Imagine This UO

[Cloak&Dagger]

Hey Morgana, remember when Trammel came out and everyone was bored and they all fled to a new generation of exciting PVP games featuring complex systems of player justice and consequences?

Oh yeah, that never happened. Funny how your opinion of what everyone totally wanted wasn't actually shared by anyone making games. Well, anyone making successful games.

Face it, you're a dinosaur even among UO players. An evolutionary dead end. Your tastes are so weird and obscure that almost no one will actually make a game for you, the few that try rarely ever end up making any money, and instead you end up playing pirate shards and haunting these boards, begging EA to make one special freak server for you to play on.

So why did you sign up for a game with open PvP?

Because it was the only MMORPG on the market. Then others came out, and we started leaving. EA didn't like that.

Not to burst your many bubbles....but lets start with the two down tones of UO. Remember back when EA use to actually allow the public to see how popular their games were? Well trammel launch actually hurt UO's population. And I think They were still allowing for people to see when AOS launched, which was another downturn. Kinda ruins those thoughts...

Congratulations! You won! What did you win: Easy Mode, Itemization, Massive Inflation, Decline of Population, Shoe String Budget, No More Expansions...and eventually, No More UO.

But if UO never nerfed PK it's population and budget would have never declined ever ever, right? ROFL

If your ideas are so great and popular and everyone would love them, go play one of the many games based on them. Oh wait, there are almost none.

Go sit in Darkfall. There's a game with no population.

To address both quotes, you do know that most f2p games have no safe zones out side of towns right? Not only that, but most are more lucrative than any of the p2p games. The only game you are referring to is WoW. I mean seriously, after WoW what are the next largest mmo's? You mention Darkfall why? Because it is like UO? There are other p2p pvp games. Some of which are almost only pvp mmo's. I have played many games, the only one I can say I have not played is WoW and never will. So when I say that the majority of mmo's rely on a non-consensual pvp environment well, I mean just that.

Know at least a *little* about the market you are talking about before posting such crap, just because one game is popular and gets the most attention does not mean it has the best model, in fact it really only means it has the best marketing strategy. People like you are annoying, I have my arguments with Morgana as we do not see eye to eye on how to move forward with UO, but at least she only gives her opinion and does not claim things to be factual when they are not.

And...if UO did not "curb" pking then who knows what would have happened, I do know this though. Trammel, terrible Idea. I highly doubt the game would be dead today if they never made trammel rules, I will admit the game would not have lasted if everything stayed the same as it was in 1999, but then I am talking about game play...and not about player interaction.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

From my view from europa, the trammel fel split was not that harsh. It seperated though the players who accepted pvp and who didn't. What really brought it down was ea abandoning seers/counselors/and ea's decision then that ems or such things were unneeded and contact to the playerbase should be automated.

Players come and go that is true, EA must still have done something terribly wrong when people left the game to go for roleplay to wow...

I don't even understand how wow has so many players. EA did not entirely abandon the seers/counselors...We the people decided that. Not by a vote, but by certain actions. I don't remember what happened with the first round of EMs, although I assume the same issue as the seers?

I Think there have been many mistakes over the past 12 years (I am not including the first year and a half or so FYI) And very little progress. Trammel was not the best solution, but it was a workable one. AOS was a fairly horrible idea, but again...could be worked. It has been the lack of communication with the players, the dead end story lines and event arcs. The progressiveness of repeating the same mistakes over and over. And the constant killing of player interaction(not the pvp kind, just where one player might need another players help). I think the game continues to get way to easy, also I will chime in that insurance was a terrible idea as far as player interaction and in game economy goes (Although I mostly understand its use, but it should be a steeper price to pay perhaps...not sure how to handle that one right now but its in the past and already done) I am both faithful and of a strong opinion when it comes to UO and its past and future. UO has the most potential of any MMO, but I am only dreaming to think it will ever see any of that potential met.

 

[Coppelia]

Not to burst your many bubbles....but lets start with the two down tones of UO. Remember back when EA use to actually allow the public to see how popular their games were? Well trammel launch actually hurt UO's population. And I think They were still allowing for people to see when AOS launched, which was another downturn. Kinda ruins those thoughts...

Those are lies. I don't like AoS but I must admit that subs raised up to its top (250K) after the launch of AoS.
Basically, the raise of subs slowed when Renaissance was released, then continued as strong as before. Then it started to fall with the release of Third Dawn. At the release of AoS, it started to raise again. It didn't last long though, that's true. From then, UO has only lost customers, just slowerly when other expansions came out.

 

[Babble]

I don't even understand how wow has so many players. EA did not entirely abandon the seers/counselors...We the people decided that. Not by a vote, but by certain actions. I don't remember what happened with the first round of EMs, although I assume the same issue as the seers?

