and overseer were different and they were robots, not identical ghosts like they are now
And let's don't forget the animated paperdolls
Nevermind, just old memories, let's hope in some graphical improvements to get uo back to future
K
Kayne
Guest
Oh dear god no not the Third Dawn client models
...
No, not the models themselves, but the KR/Enhanced Client WOULD have been better served to use the same premise for character/mobile models (that being polygon-skin instead of pre-rendered stop-motion) as it would have reduced the size of the EC's footprint as well as the size of future patches.
But as Grimm says it'd be quite a task to convert over to that system from the already completed one in the EC... although I DO find it interesting that he's brought it up a few times.
No, not the models themselves, but the KR/Enhanced Client WOULD have been better served to use the same premise for character/mobile models (that being polygon-skin instead of pre-rendered stop-motion) as it would have reduced the size of the EC's footprint as well as the size of future patches.
But as Grimm says it'd be quite a task to convert over to that system from the already completed one in the EC... although I DO find it interesting that he's brought it up a few times.
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Woodsman
Guest
Since we're talking Third Dawn, was that actually it's own unique client, or was it built on the CC or on a third party client/engine like the KR and EC client is?
And I've got a question that goes back a few years before that, specifically in reference to UO in 1997 and I know some of you are old enough to remember. It's from the marketing materials and system requirements from the original UO from some stuff posted today:
UO’s 14th Anniversary: The Charter Edition | UOJournal.com
In the descriptions posted in that article, it says that in 1997 Origin was claiming that UO had:
Day and night effects
3-D terrain
dynamic lighting in 16-bit color SVGA graphics
Now the the requirements were:
Pentium 133, 166 recommended
16 MB RAM, 32 recommended
1 MB PCI Video Card (DirectX, 16-bit color), 2 MB recommended
261 MB Hard Drive Space
Slip/PPP or direct connect 28.8k bps or better with 32-bit TCP/IP Stack
After you clean your monitor/keyboard/desk from seeing the internet connection requirements and mention of SVGA, and I can remember confusion over SVGA/VGA, the 1MB PCI video card and the stuff about 3D terrain and dynamic lighting make me wonder. Was it really dynamic lighting and was it really considered 3D terrain?
I always thought the dynamic lighting just meant that we could have nightfall and that there weren't actual dynamic light sources in the game. The fact that different ads and boxes mention either day and night effects or dynamic lighting and not both led me to believe that it was just marketing.
I also thought it was 2D tiles mapped to everything, unless they were playing word games and the 3D refers to the terrain having height, not to the graphics method.
I think the 1MB PCI video card was a hard requirement too, because I remember somebody searching all over for some chips to bump their video card up from 512KB to 1MB to play UO, and it was pricey, but I'm having a hard time seeing such a video card adequately handle actual dynamic lighting and 3D graphics. It was pretty bad on my system at times and I had 2MB. I'd have to go look at some screenshots, but I don't really remember shadows.
And I've got a question that goes back a few years before that, specifically in reference to UO in 1997 and I know some of you are old enough to remember. It's from the marketing materials and system requirements from the original UO from some stuff posted today:
UO’s 14th Anniversary: The Charter Edition | UOJournal.com
In the descriptions posted in that article, it says that in 1997 Origin was claiming that UO had:
Day and night effects
3-D terrain
dynamic lighting in 16-bit color SVGA graphics
Now the the requirements were:
Pentium 133, 166 recommended
16 MB RAM, 32 recommended
1 MB PCI Video Card (DirectX, 16-bit color), 2 MB recommended
261 MB Hard Drive Space
Slip/PPP or direct connect 28.8k bps or better with 32-bit TCP/IP Stack
After you clean your monitor/keyboard/desk from seeing the internet connection requirements and mention of SVGA, and I can remember confusion over SVGA/VGA, the 1MB PCI video card and the stuff about 3D terrain and dynamic lighting make me wonder. Was it really dynamic lighting and was it really considered 3D terrain?
I always thought the dynamic lighting just meant that we could have nightfall and that there weren't actual dynamic light sources in the game. The fact that different ads and boxes mention either day and night effects or dynamic lighting and not both led me to believe that it was just marketing.
I also thought it was 2D tiles mapped to everything, unless they were playing word games and the 3D refers to the terrain having height, not to the graphics method.
