What route would UO had taken if UO:R never had happened?

[virindiER]

Pretty simple question. Garriot commented that there are EQ model games, now dominating the market, and there are UO model games, of currently none exist - contemporary Ultima Online included.

What if UO stayed true to itself and kept its model intact? I'm talking Classic UO, but with the problems it had solved without turning to the EQ model. What would that look like today?

A few problems, not all, problems that Classic UO had:
1. No PvE endgame
2. No PvP endgame
3. PK's everywhere and no anti-pk'ers.
4. Quests/Storyline? What about the virtues?
5. Solution to macro'ers.

How would you solve the problems? Would you play a server that found a way to solve all of those problems while still keeping all the things we loved about Ultima Online intact?

I would.

 

[MalagAste]

Without UO:R I can pretty much guarantee that I and many others would never have played longer than the free trial period.

Infact a great many players who I know who "tried" UO in the pre-tram era quit right after the free trial.... Why? They simply could not play. Was too hard to gain skill or money when every few moments someone was either killing you or stealing from you.

Unless you had a leg up from actually "knowing" people who were playing being a "noob" sucked. Even in Tram being a "noob" sucked.

And having read the "manual" from UO:R..... made you not WANT to talk to anyone or get to know them. The entire manual pretty much told you not to EVER trust ANYONE.

Even now most folk who start UO not knowing anything or having "friends" on the inside who can help them..... most folk find the bar too high.... and get frustrated just walking around Luna looking at pricing. Even returnee's who are trying to "come back" complain quite a bit about the economics being severely out of reach for the average joe non-cheater... who doesn't purchase stuff with RL money.

And lets seriously face reality here..... even if they built a new "classic" shard.... 99% of the people who would start up over there would be those who stay to Fel now.... there wouldn't be any "noobs" to pick on ...... and most would be using the same cheats and what have you that they do now..... so there will be no easy targets it'll be the same ole thing as ever.... And within a few months will be as populated as Siege....

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

1. It never would have gone above the plateau it was reaching between the release of EQ and the release of UO:R

2. Because of 1, the downward slide would have been more pronounced and probably would have ended up with UO being even more of a niche game with FAR fewer servers if not completely shut down.

Separating the playstyles (or at the very least giving the choice between them) was absolutely the correct thing to do. The implementation of that separation has always been in debate, but either way it's FAAAR too late to complain about it. It's been the way it is for over a decade now.

 

[StaticOnAtlantic]

And having read the "manual" from UO:R..... made you not WANT to talk to anyone or get to know them. The entire manual pretty much told you not to EVER trust ANYONE.
.

Im so tired of you communicating lies to Uo.stratics.com. Where in the manual DOES IT EVER SCARE you from talking to anyone? Maybe Here?

Ultima online renaissance manual​

Social Etiquette​

it is important to Ultima Online As you become familiar with the basics of
remember the underlying premise of online worlds, you are not alone.
Thousands of other players make up the world along with you. Just as your
actions have meaning in the “real”world with the ability to affect others, so
to do your actions within an online game affect those around you.The fol-
: Ultima Online lowing are some basic guidelines for etiquette within
• When starting out, do not ask other players for gold or items. If you are
short of gold,we recommend asking people how they earned gold when
they were starting out. It is always okay to ask for help, it is not okay to ask
for handouts.
• “Do”“not”“type”“one”“word”“and”“hit”“enter.”You can enter 80 characters while typing any phrase in UO.Try not to break up your thoughts, or
you will likely be ignored.
• “DO NOT SHOUT!” Most people consider typing all in caps, sometimes
called “shouting”, rude.There is not ever an appropriate time to do it, even
if you are trying to emphasize a thought.
• Don’t name a character something foolish. People who see a character
named “Chucky D” are less likely to help that character or even associate
with them.There is no reason to give yourself a disadvantage with a name.
Even if you believe the character to be a “throw away”character,put some
thought into the name.You never know when you are going to run into
good fortune in the game.
• Use proper greetings.While “’Sup”may be completely appropriate among
your friends in the game,when speaking to strangers a nice “Hello”or even
a “Hail”will go a long way to improving the opinion others have of you.
(And their willingness to help you.)
• Try to communicate effectively with strangers.Though we encourage roleplaying, typing “thou art a felonious knave”may not be as effective as typing “you are a thief.” It is important to make sure you are understood.You
might save some of your better and more colorful language skills for
groups in the game of like mind.
• Just as you don’t want to obfuscate your intent with archaic language, you
also don’t want to have others ignore you because your sentences ignore
basic grammar rules.Typing “Plz Help me kill this drag0n” may get your
point across, but will probably also get you ignored.
.

What is so freaking hard and SCARY about this? Im lost.

I played Atlantic and I'm sorry I dont remember these DROVES of PK's Killing and pillaging, I do remember on occasion being killed BUT its part of the game. Because 2 of your friends wanted to go back and Play EQ means that the whole community wont function with a classic shard?


MalagAste- Do us a favor, Stop spinning this subject. And again it would not suprise me if you never comment back on this, You have these "drive by" comments that are complete lies without any backing.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

A few problems, not all, problems that Classic UO had:
1. No PvE endgame
2. No PvP endgame
3. PK's everywhere and no anti-pk'ers.
4. Quests/Storyline? What about the virtues?
5. Solution to macro'ers.

How would you solve the problems?

