Skrag's poll!

[Trebr Drab]

In another thread, Skrag said:

"All this bla bla dynamic player justice bla bla crap? That isn't something we wished we could do but couldn't. It was just... a bug, as far as we were concerned. We didn't want to defeat the PKs, we just wanted to forget they existed and not have to deal with them."​

So, do you agree or do you want a game where there's a workable player justice system that really punishes "crime" to keep it down, yet allows it for RP and game purposes?

 

[Skrag]

Yeah, let's poll a bunch of hardcore forum ******* who probably don't even play UO and just come here to scream for a "classic" shard and pancake about Trammel ten years after the fact.

They can sit here and go "No bro, we love player justice! Classic shard! Siege!" and you can try to forget the fact 4 out of every 5 UO players crammed themselves into Trammel the moment it opened and never ever came back.

You know what I love best though? I love it when some new MMO launches claiming it's bringing back the feel of old-school UO. Shadowbane, Darkfall, games like that. A bunch of frothing PK types get all excited, then the game launches, crashes, and burns. Almost like nobody cares.

 

[SixUnder]

Yeah, let's poll a bunch of hardcore forum ******* who probably don't even play UO and just come here to scream for a "classic" shard and pancake about Trammel ten years after the fact.

They can sit here and go "No bro, we love player justice! Classic shard! Siege!" and you can try to forget the fact 4 out of every 5 UO players crammed themselves into Trammel the moment it opened and never ever came back.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Yeah, let's poll a bunch of hardcore forum ******* who probably don't even play UO and just come here to scream for a "classic" shard and pancake about Trammel ten years after the fact.

They can sit here and go "No bro, we love player justice! Classic shard! Siege!" and you can try to forget the fact 4 out of every 5 UO players crammed themselves into Trammel the moment it opened and never ever came back.

You know what I love best though? I love it when some new MMO launches claiming it's bringing back the feel of old-school UO. Shadowbane, Darkfall, games like that. A bunch of frothing PK types get all excited, then the game launches, crashes, and burns. Almost like nobody cares.

Well, I've always said the same thing about those games and old UO. I'm talking about a "working justice system". One that really punishes "crime". My heart is with the carebears on this, but I also want crime in the game so that there's things happening in a more RP fashion, as the world turns. I want the risk to be on the criminals, not the victims.

 

[Skrag]

Developers crapping on the killers just enough to keep them from crapping on the carebears quite so hard just ensures that everyone ends up covered in crap.

Most of your carebears are going to leave for a game with no PK. Most of your killers are going to leave for a game that doesn't punish them for doing what they enjoy.

You know what happened that really changed UO? There got to be more than one MMO in the world, and people got tired of UO telling them how they were supposed to play. "OH MAN THAT GUY JUST GANKED YOU AND TOOK ALL YOUR ARMOR, ISN'T THIS A COOL DYNAMIC WORLD?" No sir, no it is not. I think I'll go play Everquest.

The game that UO was in it's first few years will never exist again. Ever. That game was doomed the moment other games came out and a choice was created. Even if you put all the same rules in place, it wouldn't be the same game. You'll never have carebears and roleplayers and PKs and anti-PKs and crafters and everyone all crammed together like that ever again. There are too many games out and too many choices.

You know what happens if Trammel never comes out? All the Trammies end up in Asheron's Call or Everquest and UO is just Felucca. An empty shell containing a few bored old PKs with nothing to do.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Developers crapping on the killers just enough to keep them from crapping on the carebears quite so hard just ensures that everyone ends up covered in crap.

Most of your carebears are going to leave for a game with no PK. Most of your killers are going to leave for a game that doesn't punish them for doing what they enjoy.

You know what happened that really changed UO? There got to be more than one MMO in the world, and people got tired of UO telling them how they were supposed to play. "OH MAN THAT GUY JUST GANKED YOU AND TOOK ALL YOUR ARMOR, ISN'T THIS A COOL DYNAMIC WORLD?" No sir, no it is not. I think I'll go play Everquest.

I'm not talking about justice that's "just enough". I'm talking about justice that hurts, because that's the only way it works.
Let the extreme carebears and the extreme PKer griefers both leave. Leave a game for the vast majority who want the middle ground and the exciting world that it can bring.

 

[Chardonnay]

This poll won't even have 75 people vote on it hardly a majority of any kind of the population of UO....

Poll = Null and Void

Especially private ones where ppl can make numerous accounts on stratics and vote for same thing about 100 times?

 

[Skrag]

I'm not talking about justice that's "just enough". I'm talking about justice that hurts, because that's the only way it works.

Games are supposed to be fun.

Let the extreme carebears and the extreme PKer griefers both leave. Leave a game for the vast majority who want the middle ground and the exciting world that it can bring.