I think the 1MB PCI video card was a hard requirement too, because I remember somebody searching all over for some chips to bump their video card up from 512KB to 1MB to play UO, and it was pricey, but I'm having a hard time seeing such a video card adequately handle actual dynamic lighting and 3D graphics. It was pretty bad on my system at times and I had 2MB. I'd have to go look at some screenshots, but I don't really remember shadows.
...
Let's see...
The Third Dawn client was CLOSE to the Legacy 2d client (to the point that they were able to merge them and you selected which one you ran in near the end), but there were some behind the scenes differences beyond the 3d modelling and particle effects as well. I remember being rather annoyed that the 3d client didn't get the snow covered lands during winter when 2d did (by that time both were using the same landscape tiles), however SOMETHING was definitely different behind the scenes because the art dev at the time (I believe CatHat) came on and posted that an attempt was made to give the 3d client snow but that it ended up looking like a nuclear apocalypse (or something similar), so there were differences involved. However you COULD swap the MUL files between clients and I have a few OLD screenshots of using the early 3d landscape artwork in the 2d client (as well as the (somewhat) improved tree and building artwork that was later added to the 2d client).
VGA vs SVGA
VGA is max 640x480 resolution running either 256 or 16bit color modes
S(uper)VGA is 800x600 resolution running in either 16 or 32 bit color modes
(Note that these are the very basic differences, Wiki has all of the technical info which would be a bother to try and post here, basically UO was originally written for 640x480/16bit VGA and was later broadened in scope by Pandemonium (an OLD dev during T2A days) with the "big window" client that raise the size of the game window).
UO's terrain/world IS 3d, but "fixed" top down at a 45degree angle with objects "breaking" that perspective to give the isometric view we see in the game. (As a side note, many of the KR artwork items were redone to bring them more inline with the "correct" perspective). That makes it difficult to notice the 3d effects of the terrain, but it is most noticeable in Ilshenar which was made originally for the 3d client. So yes, it refers to the fact that UO has an X, Y, and Z axis (although there is due to the perspective used some overlap between the Y and Z axes).
Dynamic lighting... not so sure on this one, it's definitely more dynamic in Third Dawn (though VERY broken in that client), KR, and EC than it is in 2d mostly due to the nature of those clients making use of particle effects and hardware acceleration as opposed to the 2d client.
Ultima USED to always need a top of the line system when a new version came out from the single players all the way through the KR client. The Enhanced Client is likely the first Ultima title that went backwards in that regard.
And ya know, I always joke about how my video card is well beyond the entire system needed to run UO when it first came out, but seeing the numbers is just a little crazy. And Slip/PointToPoint protocols... wow those were the days, getting kicked off every 4 hours and having to redial back in, etc. for speeds now that even my phone connects faster... what strides we have made in that regard.
Let's see...
The Third Dawn client was CLOSE to the Legacy 2d client (to the point that they were able to merge them and you selected which one you ran in near the end), but there were some behind the scenes differences beyond the 3d modelling and particle effects as well. I remember being rather annoyed that the 3d client didn't get the snow covered lands during winter when 2d did (by that time both were using the same landscape tiles), however SOMETHING was definitely different behind the scenes because the art dev at the time (I believe CatHat) came on and posted that an attempt was made to give the 3d client snow but that it ended up looking like a nuclear apocalypse (or something similar), so there were differences involved. However you COULD swap the MUL files between clients and I have a few OLD screenshots of using the early 3d landscape artwork in the 2d client (as well as the (somewhat) improved tree and building artwork that was later added to the 2d client).
VGA vs SVGA
VGA is max 640x480 resolution running either 256 or 16bit color modes
S(uper)VGA is 800x600 resolution running in either 16 or 32 bit color modes
(Note that these are the very basic differences, Wiki has all of the technical info which would be a bother to try and post here, basically UO was originally written for 640x480/16bit VGA and was later broadened in scope by Pandemonium (an OLD dev during T2A days) with the "big window" client that raise the size of the game window).
UO's terrain/world IS 3d, but "fixed" top down at a 45degree angle with objects "breaking" that perspective to give the isometric view we see in the game. (As a side note, many of the KR artwork items were redone to bring them more inline with the "correct" perspective). That makes it difficult to notice the 3d effects of the terrain, but it is most noticeable in Ilshenar which was made originally for the 3d client. So yes, it refers to the fact that UO has an X, Y, and Z axis (although there is due to the perspective used some overlap between the Y and Z axes).
Dynamic lighting... not so sure on this one, it's definitely more dynamic in Third Dawn (though VERY broken in that client), KR, and EC than it is in 2d mostly due to the nature of those clients making use of particle effects and hardware acceleration as opposed to the 2d client.
