Balancing Tamer's in PvP

[WarUltima]

I would do some of these to balance tamers in PvP.

1. Lower pets deal 40% of the damage to player scales up to full damage with 120 REAL taming/lore/vet. Every 10 points over real GM taming/lore/vet gives your pet 10% damage bonus. Up to full dmg.

This will have minimal impact on real PvM tamers (but serious impact to those PvP tamers that usually FAKE as a PvM tamer and QQ


2. Casting pets follow player casting rules.

3. Make items and skill interact with each other, like how having bushido and parry, you are not effective with a shield. So if you have both taming and lore over 90 you get a hit chance cap of zero. You can still play your dismount all kill, just that you will need to live with no HCI (you are a tamer and your pet fight for you, you are not as well trained and therefore accurate as regular archers and warriors that fight along).

4. Kinda like 3. but make it so it gives you -45 HCI you can over cap your HCI so you can come up with 90 hit chance on your suit so you can go back to full power as rightnow.

5. Dismount ATTEMPT, prevents you to mount a pet same as if you have successfully dismounted someone (this is to balance the drive by 50 dmg dismount tardness, so there's some consequence in whiffing, not simply remount and rinse and repeat.)

6. THE EASIEST FIX (not effective) is dismount special is un-toggled and make it impossible to have dismount special toggled while mounted. IMO this should have always been how it should work and has been bugged forever.

7. You will be able to dismount archers while they are holding a HXbow with a lance while you are mounted. This resurrect lance, and will make those drive by dismount gank squad to think about the consequence besides makes it that much more interesting.

8. Simply untoggle dismount when mounted and unable to toggle dismount for 3 seconds after you dismounted yourself, or left aminal form.


Just some ideas and to those "fake" pvm tamers, most of my changes other than 2 and 3 do not affect real PvM tamers at all.

 

[Llewen]

Having pets do half damage in pvp would effectively remove pets from pvp, which is what most tamer haters want (actually most tamer haters want pets removed from the game period), which is why I called you a tamer hater.

This is exactly what needs to happen with tamers. No matter what way you try to spin or delude it, fighting a tamer is one part PvP and one part PvM. Fighting the tamer themselves is PvP, fighting their pet is PvM. The PvM aspect is not PvP, and since tamers use pets this means that tamers are not PvP either.

Yes the pet is at least partially controlled by the a.i. However, that does not mean fighting a tamer with a pet is part pvm. All it means is that there is a random component to the way the "weapon" deals damage, in much the same way that there is a random component to any form of spell or weapon damage, it's just magnified with a pet.

However, as I said, a pet without an owner controlling it does nothing but die. Even a greater dragon will die quickly without an owner around to control it and keep it alive. Pvp'ing with a pet is as much pvp as pvp'ing with any weapon is, including spell books. I can tell you from experience that there is a very big difference between fighting a clueless tamer, and a skilled tamer.

And for the most part pets aren't over powered in pvp, in my opinion. However, I do think that specifically the dexxer tamer and archer tamer templates can be overpowered. They still take skill to play well, but that doesn't change the fact that they could use some balancing, and that is what my suggestion is all about - balancing these specific kinds of hybrid tamers, without destroying the viability of tamers in pvp.

 

[Beleth of Atlantic]

How about if a pet is ressed by anyone besides the owner, that pet becomes unbonded?

This pet would not take the usual time to rebond, only 24 hours.

If a pet is ressed by its owner it remains bonded and only takes .1 skill loss (just so people don't go crazy and let there pets die over and over when they have vet).

 

[Vaelix]

Yes the pet is at least partially controlled by the a.i. However, that does not mean fighting a tamer with a pet is part pvm. All it means is that there is a random component to the way the "weapon" deals damage, in much the same way that there is a random component to any form of spell or weapon damage, it's just magnified with a pet.

My weapon doesn't think independently from myself once I've told it to do Something. (Like a Pet)

My weapon isnt a Hybrid "Thing" and functions in one way, As a Weapon. (Where as a Pet can Function as a Meleer or Caster)

My weapon doesnt have the HP of 3-5 Players combined.

My weapon is limited to a swing speed, as is my casting, where as your weapon doesnt have the limitation of "Speed" for casting.

-Kinda the same as 2nd- My weapon doesnt Add 700 extra skill to my template ( 7x GM Pet )

My weapon and casting are subject to Range checks (And while a Pet is as well, Combined with the "Style" of casting pets do, it is highly flawed).

-----

I could go on.. Alot..

But pretty much what it comes down to is 110 Tame 115 Lore (Around those numbers) offers *WAY* too much viability to a template..

I mean hell, A Pet is Both an amazing offense and defense, Combine the power of the pets with the Rather low skill investment for said power, and its easy to make templates like mine which are vastly overpowered in every aspect.

Edit : Thought of this wording after I posted it..

Basically for a 225 Total Skill Investment ( 110 115 ) You can add 700+ Extra Skill to your template which can function independently outside of basic commands. - How do people not realize that is OP as Hell?

Edit 2 : Also, with Dreadmares/Ect (Mount PvP Pets) in the Mix, Tamers can have an addition to their template that is 100% INVULNERABLE unless the Tamer is Dismounted for some reason.

 

[I Play UO]

However, as I said, a pet without an owner controlling it does nothing but die. Even a greater dragon will die quickly without an owner around to control it and keep it alive. Pvp'ing with a pet is as much pvp as pvp'ing with any weapon is, including spell books. I can tell you from experience that there is a very big difference between fighting a clueless tamer, and a skilled tamer.

This is like saying it's easier to kill a moron than your averagely intelligent person. Anyone with any basic knowledge of PvP can play a tamer effectively because all they have to do is say all kill. You are completely wrong about needing a skilled tamer to kill someone. It takes a good TWO MINUTES for a mage to kill one single greater dragon, and that's only if they have a slayer handy. When you fight a tamer do you ever die to the tamer themselves? No, you don't. You die to their pet. You always talk like you're so good at PvP or something...LLewen, I hate to be the one to break the news to you but you're not...you're not even a good tamer by your own standards. You would fall under the category of "clueless tamer". The only reason you're defending taming is because you and I both know you would never have a chance in PvP without it. Stop trying to hide your true agenda.

