Nerfing Ranged Weapons?

[Old Man of UO]

I am confused as to why this is being done:

...
o Currently hit lower attack proc duration is 10 seconds for all weapons; ranged weapons will now have duration of 7.

o Currently hit lower defense proc duration is 8 seconds for all weapons; ranged weapons will now have duration of 5.

Why nerf ranged weapons? When has this been a problem in either PvP or PvM? It can be countered somewhat by increasing the HLA/HLD with imbuing, but that forces a reduction in something else.

 

[Chardonnay]

I am confused as to why this is being done:


Why nerf ranged weapons? When has this been a problem in either PvP or PvM? It can be countered somewhat by increasing the HLA/HLD with imbuing, but that forces a reduction in something else.

Just make a tamer...

 

[canary]

I am confused as to why this is being done:


Why nerf ranged weapons? When has this been a problem in either PvP or PvM? It can be countered somewhat by increasing the HLA/HLD with imbuing, but that forces a reduction in something else.

Because as a whole its safer shooting arrows from a distance than being in direct melee. And I say that playing an archer as one of my characters.

 

[Pinco]

that nerf is only 3 seconds difference between the melee attack... if your swing is 1.25 you still be able to use these mods...
less worst than people who has to rebuild his suit due to the magic reflection change...
probably this patch will made much people sad... let's enjoy the game until it works as well XD

 

[Xalan Dementia]

none of these changes are guarenteed. They are testing them out. also i dont think they are changing the way magic reflect alters resists just re adding the original form of Magic Reflection where it can reflect spells.

 

[Merion]

I don't like this either. HLD has already been nerfed passively, because with imbuing and the heaps of new artis with DCI, every mage and his brother is running 70 DCI, whereas it's extremely hard to get 70 DCI as a dexxer, because you also have to cram HCI on your suit.

Kinda twisted world where mages have better defenses than warriors. They should revamp metal armor. Maybe a DCI boost of 1% per Ringmail item, 2% for chainmail and 3% for platemail that doesn't count for imbuing?!

 

[Klapauc]

This may make a bigger difference for people that use mace and shield glasses with only 30% chance for hld. You will run out of hld quite often, we all know the uo rng.
It does even happen with max swingspeed on melee weapons now and then , you will notice this when fighting things that got high wrestling and you start to miss 3 times in a row.
So with 1.5 speed on soulglaive / archery weapon im sure people will notice the change. Not to mention the fact that the hld from the glasses need to work for gargoyles at all, seems like a long standing bug.

 

[Babble]

Just make a tamer...

*sends 5 rabbits after Chardonnay*
Go get him!

 

[AzSel]

none of these changes are guarenteed. They are testing them out. also i dont think they are changing the way magic reflect alters resists just re adding the original form of Magic Reflection where it can reflect spells.

No but the Magic Reflection will no longer be active once the "charges" are up, it goes away and you cant recast it until 30 seconds has passed.

 

[superstang]

I am confused as to why this is being done:


Why nerf ranged weapons? When has this been a problem in either PvP or PvM? It can be countered somewhat by increasing the HLA/HLD with imbuing, but that forces a reduction in something else.

Let's see:

Archers can chug pots while using a two-handed weapon at range.
Archers can fire on the run with a special move for decent damage with not one but two hit spells on your weapon.
Archers can dismount at range for huge damage.

It is about time there was a drawback for archers.

Even throwers get an advantage since they don't have to be standing in the fire to deal damage.

 

[puni666]

Aww a penalty for ranged dexer . Maybe it's to give some sort of balance to the chain running shot? Not really sure why anyone would make a big deal about this. You have more of a chance to keep procing HLD/HLA since if your target's on your screen you can shoot at him. Unlike a melee char that has to be right next to it's target to swing. Most archers swing at 1.25-1.75 so while the timer is ticking down on HLD/HLA you have 3 or 4 chances to reproc... what's with the Q.Q?

 

[EDA_GL]

I am confused as to why this is being done:


Why nerf ranged weapons? When has this been a problem in either PvP or PvM? It can be countered somewhat by increasing the HLA/HLD with imbuing, but that forces a reduction in something else.