1. There was never supposed to be an 'end game' of any kind in UO. That is why introducing AoS borked up UO so badly. UO was never about the destination, it was about the journey...and when that journey only leads to specific areas where specific items can be obtained, then the journey itself is now a waste of time.

2. See #1. PvP was never supposed to be seperate from PvE...there was no PvP/PvE...there was only Ultima Online, and it was all part of the game.

3. There were Anti-PK'ers...just not enough of them to keep the PKs in check.

4. In Classic UO, real UO, players made their own quests, their own stroyline. That is what made UO different from quest driven games like EQ and WoW. Rather than just following steps handed down through some system, the players themselves determined what needed to be done. If PKs had overrun an area, the "quest" for those that were actually engaging in the game the way it was designed, was to find a way to get them out of that area, and to protect those that wanted to hunt there, craft there, socialize there, etc.

5. Macroing was only a problem when players did it to avoid the consequences of murder counts. Scripting, however, is another story.

Would I play a shard like that? Well...would it have AoS? Would it have Trammel? If not, then I most likely would. But it if had any sort of PvP switch, Trammel type area, or item based game play, then no, I would not.

But...such a world as you describe never existed, and likely never will.

Or will it?

 

[StaticOnAtlantic]

Pretty simple question. Garriot commented that there are EQ model games, now dominating the market, and there are UO model games, of currently none exist - contemporary Ultima Online included.

What if UO stayed true to itself and kept its model intact? I'm talking Classic UO, but with the problems it had solved without turning to the EQ model. What would that look like today?

A few problems, not all, problems that Classic UO had:
1. No PvE endgame
2. No PvP endgame
3. PK's everywhere and no anti-pk'ers.
4. Quests/Storyline? What about the virtues?
5. Solution to macro'ers.

How would you solve the problems? Would you play a server that found a way to solve all of those problems while still keeping all the things we loved about Ultima Online intact?

I would.

No PvE endgame & No PvP endgame
I think it would have been adaptation as what has happened now, PVE & PVP endgame in UO was none existent because in other MMPORG games, ENDGAME wasn't there either, As MMPORG's evolved this idea was implemented, and UO would have followed suit. But UO was never made for endgame EVER.

PK's everywhere and no anti-pk'ers.
Where? Pk's Everywhere, I dont understand this comment still from players, I have spoke to a few who said it was so bad you couldn't leave town, Then others like me and a few friends can only remember being killed on a few occasions.

Quests/Storyline? What about the virtues?
Like my first answer it would have been implemented in the game. The question though is framed like UO is a quest grinding society, where-as its not. UO was never meant to have a quest system. Virtues and story line yes.

Solution to macro'ers.
Still happening now, and always will. Until EA decides to shut down that side. which they can.

 

[MalagAste]

Im so tired of you communicating lies to Uo.stratics.com. Where in the manual DOES IT EVER SCARE you from talking to anyone? Maybe Here?

Ultima online renaissance manual​

What is so freaking hard and SCARY about this? Im lost.

I played Atlantic and I'm sorry I dont remember these DROVES of PK's Killing and pillaging, I do remember on occasion being killed BUT its part of the game. Because 2 of your friends wanted to go back and Play EQ means that the whole community wont function with a classic shard?


MalagAste- Do us a favor, Stop spinning this subject.

How about you do everyone else a favor and get over Trammel already.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

How about you do everyone else a favor and get over Trammel already.

It's pretty much impossible for those of us whose gameplay style was completely destroyed due to Trammel to just "get over it". Sorry, but we feel the same way about Trammel as you likely feel about PKs. If the developers suddenly made the entire game Fel ruleset, the litany of complaints from Trammel players would make our complaints pale by comparison.

The problem with you MalagAste, is that you have no ability to look at things from anyone else's perspective. And I dare say that is true of most carebears that play UO today.

 

[StaticOnAtlantic]

How about you do everyone else a favor and get over Trammel already.

You start lies, you never answer in a logical way. and then AGAIN a drive by comment.

 

[Bill Gates OSD]

Geez... and I got a warning for "trolling". Enough with the frigging debates about classic shards, UO:R, AOS et al. Yeah, I know... "Put them on ignore". DONE! Damn shame about all of the helpful info that will limit though, don't ya think? Maybe another forum, and thus the ad revenue that they will get (HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) will be less tolerant of the incessant GD classic shard blathering!

 

[Skrag]

The smart thing to do would have been to just invent shard transfers years earlier than they were invented for real, Trammelize the existing shards, and let anyone who didn't like it transfer out to a smaller number of PVP shards.

You were never going to get the bulk of the playerbase to sit there in a PVP world and like it. Attempts to make them would just result in the game being strangled.

Also, something much like AOS would have been required sooner or later. People weren't going to sit on their tank mages and collect vanq swords forever. New skills/items/etc. were a must.

 

[Ox AO]

You didn't even give the most obvious answer. Which I expected UO to take from the beginning.

Rather then destroying the old lands as they did with trammel they could have given the Anti-PKers an obvious advantage.
Some very simple things that could have been done:

1. Open a gate at Brit bank at the location were a red player attacks a blue player with statistics of all players in the area written on the gate.

2. a blue Militia force which these players are the only ones able to use the best items much like the items used in Factions now.

3. communication system only for the blue Militia force.

4. a detective who can look at a body and see who killed him and were the location of that player is that killed him.