What on earth makes you think the "vast majority" wants all this player justice crap? It doesn't exist in UO, it doesn't exist anywhere else, and everyone quit even talking about it as a concept YEARS ago. Except for a few crackpot oldschoolers on UO forums.

It's dead and buried. The closest thing you'll find is Eve Online, and even that consists of a large safe chunk of empire space where 80% of everyone sits being carebears.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

I agree that this is useless.

Justice was killing the player and looting all their stuff and them being in stat loss.

Now death is nothing.

There is no real reason to be in Fel. The game is screwed up.

You dont need much of anything but if you want a justice system give away justice armour for killing red players.


Now player will hunt reds. OR LIKE me make a red a just kill it over and over. See there is no justice only work arounds to get stuff.

 

[Babble]

Yeah, let's poll a bunch of hardcore forum ******* who probably don't even play UO and just come here to scream for a "classic" shard and pancake about Trammel ten years after the fact.

They can sit here and go "No bro, we love player justice! Classic shard! Siege!" and you can try to forget the fact 4 out of every 5 UO players crammed themselves into Trammel the moment it opened and never ever came back.

You know what I love best though? I love it when some new MMO launches claiming it's bringing back the feel of old-school UO. Shadowbane, Darkfall, games like that. A bunch of frothing PK types get all excited, then the game launches, crashes, and burns. Almost like nobody cares.

EVE?

 

[Babble]

I agree that this is useless.

Justice was killing the player and looting all their stuff and them being in stat loss.

Now death is nothing.

There is no real reason to be in Fel. The game is screwed up.

You dont need much of anything but if you want a justice system give away justice armour for killing red players.


Now player will hunt reds. OR LIKE me make a red a just kill it over and over. See there is no justice only work arounds to get stuff.

I still would say a red in statloss is just perma dead
Maybe a bit harsh, but then it is a game

 

[Skrag]

Eve has a giant safe zone in the middle where the majority of the population sits around being carebears.

 

[Clx-]

You know what I love best though? I love it when some new MMO launches claiming it's bringing back the feel of old-school UO. Shadowbane, Darkfall, games like that. A bunch of frothing PK types get all excited, then the game launches, crashes, and burns. Almost like nobody cares.

Have you not thought this through? People get excited because they want old UO, the new games can't match it in all or many ways, so they leave. So what's your point?

 

[Chardonnay]

You know what I love best though? I love it when some new MMO launches claiming it's bringing back the feel of old-school UO. Shadowbane, Darkfall, games like that. A bunch of frothing PK types get all excited, then the game launches, crashes, and burns. Almost like nobody cares.

Have you not thought this through? People get excited because they want old UO, the new games can't match it in all or many ways, so they leave. So what's your point?

He was trying to be funny and try to compare those games to UO and failed miserably...

 

[Trebr Drab]

Eve has a giant safe zone in the middle where the majority of the population sits around being carebears.

The way I understand it, and this is important to my point also, is that in this "safe zone" you can still attack someone. But it's pointless because you pretty much get insta killed by "the guards". So that zone, if I have that right, is alot like UO's cities in Fel or pre-Trammel. Only big enough to play without leaving.

But what EvE also has is a huge universe where players can leave the safe zone and hope to not be noticed by those that would kill them.
-So they have a safe zone that's big enough to play in.
-They have an unsafe zone that's huge, and big enough to hope to avoid encounters, and where there's more valuable resources to gather.

But from what I understand, even the "carebears" do leave that safe zone for the better resources. I don't think losing a ship feels the same to a player as getting an Avatar PKed. I just think there's a big difference there in how players react. And there's been studies on how gamers feel about their Avatars, so maybe there's something to that.

 

[WildWobble]

I say give us a shard with Hardcore rules! You die your dead end of story. No justice system required! someone murders someone and the victims friends all gank the killer... Hmmm why not? you die you get looted you die you loose everything. I like that play style. Only the strong or the groups of people working together will survive.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

The way I understand it, and this is important to my point also, is that in this "safe zone" you can still attack someone. But it's pointless because you pretty much get insta killed by "the guards". So that zone, if I have that right, is alot like UO's cities in Fel or pre-Trammel. Only big enough to play without leaving.

But what EvE also has is a huge universe where players can leave the safe zone and hope to not be noticed by those that would kill them.
-So they have a safe zone that's big enough to play in.
-They have an unsafe zone that's huge, and big enough to hope to avoid encounters, and where there's more valuable resources to gather.

But from what I understand, even the "carebears" do leave that safe zone for the better resources. I don't think losing a ship feels the same to a player as getting an Avatar PKed. I just think there's a big difference there in how players react. And there's been studies on how gamers feel about their Avatars, so maybe there's something to that.