IMO, they need to lower the HCI mod when 'running shot' is toggled.
Chances are your either beince chased, or chasing a moving target when using this. Except for an elite few, not all of the archers out there are Navy Seal sharpshooters.....

Just my .02

 

[Metalstorm]

It's the circle of things.

Archery was once all powerful then it was nerfed to uselessness.

Then it was made all powerful then castrated once again.

Then it became very powerful (though not quite all powerful) and now comes the tweaks once again.

So it goes, so it goes...

 

[ZidjiN]

I don't like this either. HLD has already been nerfed passively, because with imbuing and the heaps of new artis with DCI, every mage and his brother is running 70 DCI, whereas it's extremely hard to get 70 DCI as a dexxer, because you also have to cram HCI on your suit.

Kinda twisted world where mages have better defenses than warriors. They should revamp metal armor. Maybe a DCI boost of 1% per Ringmail item, 2% for chainmail and 3% for platemail that doesn't count for imbuing?!

Oh my God. Harder to get 70 DCI on a dexer since you need HCI as well? How about LRC that the mage need?
What a joke...
You can get DCI on: Ring, Brace, Headslot, Chests slot, Leggings, sleeves, Gloves, Half apron, Sash, Quiver, Robe, weapon, shield. Probably impossible to get 70 DCI. LOL.

Anyway Archers either need to be balanced(Nerfed) or melee dexers needs a buff. Today an archer is better then a melee in allmost everyway possible.
The only think Dexers have that archers dont is like bleed, Parry, evasion.
Archers gets distance, double hit spell, chug with twohander etc etc.

 

[Old Man of UO]

...
Anyway Archers either need to be balanced(Nerfed) or melee dexers needs a buff. Today an archer is better then a melee in allmost everyway possible.
The only think Dexers have that archers dont is like bleed, Parry, evasion.
Archers gets distance, double hit spell, chug with twohander etc etc.

I don't agree with this at all. My archer in no way can keep up with my Sampire on any of the high end content, in or out of a group. Going solo, there is no comparison at all.

What buffs are you looking for?? Dexxers don't need buffs to compete, unless you need some serious help with your melee characters.

 

[ZidjiN]

I don't agree with this at all. My archer in no way can keep up with my Sampire on any of the high end content, in or out of a group. Going solo, there is no comparison at all.

What buffs are you looking for?? Dexxers don't need buffs to compete, unless you need some serious help with your melee characters.

Are you stupid or what? Im not talking about PVM. Gtfo
And for the record, archers is increadibly strong in PVM as well. Might not be the best template to solo things on but in a group they could easely be one of the top damagers.


PS: When i think about it.... I agree with you, arachers is way to weak. Double hit spell, balanced bows, 180stam, 50+ SSI. This isnt nearly enough to make an archer good. I really think they need a buff, maybe add a passive bleed to movingshot so the target cant heal and maybe a slow as well, or a passive dismount. Something needs to be done about archers anyway cause they are to weak atm.
And yes will look into geting some help with my over powered melee templates. I mean the melee templates must be to strong now since everyone plays a melee dexers. Its sad that you never see any Archers in fell now days....

 

[Old Man of UO]

Are you stupid or what? Im not talking about PVM. Gtfo
And for the record, archers is increadibly strong in PVM as well. Might not be the best template to solo things on but in a group they could easely be one of the top damagers. ....

Chill, Dude. Start using decaf coffee.

I'm not stupid, I just don't agree with you. Anything you do to make a PvP change affects PvM also. PvP'ers seem to forge that, and think the whole game is about them.

 

[Fernadious]

I don't like this either. HLD has already been nerfed passively, because with imbuing and the heaps of new artis with DCI, every mage and his brother is running 70 DCI, whereas it's extremely hard to get 70 DCI as a dexxer, because you also have to cram HCI on your suit.

Just lol, you know mages had to get high DCI cause of HLD since 50/50 chance for dexxers was not enough in the first place it seems. So i do not know why say such things about DCI and HLD. Is a mage without weapon skill aka specials able to lower your HCI? Do not think so.

 

[ZidjiN]

Why nerf ranged weapons? When has this been a problem in either PvP or PvM?