Ultima USED to always need a top of the line system when a new version came out from the single players all the way through the KR client. The Enhanced Client is likely the first Ultima title that went backwards in that regard.
And ya know, I always joke about how my video card is well beyond the entire system needed to run UO when it first came out, but seeing the numbers is just a little crazy. And Slip/PointToPoint protocols... wow those were the days, getting kicked off every 4 hours and having to redial back in, etc. for speeds now that even my phone connects faster... what strides we have made in that regard.
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Woodsman
Guest
Makes sense about the Third Dawn client and I remember people swapping the files around. It seemed like that client was developed awfully fast as well, which also supports building up on the 2D client.
If UO had entered development just 6 months later, they probably would have had 1024x768 supported natively instead of just the 800x600 and 640x480. Then again, they might have been wrapped up in the 3D drama that surrounded Ultima 9 and UO might have been beaten by Asheron's Call and Everquest. When you look at that time period, things that we question the wisdom of nowadays were the exact reasons they were able to beat everybody else out first.
Very clever marketing then, because it was both truthful and also playing upon people hearing 3D in relation to Quake and even Ultima 9. As for the dynamic lighting in 1997, I really think that was also clever marketing and just referred to day and night cycles.
It was an incredibly brutal upgrade cycle in 1997-1999 because a lot of people had to upgrade for UO and then turn around less than two years later and upgrade for Ultima 9. Those that upgraded for Ultima 9 weren't in a bad position for Third Dawn though. OSI was a harsh mistress.
If UO from 1997 could have been ported to my current phone, I'm sure I could run two instances, maybe three, side-by-side just fine.
...
During the time that UO was first released, the transition from pixel/2d to polygonal 3d was just starting, and to be honest, 3d graphics were ATROCIOUS at the time in comparison (at least when you consider details). The choice of how they did the 2d client was the right choice at the time. All previous Ultimas were top-down view with Ultima 8 being the first isometric one of the bunch (and you can see where UO "borrowed" item graphics from U8 (and by the same token, there was a good bit of give and take of graphic models from U9 and UO).
The Third Dawn client was too far ahead of its time when it was released to really work well... especially in high traffic areas which would SERIOUSLY stress the Voodoo and early GeForce cards. Near the end of its run (after Civ 4 had released anyway), the 3d hardware had done quite a bit of catching up with what UO using polygonal graphics demanded and the 3d client was very smooth by then. Now they could do the same technological choices of the 3d client (mainly 3d modelling) and it would not only be smoother in terms of animation, but every bit as detailed and more than the 2d renders in real time AND be a much smaller footprint on the client. Unfortunately it would be quite a project to convert everything again.
During the time that UO was first released, the transition from pixel/2d to polygonal 3d was just starting, and to be honest, 3d graphics were ATROCIOUS at the time in comparison (at least when you consider details). The choice of how they did the 2d client was the right choice at the time. All previous Ultimas were top-down view with Ultima 8 being the first isometric one of the bunch (and you can see where UO "borrowed" item graphics from U8 (and by the same token, there was a good bit of give and take of graphic models from U9 and UO).
The Third Dawn client was too far ahead of its time when it was released to really work well... especially in high traffic areas which would SERIOUSLY stress the Voodoo and early GeForce cards. Near the end of its run (after Civ 4 had released anyway), the 3d hardware had done quite a bit of catching up with what UO using polygonal graphics demanded and the 3d client was very smooth by then. Now they could do the same technological choices of the 3d client (mainly 3d modelling) and it would not only be smoother in terms of animation, but every bit as detailed and more than the 2d renders in real time AND be a much smaller footprint on the client. Unfortunately it would be quite a project to convert everything again.
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Woodsman
Guest
Which is why I'm looking forward to messing with Beautiful Britannia at some point.
I swear I remember somebody posting on Stratics or maybe it was UO.com about Third Dawn literally setting their Voodoo on fire. I doubted it, but I took a look at a computer case from around that time, and they were really bad about cooling back then.
...
I remember my old Voodoo 3 card just had a small aluminum heatsink and NO fan. After a few minutes of playing something like U9, that sucker was too hot to touch, so it wouldn't surprise me. If you also remember, the wiring during that time was a rat's nest compared to the way it is now... flat IDE cables, the cables from the power supply were all over the place, it was amazing that ANY air got through the case compared to the one I have now that runs all of the cables behind the motherboard, modular power supply with banded cables and of course SATA cables being very thin by comparison and HUGE fans on the thing.