 

[Going Going Gone]

Imo,

1. Flagged pets should not disappear when their masters logs off.
2. All damage made by pets to players (melee, fire breath, magery, etc) should be capped at 35.
3. Because the owner of the pet does not choose wich spell is casted, tamed pets should cast offensive spells from any circle randomly.
4. It should be possible to make pets fizzle when they cast.
5. Casting should be caped at 2/6.
6. It should be possible to provoke a pet on his owner.
7. The owner of the provoked pet should be unable to control it for 1 minute.
8. Pet balls of summoning should have a 5 minutes cooldown.
9. Dead pets should not have a ghost and the owner of a dead pet should apply bandages on the corps of his dead pet (where it died) in order to resurrect it.
10. Pets should be attackable even when mounted and attacking a pet should not flag you grey to anyone except the owner of the pet.

10.1. Don't worry, none of this will ever happen. The tamer lobby is big enough and has alot of posters here. EA won't displease their customers!

10.2. I am a tamer hater, so I enjoyed making this post

 

[WarUltima]

People who comparing pets to weapons is funny as hell.

So in their opinions (flawed) dreadmare bake is their weapons.
So damage wise, dreadmare hits like a truck and fire breath like a cannon and is mountable and bake which rage attacks with great resist across the board AND casts is like a automatic BB gun.

Ok let's talk about weapons... so after you told your pets to "all kill" did it drop your weapon that you are holding? I believe you can still use the weapon in your hand in conjunction to your "pet weapons".

So an archer is an archer he uses hit bow and shoot you...
And a archer tamer is hmmm lets see, an archer who rids on the back of am armored truck, that when he "take cover" and jump off the truck and hit you with his bow, then his "truck" will automatically homing to you and try to run you over, with a cannon (fire breathe) mounted right on top of it that fires once a few seconds automatically at you, while the automatic mini gun (pet chaining flame strikes/poison/para ect) that's mounted on the side of the tank is also spreading its bullets at you AND while you are being attacked by an archer with his bow, chased by an automatic homing truck that's trying to run you over, WHILE the cannon is blowing you up WHILE the mini gun is spreading bullets at you the heavily armored motorcycle (the bake) is also trying to hit you while the automatic BB gun mounted on it is also shooting at you...

I dont even know what I just wrote (i know its messy sorry) but that's the power difference between an archer and an archer tamer.

So you are using 1 weapon, the tamer archer uses 3. And just like your bow, the tamer's bow also hit you just as hard as you hit him. However unlike you, the tamer has 2 additional "side arms" that deal 5x more damage than your ONLY weapon, AND his "side arms" not only will tear you apart if you got too close, they will tear you apart at the range "casting faster than any mage in UO WHILE on the run".

So an Archer uses a weapon and uses all archery specials
vs
Tamer archer who uses a weapon and all archery specials + 40 Damage Firebreathe + Rage attack that interrupts + TWO melee dexers that hits harder than player controlled legendary warrior + Flame strike + Ebolt + Explosion + Poison + Paralyze + Weaken + Feeble Mind + Curse + Fireball + Lighting and so on.

The red part is just a tiny little bit of extra power the tamer archer compare to a common archer. I am sure not THAT big of the difference, archer tamer is fine, just kill the pets first (since the pets ONLY have 8x more hp than you do), I am sure the tamer archer is probably completely ******** and dont hit you with their AI or 50 damage dismount while you are doing zero (0) damage to him...

Yea all those
"Kill the pets first"
"you take down the pets you take down the tamer"
ect comments crack me up every time when I have to hear them.

oh and I remember some tamer said, he CANNOT survive 4 mages sync dumping him while he's on foot coz he dismount all killed on one of them... therefore he thinks archer tamers are balanced, because he's HP bar can still reached zero due to 4x explosion flame strike sync dump. And he suggested that you "bring your friends" whenever he tries to dismount all kill you so you can stand a better chance.

I played tamer archer before, you dont have to be good/skilled.

I only use UOAssist so maybe there's better way to do this. You need a refined macro that goes like this Dismount Self -> Attack Last ->All Kill -> Larget Last Target.

All you gotta do is get someone you wanna kill on your last target. Run away and dismount and pre-toogle Dismount Shot and jump back on your dreadmare. Run to the victim and click that macro buttom, and then follow him and keeps toggling moving shot... I wouldnt call that "skill". I've killed plenty of people on tamer archer with just 2 bottoms so many times (dismount all kill macro and secondary special move).

Maybe hes referring the "skill" to having to bandage himself + chug pots + toggle specials... but isnt it JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER ARCHERS that also has to do?????

Tamer archer gets really boring quick. You really dont have much to do. You have better offense, better defense and if you still suck very hard and die to someone 1v1, your pets will probably kill him for you or they automatically galaxy wrap and turns on godmode and leave the battlefield, until you call them again.

Yes, tamer archers are just like every other tamplates out there, and takes wayyy more skill to play than stupid bottom mashing mages, if you die to archer tamer 1v1 you just got outplayed, hes got better skill than you because it's very hard to click all kill last target macro. GG, learn to play, you stupid tamer haters!!!111one11!eleven1

 

[Victoria Navarre]

My ideas for putting more balance into the pvp tamer.Commanding a pet to do your bidding should be "mentally challenging",thus it should cost mana to do so,just like the bardic spellsongs.Require dex to vet your pet. I have to have decently high dex to use bandages with my healer,it should be the same with the tamer/vet.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

People who comparing pets to weapons is funny as hell.

Your posts are to long for me to quote.

All of your complaints are about archer tamers, and only addresses that single template. None of what you said would actually balance tamers in pvp.