5. some kind of punishment when a PKer is killed by a blue player such as angle Island.

You get the idea. Allow the anti-PKers a means to rid of the PKers naturally rather than deleting the whole UO concept.

 

[Corwin]

I have been playing since Beta Phase III. I started in Great Lakes because there was only three shards in the beginning and GL was in the middle so my Diablo guild friends from both coasts could all play. So maybe my experience is a lot different from people from other shards.

I was ready to quit prior to UOR. I was tired of all the PKs. And it seems you all forget the rampant cheating back in the early days. I remember PKs hiding outside of your house, killing you, taking your key, stealing all your stuff and your house! I remember the ghost through the door system to rip off all your stuff. I remember guilds of PKs blocking roadways in ambush as you ran from town to town. I remember thieves so good that they would disarm you and steal your best sword before you even knew what was going on.

I was fed up. It seemed the killers and thieves had the advance and I was only playing in their world.

Yep. I would have quit. And I may not have a great 110 guild anymore or five accounts. But I do have two accounts and have played for over 13 years.

Am I the exception or the rule?

 

[Viper09]

And having read the "manual" from UO:R..... made you not WANT to talk to anyone or get to know them. The entire manual pretty much told you not to EVER trust ANYONE.

You really got that from the manual? Lmao! A paranoid person you must be. Nothing scary in that manual at all.

 

[StaticOnAtlantic]

You didn't even give the most obvious answer. Which I expected UO to take from the beginning.

Rather destroying the old lands as they did with trammel they could have given the Anti-PKers an obvious advantage.
Some very simple things that could have been done:

1. Open a gate at Brit bank at the location were a red player attacks a blue player with statistics of all players in the area written on the gate.

2. a blue Militia force which these players are the only ones able to use the best items much like the items used in Factions now.

3. communication system only for the blue Militia force.

4. a detective who can look at a body and see who killed him and were the location of that player is that killed him.

5. some kind of punishment when a PKer is killed by a blue player such as angle Island.

You get the idea. Allow the anti-PKers a means to rid of the PKers naturally rather than deleting the whole UO concept.

some really good ideas.

 

[Ox AO]

I have been playing since Beta Phase III. I started in Great Lakes because there was only three shards in the beginning and GL was in the middle so my Diablo guild friends from both coasts could all play. So maybe my experience is a lot different from people from other shards.

I was ready to quit prior to UOR. I was tired of all the PKs. And it seems you all forget the rampant cheating back in the early days. I remember PKs hiding outside of your house, killing you, taking your key, stealing all your stuff and your house! I remember the ghost through the door system to rip off all your stuff. I remember guilds of PKs blocking roadways in ambush as you ran from town to town. I remember thieves so good that they would disarm you and steal your best sword before you even knew what was going on.

I was fed up. It seemed the killers and thieves had the advance and I was only playing in their world.

Yep. I would have quit. And I may not have a great 110 guild anymore or five accounts. But I do have two accounts and have played for over 13 years.

Am I the exception or the rule?

At the time UO came out there wasn't enough land for everyone to place a secured home.
Housing wasn't supposed to work like it does today. It was a really big item to lose when you lost your key.

Today obviously that isn't needed. My opinion they should make larger castles for those who want to pay for it.

 

[NorCal]

The smart thing to do would have been to just invent shard transfers years earlier than they were invented for real, Trammelize the existing shards, and let anyone who didn't like it transfer out to a smaller number of PVP shards.

You were never going to get the bulk of the playerbase to sit there in a PVP world and like it. Attempts to make them would just result in the game being strangled.

Also, something much like AOS would have been required sooner or later. People weren't going to sit on their tank mages and collect vanq swords forever. New skills/items/etc. were a must.

That is exactly what they should have done and why Trammel was a mistake. Hindsight is 20/20, but games like WoW had the luxury of seeing what EQ and UO did right and wrong. So they have PvP and PvE servers and nobody complains because they aren't forced to co-exist. They know what they are signing up for and have a choice, if they make a mistake and don't like their choice they can character transfer to a PvE server. WoW also learned that players hate to die then have the person who killed them stand over their corpse and yell "pwned noob" as the dry loot the corpse. They made it so horde and alliance speak different languages and all items are blessed. The result is dying is meaningless, so even PvP servers are nothing like classic UO.

Some of us liked the thrill of playing in a world were life or death actually mattered and would play a classic shard if one was available.

 

[Skrag]

You didn't even give the most obvious answer. Which I expected UO to take from the beginning.

Rather then destroying the old lands as they did with trammel they could have given the Anti-PKers an obvious advantage.
Some very simple things that could have been done:

All of this stuff still assumes that everyone wants to play a game which is entirely about PKs and fighting PKs.

 

[StaticOnAtlantic]

All of this stuff still assumes that everyone wants to play a game which is entirely about PKs and fighting PKs.

Just lost about everyone thinking this is a pvp idea, many who want this are not pvper's, but find it to be nessary. I find the idea of having community and needing classes a huge advantage for the classic side. As of right now UO has no community, except in rare occasions. 95% of players are "one man bands".

 

[phantus]

Separating the pvp and pve would have been necessary in any circumstances. As with all things Ultima Online, it was the implementation that was absurd. They should have made the existing lands "trammelized" with contested areas for pvp. PvP games like capture the flag and that line should have been implemented. Dueling etc etc... Champ spawns or similar for PvE. Quests....etc etc. Basically, all the things UO failed on and other games picked up and ran with.