I remember my old Voodoo 3 card just had a small aluminum heatsink and NO fan. After a few minutes of playing something like U9, that sucker was too hot to touch, so it wouldn't surprise me. If you also remember, the wiring during that time was a rat's nest compared to the way it is now... flat IDE cables, the cables from the power supply were all over the place, it was amazing that ANY air got through the case compared to the one I have now that runs all of the cables behind the motherboard, modular power supply with banded cables and of course SATA cables being very thin by comparison and HUGE fans on the thing.
Actually, there are TONS of benefits to 3D assets, and not just the ones mentioned by Woodsman and others. And I loved the animated paperdolls as well!IMHO some of them are better than the actual 2d ones. eg. the exodus minion and overseer were different and they were robots, not identical ghosts like they are now
And let's don't forget the animated paperdolls
Nevermind, just old memories, let's hope in some graphical improvements to get uo back to future
-Grimm
...
Grimm, I'm pulling most of what I'm saying from memory, so I hope I'm at least still in the ballpark with it and that my ever so slightly dysfunctional brain isn't getting everything all screwed up.
But let's see... some of the advantages to 3d assets:
- Easier to add in new item artwork (i.e. new weapons, armor and clothes. Artifacts could have been made to look unique within themselves instead of rehued existing items)
- Easier to add in new animations: The 3d client models had a BUNCH of emotes available that 2d and KR/EC simply don't.
- More interactive paperdolls: not only animated, but you could rotate the image as well
- Smoother animation (since it is movement in realtime, not stop-motion pre-rendered)
- Smaller downloads
Grimm I never really understood why the decision to go back to the 2d pre-renders for KR/EC when KR was first announced/developed... seems like it had to have made development of the client harder than 3d modelling would have from the beginning, or am I wrong in that somehow?
Grimm, I'm pulling most of what I'm saying from memory, so I hope I'm at least still in the ballpark with it and that my ever so slightly dysfunctional brain isn't getting everything all screwed up.
But let's see... some of the advantages to 3d assets:
- Easier to add in new item artwork (i.e. new weapons, armor and clothes. Artifacts could have been made to look unique within themselves instead of rehued existing items)
- Easier to add in new animations: The 3d client models had a BUNCH of emotes available that 2d and KR/EC simply don't.
- More interactive paperdolls: not only animated, but you could rotate the image as well
- Smoother animation (since it is movement in realtime, not stop-motion pre-rendered)
- Smaller downloads
Grimm I never really understood why the decision to go back to the 2d pre-renders for KR/EC when KR was first announced/developed... seems like it had to have made development of the client harder than 3d modelling would have from the beginning, or am I wrong in that somehow?
Oh yea, sometimes I just bring it up to put other ideas I have in perspective. But yea, it comes up.
-Grimm
It might have dynamic lighting from a technical point of view, but as far as I know, it doesn't have dynamic lighting as I think of the term. As for 3D terrain, yes it does have 3D terrain as in polys that have textures mapped to them. The classic client terrain is a combination of the two.
Second! The whole thread was a really good read. Though I was a teensy bit disappointed no hints were let slip.
This is great...
I was thinking earlier how people mature and learn to endure times of sadness because it is how the body balances its hormones internally... one night you sleep with joy, one night with sadness !
I'd say we're due for a great period of joy !
See you in there Avatar !
I was thinking earlier how people mature and learn to endure times of sadness because it is how the body balances its hormones internally... one night you sleep with joy, one night with sadness !
I'd say we're due for a great period of joy !
See you in there Avatar !
Harder in some ways, easier in others. 2D for UO we knew and knew well. A 3D client would have required a lot more engineers than we had at the time (and we had quite a few). And we had a lot more hurdles to clear in the same amount of time if we went 3D. Not the least of which was figuring out a way to support the Legacy and a brand new 3D client that would have to use the exact same server hardware for both clients so that 2 players using 2 different clients from 2 different eras could play together, and we would need to figure out how we were going be able to produce artwork for what might as well be 2 completely different games without having to make each asset twice. At that time I was still having nightmares about supporting 2D and Third Dawn clients, and I was determined that we were NEVER going to create assets for the 3D client and use them in the 2D because I had seen the results of this in publishes prior to my arrival, and actually MADE them in Samurai and Mondains. They looked awful- truly awful and completely out of place in the Legacy client.