I Think there have been many mistakes over the past 12 years (I am not including the first year and a half or so FYI) And very little progress. Trammel was not the best solution, but it was a workable one. AOS was a fairly horrible idea, but again...could be worked. It has been the lack of communication with the players, the dead end story lines and event arcs. The progressiveness of repeating the same mistakes over and over. And the constant killing of player interaction(not the pvp kind, just where one player might need another players help). I think the game continues to get way to easy, also I will chime in that insurance was a terrible idea as far as player interaction and in game economy goes (Although I mostly understand its use, but it should be a steeper price to pay perhaps...not sure how to handle that one right now but its in the past and already done) I am both faithful and of a strong opinion when it comes to UO and its past and future. UO has the most potential of any MMO, but I am only dreaming to think it will ever see any of that potential met.

2004? 2005? When EA fired Talos as Game Master for europa and thenthere were years with no seers/ems. We decided nothing, EA with its fat arse sat frightened and decided to do nothing and save money as their programmers surely could provide cheaper content...

EA tried with UO to be everything and failed. Itemization needs to be thought through and needs a solid system not AOS. Levelbased games are best for that, they could have done that.

And you guys all underestimate wow, which stole from all the games and is probably at the moment the cosest thing to a thempark-sandbox if that is possible. It has fishing/cooking/rares (pets/mounts/items)/pvp/pve and all polished in such a degree that after wow gamers do not accept non quality releases (warhammer/APB/PotS/StarTreckOnline/COH...)

 

[phantus]

No AoS? No Trammel? No pompous carebears complaining about people playing the game the way it was actually designed??

Sounds awesome!

Pompous? You went with pompous? The irony is palpable...

Seperate shards as it should have been. No copy of the landmass. No dual rulesets. 1 set of code on a new engine.

Check please.

 

[Surgeries]

/flawed precept

If you are NOT going to "exercise in catapulting facts away when they're inconvenient"

then >the rule is BROKEN< right here (first among others)
Player Justice has been attempted again and again, never working.. always failing.
click clic whoosh !!!

See?
You just broght in a singular fact: Player justice has not worked
You say (you "see it as") a "Lack of" not rewarding the good guy ...

*ahem*
The "reward" that was lacking ... was that "the goodguys" couldn't "gain and control" ground
IE a "safe space" ... an "end to/of the criminals"

You gotta admit (should be able to) ... ^^that is a Pretty Good Reward for the good guys to strive for
and "with tram" essentially "won it" ... locked doors and secure chests, insurance to minimize PvE gear loss etc.

BUT: there is still "Player griefing" in tram ... Yes?
"with tram" essentially "won it" ... essentially ain't ... complete enough
got the gain, but haven't established "control".

So ...add in yet another layer? say the ability to "banish" a character/account TO fel?
Looks promising ... but no ... there's the rub

The banished players don't want to Stay there (in fel)
They want to "win" by forcing the "good players" to have to play with them
Die to them, be looted by them ... u know ... "win with the BETTER playstyle"
*ahem*

The interactions are quite well examined here: the DAEDALUS PROJECT: MMORPG Research, Cyberculture, MMORPG Psychology and here: Raph’s Website
and FURTHER played out HERE

*grin* ... By the way or By The By

> I Win !!!! <

These posts, although poo pooed by many, really do say it all.

They say it all.

Well stated Fayled, and I concur wholeheartedly. And thanks for the links!

 

[Trebr Drab]

/flawed precept

If you are NOT going to "exercise in catapulting facts away when they're inconvenient"

then >the rule is BROKEN< right here (first among others)
Player Justice has been attempted again and again, never working.. always failing.
click clic whoosh !!!

See?
You just broght in a singular fact: Player justice has not worked
You say (you "see it as") a "Lack of" not rewarding the good guy ...

*ahem*
The "reward" that was lacking ... was that "the goodguys" couldn't "gain and control" ground
IE a "safe space" ... an "end to/of the criminals"

You gotta admit (should be able to) ... ^^that is a Pretty Good Reward for the good guys to strive for
and "with tram" essentially "won it" ... locked doors and secure chests, insurance to minimize PvE gear loss etc.

BUT: there is still "Player griefing" in tram ... Yes?
"with tram" essentially "won it" ... essentially ain't ... complete enough
got the gain, but haven't established "control".

So ...add in yet another layer? say the ability to "banish" a character/account TO fel?
Looks promising ... but no ... there's the rub

The banished players don't want to Stay there (in fel)
They want to "win" by forcing the "good players" to have to play with them
Die to them, be looted by them ... u know ... "win with the BETTER playstyle"
*ahem*

The interactions are quite well examined here: the DAEDALUS PROJECT: MMORPG Research, Cyberculture, MMORPG Psychology and here: Raph’s Website
and FURTHER played out HERE

*grin* ... By the way or By The By

> I Win !!!! <

These posts, although poo pooed by many, really do say it all.

They say it all.

Well stated Fayled, and I concur wholeheartedly. And thanks for the links!

Show me one game, just one game, where player justice has been tried and where it actually hurts the PKers and they have no work arounds. Just one.
It has never been tried. And I've brought this up on Koster's site for years, and never get an answer.
Just more of "it's never worked before", or simply silence. Yet that's the exact point, it's never been done.