I can agree with most that the damage pets "can" do is a ton, and should possibly be toned down vs players, how to do this? I am not sure. But if we are going to cap 1 damage type then all should be equally as such, for the most part it is difficult to hit for more than 35 damage but it is not "impossible". I agree with dragons and dreads doing to much damage with their firebreath (around 60 damage?) I have been on both sides of the dreads attack both as a tamer and not as a tamer. These animals are really not that hard to kill once you isolate them. I do not personally ever use a greater dragon as it is really just a tank and I do not really need any more defensive ability and have never had any trouble vs a tamer with one. Now in a group the dragon might pose an issue but only if it was only me vs more than one player + a greater.

Honestly my tamer is my hardest character to get kills on so long as the other party is not stupid, knows how to run/isolate the pets. Or maybe its just that I never really used it 1v1 and usually have to focus on 2 or 3 people attacking me, either way I still find it harder to actually get a kill with him than any other characters, of course I find it easiest to stay alive and run people off.

Note: The firebreath attack of the dread and greaters could be brought down to be more inline with other types of attacks from players, such as around 35? Also Nothing wrong with toning the casting speed down some, although I only find this an issue when playing a mage and have 2 fast casters dump on you makes it a bit hard to do anything.

 

[Vaelix]

6. It should be possible to provoke a pet on his owner.

I was talking about this years ago, *IMO* this change alone would balance Tamers while also giving you a reason to use Provo in PvP.

 

[CroakerTnT]

Not bad ideas.

They also need to slow pets down so they can't keep up with people when they run. And they need to remove the firebreath of dragons and mares from pvp.

 

[Llewen]

My weapon doesn't think independently from myself once I've told it to do Something. (Like a Pet)

Sure it does, in exactly the same way a pet does. You double click to attack and your weapon keeps swinging away as long as you are within range.

My weapon isnt a Hybrid "Thing" and functions in one way, As a Weapon. (Where as a Pet can Function as a Meleer or Caster)

It isn't? Your average pvp weapon has five "mods" on it, all five of which provide some kind of magical enhancement which often includes a separate distinct random attack spell effect.

My weapon doesnt have the HP of 3-5 Players combined.

No your weapon can't be killed unless you are stupid enough to let it wear out, which typically takes a hell of a lot longer than it would take to kill a pet.

My weapon is limited to a swing speed, as is my casting, where as your weapon doesnt have the limitation of "Speed" for casting.

For every advantage a pet has, there are just as many, if not more, disadvantages. Sure the game a.i. doesn't follow the same casting rules as players do, but then the game a.i. casts spells randomly and doesn't use "intelligent" spell or attack combos. And pets also move at less than half the speed of a normal mounted player, and slower than a dismounted player as well. Pets get caught up on corners of houses, or on other objects in a way players don't.

I could go on.. Alot..

I could go on as well. There are advantages and disadvantages to using pets, just as there are with any weapon or skill choice you make in pvp. And part of the "skill" involved is learning how to minimize the weaknesses of your chosen weapon, while capitalizing on the strengths.

Anyone with any basic knowledge of PvP can play a tamer effectively because all they have to do is say all kill. You are completely wrong about needing a skilled tamer to kill someone. It takes a good TWO MINUTES for a mage to kill one single greater dragon, and that's only if they have a slayer handy.

I've been reading this same kind of nonsense for years. All I have to do is say "all kill"? You clearly have no clue. I have two distinct ways of initiating attacks with my pet, and which one I use depends on the tactical context. My "all kill" command macro contains no less than three distinct pet commands.

And as for the two minutes to kill a greater dragon? That's odd. I can kill a greater dragon in less than a minute easily, and the same could be said for just about anyone that actually knows what they are doing. If you don't know what you are doing, or you aren't prepared, yes, it takes longer than that.

But who cares whether you can kill the greater dragon or not when the greater dragon moves significantly slower than a dismounted player, and is extremely easy to lose on the corners of buildings, or on objects in dungeons? I think I know one player that regularly uses a greater dragon in pvp, and he doesn't really do all that well with it.

Greater dragons used to be useful in certain tactical pvp situations, but honestly, these days with hail storm and slayer spell books, they are for all practical purposes pretty much useless in pvp, and your choosing them as the target for your ire tells me you don't know much about pvp'ing with, or against, pets.

 

[Fernadious]

Lol, NecroTamer withering next to you with Gdragon, U DED!

 

[Fernadious]

Also compairing weapons to pets is just stupid. Since tamers can be dexxers/mages/archers whatever.

 

[Llewen]

1. MAKE THE PLAYERS ACTUALLY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING - To have a pet still obey your commands you should have to be on screen. So, none of this dragon chasing someone for 10 screens without the owner being anywhere in sight. That's just Silly.

Actually pets do have to be within range to obey an owner command. Yes they keep obeying the last owner command until aggression is broken with their target, but you can't command a pet that is off your screen to do anything.

2. If you have 5 Followers and one of them isn't a mount you happen to be on, then there is no reason you should be running at mount speed. Presently 95% of tamers are all about just saying all Kill, and then going animal form, or flying around, and doing nothing but surviving while they *Pray* Their pet gets a kill.

That's really quite odd. Do you play Siege? If you do, then the issues on Siege are different than they are on regular shards for a number of reasons, and need to be dealt with separately. I've been saying for years that a bonded pet on Siege needs to count as your Siege blessed item, or better yet, get rid of Siege blessed items and bonded pets entirely on Siege.

...as far as i'm concerned PvM is Easier than a 4 piece Jigsaw Puzzle.

If it's so easy, and you think that playing against pets is actually pvm, then what's the problem? Kill the annoying pets and then go finish up the "lamer", and stop whining. But it isn't that easy is it? Part of the skill involved in playing a pvp tamer is keeping yourself and your pets alive. Unless you've done it yourself you don't know what a big challenge it can be to keep yourself and your pets alive so you can stay in the fight, especially in a fight involving more than one opponent.

3. After Death Players cannot Summon their pet until they have been Resurrected. You brought the Pets out to Play, you FAILED, now you need to suffer the consequences. Consider it PET insurance.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Pets can't be summoned or commanded in any way by a dead player, and if you are in factions you won't be able to command or control any of the high level pets until after you get out of stat.