That made me belive that you didnt see ranged weapons to be imbalanced in PvP.

Dexxers don't need buffs to compete

And that made me belive that you thought that dexers was onpar with archers.

 

[Xalan Dementia]

The hld/hla change on ranged weapons shouldnt be a big deal in pvm, if your worried about it then recreate one of your pvm chars on test center and try a fight where you think you need hld/hla. None of my pvm chars really use hld/hla, even soloers, because ive never really noticed it help in pvm.
My pvpers usually have at least one of the mods depending on that chars template and role.
Like the other pvp changes in this publish, it will be hard to see if any balance comes out of it until its live or people actively test it and are vocal about what they find.

Oh, and remember pub 69 isnt finalized so these changes may be altered or left out of final publish

 

[Old Man of UO]

The hld/hla change on ranged weapons shouldnt be a big deal in pvm, ...

Oh, and remember pub 69 isnt finalized so these changes may be altered or left out of final publish

No, it's not a HUGE deal, but it is still a nerf. The question is WHY is the change even needed? Who asked for it?

As for HLA I don't really need it on an archer anyway for PvM, but HLD is a different story. I do notice the difference when the HLD kicks in during PvP and do notice when it runs out.

And as a couple people have already pointed, no this isn't final and it's only on TC1. But if we don't give our feedback, how are the Developers going to know how we feel? Isn't that the point of making changes to TC, to give feedback?

 

[ZidjiN]

I dont really think this nerf will be very noticable in either PvP or PvM.

 

[Merion]

I don't know about you, but I find it a lot easier to make a perfect mage suit than dexxer suit. Because mages get free 21 DCI on the weapon whereas a dexxer needs to put other mods on there.

 

[Emosocial]

I have always maintained that ranged attacks should be less effective than melee if all other variables are exactly the same.


The fact that archers can hang back out of dangers way AND do as much damage AND chain specials like melee toons without having to stand right next to the target is what has made the class overpowered.

This change is a good beginning. The next step is to either reduce the archers total HCI if they are on the move (nerf running shot) and increase their HCI if they are stationary for a set period (2 or 3 seconds ?).

The last thing that would "fix" archery would be capping bows to either have velocity or have balance, but not both. Double hit spell + balance is garbage.

.02

 

[ZidjiN]

I have always maintained that ranged attacks should be less effective than melee if all other variables are exactly the same.


The fact that archers can hang back out of dangers way AND do as much damage AND chain specials like melee toons without having to stand right next to the target is what has made the class overpowered.

This change is a good beginning. The next step is to either reduce the archers total HCI if they are on the move (nerf running shot) and increase their HCI if they are stationary for a set period (2 or 3 seconds ?).

The last thing that would "fix" archery would be capping bows to either have velocity or have balance, but not both. Double hit spell + balance is garbage.

.02

Yeah i dont get why Archers get to have double hit spell if melee cant.
Balanced might be okey since there is no one handed alternative for archers but double hit spell and the possibilty to get HIGHER SSI then a melee is crap.

 

[Klapauc]

The hld/hla change on ranged weapons shouldnt be a big deal in pvm, if your worried about it then recreate one of your pvm chars on test center and try a fight where you think you need hld/hla. None of my pvm chars really use hld/hla, even soloers, because ive never really noticed it help in pvm.

Tbh i think you do not really know what you are talking about here. Hop on your sampire and fight Putrifier without hld and hla. If that is a bit hard, try a paragon balron. Against these 2 there is a clear difference with or without hla, good luck without hld.

Hla is not really used on ranged weapons in pvm, so there will be no problem with that.
Before they fixed throwing, my gargoyle at 120 throwing / 50 hci did miss a lot against certain things until hld did kick in. Now with faster weapon speed,its not that bad anymore.

Yes i think it is a nerf, not a hard nerf because it will only affect ranged chars.
There are a lot of players out there that do not care about pvp at all, and they are affected by an attempt to balance pvp. That is the thing that is wrong here.

 

[Old Man of UO]

Yeah i dont get why Archers get to have double hit spell if melee cant.
Balanced might be okey since there is no one handed alternative for archers but double hit spell and the possibilty to get HIGHER SSI then a melee is crap.