It's primarily because when people signed up to play EvE, they already knew what open PvP meant. When you look at almost any of the other MMOs out there right now, there are PvP instances and PvP areas, or straight up PvP servers...and there are safe areas where non-con PvP is not allowed. The players that venture into PvP areas do so because they are looking for challenge, or at least a reward that is worth the risk. But they don't consider the risk to be that high because they fully understand what they are getting into. So when they do venture into a PvP area, and then die, they don't complain about it because they knew the risk and decided to take it in order to get the reward. UO was designed in much the same way...but it was the playerbase that that was different. UO players have to be the whiniest bunch of crybabies of any MMO out there. Perhaps it is because the experience was new, perhaps it is because people feel entitled because they have been playing so long...but regardless, UO players whine and complain more than any other playerbase that I know of. Any change is met with instant complaints, any lack of change...also met with instant complaints. And in the old days, it was even worse! People that got PK'ed in UO acted like someone had killed their pet! They still do! Not too long back, the devs ran an event where players had to go to Fel to complete a quest...to gain a reward. Those that did bother to accept the risk went there, died, and then immediately complained and whined about it...even though they knew exactly what the risk was. I don't know what it is, but they should change the name of the game from Ultima Online to Entitlement Online. Everyone in this game feels that they are entitled to have everything handed to them, from skill caps to artifacts to easy game play to housing. Just look at how many threads there have been over the years complaining about that burning Luna house on Atlantic!

So no, I don't think games like EvE have it wrong, or that there is something special about the way they created their game...I just think they have a playerbase that is more willing to accept a little risk and not cry and whine as soon as something doesn't go their way.

 

[Skrag]

Nobody wants to play a game based on your stupid ideas about open PVP and player justice, or there would be actual games based on them.

Besides Eve (with 80% of everyone in the safe zone) and Darkall (with nobody in any zone) I mean.

Seriously, where are all these great player justice games everyone loves and which validate your BS? All I see is some dinosaur sniffing around playing freeshards because nobody makes or cares about their sort of game anymore.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Nobody wants to play a game based on your stupid ideas about open PVP and player justice, or there would be actual games based on them.

Besides Eve (with 80% of everyone in the safe zone) and Darkall (with nobody in any zone) I mean.

Seriously, where are all these great player justice games everyone loves and which validate your BS? All I see is some dinosaur sniffing around playing freeshards because nobody makes or cares about their sort of game anymore.

You are the type of person that would complain about getting killed on a Medal of Honor server, aren't you?

Don't worry...no big bad PKs are coming to take your trinkets and neon items away from you. You are safe in your Easy Mode world, with all of your ninja weapons and ridable dogs and sunglasses and such.

But you seem awfully grumpy about it...

 

[Arcus]

It's dead and buried. The closest thing you'll find is Eve Online, and even that consists of a large safe chunk of empire space where 80% of everyone sits being carebears.

Errr...uhh...dont look at my location.

 

[Skrag]

Everyone loves the exciting and dynamic fun of player justice in an open PVP environment! That's why it forms the basis of every modern MMO! EA are fools not to add it back to UO!

I mean can you imagine if it WEREN'T the best thing in gaming? You'd probably just see a few sad cranks sitting on freeshards of a 13 year old game, crying about how nothing is as good as it used to be, while the MMO universe moved on and ignored them. Heh.

Good thing that didn't happen.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Skrag, the sense I get is that, while there are those who want to go back to the old grieger days, most want a justice system that really works and really punishes "crime" in games without loopholes and outs.

Believe me, most gamers have no more love for that wild, wild west style than you do. In truth, the Wild West was won and tamed because there was justice. We need teeth to "justice" in these games, it's never been tried fully. And if not fully, then it doesn't work, which has long been my point. Otherwise we end up with WoW, and most everyone is tired of the boredom with that. Even though there were a great many new MMO gamers, who never played anything but a Single Player Game, who thought that WoW was great for the first few years. They know better now. They've seen the boring outcome, and they've asked "is there nothing more?"

It's time to start building MMORPGs with the massive and the Social Systems to allow for actual social interaction beyond texting. To build, to protect, to compete, to have fun in multiple ways.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

I'm all for a new, real justice system. One that allows crime, but where players have to deal with the consequences, depending on their criminal record. A system like this.

 

[Trebr Drab]

I'm all for a new, real justice system. One that allows crime, but where players have to deal with the consequences, depending on their criminal record. A system like this.

Hawkeye, I hate to say this to you too, but once again you are trying to game it. And PKers will abuse it and find the loopholes.

For starters, a PKer kills and for 15 minutes a Detective can go and get "evidence" and a warrant? Why do you think that PKers and their friends won't just hang around to kill the Detective before he gets it? It's falling right into their game play, they'd love this.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Hawkeye, I hate to say this to you too, but once again you are trying to game it. And PKers will abuse it and find the loopholes.

For starters, a PKer kills and for 15 minutes a Detective can go and get "evidence" and a warrant? Why do you think that PKers and their friends won't just hang around to kill the Detective before he gets it? It's falling right into their game play, they'd love this.