There were tons of other things and given all the resources we had to work with, the decision was made to go 2D. It was a hard made decision and there were many, many meetings about this. Oddly enough I found a document I wrote up with all the pros of going 3D. It's a hard fact of game development that sometimes you have to choose plan B because you simply don't have the time and/or resources to do what you want and or love to do.
Best,
Grimm
My pleasure, actually I've enjoyed this thread a great deal! Thanks to everyone who's contributed! Although it's late now and I got one more post in menbefore bedtime (besides, I'm typing on my iPod which ain't easy)
- Grimm
Haha! Sorry to disappoint! Generally I don't slip. But who knows, maybe one day I might slip and tell you guys that we're < message redacted > !Second! The whole thread was a really good read. Though I was a teensy bit disappointed no hints were let slip.
Who knows!?
-Grimm
Hugs Grim long time no see you.
You made some hard choices in the past to keep the game playable, 3d back then was nothing like todays evolution of it vast possibilitys. Keep up the good work, you make the masses happy.
You made some hard choices in the past to keep the game playable, 3d back then was nothing like todays evolution of it vast possibilitys. Keep up the good work, you make the masses happy.
O
olduofan
Guest
very enjoyable thread thanx for sharing Grimm Always Nice To Seee YA
after the grimm posts we can say: fake
K
Kayne
Guest
This has been an interesting read.
In the main I am glad that UO didn't go 3D and lose the 2D client, I found the old third dawn client awful to use, KR was just horrific in terms of performance and some of the artwork was dreadful. EC has improved hugely in terms of its performance however I still hate playing in it.
Wonder if Grimm or someone else can answer why in Third Dawn, KR and now EC when running on mounts it always appears as if you float over the ground, and maybe if this will ever be fixed?
Also thanks Grimm for the input from a Dev perspective it gives us players a better understanding of why you(or previous devs) made the choices they did
In the main I am glad that UO didn't go 3D and lose the 2D client, I found the old third dawn client awful to use, KR was just horrific in terms of performance and some of the artwork was dreadful. EC has improved hugely in terms of its performance however I still hate playing in it.
Wonder if Grimm or someone else can answer why in Third Dawn, KR and now EC when running on mounts it always appears as if you float over the ground, and maybe if this will ever be fixed?
Also thanks Grimm for the input from a Dev perspective it gives us players a better understanding of why you(or previous devs) made the choices they did
There is a lot of confusion in your knowledge...
Third Dawn uses 3D models, but KR and EC uses 2d models and that's why they run bad. The engine of KR is made to be 3d, using it as 2d is just cutting its legs like having a ferrari and never take it over the 20mph...
The "floating over the ground" is just a bad sync of the animations, and there are many others, for example just look at a character riding with tigh boots on, you'll see the feet and the boots separated sometimes
K
Kayne
Guest
Pinco even with the original KR with the KR graphics the same thing happened that still happens now in EC and did in Third Dawn. Whichever models they used in the three clients the same problem occurs. Surely they could get the sync of animation right in one of the three clients
C
canary
Guest
For literal years UO has been having the 'why can't the graphics be better?' discussion. For years there has been no improvement.
They have been exceptionally hushed regarding the graphical upgrades we were supposed to be getting this year, which leads me to thinking they are not going to do them.
Art has always been a sore point for UO; its a shame we do not have a dedicated art team to presenting new things and overhauls with the game that are needed.
They have been exceptionally hushed regarding the graphical upgrades we were supposed to be getting this year, which leads me to thinking they are not going to do them.
Art has always been a sore point for UO; its a shame we do not have a dedicated art team to presenting new things and overhauls with the game that are needed.
...
its a shame we do not have a dedicated art team to presenting new things and overhauls with the game that are needed.
It is, but it's even more of a shame that any such overhaul seems to ALWAYS be met with the same "You changed it, now it sucks" attitude. I mean we've had multi-page threads with people threatening to quit over a mistaken inclusion of a redesign of a SHEEP.
At some point, I wonder if the mindset of the art team becomes "they don't deserve an artwork overhaul". One of the reasons why I'm glad I'm NOT a dev is that I would have just that reaction which probably would NOT be a good attitude to bring to the table.
its a shame we do not have a dedicated art team to presenting new things and overhauls with the game that are needed.
It is, but it's even more of a shame that any such overhaul seems to ALWAYS be met with the same "You changed it, now it sucks" attitude. I mean we've had multi-page threads with people threatening to quit over a mistaken inclusion of a redesign of a SHEEP.