4. Remove the 35 Damage Cap from armor ignores to Pets. Nothing like Armore Ignoring a greater dragon with your special made comp bow and it only does 35 damage when it should do 150++

As far as I know the pvp damage caps don't apply to pets. I think this is another example of you not knowing what you are talking about. If there is a bug somewhere, report it, but I know that archers can do significantly more than 35 points of damage in one shot against my pets.

 

[Llewen]

Also compairing weapons to pets is just stupid. Since tamers can be dexxers/mages/archers whatever.

What, other templates can't use more than one weapon? Other templates can't use summons or pets? They are all just weapons, each with it's own particular abilities, strengths and weaknesses.

 

[WarUltima]

Pets are slow for mounted players so they really dont mean too much since anyone mounted and run away from pets range (even tho sometimes they fire breathe you from x screens away).

What I am addressing is archer tamers mainly, the skill scaled pet damage idea can be applied to tamer mages.

Here's what I think. Tamer mage imo is one of the less powerful PvP tamer template, because they are missing the most important factor "being able to INSTANTLY force their victim on foot. And HXbow is the only weapon/tool/item in the entire UO that's capable of doing 50+ damage in one hit WHILE render your enemy on foot for x amount of seconds, and doesnt require casting time.

Without instant dismount like archer, the mage is forced to use bola, while it's easy to bola the newbie players, any experienced PvPer knows their way to escape a bola attack. And bola dismount does 3 to 5 damage, while HXBow dismount does 1000% more damage. Bola has a delay timer, and people can offscreen it very easily, oh if you are doing to say that bola teleport thingy, you simply dismount yourself while the mage is casting teleport.

Bola is easily escaped, slow to use and it does 3 damage.
Dismount HXBow is instant, can be "precasted" while tamer is mounted and is capable of dealing as much damage as 1/3 of a player's MAX HP. (again it's about 1000% more than bola dmg).

IMO, tamer mage is no where as powerful as a myst mage (without pet), and I would rather be fighting a tamer mage than myst mage, HOWEVER I'd rather be fighting a Myst Mage Tamer + DREAD MARE than fighting a tamer archer.

But again it's not the pets, it's the fact that archery is already so goddamn powerful and has the ONLY instant ranged dismount attack AND the attack deals out 50+ of damage vs all 70 player. I dont even think cursed FS omen can do 50 dmg to 60 resist player.

It's late and I am tired, let me say it this way.

1. Pets are fine, but effective dismount attack that deals 50 damage which makes you running away on foot while being moving shot'ed by the tamer archer with a heavy for 30+ a hit AND you are being fire breathe coming right up your ass for another 35 to 45dmg AND the bake is also casting on you AND bake casts fast as hell and their spells do hit HARD.

I did a few test, if the archer tamer dismounted you at melee range, it takes you around 7 to 10 second to be far enough for the pets to cast on you, (the archer will be attacking you with moving shot none stop or some of them do dismount paralyze blow for their pet to get closer, then mortal) and with in the 10 second window, you just took a 50dmg dismount, and the follow 7 to 10 second is enough for the archer to moving shot you 3 more times, while its enough for the dread/bake to cast 3 sets of spells (thats 6 spells) each and you will usually be fire breathed at least once.

Again, at least for tamer mages, they need to know how to play their mage part (skill), otherwise they will get slaughtered by a half way decent archer. Compare to archer tamer, the click 1 bottom that put you on the ground and pets ganking you, they just follow you and re-toggle moving shot (hardly ever any skill involved). And mage tamer when they got low, they have to take a chance and stop and heal, or they get moving shotted to death, the tamer archer on the other hand, if he's low he can dip out in straight line and never turn around until they are fully healed, and the they will rinse and repeat their one and only tactics... offscreen, pre-toggle dismount, run to victim, click macro, moving shot spam, if target dies, GG pure skill, if target survived, run away offscreen, and try again after 8 seconds.

 

[Llewen]

They also need to slow pets down so they can't keep up with people when they run.

They can't. Not even the fastest pets can keep up with a player on foot, let alone on mounts. Making them move any slower would be ridiculous.

 

[WarUltima]

What, other templates can't use more than one weapon? Other templates can't use summons or pets? They are all just weapons, each with it's own particular abilities, strengths and weaknesses.

Ok name me an archer template that can equip a HXBOw + a Composite + Yumi at the same time and shoots 3 arrows per swing once every 1.25 sec. while the tamer is still shoot at you.

Name me a mage template that can INSTANT CAST FS on the run. while the tamer is still shoot at you.

Name me a melee dexer template that can equip a bokuto, kryss, ornate axe at the sametime? while the tamer is still shoot at you.

Name me a summon that cannot be dispelled.

Name me a weapon that can swings at cap speed for 40+ dmg per swing AND bled you WHILE shooting out all kinds of magery spells at you WHILE fire breathe you for another 50? while the tamer is still shoot at you.

What weakness LOL... if you ever die to a straight archer or mage 1v1, you really need to quit UO.

There's no easier template to play that also packs more punch than myst cookie cutter in UO.

Your main offensive revolves around pre-toggle dismount, mount up, run to victim and click one(1) macro and then moving shot over and over.

target dies -> GG ...
target survives -> remount run away, repeat from step one.

 

[Llewen]

1. Pets are fine, but effective dismount attack that deals 50 damage which makes you running away on foot while being moving shot'ed by the tamer archer with a heavy for 30+ a hit AND you are being fire breathe coming right up your ass for another 35 to 45dmg AND the bake is also casting on you AND bake casts fast as hell and their spells do hit HARD.

I agree with most of this, other than I think bakes suck and if you ever try pvp'ing against me with one, I'll show you why.

Name me a summon that cannot be dispelled.

I'm not going to respond to the rest of this other than to say orc brutes are a summons that can't be dispelled, and vollems are available to anyone with no skill cost and they are more effective than your average bake. As for the rest of this, I've had this discussion many times.

There are drawbacks and benefits to any weapon choice in UO. Pets do some things that players can't, but there are many things that players can do, or other weapons can do, or benefits that they have, that pets don't.