I'm not saying the system is totally balance, I am sure it would need tweaking. It is the principle that counts.

 

[HD2300]

There is already a great justice system functioning in Trammel.

If someone is a tool, you can remove them from the Guild and put them on your ignore list. That is justice.

In fact you can simulate a old school shard now. Nothing is stopping a group of people from agreeing to join a guild/alliance where you can only wear NPC sold items, and anyone can kill anyone else in the guild/alliance.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Hawkeye, I hate to say this to you too, but once again you are trying to game it. And PKers will abuse it and find the loopholes.

For starters, a PKer kills and for 15 minutes a Detective can go and get "evidence" and a warrant? Why do you think that PKers and their friends won't just hang around to kill the Detective before he gets it? It's falling right into their game play, they'd love this.

I'm not saying the system is totally balance, I am sure it would need tweaking. It is the principle that counts.

It would be a fun system if it were restricted to factions in some way. Two things...
a) You don't want PKing to be fun. That causes players to PK. That's what we want to get away from.
b) Using that in a Faction system would be cool, but it requires a way to do it while not at war, yet protect players from the possible abuses of PKers.

Do you remember my idea a while back about player communities/guilds having a militia that players can join or not? See, your idea would be great for that, so that only those players in the militia would fall into this. But players not in it would be "innocent civilians" and any killing of them would place the PKer in the stat loss at death. This protects those who don't want the fighting, and gives those who do a playable feature that's pretty darn cool. I think anyways, haven't thought it all the way through, especially since that idea of mine had more to it than just that.

 

[Lady Storm]

Skrag is right in one sense, the minute Trammel opened I saw many players who were living around me pack up and move to Tram so fast heads swam. Fel emptyed out not quickly... though. it took a few months to see the player base at Ocelo Bank disapear totaly. A full year later you could walk around and all you saw/didnt see were the thiefs who jumped on you like a rat from a sinking ship!!

The only thing we wanted was more room for houses, Fel was crouded... you have to admit land was at limits(population was highest at this time). A Break form Thiefs at city banks, and perhaps a system to deal with reds and pks. We got: Trammel

Ok we can live with it....... but then some idiot in the dev team at the time (old dev) to rip off the leaves and add in tomestones that make the place undesireable. (yes there is a way to go in gump and change the trees back for your eyes only)

I would like to see a bounty back on pk's and reds. Ok for some head taking is a bit rough for some softies, it was how we did it for years but ok I can see the point. Then apon killing a red you get a ticket with the name, and date of death and who did it. You turn it in to the local mayor/city head and collect a nice check. Treb is right we want real justice.

 

[Skrag]

Skrag, the sense I get is that, while there are those who want to go back to the old grieger days, most want a justice system that really works and really punishes "crime" in games without loopholes and outs.

Largely impossible in a game with potentially thousands of players per server, especially one that expects any sort of mass-market success. You might get working player justice in a small text MUD or something, but there's a reason large commercial MMO developers quit talking about it years ago.

Believe me, most gamers have no more love for that wild, wild west style than you do. In truth, the Wild West was won and tamed because there was justice. We need teeth to "justice" in these games, it's never been tried fully. And if not fully, then it doesn't work, which has long been my point.

Man the public wants to kill monsters with their buddies. Maybe craft some widgets or decorate their house if their game of choice has those things. Who do you think is out there yearning to play Crime & Punishment Online, a game that revolves completely around PKs and thinking of ways to make them not PK so much?

A handful of cranks still hanging around Ultima Online Stratics going into 2011, and that's about it.

Because that's all you're describing, Crime & Punishment Online. The carebears are gone man, and they're not coming back just so they can have the excitement of getting shanked, so some other guy can play a detective, and some other guy can get on a paladin and do this other thing, and blah blah blah. They just wanted to kill a monster.

Otherwise we end up with WoW, and most everyone is tired of the boredom with that. Even though there were a great many new MMO gamers, who never played anything but a Single Player Game, who thought that WoW was great for the first few years. They know better now. They've seen the boring outcome, and they've asked "is there nothing more?"

WoW continues to stand astride the MMORPG industry like a colossus. Entire generations of would-be competitors have perished beneath it's feet. It rakes in billions of dollars and at last check was still growing. Any argument that hinges on "You don't want it to be like WoW do you?" is screaming into the void as far as developers are concerned.

It's time to start building MMORPGs with the massive and the Social Systems to allow for actual social interaction beyond texting. To build, to protect, to compete, to have fun in multiple ways.

Yeah, yeah.

 

[Clair The Mystic]

The early days of UO were based on the idea that players wanted to play in a real world with realistic consequences, risks, and rewards. The devlopers were wrong. Most players want to escape. They want games where, if a player invests enough time, that player will be successful.