At some point, I wonder if the mindset of the art team becomes "they don't deserve an artwork overhaul". One of the reasons why I'm glad I'm NOT a dev is that I would have just that reaction which probably would NOT be a good attitude to bring to the table.
C
canary
Guest
The thing is, though, they are paid to do art.
This isn't some passing fancy to occupy their free time. If we have an art team, we should be getting art on a consistent basis. And for years we have not.
I do social work for a living; I have a lot of clients who are extremely nasty, fussy and outright mean. Now, as a paid employee, I do not have the luxury of saying 'They aren't worth it, I'm not going to do my job.'
It IS a job. As such, you should be expected to do the best work you can that will make the largest amount of people happy.
K
Kayne
Guest
Dermott I agree with you that the dev team probably do get a little disheartened by the reactions some times.
However in the case of the 2D sheep change it was a mistake (that hasnt yet been corrected afaik) however I have no problem with the EC graphics getting better but I don't want the same graphics looking out of place in the 2D client.
I do like some of the enhancements that KR/EC client had but in the main I don't like it.
However in the case of the 2D sheep change it was a mistake (that hasnt yet been corrected afaik) however I have no problem with the EC graphics getting better but I don't want the same graphics looking out of place in the 2D client.
I do like some of the enhancements that KR/EC client had but in the main I don't like it.
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Woodsman
Guest
Thank you very much, it was interesting reading about all of that and I've got a better understanding of the early days.
I don't know about TD, but KR and EC are built on the same engine/client, so that's not surprising that a problem with KR would still be around in the EC.
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Woodsman
Guest
They are paid to do what they are told, otherwise EA would have no problem laying them off. That means they have been adding art, which you could see if you log in the game. Hell, EA has laid off people on the UO team just for the fact that another game crashed and burned and they lost money.
They've been exceptionally hushed about a lot of things, whether it's account migration, cleanup, or the graphics. They've opened up about cleanup just in the past few weeks, but there are two things they've been ultra exceptionally hushed about - the new player experience and the new quest system. I dare you to find something solid said about either of those two in recent months.
This was said by Cal around July 4:
Of course the account migration happened in August, and while not many members of the dev team would have been involved (especially the art people), some of the engineers had to have been working with the Origin.com team to fix the problems and that slowed everything down because the dev team is so small.
We are seeing the first two items - cleanup and anniversary, and the vet rewards appear to be in the cliloc files, so the only thing on that list that we've not seen definitively is the graphics stuff. If we don't see anything graphics wise within the following publish or two, I'd be really worried. The graphics issue scares the crap out of me, because UO will definitely not survive to see its 20th anniversary without a graphics update. It could limp through to the 15th just on how many are still playing and people returning for nostalgia, but nostalgia will only get you so far. New blood is needed, and new blood isn't coming into the game in significant quantities without graphics that take advantage of computers made in the last 5-7 years.
We do have an art team, one of them posted a lot in this thread, and we get new things with the publishes, the problem is that our best chance at having what you want went out the door with the layoffs after Stygian Abyss. As JC the Builder roughly put it, UO needs a Live Team to work on the game in its current state, and a team dedicated to the future, and we don't have that anymore, and we haven't for years. If the Stygian Abyss team could have been kept intact, well it's actually depressing to think how far along things would be overall.
I'm not meaning to imply that they can't do that - overhaul the game or anything, but I know it's got to be tough. As anxious as I am about the graphics, I'm willing to sit tight for a few more publishes before deciding. If Cal hadn't said anything in July about it, I would not be that optimistic.
And I would like to take a second to let everyone know that art never takes that opinion. As Canary says, art is our job, and doing your job despite whatever emotional stuff come up is a mark of professionalism. Although Canarys comment about not getting artwork for years is a mistype I believe, because nothing could be further from the truth.
-Grimm
...
Then you guys are in a better mindset than I am when it comes to UO, the clients, etc. and hats off for that. That's why I mod the EC (generally the textures and XML, LUA confuses the hell out of me) as a spare-time endeavor and work in collectibles for my real profession. Even in the collectibles industry in which I work, dealing with some of the public can be... special. But you just set your own feelings aside and roll with all of it, I guess.
Seems odd that I was manning the tables on the floor at the shows dealing with the public when really, I'm not a big fan of the public in the first place, but it taught me to basically overcompensate that dislike to make it all work out well.
Given the nature of some of the rather abusive posts here about any artwork changes, I have to hand it to Grimm and company for keeping such an attitude, it would be tough for me to do so.
