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You realize thats the exact opposite of real-world economics, right?
Price of goods is generally based on availability. If there is a glut of an item (low demand), price goes down in the hopes they sell. If there is a shortage (high demand), the price goes up.
Price of goods is generally based on availability. If there is a glut of an item (low demand), price goes down in the hopes they sell. If there is a shortage (high demand), the price goes up.
On Sonoma there seems to be a lack of customers. High Priced Items stay on the vendors. Prices don't go down. How does that work?
I can't afford the LUNA PRICES and won't support outside web sites selling UO Gold for real world Dollars. UO is such a commercial item now, the uniqueness it once had no longer exists. No wonder so many players quit UO.
I can't afford the LUNA PRICES and won't support outside web sites selling UO Gold for real world Dollars. UO is such a commercial item now, the uniqueness it once had no longer exists. No wonder so many players quit UO.
Simple answer? Greed.
Long answer? UO's economy is hopelessly flawed since it is an open faucet system with almost no real gold sinks, save community collections.
...ingsmsico said:
Um... what? You got that ass-backwards in ANY functional economic model.
This has to be a troll. I doubt someone is this big of an idiot.
F
Fayled Dhreams
Guest
not so much ...
If it was a greed thing ... wouldn't the "seller" adjust its price UP to cover the non-buying maintenance costs to present it for sale?
vendors do charge a time based percentage, yes?
*shrugs*
while >correct< as far as a flawed economy ...
it would be interesting to see the metric of:
Vendor %s charged total
vs
Community collection gold removed total ...
shard by shard and UO overall.
[/Thread]
E
ernest79
Guest
I must say I have to disagree with your reasoning. Here's my opinion, let the flames begin!!
As quantity demanded goes down, all other things being equal, prices would go down also. However, all other things are not equal. The main reason that prices have gone up is due to hyperinflation, which is spurned by the excess of gold entering the game but not coming out. Money of any sort, in this case gold, is just a substitute for bartering. Like anything else it is subject to supply and demand. If the supply of gold is too high (relative to everything else), then the demand for it is too low, the value of the gold itself (relative to everything else) goes down and sellers need more of it to be willing to part with whatever item they have, and a buyer wants. A perfect example (but terrible idea overall) is the price of gold in exchange for real money. Years ago, $10 per mil advertised was normal, now it's not uncommon to see it advertised for less than 50 cents. Gold is worth less now than it used to be in game and in RL so it takes more of it to buy the same stuff. NPC vendors are an anomoly, similar to government price controls, and all of this excludes them since they cannot vary their price to keep up with hyperinflation.
The real question is...why is the gold worth less? Answer to that is that for many years more gold has entered the system than left. (Does this sound vaguely like US monetary policy anyone?)
Once again, just my opinion!
Uhm, yes, hence the overpriced nature of most things sold in Luna. Thats all inclusive in the greed reason. (Which I did indicate was the simple reason)
Sell low and have a mass amount of that hot item you make a ton of gold. Sell high you may sell some here and there but the low ball seller will sell first. Who cares if its the high end seller buying your wares to resell. I made a 180 mil in a week and half off of SA ingredients when SA came out. Sold low and had farmed the SA ingredeints on my necro.
Well I'm always shocked by people who keep telling me "Well they sell for X amount!" It's like NO they DON'T Sell for X amount... X amount is the horribly over inflated price some genius placed the item for on his Luna Vendor.....
Considering the item is still there 8 weeks later that says to me that it's the price it WILL NOT sell for...
So don't tell me what it sells for just because that's the price some moron in Luna thinks I'll pay for it. Because obviously if I wanted to pay that much for it the thing wouldn't still be for sale in Luna.
And as far as I'm concerned the over inflated crap can stay on the vendors in Luna until the vendor fee's cost the idiot more than he could have gotten if he had just priced it reasonably...
I understand plenty about economics... enough to know that if the price is fair it will sell and if it's stupid no one will buy it... except the equally dimwitted fools who are quickly and easily parted from their gold.
As for me I try my hardest to get the items for myself.... rather than pay some other fool to get them for me.
Considering the item is still there 8 weeks later that says to me that it's the price it WILL NOT sell for...
So don't tell me what it sells for just because that's the price some moron in Luna thinks I'll pay for it. Because obviously if I wanted to pay that much for it the thing wouldn't still be for sale in Luna.