- Pets don't have hci or dci.
- Pets don't have ssi.
- Pets don't have sdi.
- Pets don't have lmc.
- Pets don't use intelligent spell or attack combinations.
- Did I mention that pets move very slowly?
- Every pet is vulnerable to consecrate weapon.
- Most pets are vulnerable to slayers.
- Pvp damage and bonus caps don't apply to pets.
- Invisibility breaks pet aggression.

And I'm sure I could make the list longer if I wanted to spend more time on it. The truth is that you are right, pets aren't the problem in pvp, the problem is primarily archers, and to a lesser extent dexxer tamers.

 

[G.v.P]

I play a pvp tamer, and I believe tamers are a legitimate pvp template [...] The real problem is that pvp tamers are able to have virtually the full benefits of two templates, the tamer template, and whatever the other half of the template is.

You believe tamers are legitimate in PvP yet you just answered why most people disagree. Are you sure, then, tamers are legitimate? lol

Right now faction tamers are vulnerable to being griefed by rogue faction mates.

Rogue faction members should get punished a little more. Maybe a two-hour stat or something crazy. Hell, what about a faction murder count? Get five same-faction murders and you're auto-kicked from the faction, turn red, and have to burn off the counts before you can join factions again (with a separate counter pardons can't fix).

Carrot: If you resurrect your own pet your pet suffers no skill loss.

No. Tamers need to lose something when their pet dies. Bad enough you guys can just exploit to get your pet back or remove it from action before it dies or after you die.

Stick: If someone else resurrects your pet your pet suffers a full point (1.0) of skill loss. If your pet is resurrected by an npc vet your pet suffers two full points (2.0) of skill loss.

Way too strict, negates team play in PvP and PvM. Understandable against multi-account users, but too strict.

 

[G.v.P]

- Pets don't have hci or dci.
- Pets don't have ssi.
- Pets don't have sdi.
- Pets don't have lmc.
- Pets don't use intelligent spell or attack combinations.
- Did I mention that pets move very slowly?
- Every pet is vulnerable to consecrate weapon.
- Most pets are vulnerable to slayers.
- Pvp damage and bonus caps don't apply to pets.
- Invisibility breaks pet aggression.

Some pets can have more than 120 wrestle, others can have more Dex than players, all INT heavy pets have faster mana regen, all casting pets are uninterruptable, the pet doesn't need "intelligence" for owner to dismount/firebreath, pets aren't that slow when they can hit for 35 damage a hit, pets are only vulnerable once the owner is dead, pets don't follow PvP cap against players (except hard cap on firebreath), pets receive tact bonus if over 125 STR like anything else in game, all kill is faster to "cast" than invis.

This whole "my pet is my weapon" metaphor never works. Oh yeah, plus pets can use owner's HLA/HLD etc.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

No. Tamers need to lose something when their pet dies. Bad enough you guys can just exploit to get your pet back or remove it from action before it dies or after you die.

Way too strict, negates team play in PvP and PvM. Understandable against multi-account users, but too strict.

Just these two real quickly. First one would be affected only if you have full vet on your character, as in at the time the pet dies if your vet+lore=x then you lose no skill points. I would think to make it further you would need vet+lore to = 240 for the "no skill loss" and anything less than 240 makes you lose x amount of skill per...say, 10 points in the skill?

The other part I mentioned should only be in PvP as in "when flagged" since every player and mobile has such a tag it could be codeable to be only when they die in pvp and are ressed by another player other than the tamer. It might be viable to be able to pass a check for if the tamer in question has vet when the pet dies and thus lessening this if someone else is simply just helping/team playing.

 

[Llewen]

Stick: If someone else resurrects your pet your pet suffers a full point (1.0) of skill loss. If your pet is resurrected by an npc vet your pet suffers two full points (2.0) of skill loss.

Way too strict, negates team play in PvP and PvM. Understandable against multi-account users, but too strict.

This isn't about team play, this is about making the current archer and dexxer tamer templates less powerful by giving them a choice of either adding vet to the template, or having a less powerful pet. Teamwork is still essential in group pvp with or without this.

Oh yeah, plus pets can use owner's HLA/HLD etc.

Nonsense. The only thing I've seen remotely close to this is that the orc brute uses the owner's resisting spells skill and hides when the owner hides. No other pet takes any skills or modifiers from their owner. And both of us can make very long lists of what pets can and cannot do compared to what other weapons can or cannot do.

It doesn't negate the fact that they are essentially a piece of player equipment, all it does is emphasize what I've already said, no one piece of equipment, or class of equipment does everything, they all do different things, and have varying strengths and weaknesses, that's part of what makes the game fun.

Which leads us to the fundamental reason why I say that tamers belong in pvp as much as any other template, and that is variety and fun. They offer a different experience, both in playing them, and in playing against them, and in my opinion variety and choices are what make UO fun, interesting and challenging.

If you were to pay attention to some posters you'd think that the only valid pvp is two naked mages running around on foot casting on each other. Well that's bollocks. If you want to create a game like that, be my guest. It won't sell well, but you are welcome to try. I love UO because there are all kinds of different things you can do, and all kinds of different choices you can make and challenges you can face.

And tamers in pvp are part of the wonderful variety that makes UO interesting.

 

[I Play UO]

I've been reading this same kind of nonsense for years. All I have to do is say "all kill"? You clearly have no clue. I have two distinct ways of initiating attacks with my pet, and which one I use depends on the tactical context. My "all kill" command macro contains no less than three distinct pet commands.

And as for the two minutes to kill a greater dragon? That's odd. I can kill a greater dragon in less than a minute easily, and the same could be said for just about anyone that actually knows what they are doing. If you don't know what you are doing, or you aren't prepared, yes, it takes longer than that.

But who cares whether you can kill the greater dragon or not when the greater dragon moves significantly slower than a dismounted player, and is extremely easy to lose on the corners of buildings, or on objects in dungeons? I think I know one player that regularly uses a greater dragon in pvp, and he doesn't really do all that well with it.