And don't give me examples of games where it's simply kill the PKers. They win more often than they lose because they prey on characters not designed to fight, and they use tactics to gank. That falls right into their game play. Show me one game where PKers actually had to pay a price for it, actually had a punishment that hurt.

 

[Coppelia]

Well if you could rewrite correctly the ramblings of FD so we don't have to waste too much time decyphering his message, lots of people would actually read it and tell if they approve or not.
Already said a countless time, if you highlight every word differently, it doesn't make sense anymore. This isn't an oral conversation. Maybe FD is very expressive in oral, likes big gestures and marking his words with a special intonation, but it doesn't work when written. It's just a pain to read and when like in this topic you have dozen of posts with hundreds of words each to read, there's a moment you have to skip FD's messages. It may be arty or something, but it's a communication fail.

 

[Babble]

Will still be interesting to see if such a shard takes off and in what direction it will go

 

[Trebr Drab]

Will still be interesting to see if such a shard takes off and in what direction it will go

We may never see it. It's probably more likely we'll see World of Wultima, FtP.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Seperate shards as it should have been. No copy of the landmass. No dual rulesets. 1 set of code on a new engine.

There was a time I would have disagreed...but given what I know now, I have come to realize that seperate shards (PvP/non-PvP) would have been the right way to go. I am not sure what you mean by "on a new engine" though...I am assuming you mean a new client?

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I think UO should have created a few different types of shards and allowed for housing on all of them, from one account but made it so that one house would be a grandfathered house and another house you would have to pay for with taxes and also refresh.

So, what types of shards? I would say a PvP shard, a PvM shard, a Classic shard, {which would of froze that time period}, a snapshot and of course a shard like we have now.

One of the things I can't seem to get over in this post, is when you take us back right before Trammel and then you add things instead of using what you already have in place. That doesn't make sense.

One of the things I think, would be a main part of your world, at that time, would be your factions. So, you would create a good, neutral, evil and then you would expect your good faction to also be your military in the fight against evil, so essentially your police.

So, just expanding on this system would of allowed for you to diminish your PK problem. All of your concepts and ideas could of been compiled by adding in a Virtue System. A Good and Evil. Again, the neutral guild would have the ability of the middle ground, being able to use part of the evil system and being able to use part of the good system.

So, the Virtue System could of given more tools. You would expect all of these systems to work together and essentially be one system but you would still need your jails and your Justice System for players who are not behaving in ways they are not supposed to or that the way the game was not intended to be used for, such as, profanity, creating obsene names.

So, rather than just banning people, you accept people for who they are but you have a system that is constantly reminding you that certain behavior is unacceptable.

So, I think if you could change time and go back right before Trammel, you probably would of focused on community and created more ways for people to work together, which I see in your post. Factions, Virtue System, but I myself would of went and also included an update sheet that would focus on constantly evolving, such as night and day, weather systems, ways to be able to destroy structures, the need to eat and drink.

So, there's also alot of things that I think your ideas lack. I mean yeah, it sounds great right now, but what will your system look like in 20 years when all the other games are able to introduce such technical things as a living world for example? If you can imagine for example, what that game will be like, then you're already saying to yourself, wow, that's just impossible but really it's not if you look at the basic structure of our real world and existence.

Now, if you wanted to go a million years into the future, then maybe you would have more trouble because that would depend on your concept of what we will become and how our real world will change.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

It has never been tried. And I've brought this up on Koster's site for years, and never get an answer.
Just more of "it's never worked before", or simply silence. Yet that's the exact point, it's never been done.

@Surgeries, Merry Christmas! May all of your audits produce massive overlooked profits!
@Phantus, Dude! consider your check comp'ed (*Galactic banking sys transfers of golden quatloo's to both @'s and AesSedai and the rest of the cc list*)


Poor Trebr ... it HAS been tried many many times before in many many different versions and flavors ...so many times, that it is practically a design axiom
Perhaps that is why you never got an answer at Raphs site ... where it has been (practically) elevated to a LAW (which are listed there)

As for showing you what "examples" you've missed(or ignored or misunderstood)
Dungeons and Dreamers covers the "trial" in Ultima Online quite nicely.
It first dawned on Garriot that he had lost control of the "vision" in the "tale of the thief". *shrugs*

btw ... "it has never worked before" implies that >it HAS been tried< ... see?
okay, now then, it also can be interpreted as NOT having been tried ... which, while it IS a statistical possibility
can be safely ignored as "being in existence"(there exists a state where no trials were launched)
There is ONE example(above) of its trial. ergo (none/empty set) is negated.

Another "flavor/example" *kicks archive machine*
VOTE TO KICK: Player/Poster ... see how that applies?

how about:
you Cannot >code< "Justice" ... which is a derivative of
you can't legislate morality ... ?? getting there ??

how about:
Red Queen Principle?
that should be easily graspable for you ...because it addresses your concern:
where player justice has been tried and where it actually hurts the PKers and they have no work arounds.

