Hit Lower Defence needs to be nerfed

[puni666]

its not that i dont use the specials from wrestling its just they never go off, i try just about everytime i fight a dexor to use my specials and i just dont hit them...maybe 5% of the time it works. i dont have room on my mage suit for HLD, HCI, HLA or massive dex. The problem with the wrestle specials is they are not effective enough without actully becoming a dexor.

And yes the mystic bushido gimps need to go to.

I dunno get a HCI/DCI shield, or a bokuto SC mage weap with HLA on it, that would drop there HCI down by 25%.

If you're human which I'm not sure if you are or not, but you get a racial ability to parry 5% of the time with either a weapon or shield from JoAT. Every little bit helps.

 

[Lorax_Pacific]

Ok well you need to paralyze them and kill them with a spell delay combo before they hit you. Maybe you are concerning yourself too much with defense and need to improve your offense.

-Lorax

 

[Wojoe]

I dunno get a HCI/DCI shield, or a bokuto SC mage weap with HLA on it, that would drop there HCI down by 25%.

If you're human which I'm not sure if you are or not, but you get a racial ability to parry 5% of the time with either a weapon or shield from JoAT. Every little bit helps.

I tried that, problem is you need high dex for that to work and i dont have room for high dex and for defence i have wrestle, maybe wrestle needs to be adjusted.

 

[Gellor]

Wrestle is fine for a DCI stacked mage... unless the Dev's killed it in the last six months.

When I played, I ran 70 DCI with 120 wrestle on a few shards. I got hit ~50% of the time usually. Wrestle worked fine as expected.

On my home shard, I ran 70 DCI with 120 wrestle and parry... I had approximately 60 dex. I got hit maybe 1 in 4 times.

HLD never made a difference as far as I could tell. Even after the message showed up, I never noticed an increase in hits.

With that said, there were a very few people who "owned" the random number generated at hit WELL above that. Not everytime but I'd say 7 or 8 times out of 10.

I'd say you are just having some bad luck with the RNG, something in your template is conflicting, or something in your equipment isn't jibbing.

 

[Harlequin]

On the other hand, I have also seen posts calling for DCI to be nerfed coz 1 player complains that he can't hit the another guy.

The thing about the bloody RNG is that people pay more attention to it during streaks of unlucky rolls that happen to themselves. So these situations tend to stand out. You would rarely notice it if the other guy missed you 3 out of 4 times would you? But that will be noticeable to the other guy and he'll think that DCI is overpowered.

Unless the recent patch broke something, the DCI, HCI and HLD, HLA properties themselves are pretty balanced.

Over capping DCI will make you HLD proof. HCI can similarly be countered by HLA. The problem for battle btwn warriors and mages in this case is like what War mentioned, mages don't have a way to deal hit proc effect (and specials) like HLA with spellcasting. Though most warriors would also overcap their HCI against this (and moving shot penalties).

Of course, some may argue that this balances out as spells do not miss. Against this, I would argue that spell casting requires you to stand in 1 spot, every swing requires mana, you can be interrupted, no autodefend etc.

I would gladly trade that never never-miss ability (ie give spells a chance to miss), to be able to move while casting, that plus weapon specials to be applied to spells, plus hit proc effects.


Back to the OP's issue with being hit. The math of it is:
You and your opponent have 120 weaponskill each, that makes your chance to hit each other 50/50.

Your 70 DCI renders you HLD proof. Hit chance still 50/50. (Without HLD proofing, you will be hit more that 70 percent of the time).

He has max HCI (45, assuming archer overcaps HCI to negate moving shot penalty) against your max DCI (45). Hit chance still 50/50.

So even with your 120 wrestling and max DCI, he still has a 50 percent chance to hit you. Having him hit you 5 times consecutively is like flipping a coin 5 times and have it come out heads all 5 times. It is easily possible. And more frequently than you think. Only over a large sampling will you see that you will miss once for everytime you hit.

To see for yourself, get your guildie, create 2 chars with 120 weaponskill/wrestling on test. You with 45 HCI 50 HLA weapon and your friend with with 70 DCI, then test trying to hit your guildie for an hour. You will notice there are streaks where you miss several times in a row, and streaks where you hit several times in a row.

 

[Wojoe]

On the other hand, I have also seen posts calling for DCI to be nerfed coz 1 player complains that he can't hit the another guy.

The the about the bloody RNG is that people pay more attention to it during streaks of unlucky rolls that happen to themselves. So these situations tend to stand out. You would rarely notice it if the other guy missed you 3 out of 4 times would you? But that will be noticeable to the other guy and he'll think that DCI is overpowered.