Greater dragons used to be useful in certain tactical pvp situations, but honestly, these days with hail storm and slayer spell books, they are for all practical purposes pretty much useless in pvp, and your choosing them as the target for your ire tells me you don't know much about pvp'ing with, or against, pets.

I like how you turned the entire debate toward greater dragons just because that was the one pet I happened to name. Tell me, how am I supposed to compete with a tamer? If you target the pet, the tamer attacks you. If you target the tamer, the pet attacks you. It's a lose lose situation no matter how you try to combat a tamer. Better yet, people are running around with these dismount archer tamers, which put you on foot and then sick a dread mare on you while spamming running shot. Pets can't outrun a player, but what's to stop the tamer from remounting and chasing you down and then putting the pet on you once again? What about when a mage has to stop to cast and a dread mare hits him for 35 damage plus whatever random spells it happens to cast? Anyone who knows anything about PvP knows what a joke tamers are. I'm sorry that you're so untalented at UO that you actually believe tamers take skill to play.

 

[WarUltima]

Some pets can have more than 120 wrestle, others can have more Dex than players, all INT heavy pets have faster mana regen, all casting pets are uninterruptable, the pet doesn't need "intelligence" for owner to dismount/firebreath, pets aren't that slow when they can hit for 35 damage a hit, pets are only vulnerable once the owner is dead, pets don't follow PvP cap against players (except hard cap on firebreath), pets receive tact bonus if over 125 STR like anything else in game, all kill is faster to "cast" than invis.

This whole "my pet is my weapon" metaphor never works. Oh yeah, plus pets can use owner's HLA/HLD etc.

And I will add to that, PvP dmg cap do apply to pets, AI is also capped at 35 to pets.

Unless the tamer is dead/stupid then pet is vulnerable to nothing.

Pet doesnt have to stop to cast.

Pet casts 2 spells back to back instantly.

Pet casting is not interruptable.

Some pet has a huge amount of int (eg 500 int thats 50sdi along).

Superdragon/all pets at over 150 dex swings at PvP cap (1.25s).

No dexer weapon can be swung at pvp cap speed that does 40dmg to 70 resist without special and hit spell oh and bleed you everytime they hit you.

Also orc brute is not commandable, make all tamer pets to act the same way as orc brutes and you have a point and pets doesnt disappear in 5 minutes.

Pets after they disappear/die they dont have to wait for 30 minutes before tamer can call pets again.

Since fire breathe is on seperate attack cycle than spells, it's possible for a superdragon/dread to "Melee Hit You for 40dmg" + "Bleed" + "FS x 2" + "Fire Breathe" you all together with in the same second...

And my weapons cannot tank for me take 1000 damage for me before I have to call him away to safty instantly.

My weapons dont continuously attack my enemy after I have died. And I can help them by reloging and give them instant teleport ability with 3000 million tile range that works across sub-servers.

I can easily make the list much longer if I try, hopefully you can see the point.

 

[Llewen]

Tell me, how am I supposed to compete with a tamer?

I can assure you that there are plenty of people that can compete with tamers. Archer tamers and to a lesser extent dexxer tamers are a problem, which is what this thread is all about, but there are actually not very many other kinds of tamers in pvp. Why? Because other forms of tamers are challenging to play, and don't generally do all that well in pvp.

And I will add to that, PvP dmg cap do apply to pets, AI is also capped at 35 to pets.

I can assure you, pvp damage caps do not apply to pets.

Unless the tamer is dead/stupid then pet is vulnerable to nothing.

Bloody ridiculous statement. The only pet that is "vulnerable to nothing" is a mounted pet, and to use those pets the tamer has to go on foot, and I can also assure that a dismounted tamer is extremely vulnerable, especially in a group pvp context.

I can easily make the list much longer if I try, hopefully you can see the point.

I could break down your list and possibly dispel some myths in the process, but I'm not in the mood, and I can assure you I could match every legitimate thing that you say pets can do with something equally legitimate that they can't do.

 

[WarUltima]

I can assure you, pvp damage caps do not apply to pets.

PvP dmg caps does apply, but AI PvP damage cap does. I can assure you that with 100DI Dragon Slayer Composite Bow in Enemy of One you AI any pet for no more than 35dmg

Bloody ridiculous statement. The only pet that is "vulnerable to nothing" is a mounted pet, and to use those pets the tamer has to go on foot, and I can also assure that a dismounted tamer is extremely vulnerable, especially in a group pvp context.

When tamer is on foot someone is on foot as well, pets will be doing their stuff while you are still shooting him. And why is it ok that a solo tamers should only be challenged with a group? You can play a striahgt archer and I will bring my dismount dread archer and I can assure you I wont be the one seeing monochrome screen.

I could break down your list and possibly dispel some myths in the process, but I'm not in the mood, and I can assure you I could match every legitimate thing that you say pets can do with something equally legitimate that they can't do.

Sure, and since a tamer can have 3 weapons attacking at the sametime how come I cant equip 3 weapons at the same time on my archer? and shoots 3 arrows at the sametime? How come pets can cast on the run queuing multiple spells at the sametime yet my mage not only has to be frozen in place but can also only cast 1 spell at a time?

There's no myth to be broken down. The difference is you are probably pure dismount archer, while some of us play every type of templates and simply knows what's OP and what's not.

 

[G.v.P]

Stick: If someone else resurrects your pet your pet suffers a full point (1.0) of skill loss. If your pet is resurrected by an npc vet your pet suffers two full points (2.0) of skill loss.

Way too strict, negates team play in PvP and PvM. Understandable against multi-account users, but too strict.

This isn't about team play, this is about making the current archer and dexxer tamer templates less powerful by giving them a choice of either adding vet to the template, or having a less powerful pet. Teamwork is still essential in group pvp with or without this.

You want to create balance by disregarding PvM and PvP situations in which other players could help one another. Your original basis of argument is that an archer/dexxer tamer is too powerful because they can go to their house and use a soulstone to get Vet, or use one in their backpack. Shouldn't you consider tackling soulstones, then, before you nerf team play? I mean really, talk about thinking too hard.