If they would have done nothing the game would have slumped continually and been closed by WoW. Instead, it's managing to limp along with a skeleton crew running the show for a giant profit driven entity that could care less about the game itself or it's content.

UO's days are numbered and it's time for another "trammel" type of move to make the game continue to thrive. Or....death by booster pack. I guess we'll see...

 

[HD2300]

UO:R was released May 2000. You can see clearly that Trammel didnt adversely affect subscriptions. Back this up with Devs saying Trammel was introduced because UO lost over 6 digits (i.e. lost more than 100,000 subscribers) due to griefing. Trammel saved UO. Case Closed.

If anything they should introduce only Trammel ruleset servers. Darkfall, Siege and Mortal Online have shown that sandbox PvP only rulesets are not profitable. Fact is few will pay $13/month to rent a Commodore 64, when they can rent a Quad Core i7 now for the same price. Even fewer will pay $13/month to rent a Commodore 64, when they can get it now for free.

 

[Babble]

My guess is they would have gained new subscriptions slower and EA would have made UO2 or UOX which would be EQ clones anyway.

With EA's commitment to UO I don't really see a way they would have made improvements like DAOC did for their pvp or a one server concept like EVE or a better Pve endgame like even EQ had.

Sorry but the visions of EA's producer/developing teams were very poor and shortsighted.

 

[DENNAR]

Im so tired of you communicating lies to Uo.stratics.com. Where in the manual DOES IT EVER SCARE you from talking to anyone? Maybe Here?

Ultima online renaissance manual​

What is so freaking hard and SCARY about this? Im lost.

I played Atlantic and I'm sorry I dont remember these DROVES of PK's Killing and pillaging, I do remember on occasion being killed BUT its part of the game. Because 2 of your friends wanted to go back and Play EQ means that the whole community wont function with a classic shard?


MalagAste- Do us a favor, Stop spinning this subject. And again it would not suprise me if you never comment back on this, You have these "drive by" comments that are complete lies without any backing.

Well I have been here since 1998 and Static you are wrong. The manual did say not to trust anyone. I was a counselor and we were told to tell people not to trust anyone.

Your hatred for trammel is obvious. I will share my first weeks of UO to prove just how blind you are to the truth.

I start in Brit I start walking around soon I am out of the city limits I get attacked by 3 players and die in an instant--I get the question would I like to reincarnate--I say yes--guess what? They kill me again. It took me 4 times to learn to say know. Each time I see them LOL'ing and making insults at me.

I close the game down. I dont log back in for a couple of days. I stuck it out. I did not know anyone and found that everytime I tried to talk to someone I either got killed or they stole whateve I had on me. This was Lake Superior. The game was full of assssshats back then, who's sole purpose was to make gameplay of others unbearable. Saying that this wasn't the case only proves to me you either didn't play back then or you just like to lie and hope some people believe you.

Everytime I left the town limits for the first 6 mos I got killed within 3 mins. Everytime in the first year I went to a dungeon with a group we were attacked. I lost 3 houses to people camping them to kill me and steal the key.

I know dozens of people that left UO because of the PK's. Even the tabloids that covered online gaming printed about the rampant pk'ing in UO being a huge problem.

Your statement that you dont recall rampant pk's only proves to me just what you are all about.

 

[Uvtha]

Pretty simple question. Garriot commented that there are EQ model games, now dominating the market, and there are UO model games, of currently none exist - contemporary Ultima Online included.

What if UO stayed true to itself and kept its model intact? I'm talking Classic UO, but with the problems it had solved without turning to the EQ model. What would that look like today?

A few problems, not all, problems that Classic UO had:
1. No PvE endgame
2. No PvP endgame
3. PK's everywhere and no anti-pk'ers.
4. Quests/Storyline? What about the virtues?
5. Solution to macro'ers.

How would you solve the problems? Would you play a server that found a way to solve all of those problems while still keeping all the things we loved about Ultima Online intact?

I would.

Well, UOR had nothing to do with anything on that list other than #3 and your #3 is a gross overstatement seeing as statloss had cut pk numbers to like 10% of what they were back in 98.

What direction could UO have taken? Who knows. Tram was a huge mistake no matter how you look at it. I agree pks had too much freedom, but statloss was a terrible idea because it was TOO restrictive, and Tram was pure overkill that shattered the long standing communities and lead rampant scripting and gold farming that ended up as the wrecked economy we see now.

The problem with UO:R isn't that it tried to address a non existent game flaw, thats not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that it was probably the WORST possible choice they could have made. Even a pvp toggle would have been better. And not only that it was done in needless haste, because like I said the design flaw that was there in relation to player freedom was not anywhere near as dire as people make it out to be.

I remember that time well, I was someone who had frequently tangled with pks, and in the months before UO:R the VAST majority of pking happened in a handful of hot spots, since the lone wolf pk had been marginalized to near non existence by perma stat-loss coupled the high probability of latency related disconnects. There was time to think up a better solution that the terrible one they did come up with. It was all Everquest spurred reactionary design.

UO was actively growing pre UO:R. Ive never read anything about UO losing 100k players, from devs or from any of the sub number sites, coupled with my having been a very active player at the time, and remembering finding people literally everywhere.