And as far as I'm concerned the over inflated crap can stay on the vendors in Luna until the vendor fee's cost the idiot more than he could have gotten if he had just priced it reasonably...
I understand plenty about economics... enough to know that if the price is fair it will sell and if it's stupid no one will buy it... except the equally dimwitted fools who are quickly and easily parted from their gold.
As for me I try my hardest to get the items for myself.... rather than pay some other fool to get them for me.
F
Fayled Dhreams
Guest
ah! I see what you are saying.
still in minor disagreement with the /simple greed tag ...
/simple ignorance ... applies equally well.
Especially in a TOTALLY borked economy model under discussion.
all in all ... it really should have a name OTHER than "economy" ...
nes pas?
*Puts down copy of the Financial Times, gazing off into the distance woefully*
All this time...
Well it wont be long till were all playing on the new 'classic shard' ...all starting again form scratch with 1000 gold pieces.....lets see how long it takes for you guys and gals to screw up the economy on there too!! wont be long i guess...i.e selling xxx for $$$ on the classic shard etc etc
The game didnt do it!! you lot bloody did.....[end]
The game didnt do it!! you lot bloody did.....[end]
F
Fayled Dhreams
Guest
Actually, this is 'travel company' economics. When passenger numbers go down on the trains, they put the fares up to screw the same total amount of money out of the ones who are left.
Having said that, I'm eternally grateful that no 'travel company' economist is in control of my household budget.
Having said that, I'm eternally grateful that no 'travel company' economist is in control of my household budget.
B
Babble
Guest
So high demand would mean lower prices?
I only brag about my UO adventures. Because I don't play this game for virtual goods, but for entertainment. I never was able to understand why someone would spend so much time in order to accumulate virtual wealth that is, in fact, completely valueless.
If UO one day should be shut down, I can only shrug and say "I had a good time, nothing is lost."
If UO one day should be shut down, I can only shrug and say "I had a good time, nothing is lost."
R
RavenWinterHawk
Guest
Ah rookie economist mistake.Your confusing game economy with real life economy.
#1 free printing of money. UO has that
#2 No gold sinnks.
#3 Item Based.
#4 Other thing besides gold have value. 60k resources.
Studied that a while and back to us.
Here is the extent of my knowledge of economics:
[YOUTUBE]JDMcQzYyEds[/YOUTUBE]
Stayin Alive,
BG
[YOUTUBE]JDMcQzYyEds[/YOUTUBE]
Stayin Alive,
BG
S
Sevin0oo0
Guest
Prices go up when a lot of people buy, Agreed
How many people buy in Luna? a lot
Lots of people, Lots of vendors, like a mall - and prices are typically higher in a mall, or one stop shopping areas. Agreed?
Remember too that they are trying to force a specific playstyle, and as normal, they screw that up too. People used to like meeting at WBB, just to socialize and I just don't see that happening at Luna.
Also like IRL, when a big box store comes in (Conglomerated Luna) there's gonna be smaller places go out of business, driving up prices further because of lowered availability.
So, why is anyone surprised that prices are higher there? duh
IMO, Allowing housing in Luna was the absolute best thing the 'powers that be', w/ all their infinite wisdom could have done to help kill UO.
How do you fix a huge F*-up like that?
How many people buy in Luna? a lot
Lots of people, Lots of vendors, like a mall - and prices are typically higher in a mall, or one stop shopping areas. Agreed?
Remember too that they are trying to force a specific playstyle, and as normal, they screw that up too. People used to like meeting at WBB, just to socialize and I just don't see that happening at Luna.
Also like IRL, when a big box store comes in (Conglomerated Luna) there's gonna be smaller places go out of business, driving up prices further because of lowered availability.
So, why is anyone surprised that prices are higher there? duh
IMO, Allowing housing in Luna was the absolute best thing the 'powers that be', w/ all their infinite wisdom could have done to help kill UO.
How do you fix a huge F*-up like that?
R
RavenWinterHawk
Guest
Luna has plenty of well managed and fair vendors. Take a look around.
Argh.
The problem is L's and G's is gold is never turned off. So the more that comes in game the higher (WANTED) items will be. Recall scrolls stay 45 gold. New items start out in 10's of mills and drop. Useful things stay around 15 million.