The perfect PvP tamer fix would be if players could no longer exploit to get pets back by logging in and out. Tamers aren't accountable for much anymore. Pets are bonded, pets can be saved, and stables give rez. It's pretty sad.

Oh yeah, plus pets can use owner's HLA/HLD etc.

Nonsense. The only thing I've seen remotely close to this is that the orc brute uses the owner's resisting spells skill and hides when the owner hides. No other pet takes any skills or modifiers from their owner. And both of us can make very long lists of what pets can and cannot do compared to what other weapons can or cannot do.

You're kidding right? I didn't mean the pets literally take the mods from the weapon and use them on their own. When the owner uses the mods their "hci/dci-less" pets benefit, simple as that. And I like that you have plenty of time to make a long list yet no time to address my list. Well, I addressed yours. Please let me know when my mage can do a 60 damage firebreath or when my my dexxer can have 170 dex.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

I like how you turned the entire debate toward greater dragons just because that was the one pet I happened to name. Tell me, how am I supposed to compete with a tamer? If you target the pet, the tamer attacks you. If you target the tamer, the pet attacks you. It's a lose lose situation no matter how you try to combat a tamer. Better yet, people are running around with these dismount archer tamers, which put you on foot and then sick a dread mare on you while spamming running shot. Pets can't outrun a player, but what's to stop the tamer from remounting and chasing you down and then putting the pet on you once again? What about when a mage has to stop to cast and a dread mare hits him for 35 damage plus whatever random spells it happens to cast? Anyone who knows anything about PvP knows what a joke tamers are. I'm sorry that you're so untalented at UO that you actually believe tamers take skill to play.

How can I possibly compete against 2 mages and an archer? On any template? basically this is your argument, and many people do it all the time. I do not disagree with everything you say, but really....how can you compete? A tamer alone (meaning no other players, not with out pets) is not nearly as hard as any combination of 2 players. I do not disagree that some damage from pets and other aspects could be toned down but your argument is still weak at best.

I can easily make the list much longer if I try, hopefully you can see the point.

You are still getting hung up on "one" possible template, I do not even remember the last time I ran into an archer/tamer.... I admit I only play 2 shards but still. I personally only use my tamer in one of two situations, one I know for a fact I am going to be out numbered or going to a champ spawn to defend it. Not "always" do I do this, but its the only time I ever use it. Of course I do not have archery on my tamer, so your arguments do not apply to me really.

The perfect PvP tamer fix would be if players could no longer exploit to get pets back by logging in and out. Tamers aren't accountable for much anymore. Pets are bonded, pets can be saved, and stables give rez. It's pretty sad.

Can agree with most of this, except would we be removing their ability to use summoning balls? Also what you propose has been knocked down by others in here as a "pvm nerf" of course could go with my modified idea but still people complain.

 

[I Play UO]

How can I possibly compete against 2 mages and an archer? On any template? basically this is your argument, and many people do it all the time. I do not disagree with everything you say, but really....how can you compete? A tamer alone (meaning no other players, not with out pets) is not nearly as hard as any combination of 2 players. I do not disagree that some damage from pets and other aspects could be toned down but your argument is still weak at best.

You don't think having to compare fighting one person the equivalent of fighting multiple people unbalanced? You just made my argument for me.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

You don't think having to compare fighting one person the equivalent of fighting multiple people unbalanced? You just made my argument for me.

No I did not, you asked how are you suppose to compete. So your argument is you can only go 1v1 or you being on the side of the bigger group? I made my argument based on yours, I did not make a comparison on my own. I also included the fact that a tamer with pets is no where near as hard as any combination of 2 players, well so long as the 2 players were decent to say the least, but then the argument is not how to kill crappy players is it? I mean surely you can compete with a terrible tamer....

Plus I never said anything about it being balanced, I even laid down the rules on which I would use my tamer, both of which being situations of balancing.

 

[Llewen]

I'll just repeat what I've said before. I hope the devs actually look at what is happening in game before they make decisions. If they do it should be pretty clear that there are some issues with archer tamers, and to a lesser extent dexxer tamers, but clearly there are not issues in pvp with other tamer templates.

Most of the changes being suggested in this thread are based on misinformation, and are designed to punish all tamers. The change I am suggesting is specifically targeted, and hopefully would address the real problem without destroying the viability of every tamer template in pvp, which is clearly what a few that have that have posted in this thread are looking for.

 

[Lynk]

I'll just repeat what I've said before.

Imagine my surprise.

Llewen regurgitating the same thing that she has posted 100 times before?

 

[Chardonnay]

Can i please have a bow that shoots out the same damage as a greater dragon please...

 

[Chardonnay]

I'll just repeat what I've said before. I hope the devs actually look at what is happening in game before they make decisions. If they do it should be pretty clear that there are some issues with archer tamers, and to a lesser extent dexxer tamers, but clearly there are not issues in pvp with other tamer templates.

Most of the changes being suggested in this thread are based on misinformation, and are designed to punish all tamers. The change I am suggesting is specifically targeted, and hopefully would address the real problem without destroying the viability of every tamer template in pvp, which is clearly what a few that have that have posted in this thread are looking for.

Also, i'll add for YOU if they hurt your poor tamer template you'll cancel your accounts and pout forever...

 

[Llewen]

Also, i'll add for YOU if they hurt your poor tamer template you'll cancel your accounts and pout forever...

If they remove tamers from pvp, yes I'll cancel my accounts, but pout forever? Not likely. There are plenty of other options out there, and more on the way.

 

[Sunchicken]

I agree that the tamer needs a good wacking with the nerf stick.
You can call me a tamer hater if you wish, but id rather be considered that than a player that needs to lean on a OBVIOUS crutch in order to pvp at a competative level.

The newish tamables have to much damage output for the amount of skill you have to invest to control them. Like someone said earlier tamers dont have the same responsibilities as they did before pet bonding and rezzes at stables.


I dont play a tamer, but i do have one tucked away that i COULD play if i wished to pvp in infant mode...