How about:
TANJ ... there ain't no justice(Heinlein)
Perhaps there(in his writings) you can find your vaunted "justice"
I believe you won't ... not for lack of effort ... but for lack of its existence ...
Goes to the Human experience that, as much coding and legislation "appears perfect"(just) ON PAPER

You throw one or more humans into the device/artifice ...
ALL bets are off ...
Because:
The universe ain't "fair" ...
which is a GOOD thang ...
IF the universe was fair/just ... THEN:
you >deserve< every bad thang that Has happened and Will happen to ya ... NO "appeals"

Burma Shave

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I think a Justice System would work. I don't know where you people get your information or if the people who are claiming this information actually lived through it.

I lived it, I know what we needed, I know what failed. I don't care what anyone else says. You want to create a game of revenge and hate and build off of this type of system and human emotion. It'll work but it will create what I would call, an angry player base and now you're just asking for lawsuits. You do not get people angry.

An example: The guild system failed. Look at your numbers, look at the history of the guild numbers. Now, you explain to me why a guild reaches 400 people and then drops down to 0.

Do you know what a guild split is? That's when a guild reaches say, 500 players and 250 decide to part ways.

The guilds did not have the capability to bring Justice for their people. If there would of been, then all of those guilds would still have their maximum numbers but instead what my real life experience has shown, is that a guild will grow to a certain point of power, where then the PKs will move in or the people who are so worried about how much money they are going to make, off of UO gold or power scrolls and begin to minipulate and monopolize.

So, now you end up with all of these basic problems because there was no way to say, you can't murder your own people, you can't steal from your own people. Instead the system encouraged it and demanded it. If you were going to be successful in making real world money, then you would have to destroy the gamer.

So, a Justice System would of prevented guilds to deterorate from the inside. The proof of this is in the number of guilds. Now, if you have to, you could do a survey and you can go back to all of these guildmasters and ask them their story. Why did your guild fall apart? Was it because of guild PKing? Was it because of people in your guild stealing from each other?

Was it because you decided to go to a more powerful guild that could offer you powerscrolls and armor? Was it your greed that made you leave and then once you did, did you then find out that you lost your friends and that you had lost your way and you were now alone?

So, maybe it didn't matter at this point if you left the game. I don't see any of this information being talked about and this is the fact. This is what really happened.

 

[Trebr Drab]

It has never been tried. And I've brought this up on Koster's site for years, and never get an answer.
Just more of "it's never worked before", or simply silence. Yet that's the exact point, it's never been done.

@Surgeries, Merry Christmas! May all of your audits produce massive overlooked profits!
@Phantus, Dude! consider your check comp'ed (*Galactic banking sys transfers of golden quatloo's to both @'s and AesSedai and the rest of the cc list*)


Poor Trebr ... it HAS been tried many many times before in many many different versions and flavors ...so many times, that it is practically a design axiom
Perhaps that is why you never got an answer at Raphs site ... where it has been (practically) elevated to a LAW (which are listed there)

As for showing you what "examples" you've missed(or ignored or misunderstood)
Dungeons and Dreamers covers the "trial" in Ultima Online quite nicely.
It first dawned on Garriot that he had lost control of the "vision" in the "tale of the thief". *shrugs*

btw ... "it has never worked before" implies that >it HAS been tried< ... see?
okay, now then, it also can be interpreted as NOT having been tried ... which, while it IS a statistical possibility
can be safely ignored as "being in existence"(there exists a state where no trials were launched)
There is ONE example(above) of its trial. ergo (none/empty set) is negated.

Another "flavor/example" *kicks archive machine*
VOTE TO KICK: Player/Poster ... see how that applies?

how about:
you Cannot >code< "Justice" ... which is a derivative of
you can't legislate morality ... ?? getting there ??

how about:
Red Queen Principle?
that should be easily graspable for you ...because it addresses your concern:
where player justice has been tried and where it actually hurts the PKers and they have no work arounds.

How about:
TANJ ... there ain't no justice(Heinlein)
Perhaps there(in his writings) you can find your vaunted "justice"
I believe you won't ... not for lack of effort ... but for lack of its existence ...
Goes to the Human experience that, as much coding and legislation "appears perfect"(just) ON PAPER

You throw one or more humans into the device/artifice ...
ALL bets are off ...
Because:
The universe ain't "fair" ...
which is a GOOD thang ...
IF the universe was fair/just ... THEN:
you >deserve< every bad thang that Has happened and Will happen to ya ... NO "appeals"

Burma Shave

So, show me a game where what I said has been done. And don't ignore the part where I said "without loopholes".

UO never tried this. Outside of the Blue Healer "bug", they had:

• Penalty at Resurrection instead of at Death
• Thieves who were allowed to kill you if you defended yourself, without a murder flag
• Guilds with PvP allowed instead of a Duel system
• Texas law for houses so you could kill anyone in your house, instead of a "ban" system.

Don't tell me UO "tried it". They didn't. They "tried" something else entirely.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Zion, I think you understand what I'm after here. No loopholes to be abused. Let PvP fall into sanctioned wars and faction systems.

I think it's interesting what UO has been doing with the Bane Chosen/ Ophidian faction thing. This is an example of how a free flowing faction system can be set up. Earn your way into it, but then add the consequences for doing so with PvP against enemy factions.