Unless the recent patch broke something, DCI, HCI and HLD, HLA properties themselves are pretty balanced.

Over capping DCI will make you HLD proof. HCI can similarly be countered by HLA. The problem for battle btwn warriors and mages in this case is like what War mentioned, mages don't have a way to deal hit proc effect (and specials) like HLA with spellcasting. Though most warriors would also overcap their HCI against this (and moving shot penalties).

Of course, some may argue that this balances out as spells do not miss. Against this, I would argue that spell casting requires you to stand in 1 spot, every swing requires mana, you can be interrupted, no autodefend etc.

I would gladly trade that never never-miss ability (ie give spells a chance to miss), to be able to move while casting, that plus weapon specials to be applied to spells, plus hit proc effects.


Back to the OP's issue with being hit. The math of it is:
You and your opponent have 120 weaponskill each, that makes your chance to hit each other 50/50.

Your 70 DCI renders you HLD proof. Hit chance still 50/50. (Without HLD proofing, you will be hit more that 70 percent of the time).

He has max HCI (45, assuming archer overcaps HCI to negate moving shot penalty) against your max DCI (45). Hit chance still 50/50.

So even with your 120 wrestling and max DCI, he still has a 50 percent chance to hit you. Having him hit you 5 times consecutively is like flipping a coin 5 times and have it come out heads all 5 times. It easily possible. And more frequently than you think. Only over a large sampling will you see that you will miss once for everytime you hit.

To see for yourself, get your guildie, create 2 chars with 120 weaponskill/wrestling on test. You with 45 HCI 50 HLA weapon and your friend with with 70 DCI, then test trying to hit your guildie for an hour. You will notice there are streaks where you miss several times in a row, and streaks where you hit several times in a row.

"Over capping DCI will make you HLD proof"

This is not the case i get hit more then 70% of the time, i get hit almost 100% of the time so it must be broken...i have the message your defence chance has returned to normal everytime. People will say its just a message but i know its not true.

my suit is 5*70, I have 120 wrestle and 70 dci. my dex is 35

thanks for trying to help

One other thing...if i do nothing but cast magic arrow, the dexor is still able to run away everytime

 

[Skrag]

This is not the case i get hit more then 70% of the time, i get hit almost 100% of the time so it must be broken

No you don't. The game doesn't magically work different for you than it does for everyone else. You're just a crybaby.

 

[Luke Carjacker]

No you don't. The game doesn't magically work different for you than it does for everyone else. You're just a crybaby.

Heh, I wanted to say that. Unless that guy has some unmentioned holes in his equipment setup, his claims of "i get hit 100%" are just whiney BS.

 

[Harlequin]

This is not the case i get hit more then 70% of the time, i get hit almost 100% of the time so it must be broken...i have the message your defence chance has returned to normal everytime. People will say its just a message but i know its not true.

Firstly, just to clarify - HLD works only after you have been hit. Having HLD on a weapon doesn't automatically lower your DCI. And even after you are hit by a HLD weapon, the effect does not automatically go off. 50 HLD on means there is a 50 percent chance of it taking effect.

Now, let us look at your observations in a logical manner. The very first hit is never modified by HLD effect. If you are getting hit everytime on the first shot, it has nothing to do with HLD.

Next, you noticed everytime it says your defenses has returned to normal, and you are still getting hit. Returning to normal means, the HLD effect has already worn off, you are no longer under HLD. And you are still getting hit.

Also, if the effects actually wears off, that mean you did not get hit again in the interim. Is this because you stayed out of range or is this because your opponent missed? Or he hit you, but you were lucky enough not to get re-proc'd?

Truthfully I can't remember what happens when you get re-proc'd by HLD, does the timer get extended? Does the return to normal message even comes up? Can anyone confirm?

I am not saying that your did not get hit more than you should, but looking at the above, my suspicion is that your problem does not lie with HLD but something else. So asking for HLD to be nerfed may not solve your problem.

What items are you getting your 70 DCI from?

One other thing...if i do nothing but cast magic arrow, the dexor is still able to run away everytime

Yes, that's due to the min 0.25(?) seconds delay where you absolutely have to stand still in order to cast, even with 2/6 casting. Kinda sucks, which is why I said I'd rather have a chance that my spells miss and be able to cast while moving. The delay was a way to balance mages against other templates in the early days of machine gun fireballs. But might not be applicable now.

 

[Merion]

This is not the case i get hit more then 70% of the time, i get hit almost 100% of the time so it must be broken

No you don't. The game doesn't magically work different for you than it does for everyone else. You're just a crybaby.

This!