 

[Lynk]

I agree that the tamer needs a good wacking with the nerf stick.
You can call me a tamer hater if you wish, but id rather be considered that than a player that needs to lean on a OBVIOUS crutch in order to pvp at a competative level.

The newish tamables have to much damage output for the amount of skill you have to invest to control them. Like someone said earlier tamers dont have the same responsibilities as they did before pet bonding and rezzes at stables.


I dont play a tamer, but i do have one tucked away that i COULD play if i wished to pvp in infant mode...

BEWKATUUUUUUU

 

[Llewen]

You can call me a tamer hater if you wish, but id rather be considered that than a player that needs to lean on a OBVIOUS crutch in order to pvp at a competative level.

I dont play a tamer, but i do have one tucked away that i COULD play if i wished to pvp in infant mode...

No one needs to call you a tamer hater. Your post speaks for itself. And any time you want to haul out that infant mode tamer and have a go at me, I'd be happy to oblige. Although my guess is it's one of the templates I'm specifically targeting in the op, and that several others have mentioned, so it might actually be a challenge, but if it's a "real" tamer template...

 

[Vaelix]

I'll just repeat what I've said before.

As will I..

What other Skills besides Taming and Lore (Which doesnt even need to be 120) can effectively add 700 to 1400 *EXTRA SKILL* to your template in the form of 1 to 2 GM Pets.

A Tamer basically has 2100+ Total Skill on their template when fighting with 2 Pets.

 

[Sunchicken]

Mage eval tame lore vet resist. With a very crappy dread or an average cuside. Anytime you feel the need just bring it to great lakes ill take the time to reset my macros, but being as I find it extreamly boring I will not spend the money or time to transfer.

Say what you will about it requiring skill to play, but in generalities its probably the easiest template to get a kill with...

 

[G.v.P]

The perfect PvP tamer fix would be if players could no longer exploit to get pets back by logging in and out. Tamers aren't accountable for much anymore. Pets are bonded, pets can be saved, and stables give rez. It's pretty sad.

Can agree with most of this, except would we be removing their ability to use summoning balls? Also what you propose has been knocked down by others in here as a "pvm nerf" of course could go with my modified idea but still people complain.[/QUOTE]

No removing of pet balls -- after all, it takes effort to get said items, and they run on charges. Plus, they can't be used if the owner is dead. Big difference from logging in and out!

From my understanding, the intention of the log out auto-stable is to save players from losing their pets should they accidentally lose connection (unless the server goes down, then we're still screwed, unfortunately). Instead, people regularly use logging in and out to save any kind of pet, PvP or PvM, and the ones that are good at it can save anything from a regular horse to a greater dragon before the pet is killed.

Also, as far as modified ideas, the OP is only as good as the OP. Either the OP can be redrafted to reflect discussion, or it can stay the same. The OP doesn't address PvM at all right now, so that's what I responded to.

 

[Going Going Gone]

Just an idea, wouldn't it be fun if a tamer had to actually select wich toon he is controlling (him, pet 1, pet2, etc) and choose the spells that the selected pet will cast? All kill would be for melee, then select pet 1-- cast explosion, select pet 1 -- cast flame strike, select pet 2 -- cast poison, pet 2 -- special move bleed, etc.

Switch to yourself, cast heals, apply bandages, attack, etc. Then I think the pvpers that don't use pets would stop saying that all kill=no skill and it would refrain pets to cast firebreath+melee+2spells+special move in on combo for an insane amount of damage.

I know it's not very clear as written, but your thoughts?

 

[G.v.P]

Just an idea, wouldn't it be fun if a tamer had to actually select wich toon he is controlling

That's one of the reasons why Dragon Age is such an awesome single player game. But that kind of micro-control would not be good in UO because the ability to simultaneously control all entities would result in some seriously gimp situations. I guess it would depend on flip delay, how long before you could cycle through player options. But I can't see why someone wouldn't just play a stealther tamer in that case, and play a GDrag 24/7, hehe (depending on speed ... maybe a Cu would be better, overall). I wouldn't mind being able to control pets on a Halloween/Test shard kind of set-up though.

 

[Llewen]

Soooo, you will temporarily cancel all your accounts if they remove tamers from pvp but decide to come back because there's more to do? Why cancel them to begin with?

I'm not sure you understood what I am saying. I would cancel my accounts permanently. There are plenty of other MMO options out there. I can think of at least three that I find interesting and I'm sure there are more, and will be more, that I am unaware of.

 

[Going Going Gone]

What I mean is that the pets would do nothing unless he is told to.

In my scenario, the tamer would actually need to select wich pet he is controlling, select the spell he wants the pet to cast, select the target on wich the pet should cast. Meanwhile, he wouldn't be able to control what he is doing and neither what a second, third pet .... is doing.

The only order he could give to all pets are all kill, all follow, all stop... For all kill, the pets would attempt to melee the target, but they wouldn't cast spells or perform special moves.

To heal himself or a damaged pet, he would have to actually toggle on himself. And while he selected himself, the pets he controls would not cast anything.

 

[I Play UO]

I'm not sure you understood what I am saying. I would cancel my accounts permanently. There are plenty of other MMO options out there. I can think of at least three that I find interesting and I'm sure there are more, and will be more, that I am unaware of.

I know exactly what you're saying. You play the gimpest template in UO, and still struggle to compete in PvP. So you get on forums, whine and cry about it as much as you can hoping they change the game so that you can be better. You don't play a tamer because it's more fun than any other template, you play a tamer because it's easier. Please end the charade.

 

[Viper09]

I'm not sure you understood what I am saying. I would cancel my accounts permanently. There are plenty of other MMO options out there. I can think of at least three that I find interesting and I'm sure there are more, and will be more, that I am unaware of.

Oh, ha, yeah. Misread part of it.

 

[Llewen]

What I mean is that the pets would do nothing unless he is told to.

Well that's an interesting idea, and if it was done properly, it could be fun. However you might want to be careful what you ask for. A pet fully controlled by a player able to use complex macros to coordinate a pet's special attacks and spells could be a pretty frightening thing...