Early UO was magic. It felt real. It was alive. I miss the feeling I had the first time I talked to another player. I miss forming the first guild I was in, which constisted of people I ment working up skills in the Moonglow Graveyard. I am a litte sad that I will never feel that way again. I don't miss seeing my now ex wife being murdered just north of the Glow Graveyard and watching that idiot stand over her character's body as he described in graphic detail what he was doing to the body. It happened more than once.

Pre Trammel UO was a bright, shiney star that could not last. That world requried victims. Without what might be called Trammies or Carebears, UO is a different game. It is a tank full of hungry sharks. I think that a world with only PvPers would devour itself.

I don't know if a classic shard would be successful. I am not aginst giving it a try. The problem is that those that are expecting anything close to 1998 are going to be very disappointed. Even if the loaded a backup from exactly twelve years ago today and said come and get it Classic Shard people, the UO World would be a different place because the players have changed.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

WoW continues to stand astride the MMORPG industry like a colossus. Entire generations of would-be competitors have perished beneath it's feet. It rakes in billions of dollars and at last check was still growing. Any argument that hinges on "You don't want it to be like WoW do you?" is screaming into the void as far as developers are concerned.

I have to ask:

If you think so highly of WoW...why aren't you playing it instead? I played it for a while, and it would be right up your alley. No risk, super easy, just killing monsters over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over. You die, it doesn't matter...heck, it matters even less than in UO (and I thought that short of getting some sort of reward that it couldn't matter any less than in UO these days).

It seems to me that you are all on and on about some WoW...so what is stopping you from making the transition? Hop on over to WoW...people like you obviously love it.

 

[HD2300]

Pre Trammel UO... could not last. That world requried victims. Without what might be called Trammies or Carebears, UO is a different game. It is a tank full of hungry sharks. I think that a world with only PvPers would devour itself.

...The problem is that those that are expecting anything close to 1998 are going to be very disappointed. Even if the loaded a backup from exactly twelve years ago today and said come and get it Classic Shard people, the UO World would be a different place because the players have changed.

c.f. Darkfall. Epic Fail.
c.f. Mortal Online. Epic Fail.

 

[ress me plz]

No, I'd rather have a Justice System

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I don't think I can vote on this because both systems could be used, a justice system and a player system and also an automatic system.

I think i'll have to study or think about this more but my opinion has always been to keep the original guard zones around cities but to expand on them and to have much greater detail in the way of resources and reasons to leave the safe zones.

The system where you cut the head off of a person, was a good system because players could target crime and had an incentive. This system could be reworked so that it could not be abused by removing any repeating.

So, some type of code would be written that would bank 25 names then when a new name came into the bank it would be accepted as one and push the first name out of the bank. So, you could basically set this as a profession, Bounty Hunter because the person doing this would have to work hard to be able to gain one reward.

So, rather than setting a set number on the PK, make it so the bounty hunter has to collect so many bounties. So, if it would turn out that the bounty hunter had 25 friends who were red, they could each have a bank of 25 names also. So, each PK would need to be killed by 25 different people and each bounty hunter would have to bounty 25 different pks to have 1 bounty count. It's alittle mind boggeling, actually but i'm sure that a definite balance could be attained.

Another example might be to reward the bounty hunter with an item that they can only use.

The Justice System is very important because it will dictate how a player should think and it will set their demeanor. It's kind of like saying to the player, These are the rules we've set. If you abuse them, we have these penalties but it also says, Take it a step further and your account may be banned.

So, The Justice System not only protects people within a guard zone, it also shows, Look, the guard is stopping someone from murdering someone. The guard is stopping someone from stealing. The guard does not like the words that you are using.

This type of system also allows for freedom outside of the guard zone but you would still need an automatic system that also has rules, that say, If you kill someone, no matter where it is, it goes on your record and if you kill many people you get marked as a murderer and lose privileges.

So, all 3 of these systems could be designed to work in harmony. A type of militia or army or maybe even sign up and be a guard or seperate from that, bounty hunter system.

A Justice System could also involve very important things, such as a trial. That would be a great event. Jail time, fines, the guilatine, the stocks, dunking. Some things could be automatically set. You know what happens if you kill someone and get caught. You know what happens if you kill a few people and steal from them but maybe there will be situations where people are decided to be a griefer and they must appear in court, infront of their peers.

If they do not appear, then their account will be banned. I know, i'm just rambling but the idea is, is that these systems could work and they could work very well.

 

[Coppelia]

Skrag is right, there's no tool to give to player to defend themselves against PKs. Who would use them? PvMers? Asking a PvMer to defend herself against a PvPers makes as much sense as asking a PvPer to go solo a raid boss or something along the line. It's not their field, it's not what they like and they'll do it wrong. So why would they care?

The regulation of PKs in a full PvP environement must be done by a developer designed system. If it works in Lineage II, that's not because there's Paladins bringing player justice to save the day of players who just want to XP, that's because PKs risk losing hardly acquired stuff (not stolen from newbies). And PvPers have actual PvP goals to be occupied with, so they fight other PvPers, they don't grief.