UO only started to lose players after UO:R. This isnt wholly the fault of the idiotic design that greatly undermined the existing communities and caused the other problems I mentioned, but also because yes, everquest did steal a lot of players. That would have happened no matter what because EQ looked so fancy at the time. People were really excited by the prospect of a full 3d mmo.

HOWEVER... the state the game is in now could have ended up VASTLY better if UO:R had been scrapped for another, better, less lazy idea. There were dozens of player concepts that were far and away better options than the ludicrous world copy.

I honestly don't see how its even open for debate. UO:R was a debacle.

I think what needed to be done was to give tools and rewards for anti pk activities. The "Angel Island" concept for those who remember it was the PERFECT example of a creative and functional alternative.
It gave the virtuous players a tool to remove the "troublemakers" from the area for extended periods, while not destroying the game for the bad guys.
Or it could have been as simple as safety zones, or giving people a pvp bubble they could turn on for x hours a day. There were any number of suitable solutions, and non game ravaging stop gaps that could have been implemented untill a good solution could have been devised.

I have always thought that "reds" were a very unappreciated factor of what could make a game stable. They prevent scripting, and other means of rapid inflow of in-game currency and resources, all the while adding to the element of excitement and adding a more real triumph and danger to the game. The only problem is when they are poorly dealt with, which has always been the problem in UO. Its always been far too little or far too much.

Things like pvm end game and quests are cake. They really don't require the kind of forethought that creating a stable and interactive social community does, even though a lot of what UO has is pretty shallow and repetitious, but those are sadly qualities that people are often looking for in their gaming.

And I think that might be the real crux of the issue. Gaming shifted from adventure/enjoying an experience centric to goal oriented/accomplishment centric where rather than have a battle with an dakr wizard (played by a real player) where you and your rag tag group triumph over evil, they would rather grind for 40 hours to get the magical plate arms of the medusa etc...

 

[Uvtha]

Your statement that you dont recall rampant pk's only proves to me just what you are all about.

Well if you are the same DENNAR from LS, I played with you back then as well (as A Mongbat, and Wabaooie primarily) and I can say that I DO remember when pking WAS rampant, and that was pre-statloss. Murder and griefing was absolutely out of control. Basically all of 98.

Pre-UO:R not so much. By summer of 2000 perma statloss had cut pk numbers DRASTICALLY. It was only a problem if you, like a dope, spent your time at deceit LL, or some other terribly obvious hotspot.

 

[StaticOnAtlantic]

Ok "Denar" Lets break down your comments and you.

Well I have been here since 1998 and Static you are wrong. The manual did say not to trust anyone. I was a counselor and we were told to tell people not to trust anyone.

Really? Since 1998, Well welcome back, but do a little research, I posted from the manual, If you need it translated in a different language let me know. NO where in the pages does it ever say "Dont trust anyone". The whole Counselor thing, It sounds that you might need some, You have 2 conflicting statements, first you say its in the manual, which its not. Then you were told to tell people that, From who and why? And im doubting you were a counselor But ill get to that later.

Your hatred for trammel is obvious.

Really? I mean, Its amazing someone who doesn't play anymore can have so much insight? I hate trammel? I do, I think there was many different ideas that have been proposed, but the road was never taken.

I start in Brit I start walking around soon I am out of the city limits I get attacked by 3 players and die in an instant--I get the question would I like to reincarnate--I say yes--guess what? They kill me again. It took me 4 times to learn to say know. Each time I see them LOL'ing and making insults at me.

I close the game down. I dont log back in for a couple of days. I stuck it out. I did not know anyone and found that everytime I tried to talk to someone I either got killed or they stole whateve I had on me. This was Lake Superior. The game was full of assssshats back then, who's sole purpose was to make gameplay of others unbearable.

You must of been SO mad, you logged on your "Counselor" and banned them right?

Saying that this wasn't the case only proves to me you either didn't play back then or you just like to lie and hope some people believe you.

I did play but, I had this magical skill of Talking, and communicating, and not a panic prone crazy telling everyone DO NOT TRUST anyone, I followed the MANUAL..... something you never read, as a player or a "counselor".

Your statement that you dont recall rampant pk's only proves to me just what you are all about.

Huh? I wish I could understand anything in your baggage of a post, I have stated that PK'S were there, Just dont recall the slitting of my wrist each time I was jumped, Maybe I looked at playing games different.


Lets prove who you really are, Im a bit confused about your history, First you claim your a counselor. Then I look at your history, and im a little confused. One on post you claim you had 22 accounts on another only 10, This is the first post that you claim you were a counselor. Im just a little lost in your "magical" story of Dennar.

But im sure you will have "friends" *cough cough* another account to "qualify"you.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

here is your (requested "Pretty simple question") pretty simple answer:

Different route different outcome. Based on the "certain" nature of game play.
Some different group would have liked it as some different group would have hated it.
and between those "new different" groupings ...a bulk of grey "non-extremists".

By the way, ONE of the faults in your construction of a "hypothetical" question.

You assume that there ever was a "true nature"

... if UO stayed true to itself and kept its model intact.

not established as a "fact".
(its "model" came in shedding "pieces" since day one)
observe

you are welcome

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

From the article linked to above:

The puppets had cut their strings and taken over their world.

And Trammel put the strings back in place.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

From the article linked to above:

Quote:
The puppets had cut their strings and taken over their world.