So Juo'Nar's bones can be set in a faction system like that, and then fought over for the sake of the good and evil...but only if the player chooses to do so, by their actions in-game.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

Ah! there is where you are going WRONG

From Koster's page
Game systems
No matter what you do, players will decode every formula, statictic, and algorithm in your world via experimentation.

Which is direct correlation(agreement/support) of The Red Queen article
"For an evolutionary system, continuing development is needed just in order to maintain its fitness relative to the systems it is co-evolving with"

and My Summation:

You throw one or more humans into the device/artifice ...
ALL bets are off ...
Because:
The universe ain't "fair" ...

There is NO justice system that can be built in which "loopholes" cannot be found (or introduced) ...
(NOT for lack of trying ... get it ... NOT because it ain't BEEN TRIED)

Try as anyone one may/might ... the Red Queen describes WHY every effort will eventually be "over come"

YOU listed other TRIES ... yes?
someone found loopholes ... yes?

It has never been tried. And I've brought this up on Koster's site for years, and never get an answer.
Just more of "it's never worked before", or simply silence. Yet that's the exact point, it's never been done.

UO never tried this. Outside of the Blue Healer "bug", they had:
* Penalty at Resurrection instead of at Death
* Thieves who were allowed to kill you if you defended yourself, without a murder flag
* Guilds with PvP allowed instead of a Duel system
* Texas law for houses so you could kill anyone in your house, instead of a "ban" system.
Don't tell me UO "tried it". They didn't. They "tried" something else entirely.

You are arguing in a circle ... and HAVE NOT met your own requirements ... IE:
a "system" that can actually Punish and Hurt and/or Prevent the criminal/griefers/PKs ...
Ya cannot "punish" them ... but that it (to them) the punishment is a REWARD ... what they sought ... their goal
Ya cannot "hurt" them ... they are made of sterner stuff than thee and/or do not hold your tender sensibilities to be of ANY "value"

BAN them and they will return ... unrepentant ... If i may ...

Prevent = Red Queen


Not to speak on Kosters behalf ... but ... I can see why you were NEVER engaged there
you cannot(see why)

/simple

 

[Babble]

From Wikipedia if you have a better reference
"The Red Queen's Hypothesis, also referred to as Red Queen, Red Queen's race or Red Queen Effect, is an evolutionary hypothesis. The term is taken from the Red Queen's race in Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking-Glass. The Red Queen said, "It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place." The Red Queen Principle can be stated thus:

For an evolutionary system, continuing development is needed just in order to maintain its fitness relative to the systems it is co-evolving with.[1]

The hypothesis is intended to explain two different phenomena: the advantage of sexual reproduction at the level of individuals, and the constant evolutionary arms race between competing species. In the first (microevolutionary) version, by making every individual an experiment when mixing mother's and father's genes, sexual reproduction may allow a species to evolve quickly just to hold onto the ecological niche that it already occupies in the ecosystem. In the second (macroevolutionary) version, the probability of extinction for groups (usually families) of organisms is hypothesized to be constant within the group and random among groups."

UO though is not an evolutionary system?
The paramaters of the game are constant .. it is especially non evolving and the only things changing are people and input

And sorry but game developers are bad scientists - get me some psychologysts with thesis about game theory partnered with mathematicians then i may believe you.

Developers who did not forsee rampant pking in an open pvp able game are not the best standard.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Developers who did not forsee rampant pking in an open pvp able game are not the best standard.

Exactly. And to quote what I just got done posting...

UO never tried this. Outside of the Blue Healer "bug", they had:

• Penalty at Resurrection instead of at Death
• Thieves who were allowed to kill you if you defended yourself, without a murder flag
• Guilds with PvP allowed instead of a Duel system
• Texas law for houses so you could kill anyone in your house, instead of a "ban" system.

And apply logic to this. I mean come on. This was doomed to failure from the start. And those Devs now claim that it can't ever work because they failed? Raph's a very nice person and all, and he's pretty smart generally speaking. But sheesh, we're supposed to just accept that based on this history?

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

UO though is not an evolutionary system?

it IS an evolving system ... yes

The paramaters of the game are constant .. it is especially non evolving and the only things changing are people and input

on which given day/epoch are the parameters "constant" ... the whole crux of the "argument/debate" is that it HAS evolved ... changed, mutated ... is different from the past on a system level

And sorry but game developers are bad scientists - get me some psychologysts with thesis about game theory partnered with mathematicians then i may believe you.

IF by that you mean "there are no Good Scientists" ... you are still wrong ... however ... find the Daedalus link ... bing! scientists, mathematicians and psychologists and ...
well ... >you will need to read and study and think< but there is your path to believing ... yw.

Developers who did not forsee rampant pking in an open pvp able game are not the best standard.

dude/tte ... UO is frequently described as an "experiment" by no less than the God Whose feet are clay ...

BooYaa! Burma Shaved !!!

 

[AtlanticVlad]

Who cares if there are loop holes we "Good Guys" have loop holes that we use to exploit the system two really as long as there are rewards u can exploit on the side of good that u cant get by being bad then *Shrugs* were on even footing... perhaps just creating a system that is designed with the idea it will be exploited and having diminishing returns is the better choice...