So can we all agree that the OP ignores several perfectly polite explanations of the game mechanics and made a jackass of himself in the further thread and then close this thread that's going nowhere?!

 

[Widow Maker]

Only one thing to say to the OP:

 

[WarUltima]

Thanks Harlequin for noticing the points that I am making. Mages are definitely NOT the majority rightnow due to many reasons. And rarely any dexer would stack their HCI to 70 yet most serious mages sometimes HAVE TO have 70dci just because some dexer with a fast weapon with "a few points" in HLD. When HLD proc it's almost constant effect. FACT: Mages do NOT have a reliable mean to proc HLA.

As the comment on mages are more flexible in terms of skill choices I have to disagree.

Necromancy, Mysticism, Chivalry, Bushido, Ninjitsu, as well as taming are all viable (and most skills can only be used to the max capability BY A DEXER) when used by dexers. Mages only have necro and mysticism that was DESIGNED with mages in mind. Just because you want to gimp your dexers up and wants to have chiv + myst + ninji + necro + bushido on same dexer template doesnt mean that dexer templates are "cramped". You have a lot more skill choices which means a lot more flexible.

I am not saying HLD should be nerfed just stating some facts that mages can NOT reliably apply HLA to counter dexers' HCI yet every dexers and their grandma has some HLD that can be applied reliably via their main form of attack... heck even their specials can proc HLD.

To the OP: I think you just hit a unlucky streak. Because HLD should have no effect on you but I understand. With all the hit fireball weapons you feel like you are getting DISRUPTED all the time. Which is because the delayed fireball proc. Realistically ONE successful hit + fireball is essentially TWO disrupts. Mathmatically if the dexer has 50% hit fireball, he should hit you 50% of the time BUT HE WILL DISRUPT YOU 62.5% OF THE TIME. This is due to hit fireball takes effect (and disrupt) once every 2 successful hits on average.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[G.v.P]

Only problem i see is mages needs to stack their DCI up to 70 while dexers doesnt have to have anything more than 45 HCI

I think the OP's question has to be how effective is DCI, because as of now, DCI is so easy to get. Two years ago someone could complain about needing to stack DCI, but I mean, really, the new items we got from High Seas practically take out all the guess work. Jewels that give 6/2 30 DCI? Check. Sash that gives 5 DCI, no dur? Check. The devs have taken every opportunity to give us more DCI items.

Anyway, other than spell plague, I think PvP is generally doing fine. Roach still works, and dexxers are forever limited by range. Now archers, that's another story. They still have moving shot and all that jazz, and remain pretty gimp.

Be interesting if para blow wres move was replaced by a HLA move though ...

 

[Annonymous User]

Well since you are the only person who seems to have an issue with this, I'm gonna have to throw it out that you are just unlucky.

And since I know you wont accept that ill play devil's advocate and say MAYBE it has something to do with the fact that you use wrestling rather than a weapon like the vast majority of people, and maybe theres something in that.

Are there any other people who use wrestling rather than a mage weapon or weapon skill that can comment?

people that like mage weapons confuse me, what do you do when you get disarmed and an archer spams moving shot on you to death, he has 100% chance to hit you when you have 0 % weapon skill because you are disarmed. Thats why some mages go with wrestling, allowing us to disarm a dexer for a few seconds and maybe get a para blow off. Although it would seem the specials never go off now days

 

[WarUltima]

Although it would seem the specials never go off now days

It's because all dexers runs at least 45 dci as well. Mages rarely have room for HCI stacking. Most mages have 0 hci vs dexer's 45 dci which means the mage will hit 27.5% of the time with wrestling. Punch is a "slow swing weapon". To add more salt to the wound there's no ssi to increase wrestling speed and mages generally has low dex. AND to add soy sauce to the wound (soy sauce fking hurts) when you are attempting to disarm/para you have to STOP CASTING COMPLETELY.

So mathematically you as a mage only has 27.5% chance to disarm a dexer, and you can only swing your punch once every 2.5 second and during the period you are NOT attacking and you are NOT healing. As a mage you would probably be better off 99% of the time casting instead of trying to MELEE wrestle a dexer that can kill you in 3 hits within 2.5 seconds (1st hit is instant). It's simple math, simple facts and simple UO reality.

Only advantage wrestling has is disarm proof, so those cookie cutter disarm archers cant just disarm AI then moving shot you down. And there are a lot more disadvantages IMO, without using a mage weapon you lose out on 15% DCI and will cost 120 additional skill points in your template.

 

[Warpig Inc]

Load of offence makes for bad defence. Been out the PVP sceen for a bit, just never hear the eval & anat combo mentioned much. Not that UOstratics is up to date or on the new that much.