There is a SSI cap for everyone, which is 60SSI. And don't forget the artifact maul with 75SSI. It is NOT higher for archery than melee. In fact, the weapon swing speed for archery in slower in general (forget the repeating bow - it's as good as a dagger), so you can't reach the max speed with any bow except the two worst bows.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Aww a penalty for ranged dexer . Maybe it's to give some sort of balance to the chain running shot? Not really sure why anyone would make a big deal about this. You have more of a chance to keep procing HLD/HLA since if your target's on your screen you can shoot at him. Unlike a melee char that has to be right next to it's target to swing. Most archers swing at 1.25-1.75 so while the timer is ticking down on HLD/HLA you have 3 or 4 chances to reproc... what's with the Q.Q?

The fastest an archer can swing with a comp bow is 1.5 with 180+ stam and max ssi.

I figured you're not talking about a magic short since only a terrible pvper would use this? You're talking about AI/Moving shot, specials that are worth their weight, correct?

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

I don't like this either. HLD has already been nerfed passively, because with imbuing and the heaps of new artis with DCI, every mage and his brother is running 70 DCI, whereas it's extremely hard to get 70 DCI as a dexxer, because you also have to cram HCI on your suit.

Kinda twisted world where mages have better defenses than warriors. They should revamp metal armor. Maybe a DCI boost of 1% per Ringmail item, 2% for chainmail and 3% for platemail that doesn't count for imbuing?!

I guess you didnt get the memo.

In addition to dci mages in pvp also MUST include...
1) LRC
2) LMC
3) MR
4) HPI
5) 2/6 cast
6) +20 skill jewels to use mage wep
7) SDI

on the flip side dexxers only need...
1) hci
2) dci
3) lmc

Now please, tell me how it is so easy for a mage to add 70 dci to their temp...hell, I dont even have 70 dci.

With regards to ranged weps, when a char has the ability to hit you over and over again without missing...yes, something needs to be fixed. In this case they only lowered the timer...which I doubt will help much considering HLD/HLA can be reset with just one more shot.

 

[Vexxed]

Hmm..... someone said they did something to "FIX" the Magic arrow / Nether Bolt Spam... I haven't had a chance to log on TC & play with it so could someone mention what this is??? (or even if they did something to it?)

 

[Old Man of UO]

... With regards to ranged weps, when a char has the ability to hit you over and over again without missing...yes, something needs to be fixed. ...

Aren't all magic spells ranged weapons that hit 100% of the time? There isn't a bow out there that does that - regardless of your claim, bows do miss, while spells don't.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

Aren't all magic spells ranged weapons that hit 100% of the time? There isn't a bow out there that does that - regardless of your claim, bows do miss, while spells don't.

Can a shot be disrupted? Can you cast a spell while moving? Can you hit your target three times with one spell? Since your PvP knowledge is very little, I will tell you the answer to these questions is no.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Aren't all magic spells ranged weapons that hit 100% of the time? There isn't a bow out there that does that - regardless of your claim, bows do miss, while spells don't.

Spells take time to cast and can be interrupted...weps cannot (especially when people use create food to bypass wait timers on specials). Add HLD and the person can hit you every time...all the time.

 

[Vyal]

Archers can't hit jack.

Think about what you people are talking about for a minute. Archers are terrible at hitting anything. You get lucky if you meet someone you can even hit 3 times in a row....

 

[Old Man of UO]

Can a shot be disrupted? Can you cast a spell while moving? Can you hit your target three times with one spell? Since your PvP knowledge is very little, I will tell you the answer to these questions is no.

All a red herring, and you know it, so don't post stupid questions.

You CAN prevent your spells from being disrupted, use protection. And it is rare to get hit with 3 effects at once from a bow, but you can get 3 spell hits in the time it takes the bow to "reload" for a second shot. So in effect, they are about the same.

 

[Old Man of UO]

Spells take time to cast and can be interrupted...weps cannot (especially when people use create food to bypass wait timers on specials). Add HLD and the person can hit you every time...all the time.