Those who want the old days of UO with Felucca only don't want to PvP, they want to PK, ie kill defenseless victims so they don't risk retaliation. That's why Darkfall, which is a copy of old UO, consisted right from the first day of a population of ******** botters and naked PKs waiting for victims to dry loot, exploiting a PvP system as bad as UO's one.
People saying Darkfall isn't what UO used to be are right for the mood of the game because there's no victim anymore, but are wrong for the implementation. It's a 3D private shard. There's a moment, if it quacks like a duck... Darkfall is a copy of the old UO.

Games with PvPers only or PvPers who can PvP all their gaming session do work : they know what they are for and aren't expecting easy fights. Whether it's a FPS or Guild Wars, it works when it's done properly, without stupid player justice dream or the possibility to get everything by stealing it from other players.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Coppelia, in the old days there were lots of PvP players who tried to defend the PvMers. The problem was that there wasn't a system that worked. You could kill PKers but that meant nothing to them. They used tactics to dominate, and it's easy to do so, so they won more often than they lost.

It was like a never ending tide of griefers, and they were a small percentage that played for hours on end.

But the thing was, every time UO came out with a new "Justice System", PKing almost completely died for a while due to fear of the punishment. Until the PKers discovered the loopholes. So, yes, a Justice System can work, if there's no loopholes.

And to Skrags claim that the game become "Crime and Punishment Online", no, the lack of PKing would mean you don't have to play that. It allows you to play all the other aspects of the game. But at the same time, it sill leaves a presence there for players to use in a realistic fantasy world setting full of player interactions, good and bad. Where players could have the possibility of hiding Juo'Nar's bones or trying to get them to bring him back in some ritual they've discovered. And I'm not real happy that posters here let that poll die. That would be a great game. Eh, not much I can do about it.

 

[Arcus]

And I'm not real happy that posters here let that poll die. That would be a great game. Eh, not much I can do about it.

Huh? Context? What game?

 

[Trebr Drab]

And I'm not real happy that posters here let that poll die. That would be a great game. Eh, not much I can do about it.

Huh? Context? What game?

It's on page 2, confusing because Azaroth had to make a post with the exact same title 2 hours after mine was made, with a different idea that centered around the oft failed attempts at bounty hunting.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Those who want the old days of UO with Felucca only don't want to PvP, they want to PK, ie kill defenseless victims so they don't risk retaliation.

I want the old days of UO with Felucca...and I never PK'ed anyone. The only players I killed were PKs...so I am going to have to disagree with your assesment of all Classic Shard supporters here.

Darkfall is a copy of the old UO.

It is a real shame this is not true.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Coppelia, in the old days there were lots of PvP players who tried to defend the PvMers. The problem was that there wasn't a system that worked. You could kill PKers but that meant nothing to them. They used tactics to dominate, and it's easy to do so, so they won more often than they lost.

Agreed.

It was like a never ending tide of griefers, and they were a small percentage that played for hours on end.

But I have to disagree here. I suppose it is because my definition of "griefers" does not include people that simply killed other players. I don't think anyone that was playing the game as it was designed were "griefing" anyone. You wouldn't call a player that was mining a "griefer"...because mining was part of the game. You wouldn't call someone that was lumberjacking a "griefer"...because lumberjacking was part of the game. So why do you refer to players that killed other players as "griefers"...killing other players was part of the game.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Coppelia, in the old days there were lots of PvP players who tried to defend the PvMers. The problem was that there wasn't a system that worked. You could kill PKers but that meant nothing to them. They used tactics to dominate, and it's easy to do so, so they won more often than they lost.

Agreed.

It was like a never ending tide of griefers, and they were a small percentage that played for hours on end.

But I have to disagree here. I suppose it is because my definition of "griefers" does not include people that simply killed other players. I don't think anyone that was playing the game as it was designed were "griefing" anyone. You wouldn't call a player that was mining a "griefer"...because mining was part of the game. You wouldn't call someone that was lumberjacking a "griefer"...because lumberjacking was part of the game. So why do you refer to players that killed other players as "griefers"...killing other players was part of the game.

Well, who determines what "grief" is? Raph Koster once said that the number of players that quit UO because of PKing was in the 6 digits. That's at least 100,000 players, and UO had around 300,000 at it's max. That's a huge percentage. If those players, 1 out of 3 (or maybe 4 depending on how you do the math), called it grief, I'd feel safe in saying that it was grief.

 

[HD2300]

Player Justice was implemented in UO:R ==> Trammel. Griefers have been crying ever since.

Griefers, please go and play Darkfall or Mortal Online with yourself.

 

[Skrag]

I have to ask:

If you think so highly of WoW...why aren't you playing it instead?