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Well now it's time to put the hammer down. A Justice System would work. It might not be fair, it might not always be right but saying that it could not work as a mechanic, is false.

For example: I know of one system that could be placed into the game that would work. A real Justice System where you're sanctioned by a player or maybe by a special type of player. So, at which time there is an incident, people are taken to jail.

Then they wait for a trial. Possibly an EM is the judge and he handles a couple of cases a week. Most crimes are just a fine and some time but if you've done something interesting, that doesn't fit the norm, like maybe you're a murderer of 50 or 100 people or more, and then when they catch you, you have to go to trial. Maybe your peers find you guilty. Maybe you'll have the right to have someone defend you. Maybe the city will have someone who protects the people.

After the case is decided, maybe everyone will move to the guilatine or maybe your character will go to the stocks infront of the bank in Brit.

So, what i'm trying to say, is, our Justice System might not be the best it is and maybe there are different things we can do instead of filling up our jails but for now, it's the best thing we have and like it or not it works the way it does for a reason because this step is necessary for the next step. That's what it means to evolve.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Hume makes the same point in the “Introduction” to the Treatise: “any hypothesis, that pretends to discover the ultimate original qualities of human nature, ought to be rejected as presumptuous and chimerical.” Once we see the “impossibility of explaining ultimate principles,” we can reject theories that pretend to provide them. And once we do, we can get clear about the proper way to study human nature: “The essence of the mind being equally unknown to us with that of external bodies, it must be equally impossible to form any notion of its powers and qualities otherwise than from careful and exact experiments, and the observation of particular effects, which result from different circumstances and situations.” So the Treatise also recommends the repudiation of metaphysics, and outlines a positive program whereby “the only solid foundation” for the science of human nature “must be laid on experience and observation” (T, xvi-xvii).

David Hume ....<>

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

Who cares if there are loop holes

That would be trebr ... "one who cares"
One who cares so much that he has blinded hisself to what justice actually is ... note HIS requirement/s
Punishment,
It's got to hurt, or it won't work.
Don't tell me UO "tried it". They didn't. They "tried" something else entirely.

And you bring:
we "Good Guys" have loop holes that we use to exploit the system two{sic} really as long as there are rewards u can exploit on the side of good that u cant get by being bad then *Shrugs* were{sic} on even footing.
Is that moral equivalence or ambivalence?
(by the by ... GoodGuys do-not-exploit ... dig?)

Well now it's time to put the hammer down. A Justice System would work. It might not be fair, it might not always be right but saying that it could not work as a mechanic, is false.

And yet you describe NO game mechanic that would positively work ...
now didja?
positively work WITHOUT loopholes ever being found or created
now didja?
>I< explained why it will be extremely difficult to get there
trebr holds that UO has never even TRIED to get there(his emphasis not mine)

and ... *snicker* by the by
One should cite the site where one plagiarizes a point from
David Hume (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
not to mention that the point > doesn't apply < in this particular context
> I < did NOT suppose, propose or even postulate that what I constructed was some sort of:
"ultimate original qualitie of human nature OR ultimate principle"
IF you were any where near as clever as you thought you were(quoting the supposed atheist Hume)
You >>would have<< seen that my observations borrowed from Koster+RedQueen+The universe ain't "fair"
were ONLY "observations" ... NOT some "hypothetical" NOR some ultimate truth

By the way ...

Well now it's time to put the hammer down.

you should never have picked it up ... nor mentioned it ... whuat?
you building sumtin? breaking?
put it down cause you knew there was nothing to "nail" in here?
wasn't yours to be seen with?
finished a project or just forgot WHY you had one?
possibly: all of the above and you needed both hands (this time) to type with? ...
*ahem*
might not be fair, it might not always be right
is not the sort of thing that trebr will consider as "Justice"

As above: he be looking for one without loopholes, with Punishment ... painful punishment that Hurts (supposedly harsh enough to PREVENT unjust behavior occurring or recurring)

*sigh*
Dance broccoli DANCE

 

[Skrag]

Then they wait for a trial. Possibly an EM is the judge and he handles a couple of cases a week.

Great, now you're paying live events staff to play judge in your little justice system in a game that nobody but a few kooks on this forum would want to play anyway. Zyon Rockler Presents: Crime & Punishment Online is a giant commercial flop where PVPers stay away because they want to pwn people and not go to jail for it, carebears stay away because they don't want to get pwned even if someone does go to jail for it, and operational costs are through the roof because you're paying employees to roleplay-moderate player disputes.

Time to put the hammer down, player justice can work... according to some chucklehead... but only if you want go out of business in six months!

This stuff you're talking about might work on a lightly-populated freeshard or text MUD, but it's like none of you people have any idea WTF is involved in operating a multimillion dollar commercial MMORPG with a five or six figure user count AT ALL.

I swear to god Stratics needs to make me a mod. Anyone who came on here and went "A decade ago they added Trammel, and now ten years later subscribers have declined! Clearly Trammel was bad!" would be perma-banned.