And yes, the not getting artwork for years is EASILY debunked considering we've gotten an entire client of updated art (even if it did get reverted mostly), a large expansion, a "booster" all with new art, and of course new art for ingame events. storylines, and holidays.
I look forward to the art updates for the EC, and hope that we can again see some of the images that Woodsman posted earlier in the thread as part of the game again... the Serpent Pillar, Telescope, and Banana Trees especially.
Then you guys are in a better mindset than I am when it comes to UO, the clients, etc. and hats off for that. That's why I mod the EC (generally the textures and XML, LUA confuses the hell out of me) as a spare-time endeavor and work in collectibles for my real profession. Even in the collectibles industry in which I work, dealing with some of the public can be... special. But you just set your own feelings aside and roll with all of it, I guess.
Seems odd that I was manning the tables on the floor at the shows dealing with the public when really, I'm not a big fan of the public in the first place, but it taught me to basically overcompensate that dislike to make it all work out well.
Given the nature of some of the rather abusive posts here about any artwork changes, I have to hand it to Grimm and company for keeping such an attitude, it would be tough for me to do so.
And yes, the not getting artwork for years is EASILY debunked considering we've gotten an entire client of updated art (even if it did get reverted mostly), a large expansion, a "booster" all with new art, and of course new art for ingame events. storylines, and holidays.
I look forward to the art updates for the EC, and hope that we can again see some of the images that Woodsman posted earlier in the thread as part of the game again... the Serpent Pillar, Telescope, and Banana Trees especially.
O
olduofan
Guest
You are a far better person than I would just use the IGNORE option
You have always been calm, cool and collected despite the very harsh attacks from a few very few mostly 1 or 2 individuals around here and still are very professional, accommodating and go out of your way to explain even when (knowing they have an axe to grid) you do they will try to twist and use that against in the future....
Thanks for being a true UO leader and setting an example of how to deal with us me included flame-throwers
Grimm's a class act, even though...or maybe because *puzzles* I still don't have my crimson dyes (the new compassion dye is neat but not the same) or thongs, or figureheads, or bannermen, or emblazoned surcoats of knee length.
Bane, The Crimson and Platinum Dragons, Giant Turkeys, and AHH stand as amazing examples of what can be.
As for the future, man that whole redacted massage thing has me all worked up. I hope they are given by Dingo and her naughty naughty evil wicked twin. I might have to start a new acct if it is accompanied by a new skill set.
Bane, The Crimson and Platinum Dragons, Giant Turkeys, and AHH stand as amazing examples of what can be.
As for the future, man that whole redacted massage thing has me all worked up. I hope they are given by Dingo and her naughty naughty evil wicked twin. I might have to start a new acct if it is accompanied by a new skill set.
Since nobody asked my opinion I'll write it down just incase someone changes their mind.
I think the art team did a great job, I marvelled at SA (even if I am still unable to upgrade, my CC is ready for you guys) and many critics in here seem to forget the time it takes to create those animations.
I did amazing art back then for UO, right before I got fired... its a shame it wasn't included, it took alot of time to create these pixel by pixel, then making every frame, readjusting (and it never works the way you want it)...
I think right now for the first time I am happy about the money I invested in this game... this sounds strange dosen't it ? I have as many reasons as anyone to be unhappy... but I saw people trying (first Draconi ; then Cal and Messana)...
I did warn them it wouldn't "work", its not that simple... you can have all the good intentions in the world... ah I feel old, gah. To me they did deliver, theres no question about it.
And I mean it, take a fully objective view and leave those prejudice aside and you'll see normal people doing an extreemly hard job, and the created the abyss cause they want the game to be dark and immersive and interesting.
But thing is, it is no ordinary game, its more than immersive, it seems to create its own "magical moments" like a living being would. It also relates to the world as it is abused (by corporate mercantilism) in the same manner...
In the same bracket ; it is also unique in that sense because it could only happen once ! Hasn't that been such a lively argument in the derision of the classic shard idea... you can't have back the good old time !
BOLLOCKS ! hehe ; its never left its just shattered into pieces and many avatar hold a piece that they guard jealously in their subconscious. If they do not come together again it will be lost...
I know how to find out.
I think the art team did a great job, I marvelled at SA (even if I am still unable to upgrade, my CC is ready for you guys) and many critics in here seem to forget the time it takes to create those animations.
I did amazing art back then for UO, right before I got fired... its a shame it wasn't included, it took alot of time to create these pixel by pixel, then making every frame, readjusting (and it never works the way you want it)...