Because I like being able to control how I look. I like having a house. I like being able to walk around the whole world without most of it being either low-level grey and worthless, or high-level instant death. There's more to a sandbox than PK.

All this crap about a reeeaal worrrrld with consequences and justice and blah blah blah? There are people who want that. Enough of them to populate some text MUDs and freeshards. There was even a WoW freeshard a while back that was modded so you could gank anyone of any faction and take their loot. But expecting large commercial MMO companies to cater to you? Not happening. There aren't enough of you.

There is never going to be an RP wedding in a game, with anti-PKs guarding it in case PKs attack. That sort of worldy crap is just plain over. The type of people who would have an RP wedding aren't going to play the type of game where there might be PKs. There are too many games and too much choice now.

Early UO was a result of a new genre being born with no competition. Nobody knew what they were doing right, or wrong, and there were no other games for people to quit and go play. That environment is never coming back.

Create a game exactly like UO and it won't be the same. Not in 2010. Snap your fingers and magically revert UO to it's 1998 specifications and it still won't be the same. All the trammies will just quit to go play WoW (or carebear freeshards or whatever) and it'll still just be the same handful of Yew Gaters talking smack at each other.

PVPers mostly just want to frag each other. Most of them don't want to deal with the painful consequence of player justice any more than carebears want to be killed. Carebears mostly just want to kill monsters. The people who want a dynamic blah blah world somewhere in between are a vanishingly small minority I never see anywhere outside of UO discussions.

 

[Coppelia]

It is a real shame this is not true.

That's totally true, Darkfall developpers were UO fanboys and wanted to make it the same thing UO was, because it was so much better etc. It failed. What are players saying now? It wasn't like old UO, they didn't manage to make it like in the old times, etc. You know what, that's exactly what players will say if a classic shard by EA comes out when it will fail. Instead of understanding that even with the exact same rules, it won't be the same mood, players will blame devs. They didn't do it correctly or whatever. Just like Darkfall devs. They didn't understand what UO really was, etc. You know the litany.

So keep telling yourself it's possible to have the old UO feeling, ignore that Darkfall devs did all they could to have it, ignore that private shards with those rulesets are all saying the same : not only it isn't the same mood, but you can't stay with that old UO. And that's where the players become madder than a hornet because the changes are never to their liking.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

That's totally true, Darkfall developpers were UO fanboys and wanted to make it the same thing UO was, because it was so much better etc.

Did you actually play Darkfall, or did you base this on hearsay.

I tried Darkfall. It was nothing like old UO except the fact that there was open PvP. What you, and an awful lot of others, don't seem to understand is that old UO was not just open PvP. Classic UO was about a realistic world. Darkfall fell short of that...by a mile. It was more like medeival Half-Life than UO (well, not true...exageration for effect). The first person perspective, the lack of any real emphasis on PvE, the lack of any real emphasis on crafting...all of those things made it not like old UO.

What are players saying now? It wasn't like old UO, they didn't manage to make it like in the old times, etc.

People are saying that because it *actually wasn't* like UO...not because they are upset that they got PK'ed.

You know what, that's exactly what players will say if a classic shard by EA comes out when it will fail. Instead of understanding that even with the exact same rules, it won't be the same mood, players will blame devs. They didn't do it correctly or whatever. Just like Darkfall devs. They didn't understand what UO really was, etc. You know the litany.

I disagree. I believe that there are enough old school UO players that there would be a healthy population on an EA Classic Shard. Would it be the most populated shard...no way. There are waaaaaay too many Carebears that only care about hoarding the latest pixel crack playing the current shards for a Classic Shard to achieve that. But I don't think that the people that would return to play a Classic Shard have the same entitled, cowardly mindset that current players have. They would know from the get go that they were signing up on an open PvP shard, and thus would not get their feelings hurt when someone PK'ed them...unlike the existing population on the current shards.

When Trammel was introduced, all of the Carebears went to Trammel, all of the PKs and most of the Anti-PKs just quit after a short time. Many of them have come back off and on, but most have not kept their subscriptions current for any meaningful period of time. So the people that populate the current shards, for the most part, are indeed Carebears...Trammies. Like yourself, and Skrag, and HD2300. Of course *you* don't want a Classic Shard...you got what you wanted when Ren released. So it is natural for you to assume that everyone interested in UO must be interested in a no risk, no challenge, never lose anything, easy mode environment. But there are other people, myself included, that would prefer the game with the challenge that PKs brought...and would definitely prefer not having to deal with AoS and the outrageously ridiculous inflation it brought with it.

So keep telling yourself it's possible to have the old UO feeling, ignore that Darkfall devs did all they could to have it, ignore that private shards with those rulesets are all saying the same : not only it isn't the same mood, but you can't stay with that old UO. And that's where the players become madder than a hornet because the changes are never to their liking.