And Trammel put the strings back in place.

Because many of those puppets were too entirely GIFTed for their (and the game's) own good.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

From the article linked to above:

The puppets had cut their strings and taken over their world.

And Trammel put the strings back in place.

yeah so?

Are you meaning to imply the "The Creators" true intent was to lose "control" of their creation?

I think your implication is biased and prejudiced.

I also think that the theft of a thing does not equal Full rights of ownership ... doh!

 

[StaticOnAtlantic]

here is your (requested "Pretty simple question") pretty simple answer:

Different route different outcome. Based on the "certain" nature of game play.
Some different group would have liked it as some different group would have hated it.
and between those "new different" groupings ...a bulk of grey "non-extremists".

By the way, ONE of the faults in your construction of a "hypothetical" question.

You assume that there ever was a "true nature"
not established as a "fact".
(its "model" came in shedding "pieces" since day one)
observe

you are welcome

Maybe i missed the point about that story, It has really nothing to do with this discussion. Yeah it talks about PK's and thieves, It talks about how Richard lost control of UO and that players run the game.. because they play an alternate person.

 

[DENNAR]

Ok "Denar" Lets break down your comments and you.



Really? Since 1998, Well welcome back, but do a little research, I posted from the manual, If you need it translated in a different language let me know. NO where in the pages does it ever say "Dont trust anyone". The whole Counselor thing, It sounds that you might need some, You have 2 conflicting statements, first you say its in the manual, which its not. Then you were told to tell people that, From who and why? And im doubting you were a counselor But ill get to that later.



Really? I mean, Its amazing someone who doesn't play anymore can have so much insight? I hate trammel? I do, I think there was many different ideas that have been proposed, but the road was never taken.


You must of been SO mad, you logged on your "Counselor" and banned them right?




I did play but, I had this magical skill of Talking, and communicating, and not a panic prone crazy telling everyone DO NOT TRUST anyone, I followed the MANUAL..... something you never read, as a player or a "counselor".



Huh? I wish I could understand anything in your baggage of a post, I have stated that PK'S were there, Just dont recall the slitting of my wrist each time I was jumped, Maybe I looked at playing games different.


Lets prove who you really are, Im a bit confused about your history, First you claim your a counselor. Then I look at your history, and im a little confused. One on post you claim you had 22 accounts on another only 10, This is the first post that you claim you were a counselor. Im just a little lost in your "magical" story of Dennar.

But im sure you will have "friends" *cough cough* another account to "qualify"you.

Questioning my truthfullness is only fair since I questioned yours.

As to your points:

What manual are you quoting? The original one or a recent version? I certainly did not save mine, you did? I am speaking from memory, I do not have anything to back me up except me. As far as me speaking to players as a counselor, that is again my statement. I was a counselor on Great Lakes, named Old Man. I responded to many players summoning a counselor complaining about being killed or stolen from or trusting someone only to be scammed. It was our response to tell people not to trust anyone as mentioned in the players manual. Dont believe me--I don't care. Maybe other ex counselors will pipe in.

As far as not playing anymore I have been back for some where between 3-4 months now. And yes there were many ideas tossed around before Trammel was announced. I do not challenge that. I challange your statement about not seeing any rampant pk'ing going on. Did you play back before Trammel? If you did you cant honestly say you didn't see rampent PK'ing.

Counselors could not ban people wise arse. You could jail someone but you better have a good reason to send someone to jail or you could be dismissed. Also back then counselors could not play they shard they worked as a counselor on.

As far as my account numbers, well if I counted all the accounts I have had I have no idea how many that would be, but as far as how many at one time, it was somewhere between 10-12 active at the same time, this was evidenced by the player run city I had built by myself for crafters. Now it is just one.

So static any more questions about my integrity? I call you a liar about not seeing rampent pk'ing and you come back questioning my integrity, nice misdirection there bub. Lets just talk about what UO was like pre trammel, and not try to bash someone's character.

I stated my experience of pre trammel, as many others have. I have seen little to no posts claiming there was no rampent pk'ing except for your post. I think the numbers of posts over the years on MYUO and stratics supporting my experience prove my point.

Oh and btw Petra was able to get my old name back for me. If that was what you were referring to about multiple accounts.

Try bashing someone else.

 

[DENNAR]

Well if you are the same DENNAR from LS, I played with you back then as well (as A Mongbat, and Wabaooie primarily) and I can say that I DO remember when pking WAS rampant, and that was pre-statloss. Murder and griefing was absolutely out of control. Basically all of 98.

Pre-UO:R not so much. By summer of 2000 perma statloss had cut pk numbers DRASTICALLY. It was only a problem if you, like a dope, spent your time at deceit LL, or some other terribly obvious hotspot.

Yes I am that little ol Bowyer back again.

Thanks for supporting my statement about rampent pk'ing. Statloss did some to stop some of the pk'ing but it also brought out more coordinated groups.

I agree looking back Trammel was not the best solution, and for years I was known as "MR Trammie"

My favorite idea back then was:

If you made your house public you could hire city guards and have 3 spaces around the entire building and the building become a guard zone. That would have eliminated the thieves in vendor houses and the hidden pk's that would kill a vendor owner or customer in a shop. It would also alow people to enter thier homes without consequence.