As long as gold isnt removed from the system, you get inflated prices or deflated currency.
Its not rocket science. And it is really trival any way. Consider a million to be 100k. And youll be fine.
Argh.
The problem is L's and G's is gold is never turned off. So the more that comes in game the higher (WANTED) items will be. Recall scrolls stay 45 gold. New items start out in 10's of mills and drop. Useful things stay around 15 million.
As long as gold isnt removed from the system, you get inflated prices or deflated currency.
Its not rocket science. And it is really trival any way. Consider a million to be 100k. And youll be fine.
You're saying I get a free 100mil when somebody leaves the game? Hot damn!
PS have a condescending smile and a pat on the head for your superior grasp of economics
T
Trebr Drab
Guest
You're right, but there's more to it that just that, as I'm sure you know.
It's about wide spread competition.
In the old days, while it took a while to build skills to GM, there was a lot of competition. Even players who didn't have houses to place vendors in, they would sell at the banks.
These days, UO has gone "like other games" and added more skills, power gaps, and harder to get resources. Simply put, they made it much more of a Power Gamer's system. With that, "the few" had much less competition. Add to that the amounts of gold that you mentioned, and "the few" started to become like magnets for all that gold, prices jumped because they could control prices through the lack of competition. Now days these players pretty much control the gold. It all goes through them. And if you sell for less, they swallow it up and resell it for more. And you get to turn around and give your gold back to them for whatever it is you need.
Imagine WoW, with level 80 characters with all their riches in Platinums compared to level 30's and their Gold. And imagine that the level 30's need what the level 80's have. And the level 80's won't sell for mere gold coin, and if they see something sellable for sale elsewhere for mere gold, they buy it and start selling it for Plats. That's sort of what we have in UO now.
Thank you AoS.
L
longshanks
Guest
i dont know if there is any inflation right now. i'd have to argue that prices have pretty much leveled off. Debate as you wish if current prices are too high but I dont see much inflation.
Example:
i've played almost 4 years.
A crimmy was 18-20 mln 4 years ago. priced pretty much the same
orny 13-15 mln
aof 8-13 mln
same
powerscrolls have dropped in value
use to see a swords 120 at 10 mln. 4-6 now
magery holds steady at around 15
mysticism 12-15
other power scrolls have come way down in price.
imbue sots were insanely expensive. they have dropped
taming sots are steady
things i see with inflation
the most noted is the conjurors garbs. 5 mln with no luck and 10 with have definately doubled in value.
high end rubble from magencia invasion has gone up.
essences have come down
Now if you want to argue about the cost of entry to new players, you might have a point, however joining a good guild coupled with the imbuing skill can get a guy upto speed pretty quickly these days.
so as to economics 3 things to remember.
buy low sell high
buy high sell higher
bull makes money, bear makes money, pig makes poo.
discuss
Example:
i've played almost 4 years.
A crimmy was 18-20 mln 4 years ago. priced pretty much the same
orny 13-15 mln
aof 8-13 mln
same
powerscrolls have dropped in value
use to see a swords 120 at 10 mln. 4-6 now
magery holds steady at around 15
mysticism 12-15
other power scrolls have come way down in price.
imbue sots were insanely expensive. they have dropped
taming sots are steady
things i see with inflation
the most noted is the conjurors garbs. 5 mln with no luck and 10 with have definately doubled in value.
high end rubble from magencia invasion has gone up.
essences have come down
Now if you want to argue about the cost of entry to new players, you might have a point, however joining a good guild coupled with the imbuing skill can get a guy upto speed pretty quickly these days.
so as to economics 3 things to remember.
buy low sell high
buy high sell higher
bull makes money, bear makes money, pig makes poo.
discuss
F
Fayled Dhreams
Guest
wuuf! Excuse me Petra, gonna have to hit the switch bzzzzz
challenge!gonna need a cite to verify any such " model / theory " so named ('travel company' economics)
You might be confusing "covering cost +%" , You also might be describing a micro economy ... which may easily be described as "elitist" and are "priced high" only to narrow the market they deal with ... gourmet food, limousine services, collecting Faux Faberge eggs ... things only the very rich can justify as "having a need for" .... merely because they have the coin for it.
which STILL models to "what the market will bear".