I have never said that the "feeling" would be the same. That is one of the greatest misconceptions about Classic Shard supporters. It's not about "feelings" or "nostalgia" or "happy memories" or magic rays of sunshine...it's strictly about gameplay mechanics and rulesets.

It doesn't really matter. EA is not likely to fund a Classic Shard, and EA is *certainly* not going to fund a Classic Shard with all of the changes Azaroth Dragon has in mind. IF they were to make a Classic Shard, they would likely make it an exact copy, or as close to it as possible, of T2A because that is the best chance they would have of pulling back the players they lost with Trammel and AoS. UO does not pull in the kind of subscription revenue that it would take to create a new shard...or new expansions. So no, the game is not dead, but I wouldn't be paying for more than a few months to a year in advance if I were you.

 

[Smokin]

Why do people put Trammel and AoS together, they are two different things completely.

 

[Clx-]

Why do people put Trammel and AoS together, they are two different things completely.

Because they were the two most overwhelming changes applied to the game. They occurred at different times and had different effects obviously, but I think that's why you often see them used together in this context.

 

[Skrag]

Bottom line is that no game will ever again have the combination of monster farmers, PVPers, roleplayers, newbs, crafters, etc. that early UO had. Not under an open PVP ruleset.

Create your worldy dream game of "meaningful" this and "dynamic" that and odds are (if it has more than like 20 players) it'll just fill up with the same bunch of guys named after rappers screaming badly-spelled insults at each other that you see crapping up General chat in UO.

Ye Royal Roleplaying Guild isn't going to show up in your game and hire people to guard their tavern nights, creating dynamic blah blah community blah. YRRG is playing some carebear game where they can emote away happily and not have to worry about it.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Why do people put Trammel and AoS together, they are two different things completely.

Some of us consider AoS to be the natural result of Trammel.

When the devs put Trammel in, it ultimately led to boredom. There are only so many times you can kill liches and demons before you start to get a little tired of it...especially if you can do it in complete safety with little or no chance of losing your equipment. So AoS was brought in to move the focus of the game away from being a "sandbox" to being a "theme park".

In a "sandbox" game, you, the player, just make your own fun. You go where you want, do what you want, and just play the game however you want. That was UO before AoS. You could acquire all of the gear you needed by fighting almost any creature in the game, and you could craft things that were equally useful. There was no need to 'farm' specific areas or creatures over and over.

In a "theme park" game, new attractions are added on regular basis, and the old attractions, after a time, become less used. The new attractions are what keep players playing (paying)...instead of the sense of open ended game play they had in the "sandbox".

Is one better than the other? It is all a matter of personal preference. But it is pretty hard to imagine UO still being around today with Trammel, but not AoS. Once risk is removed from the game, challenge has to come from another source...and in the case of AoS, it came from collecting a seemingly never ending stream of items aimed at, and necessary for, defeating the newest and "toughest" monsters in the latest addition.

 

[Smokin]

Some of us consider AoS to be the natural result of Trammel.

When the devs put Trammel in, it ultimately led to boredom. There are only so many times you can kill liches and demons before you start to get a little tired of it...especially if you can do it in complete safety with little or no chance of losing your equipment. So AoS was brought in to move the focus of the game away from being a "sandbox" to being a "theme park".

In a "sandbox" game, you, the player, just make your own fun. You go where you want, do what you want, and just play the game however you want. That was UO before AoS. You could acquire all of the gear you needed by fighting almost any creature in the game, and you could craft things that were equally useful. There was no need to 'farm' specific areas or creatures over and over.

In a "theme park" game, new attractions are added on regular basis, and the old attractions, after a time, become less used. The new attractions are what keep players playing (paying)...instead of the sense of open ended game play they had in the "sandbox".

Is one better than the other? It is all a matter of personal preference. But it is pretty hard to imagine UO still being around today with Trammel, but not AoS. Once risk is removed from the game, challenge has to come from another source...and in the case of AoS, it came from collecting a seemingly never ending stream of items aimed at, and necessary for, defeating the newest and "toughest" monsters in the latest addition.

Well to me AoS is what ruined the game, it wasn't so much the theme park part its more the huge change of all the items. The new resists the changing of skills making it harder to get a competitive suit, and honestly that is why a lot of people left. Many did not stick it out and left because their old gear was getting them killed really fast. This is in PVP also. Its much like how they nerfed Double strike right away but really it was because people were using crap gear that they were getting killed.

So saying Trammel and AoS are they same or you could only have AoS with trammel is not quite right. They could have easily left the skills they way they were and items. AoS was such a huge change that so many left and its proven on the dates of when the decline started.

Before AoS I remember losing items quite frequently either from being broken or by not getting back to my body in time, or coming back and having someone looting my bones.

Also your sandbox thing is kind of right but you are also forgetting that bully in the sandbox kicking everyone out. Not all like that unless your one that joins up with the bully.