My first shop was a tower west of Brit. PK's would camp it to kill customers and myself. This was when Towers were hard to get and worth a ton. This one guild wanted me to give them my tower for thier guild. They killed me constantly when I would recall in to stock vendors. They would kill customers daily to keep them away. I had to hire anti-pks to drive them off. I started to question how much longer I was going to play this "GAME". But I am stubborn and was not going to let them drive me out.

I was happy for Trammel when it came out. But over the years I saw the damage that Trammel has done to the game and the player community. Trammel might not have been so bad if there was no malas ever added.

Hellos again.

 

[DENNAR]

Dermott I love your link !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[StaticOnAtlantic]

What manual are you quoting?

I quoted the exact txt from the manual, No missing words nothing out of context.

Did you play back before Trammel?If you did you cant honestly say you didn't see rampent PK'ing.

I did, I can remember the day tram dropped, Crashed damn near every server because everyone was trying to place a house.

Like I have said in many post relating to this subject, I have stated there was Pk'ing, But i just accepted it. maybe I didnt leave town that much, I have no idea, I remember alot about the game back then, but not being jumped. Maybe its my mind blocking out bad memories? (Nope). I just accepted it as part of the game.


-only reason I questioned your truthfulness is because your comments are just all over the place, Your for it against it, then you were a counselor. You qualify yourself throughout, which again has no place.

I dont attack people unless provoked. Everyone here who post I believe cares about UO'S life. Weather its Classic or "normal" UO will go on without us.

Theres maybe another 100,xxx players who dont even know Uo.stratics.com exist, not saying its a bad thing but 1 out of 100 is speaking for the population.

I find my opinions valid, as is yours. But Im going to keep speaking until there is a final answer from EA/Mythic Studios

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

Dermott I love your link !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Marvelous Find !!! +1 credits to Dermott for sharing

Re linked for emphasis (and adding a NSFW/ pg13 required advisory: coarse Language)

GIFT - Television Tropes & Idioms

add in

Fallacies

and we might be able to return to Adult civil debate as a general rule ...

hey! ain't nothing really wrong for trying to raise the nature of discourse ... is it?

Well Met Sirrahs! well met indeed.

Fayled

 

[DENNAR]

Being passionette (sp) about UO is a good thing. On that we will both agree.

As I have stated many times I was Mr. Trammie for many years. As I decided to quit UO a few years ago I did alot of thinking about what in UO had changed so much for me. Cheating was a major issue in making my decision to leave.

But I also came to the conclusion that Trammel hurt UO more than it helped it over the long run. I posted as much, as I was leaving.

I don't have an answer as to what would make UO great again. My game now is very different now. No vendors, only sell something if I need some gold, I use player made items only, no more running events. I use UO to relax.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Here's the thing. Many PvPers think that the issue that non-PvPers have has to do with combat and more directly losing. But that has never been the case.

It's been shown time and again over the past 13 years that the combat itself had very little to do with the issue of PvP vs non-PvP.

Whether Lum reported on it, or Raph mentioned it, or Lord British, or Azaroth (IPY), it all came down to the same problem... G.I.F.T. That's what drives people away from a game That's what they want to NOT deal with (or at least deal with as little as possible). That's the reason why an entire guild (MDK) was tossed out of UO... not because they were PKs, but because they are blatent examples of GIFT.

GIFT is bad for online business and why games that involve PvP tend to try to take this into account. UO learned this the hard way and adjusted accordingly.

Honestly "to make UO great again" I think would be a HUGE undertaking both for the devs and the players and in the end would most likely involve everyone having to accept an entire game wipe/reset so that the shards could start anew with some being PvP, some not, system rewritten and implemented, old imbalances removed, new concepts tested, and, yes... ditching antiquated and badly compromised clients in favor of one new client that retained the look and style of UO while giving the option to push the envelope in terms of graphics and effects.

Quite frankly I think that's something that may be too big of a scope for the game.

 

[HD2300]

Honestly "to make UO great again" I think would be a HUGE undertaking both for the devs and the players ... ditching antiquated and badly compromised clients in favor of one new client that retained the look and style of UO while giving the option to push the envelope in terms of graphics and effects.

Quite frankly I think that's something that may be too big of a scope for the game.

I agree substandard clients are holding the game back. I disagree that it is too big of an undertaking. DOAC and WAR use the same game engine as KR and EC. They just need to eliminate the commonality the last 2 unsuccessful attempts.

 

[copycon]

...

Here's the thing. Many PvPers think that the issue that non-PvPers have has to do with combat and more directly losing. But that has never been the case.

It's been shown time and again over the past 13 years that the combat itself had very little to do with the issue of PvP vs non-PvP.

Whether Lum reported on it, or Raph mentioned it, or Lord British, or Azaroth (IPY), it all came down to the same problem... G.I.F.T. That's what drives people away from a game That's what they want to NOT deal with (or at least deal with as little as possible). That's the reason why an entire guild (MDK) was tossed out of UO... not because they were PKs, but because they are blatent examples of GIFT.

I agree with most of this. I do think however that the "GIFT" factor is being exaggerated though. One thing that every person that decides to become involved in online gaming should understand is that there will always be a select few players who will make it their sole intention to disrupt when competition is involved. The person that is on the receiving end is then charged with making a decision of what to do about it. It is a hard lesson to learn and a hard pill to swallow to be sure, but it is a necessary evil partly to maintain balance (re: link in signature).