The Function of Anatomy
On each successful hit with a weapon during combat, a passive check is made to your anatomy skill. If successful, you add up to 65% to the damage depending on your skill level.
Anatomy plays a large role in determining the amount of damage healed when using the Healing skill.
At a skill level of 65 you will be able to see other peoples stamina level as a percentage.
Having a high Anatomy and Evaluate Intelligence skill helps dodging blows in empty-handed combat.

Wrestle 120 for disarm is a temp fix to being hit for load of skill points. There is the unwritten that wrestle helps prevent outside effects fizzing casting.

It really is how best to fit 10 gal of want into a 5 gal sheet bucket when it comes to PVP.

 

[Wojoe]

Thanks for all the replys....

I did some testing this morning and i think i understand the problem now...If i stand still after the first hit the dexor misses sometimes but if i move a couple tiles he hits 100% of the time...tested this for a hour..so how do you defend verse this? PVP is fluid, you cant just stand still...

Again thanks for all your help

 

[Lynk]

I was fighting you last night, and I missed 8 times in a row.

Do I come here and cry and say HCI needs a boost?

No. Sometimes you get a ****ty roll of the dice, and sometimes you get a good one.

The bad ones stick out and you remember them, and in your case you come to the forums and cry about it.

 

[Sunchicken]

Inquis, crimson, orny ep ring, dci glasses

Parry is pretty easy to pull off on a mage...

I do however know how you feel. I had a few rounds with puny at yew gate a couple weeks ago and it seem i was getting pummeled more than normal, but thats what happens when you play a rng game. Some times you just get **** on...

 

[[JD]]

i tested a few months back and HLD removes 25 DCI, not 25%. 70-25=45 which is the cap and why people say 70 dci makes you "HLD proof"

however HLD never seems to work for me even when I overcap. there are certain archers who run HLD on their bow and on the M&S who just hit me over and over again. maybe its bugged and needs to be fixed. or its just RNG and NOTHING needs to be done. in any case there is no "nerf" needed.

melees need to overcap also as they fight other melees.

gargs could throw HLA on a boomerang, but the slow swing speed combined with no HCI would make it not that great.

ive heard wrestlers can use a 1 handed UBWS fast weapon to increase swing speed and wrestle damage. and if you are disarmed you still have wrestle. but getting the mods on there would be interesting. ubws, sc, fc1, HLA, etc ... you'd have to imbue 3fc on your suit, like Orny + 1fc ring.

 

[puni666]

I was fighting you last night, and I missed 8 times in a row.

Do I come here and cry and say HCI needs a boost?

No. Sometimes you get a ****ty roll of the dice, and sometimes you get a good one.

The bad ones stick out and you remember them, and in your case you come to the forums and cry about it.

Yeah, much like poisons sticking at the perfect inopportune time in a duel or on the field. Even with 120 resists you still get screwed a lot.

 

[Warpig Inc]

That neg FC lowers your cap 2FC as a mage to 1FC, and is not recoverable by adding more FC.

 

[Lord Gareth]

Thanks for all the replys....

I did some testing this morning and i think i understand the problem now...If i stand still after the first hit the dexor misses sometimes but if i move a couple tiles he hits 100% of the time...tested this for a hour..so how do you defend verse this? PVP is fluid, you cant just stand still...

Again thanks for all your help

Will teleporting count as moving and allow the dexer to land hits 100% of the time, or is that for running/walking?

I see allot of the PvPers just doing teleport, teleport, teleport, teleport to get away.

 

[Xalan Dementia]

The Whine skill that most low end pvpers have 120 in needs nerfed.

Mages have tons of Debuff spells at thier disposal Poison,Curse,Weaken,Clumsy,mana vamp,mana drain etc
Dexers have what? HLD, HLA,Poison, Mortal, and the new ones like fatigue, drain etc (which still seem weak and not working right in pvp)
We have resisting spells and evasion to defend against mage debuffs, we have DCI and parry to defend against dexer debuffs. Seems kinda even to me. You get rocked by a HCI dexer? get a new suit, maybe new template....or as I always say ADAPT! PVP evolves, you cant rock the same template forever.

 

[Ishamel_Legends]

Will teleporting count as moving and allow the dexer to land hits 100% of the time, or is that for running/walking?

I see allot of the PvPers just doing teleport, teleport, teleport, teleport to get away.

PvP mages teleport when they get dismounted to get distance or when they are throwing a bola and have to be on foot to stay close enough to the target to dismount them. If your very good with your teles you can keep up with a mounted target.