Hey guys, twenty years ago I told my grandfather that wearing blue shirts was bad for you. He kept wearing them though, and now twenty years later he's wrinkly and weak as hell. I was so right about blue shirts. DUR HUR HUR.

 

[HD2300]

I swear to god Stratics needs to make me a mod. Anyone who came on here and went "A decade ago they added Trammel, and now ten years later subscribers have declined! Clearly Trammel was bad!" would be perma-banned.

Hey guys, twenty years ago I told my grandfather that wearing blue shirts was bad for you. He kept wearing them though, and now twenty years later he's wrinkly and weak as hell. I was so right about blue shirts. DUR HUR HUR.

Yes please make Skrag a Mod so he can move all Classic shard threads into UO Spiels N Rants.

 

[Babble]

it IS an evolving system ... yes

Interesting and all the talk about a classic shard a snapshot in time?

on which given day/epoch are the parameters "constant" ... the whole crux of the "argument/debate" is that it HAS evolved ... changed, mutated ... is different from the past on a system level

I am talking about code, but if you can show me self evolving code then please.I never said people are a constant - I thought we are talking about a game system here?

IF by that you mean "there are no Good Scientists" ... you are still wrong ... however ... find the Daedalus link ... bing! scientists, mathematicians and psychologists and ...
well ... >you will need to read and study and think< but there is your path to believing ... yw

Maybe I was a bit too nice to the deveolpers. Most who progrsam in gaming do not have and doctoral degrees in psychology nor gaming theory and their opinions about gaming are ... guesses at best .. delusions as we can see with so many failed games rather the standard ... Garriot managed to give a name to his game which failed under a year.

Koster's last big thing was swg and then? .....

If you want to hype programmers hype the wow dev team and company

 

[Babble]

Great, now you're paying live events staff to play judge in your little justice system in a game that nobody but a few kooks on this forum would want to play anyway. Zyon Rockler Presents: Crime & Punishment Online is a giant commercial flop where PVPers stay away because they want to pwn people and not go to jail for it, carebears stay away because they don't want to get pwned even if someone does go to jail for it, and operational costs are through the roof because you're paying employees to roleplay-moderate player disputes.

Time to put the hammer down, player justice can work... according to some chucklehead... but only if you want go out of business in six months!

This stuff you're talking about might work on a lightly-populated freeshard or text MUD, but it's like none of you people have any idea WTF is involved in operating a multimillion dollar commercial MMORPG with a five or six figure user count AT ALL.

I swear to god Stratics needs to make me a mod. Anyone who came on here and went "A decade ago they added Trammel, and now ten years later subscribers have declined! Clearly Trammel was bad!" would be perma-banned.

Hey guys, twenty years ago I told my grandfather that wearing blue shirts was bad for you. He kept wearing them though, and now twenty years later he's wrinkly and weak as hell. I was so right about blue shirts. DUR HUR HUR.

In the forseeable future there will be no big hit with UO's gameplay, because it is too much effort and the more freedom you give people the more they exploit it. Is a reason why governments try to watch closely over us. You just lose control else.

That does not mean it cannot work in closer systems else all families would be doomed ... well most are anyway

 

[Skrag]

Yes please make Skrag a Mod so he can move all Classic shard threads into UO Spiels N Rants.

All of you will learn a new definition of pain under the iron-fisted boot of Moderator Skrag. I won't care if you flame each other to crispy little bits, but I will tear you into little pieces for being stupid.

If I see you posting that player-to-player infractions decrease inflation by acting as a gold sink? Bam, infraction. If I see you posting that player-to-player transactions increase inflation by acting as a gold faucet? Bam, infraction. I'd be awesome.

Really this place needs me. It's like a special ed class right now, where nobody knows anything but the teacher is super nice about it.

 

[Coppelia]

 

[kelmo]

Skrag. Are you saying you would like to see some tougher moderation?

 

[Tazar]

*evil grin*

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I swear to god Stratics needs to make me a mod. Anyone who came on here and went "A decade ago they added Trammel, and now ten years later subscribers have declined! Clearly Trammel was bad!" would be perma-banned.

If Stratics made me a mod, I'd perma ban people that call other people kooks and seek to stiffle the free speech of others...

...you know, trolls.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

The point was, if it works in the real world, it should work in a virtual world. It might be the best Justice System we know of. Therefore, it might be impossible to create one that is better. It was an example of a Justice System that works because it can sustain its' people. So, saying that it will fail because EA might have to use a real human to do a real type job and have to pay them, is not really telling me how it will fail.

Also, being that even though it has loop holes, you still feel good knowing that the people are making choices and deciding guilt. So, that strength alone, is Justice.

As far as not placing in the link, there should be a box on your browser, you can use to search with. Just type his name in that box, this way you can read all of the information possible, rather than just reading a small piece.

Just because you do not comprehend what I was saying, doesn't mean that it did not fit my point and to me it still does, so I will not retract it.