I think right now for the first time I am happy about the money I invested in this game... this sounds strange dosen't it ? I have as many reasons as anyone to be unhappy... but I saw people trying (first Draconi ; then Cal and Messana)...
I did warn them it wouldn't "work", its not that simple... you can have all the good intentions in the world... ah I feel old, gah. To me they did deliver, theres no question about it.
And I mean it, take a fully objective view and leave those prejudice aside and you'll see normal people doing an extreemly hard job, and the created the abyss cause they want the game to be dark and immersive and interesting.
But thing is, it is no ordinary game, its more than immersive, it seems to create its own "magical moments" like a living being would. It also relates to the world as it is abused (by corporate mercantilism) in the same manner...
In the same bracket ; it is also unique in that sense because it could only happen once ! Hasn't that been such a lively argument in the derision of the classic shard idea... you can't have back the good old time !
BOLLOCKS ! hehe ; its never left its just shattered into pieces and many avatar hold a piece that they guard jealously in their subconscious. If they do not come together again it will be lost...
I know how to find out.
K
Kayne
Guest
THIS x a million
this is exactly why UO beats all other MMO's the game isn't what makes moments its what happens and the community. I'll never forget the party in Haven the night they blew it up. The community that night was awesome
O
olduofan
Guest
we all have those individual and u-neek memory's/moments that makes uo stand out it seems.
T
Trebr Drab
Guest
I gotta agree. UO is the most "worldly" game there is. By far. That brings both the good and the bad, but it makes it 1000x more interesting than other games. Eve excluded, but it's a space sim so lacks the greater depth.
What's a shame is that UO could be more so. But everyone's afraid of that.
K
Kayne
Guest
I'd love to see a big community moment like the end of Haven again, not so much watching a town get blown up but something to make a community come together. We dont always need to hunt monsters for shineys sometimes we can make a great moment with just some people.
C
canary
Guest
Actually, I said for years we have not received artwork on a consistent basis.
With no slight, if UO has a dedicated art team (and most of us are well aware that a large amount of the art we have received over the years is contracted outside the UO offices) there should be a larger output of work in regards to art than what we have, imo.
Problem is there is a gap between the original story (which any true Ultima fan will recognize is genuine and community oriented) that stopped with the laying off of the whole seer team on all servers, because of what ?¿
And the current story which is akin to a "filler" ... its nice and reads like a book, but hardly a substitute... but I don't mean to be so negative, SA and high seas is well in line with the true story of UO, it's just that :
Who are the only people to profit from this ? Certainly not EA, the bled subscriptions to free servers, to wow... how boring has your Ultima gotten for people to consider WoW ?
I'm not the one to brings those answers, I'll just raise the questions.
And the current story which is akin to a "filler" ... its nice and reads like a book, but hardly a substitute... but I don't mean to be so negative, SA and high seas is well in line with the true story of UO, it's just that :
The original story was connected with the earth realm ; just like the avatar comes from the earth realm and crosses to britannia. That link has been severed, under the guise of the game being made PG-13... but the reality of the situation is that surrounded with that mad buggers wall UO was completely strangled, asphyxiated... trammel made it even worse (no I'm not starting a debate)
Who are the only people to profit from this ? Certainly not EA, the bled subscriptions to free servers, to wow... how boring has your Ultima gotten for people to consider WoW ?
I'm not the one to brings those answers, I'll just raise the questions.
I think at the heart of it, this statement sums up my disappointment with the recreation of Magincia as it happened. I was really really looking forward to something worth doing together, and had been for a long time.
C
canary
Guest
The way it went down was not the original plan. It's a shame that we didn't get a chance to actually rebuild Magincia as was intended.
I suppose that is all I can say on that.
mhm... they said *we* will rebuild magincia !
But theres no way for masons to make walls, theres no way for me to even make a garden in front of my guildhouse, I have to water them everyday as it never rains in magincia and theres full of pests and fungi everywhere !
I say spray insecticide chem trails all over magincia !!! and let the rainmakers come in !
Or let me hire a gardener...
it more went down as... well rebuild it yourself, pay for it.
ahha, rabbit out of the hat !
But theres no way for masons to make walls, theres no way for me to even make a garden in front of my guildhouse, I have to water them everyday as it never rains in magincia and theres full of pests and fungi everywhere !
I say spray insecticide chem trails all over magincia !!! and let the rainmakers come in !
Or let me hire a gardener...
it more went down as... well rebuild it yourself, pay for it.
ahha, rabbit out of the hat !