*shrugs* need a cite.
UOs Vekonomy(Virtual economy) does not have a parallel comparision in the real world. That would require an extraterrestrial race "playing" (creating and controlling) the rl economy ... from an invisible dimension.
sorry ... UO is a game ... that IS its place in reality ...
Don't lose sight of that ... it is what it is because we PRETEND it to be.
Losing sight of that is a step away from reality ...
and possibly collecting too many feral cats.
just saying ...
its only as real as you pretend it to be
R
RavenWinterHawk
Guest
It is a virtual economy with no OFF SPICHOT.
As long as gold pours in, and doesnt pour out. Items of need go up in price.
Come on, its not that tuff.
NPC dont have prices that reflect the amount of gold in the economy. Their prices are stagnet minus the way select items go up based on purchase.
Some items like scrolls and furniture can be easily made by our mamas so the prices stay the same.
Rarity is only a factor in the beginning.
ITEMS in demand - demand higher prices. Like Tangle.
But if getting 1 million was once hard, but now its like getting 100 million. More is paid for the wanted items.
That is why hunting for monsters for gold is waste of time. They carry little gold in comparison to what the economy holds.
Here is an example. I crushed glass from Gargoyle NPC blacksmiths. I made around 200 million.
I collected trick or treat cloth and made about 100 million
I sold metallic dye tubs when the first came out for 15 million and made like 60 million.
That is 360 million in a short time. Getting gold is not difficult. Wanting prices to stay low for the sake of them staying low is not economics.
Now that I have 360 million gold. WHAT THE F do I buy. NOTHING so I hold on to it.
As long as gold pours in, and doesnt pour out. Items of need go up in price.
Come on, its not that tuff.
NPC dont have prices that reflect the amount of gold in the economy. Their prices are stagnet minus the way select items go up based on purchase.
Some items like scrolls and furniture can be easily made by our mamas so the prices stay the same.
Rarity is only a factor in the beginning.
ITEMS in demand - demand higher prices. Like Tangle.
But if getting 1 million was once hard, but now its like getting 100 million. More is paid for the wanted items.
That is why hunting for monsters for gold is waste of time. They carry little gold in comparison to what the economy holds.
Here is an example. I crushed glass from Gargoyle NPC blacksmiths. I made around 200 million.
I collected trick or treat cloth and made about 100 million
I sold metallic dye tubs when the first came out for 15 million and made like 60 million.
That is 360 million in a short time. Getting gold is not difficult. Wanting prices to stay low for the sake of them staying low is not economics.
Now that I have 360 million gold. WHAT THE F do I buy. NOTHING so I hold on to it.
When SA came out magery 120s went from 8mill upto 22 mill, Turquoise rings with the right mods where selling fast at 25 mill.
I made few bill off of those 2 items alone and id sell one of each a day.
Now they have both dropped back down to around 12mill and im lucky if i sell one a week.
Its all about supply and demand, more people then its worth more less people and its worth less
Thunderz
I made few bill off of those 2 items alone and id sell one of each a day.
Now they have both dropped back down to around 12mill and im lucky if i sell one a week.
Its all about supply and demand, more people then its worth more less people and its worth less
Thunderz
LOL thats like the supermarkets that sell cheese for $4 for 1 but if you buy 2 for $8 the 2nd one if FREE......................!
Thunderz
Ahhh, but with less people playing there is not only less people buying items, but also selling items. So IF everything else was equal price would stay the same, but you have to take into account the "flavor of the month". You sold so many 120 magery's when SA first came out because a mystic mage was the new flavor of the month.
In a perfect world supply and demand would be a direct corelation for price inflation/deflation, but sadly UO, and everthing else in the world isn't perfect.
R
RavenWinterHawk
Guest
Its not only about demand. It also about usefullness and usefullness changes with each publish.
So that makes the economy imperfect. It isnt predictable.
I made 164 million off pink fishing scrolls by reading the change was coming.
So knowledge is good, greed is bad. Or is it greed is knowledge and bad is good.
And finally, not everyone that buys stuff uses the stuff. I buy up gizillions of things to make 20% or more off them. Then other merchants buy off me. And we all support our bad drug habit. And sometimes players want 9 of an item. So it isnt just about the number of REAL players in game.