I also like to add another example: An experiment, create a blue guild, tell anyone who is coming into the guild they must be a blue character and stay blue, then give them God mode and anyone who wishes to join, now my logic would dictate that it will not take long before the population has completely moved into this guild, causing everyone in the game to become blue.

Now, take away the God mode from the blue and create a red guild. Now, tell anyone coming into this guild they must remain red and give them God mode. So, now any boss, any champ spawn, any player can be easily beaten, forcing everyone into this guild. So, now the game becomes completely red characters.

Without a Justice System, it would not matter if you were a murderer or not. I don't think that works. I don't think people want to live in a neighborhood where 9 out of 10 people are murderers. I don't think people want to be in a neighborhood that has 1 murderer in it. It's just another example of a meaningless game that changes simply because of power.

 

[canary]

Interesting!

 

[Surgeries]

@ Fayled Dhreams: Never Change! Thanks for the persistence, terrific, and most importantly, Constant, Logic!

You know I love it! This was the best gift yet this year!

Keep the Veggies in a Constant Hustle, I say!!



Merry Christmas and a Wonderful New Year!

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

The point was, if it works in the real world, it should work in a virtual world. It might be the best Justice System we know of. Therefore, it might be impossible to create one that is better. It was an example of a Justice System that works because it can sustain its' people. So, saying that it will fail because EA might have to use a real human to do a real type job and have to pay them, is not really telling me how it will fail.

Please! "IF it works real !=! it should work virtual" comon! catch up with the thread ... which is about how >it has not "worked"< in the virtual*tsk!*
By the by, re: trebr's "never tried" ... five letters: TOS GM ... Huzzah!

Also, being that even though it has loop holes, you still feel good knowing that the people are making choices and deciding guilt. So, that strength alone, is Justice.

Please! DO NOT presume to tell me how >I< feel, you may accept it and call that flawed little bit "justice" ... you are just "settling" and advising others to abandon the "too hard" quest ... like you ...

As far as not placing in the link, there should be a box on your browser, you can use to search with. Just type his name in that box, this way you can read all of the information possible, rather than just reading a small piece.
Just because you do not comprehend what I was saying, doesn't mean that it did not fit my point and to me it still does, so I will not retract it.

Please! Again: do not presume that I didn't read either the little snippet, nor lack any "web search skills", nor that I did not understand it... pffft!
I DID read it, and recognized the author >before< getting to the "credit" ...
I then used a search engine and found the exact snippet you plagiarized(failed to cite the site copied)
And (finally *whew*) understood it well enough to refute it ... precisely because it did not apply (ultimate original qualitie of human nature OR ultimate principle)
That you could mount no better rebuttal than above (to me it still does, so I will not retract it) indicates that you are the one without understanding ...
Observe:
You brought in a shiny domino, stood it up and said "Aha"!
I knocked it over for a dirtnap,
You said "Nuhuh! It Still Stands !!!"
*grin*

I also like to add another example: An experiment, create a blue guild, tell anyone who is coming into the guild they must be a blue character and stay blue, then give them God mode and anyone who wishes to join, now my logic would dictate that it will not take long before the population has completely moved into this guild, causing everyone in the game to become blue.

and the justice is WHERE?

Now, take away the God mode from the blue and create a red guild. Now, tell anyone coming into this guild they must remain red and give them God mode. So, now any boss, any champ spawn, any player can be easily beaten, forcing everyone into this guild. So, now the game becomes completely red characters.

Hello! >Justice< ???

Without a Justice System, it would not matter if you were a murderer or not. I don't think that works. I don't think people want to live in a neighborhood where 9 out of 10 people are murderers. I don't think people want to be in a neighborhood that has 1 murderer in it. It's just another example of a meaningless game that changes simply because of power.

???Without a Justice System???
DAYUM !!!
o'well
It seems, perhaps only to me ... you got something right there in the end: I don't think ...

Here's your sign ... wear it as a warning for others
Now THAT is "Justice" ... tada !!

 

[Zyon Rockler]

If you understood what I was saying, then why don't you enlighten us in your own words rather than that of a brain of a parrot?

And I will tell you if you are right or wrong, that is if you are able to accept truth.

And again, you have failed to answer the question, again I implure you, in your own words, if you are capable, explain to us why a Justice System does not work in reality the same as it would in a virtual world because this statement in itself, contradicts the understanding of existence that were proposed.

I do not understand why you would oppose someone, claiming that you know the absolute. To do this, only puts yourself in a position to be wrong. You could of accepted that a Justice System might work but you did not. So, then you must explain to us.

Also, your claim that he did not believe in God, is false. He never told anyone his feelings, probably because he wanted to respect his peers, giving them the benefit of the doubt so that his mind could be clear on the human aspect but what intelligent man, I ask you, would say something is impossible just because he does not see it or he is not able to touch it?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

You are wasting your breath Zyon. This thread will likely get closed due to these trolls and a general dislike of anything that deviates from the current game by certain mods.

 

[kelmo]

Certain mods do what they do. Threads get locked when they become unmanagable. If you folks can not behave, do not blame us. If a thread gets locked. Get over it. The world does not end over a Stratics thread.

Merry Christmas.