To further clarify, the introduction of Trammel did not remove the "GIFT" players. It simply limited their ability to disrupt others and also had a hugely negative impact by splitting the player base between worlds and "butchering" the economy among other things which was the source of my frustration as a player at the time.

That said, I'm a believer that a large number of players will always be waiting for a better option and will continue to move on to the next best thing when it becomes available. I think that element combined with the over saturation of the MMO industry and the aging player base is largely the cause for the decline in subscriber numbers for UO. So, I think that if the powers at EA/Mythic want to keep UO profitable they should give serious consideration by appealing to potential customers by providing a product that is in demand.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I think your implication is biased and prejudiced.

It was from YOUR link.

And it wasn't really MY implication...

...perhaps you misread the article?

 

[gunneroforgin]

I know that I for one would not be playing UO today if UO-R had not been introduced. Having a choice of to PVP or not to pvp definetly made my mind up to try this game.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

I agree with most of this. I do think however that the "GIFT" factor is being exaggerated though.

Well writ, but quite wide of the "mark".

"Churn" ... the rapid turn over in new and remaining(retained) subscriptions was the driving force in Separating the masses.
It is not only not "overstated" ... it is scarcely ever directly acknowledged in the ten years long "de-brief" ...
not to mention NOT being a well defined or examined concept in and of itself (its a beancounter thang)
*shrugs*
My point is: while uninformed opinions/feelings are "okay" in and of themselves
"overlooking" or dismissing a pertinent variable usually (invariably I dare say) leads to incorrect analysis.

In short: Gifted players caused churn, churn caused tram to be implemented ... did fel become overcrowded?
*grins*

Expanded short:
Role Players, in general, do not like to deal with Gifted players in an environment.
Gifted players do Not Mind playing with other Gifted players ... *snicker* (see what I did thar?)
Role players, in the absence of the gifted ones ... are content
Gifted players complain: where's the fresh meat?

Which group, if there can be such a distinction made, should EA etal. cater to?

burma shave.

 

[Skrag]

The game didn't peak in subscribers until a couple years after Trammel, and has managed to survive to this day while still getting new content and live events. I think realistically the game is doing far better than a 13 year old MMO with sprite graphics has any right to expect.

The notion that the game has been "broken" for the 80% of its existence that has gone by since Trammel is mostly the invention of a tiny hardcore minority of forum posters. There are veterans of this game with a decade of seniority who don't even remember the pre-Trammel game because it was just that bloody long ago.

 

[Babble]

yeah so?

Are you meaning to imply the "The Creators" true intent was to lose "control" of their creation?

I think your implication is biased and prejudiced.

I also think that the theft of a thing does not equal Full rights of ownership ... doh!

Better men than game designers failed at 'controlling' societies.


That they even thought they could was very naive of them

 

[Babble]

The game didn't peak in subscribers until a couple years after Trammel, and has managed to survive to this day while still getting new content and live events. I think realistically the game is doing far better than a 13 year old MMO with sprite graphics has any right to expect.

The notion that the game has been "broken" for the 80% of its existence that has gone by since Trammel is mostly the invention of a tiny hardcore minority of forum posters. There are veterans of this game with a decade of seniority who don't even remember the pre-Trammel game because it was just that bloody long ago.

I think the mmo market still has not reached the peak.
If any company manages to make a decent sims online and get the women gaming population into mmos then we might see a doubling of the numbers of gamers playing mmos.

That UO still grew does not mean anything as long as the mmo market itself grew

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Wow to just about everyone in here.

I can't even remember the first day I played this game, I can remember it being in 97. I do not remember "rampant" pking, I died no more before UO:R than I did after. Trammel was not the best option, although a needed one. UO gained and lost subs leading up to UO:R it also gained and lost subs after UO:R to assume UO:R saved or killed UO is naive.

This argument has gone on for so long, and between the same exact people all the time. Everyone needs to accept certain truths. UO:R while game changing, was needed. AoS while absolutely horrifying was needed. And just about every other addition to the game was "needed" (ML and SE are still in debate for me as far as what they added...but the expansions were "needed") UO in it original state would never have lasted as long as UO has, Were there mistakes? Yes. Can they be changed? Unlikely.

People have gotten use to playing this game with the changes, there is no taking them back. Sure for the few who think playing pre UO:R might actually still work, there could be an addition of such a thing. But I honest do not believe it could sustain itself, I also do not believe it would last "that long" given no forward development.

 

[Babble]

Don't know but isn't the Meridian game still running and it is older than UO with less upgrades?

I really doubt UO needed all the changes EA did, why else did we get 'I survived AOS' memorabilia

 

[Tazar]

why else did we get 'I survived AOS' memorabilia

Because of severe server instability and the inability to log in... The constant shard crashes and reverts... The 4 hour waits for a GM only to have the shard crash/revert and start over... The placing a great house spot only to have the shard crash and revert...

It certainly wasn't because of the new content...

 

[Aragon100]

Because of severe server instability and the inability to log in... The constant shard crashes and reverts... The 4 hour waits for a GM only to have the shard crash/revert and start over... The placing a great house spot only to have the shard crash and revert...

It certainly wasn't because of the new content...

It was exactly the new content that made thousand upon thousand of old UO veterans leave the game when AoS was introduced. They left for their only available option freeshards since there beloved classic UO was dead and buried.