You can prevent your spells from being interrupted, and ranged weapons take a LOT longer to "cast" on average. Even with HLD, you can prevent it from hitting every time.

*EDIT*
Question for you : On average, one versus one, Mage versus Archer, who wins?

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

You can prevent your spells from being interrupted, and ranged weapons take a LOT longer to "cast" on average. Even with HLD, you can prevent it from hitting every time.

*EDIT*
Question for you : On average, one versus one, Mage versus Archer, who wins?

lol...as others have mentioned...you have a very weak grasp on *good* pvp.

1) protection casting sucks, and cannot kill anyone adept enough at pvp.
2) you cannot prevent HLD from going off, and even with 70 dci the RNG is too forgiving for distance shots.

answer: good mage vs. good decked out archer/fencer...its a toss up. i would give the archer the benefit of the doubt considering bandages CANNOT be interrupted. (they can slip but they ALWAYS work)

 

[Old Man of UO]

lol...as others have mentioned...you have a very weak grasp on *good* pvp.

1) protection casting sucks, and cannot kill anyone adept enough at pvp.
2) you cannot prevent HLD from going off, and even with 70 dci the RNG is too forgiving for distance shots.

answer: good mage vs. good decked out archer/fencer...its a toss up. i would give the archer the benefit of the doubt considering bandages CANNOT be interrupted. (they can slip but they ALWAYS work)

*smiles to see you siding with Jax-boy - birds of a feather*

I do know that protection casting "sucks" and I don't use it. That wasn't the point; the point was you can choose to not have your spells interrupted, but there is a trade-off. You just want to twist the facts.

You can pretty much negate the HLD with DCI. The RNG works both ways - that's a poor argument on your part.

As far as mage versus archer - it's a tie. That's the point, it could go either way. That means it's balanced. As far as not interrupting the archer, the archer does not have a way to freeze your opponent with a spell like a mage can. It's pretty even now, but won't be if you keep nerfing ranged weapons.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

*smiles to see you siding with Jax-boy - birds of a feather*

or perhaps I think you are both idiots, just he is right on this one so I support his post.

I do know that protection casting "sucks" and I don't use it. That wasn't the point; the point was you can choose to not have your spells interrupted, but there is a trade-off. You just want to twist the facts.

The point is killing someone, a mage cannot do that in protection...I was not twisting anything. If you do not kill your opponent...you win nothing.

You can pretty much negate the HLD with DCI. The RNG works both ways - that's a poor argument on your part.

No, its not a poor arguement. Shoot a guildie 1000 times with them at 70 dci, you with dbl HLD (wep/glasses)...then come tell me how wrong I am. Until then, you really don't have a pot to **** in.

How does the RNG help the mage?

As far as mage versus archer - it's a tie. That's the point, it could go either way. That means it's balanced. As far as not interrupting the archer, the archer does not have a way to freeze your opponent with a spell like a mage can. It's pretty even now, but won't be if you keep nerfing ranged weapons.

Wow...you really are off your rocker. I have died more to archers in this game than to mages...what does that tell you? 90% of these archers were actually only mediocre players...what does that tell you of balance?

Any you think archers don't have para shot? BTW, paralyze DOES NOT WORK AGAINST 120 RESIST...PARA SHOT DOES!

Nerfing mage weps? This isn't a nerf...its an adjustment. am guessing you havent even been to test center to check things out.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

All a red herring, and you know it, so don't post stupid questions.

You CAN prevent your spells from being disrupted, use protection. And it is rare to get hit with 3 effects at once from a bow, but you can get 3 spell hits in the time it takes the bow to "reload" for a second shot. So in effect, they are about the same.

You can't even cast harm 3 times before a bow swings. 40% hit fireball and 40% hit velocity on the same bow means there is an 80% chance one hit spell goes off and a 16% chance both of them go off. Not exactly a rare occurrence.

 

[Old Man of UO]

...
How does the RNG help the mage?

RNG goes both ways, with hits and misses. It also calculates damage on each spell and hit. Everyone benefits or loses to the RNG.

... Wow...you really are off your rocker. I have died more to archers in this game than to mages...what does that tell you? 90% of these archers were actually only mediocre players...what does that tell you of balance?...

It tells me you have poor tactics against archers, and should probably try something else.

... Nerfing mage weps? This isn't a nerf...its an adjustment. am guessing you havent even been to test center to check things out.

Just back from TC. Any downward adjustment is a nerf - period. I don't really depend on HLD, but you can tell the difference. Most of my bows for PvM, I'll just lower the DI and raise the HLD to adjust. But ya, there is a difference and it is a nerf.

 

[Old Man of UO]

You can't even cast harm 3 times before a bow swings. 40% hit fireball and 40% hit velocity on the same bow means there is an 80% chance one hit spell goes off and a 16% chance both of them go off. Not exactly a rare occurrence.

So, how fast can you precast explosion or plague spell, then spam MA/NB from scrolls, while using a healing stone?

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Spells take time to cast and can be interrupted...weps cannot (especially when people use create food to bypass wait timers on specials). Add HLD and the person can hit you every time...all the time.

Creating food just makes you switching weps faster, it has nothing to do with "wait timers on specials".

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

So, how fast can you precast explosion or plague spell, then spam MA/NB from scrolls, while using a healing stone?

This has relevance how?

 

[puni666]

The fastest an archer can swing with a comp bow is 1.5 with 180+ stam and max ssi.

I figured you're not talking about a magic short since only a terrible pvper would use this? You're talking about AI/Moving shot, specials that are worth their weight, correct?

1.25 is possible with a comp. One of the daynamo's helms with 8 stam on it will get you to that speed.

Anyways the point still stand that the proc's will pretty much remain a constant thing no matter the duration it's just with this change you might not have HLD/HLA effects on you for 100% of the time from an archer... hmm maybe 75%-90% of the time. Waa..

If people were smart they'd use a cyclone. It's easier to cap out the SSI and the base damage of the running shots is the same as a comp bow. Possibly more potent if you include the racial DI that you get from taking damage.

 

[WarUltima]

1.25 is possible with a comp.

No you have no clue what you are talking about.

At 180 stam, 60ssi (cap), comp bow swings at 1.5s

You need to have at least 210 stam, and at least 60ssi to hit the 1.25 swing with a comp. How are you going to put 210 stam on your character?

Again, swinging a comp at 1.25 is technically impossible in current Ultima Online.

 

[Emosocial]

Aren't all magic spells ranged weapons that hit 100% of the time? There isn't a bow out there that does that - regardless of your claim, bows do miss, while spells don't.

Dont we run out of mana ? Thats why we hit 100% of the time. When you stop firing altogether when you run out of mana then we can talk.

Savvy ?

 

[Speaking the Truth]

No you have no clue what you are talking about.

At 180 stam, 60ssi (cap), comp bow swings at 1.5s

You need to have at least 210 stam, and at least 60ssi to hit the 1.25 swing with a comp. How are you going to put 210 stam on your character?

Again, swinging a comp at 1.25 is technically impossible in current Ultima Online.

Hyatt this is what I was talking about. The fastest you can go no matter what with a comp is 1.5 He went into more detail for me, but he's correct.

 

[Emosocial]

No, it's not a HUGE deal, but it is still a nerf. The question is WHY is the change even needed? Who asked for it?

It has been needed since archers were turned into godmode 4 years ago when I last quit playing.

To answer your second question; every who has not played an archer has been asking for archery nerfs for years now.

its about damn time.

 

[Lorax_Pacific]

I love playing my archer Lorax, but they have nerfed archery so much over the last 12 years I have really gave up. Just one more reason to not play an archer. My opinion is that archery should not have lower HLA and HLD time periods compared with melee. Those lower time periods will make it impossible to switch weapons and hit while the opponent is affected by lower defense or lower attack. The excuse that an archer can always swing at 180 stamina is wrong and on average with low stamina a swing speed is about 2.5 seconds. If this is imposed then archery will have the following:
*lowest leeches
*slowest weapons
*practically always two handed
*shortest duration procs
*cannot bushido parry
*fewest specials
*useless poison hit
*and damage per second at about 2/3'rds the dps of most melee weapons.

Pretty much I just use my sampire now and my fisherman.

-Lorax