Plan to revive Detectives...

[Shinobi]

After reading some of the thread on bounty hunters, i got an idea for detectives.

Players recently robbed can hire a detective to retrieve the item stolen. A new kind of deed is used to do this.

When activating a deed, it will list the items stolen from you in the past hour. Select the item you wish to hire a detective to track down.

The victim must know the name of the thief that robbed them. The detective must use forensic eval on the thief, and if successful, it will confirm that this thief is the man being hunted. If the thief was in disguise, then the detective needs to do some real work, or forensic eval every thief possible.

A deed can only be issued by the victim to ONE detective of their choosing. One deed per stolen item. After an item is stolen, the victim has one real hour to find a deed (which can be bought off npc vendors), then issue it to a detective. A detective must have 80 forensic eval to accept cases.

When a detective accepts a case, it is active for 2 in-game in-felucca hours based on the thief. This also means that a stolen item cannot be sold for 2 in-game hours, since it is "hot" (one hour if the victim does not issue a deed in time). If one real life week passes without a conclusion, the deed expires and the Thief Status reads "Failed to Locate". The detective can keep the deed as a reminder of his failure.

Upon hunting down a thief, you double click the deed, and target the thief. A deed appears on the thief's screen, much like when a house owner offers another player a vendor rental contract. The deed is an admission of guilt. It has the name of the victim, the name of the hired detective, the item stolen, a spot for a signature, and the Thief Status. The thief has two options:

Click the designated button to sign admission (clicking anywhere on the deed to sign could lead to accidental admission, which is why i said "button")

Click the designated button to refuse


If signed, the stolen item is returned to the original victim's backpack. If the victim is unable to receive due to being logged off, it goes to the detective. The detective then returns it to the victim himself, building trust (as with brokers). The more trustworthy a detective is, the more cases he'll be offered. The victim gets his item back, and the detective has an admission of guilt deed as a trophy, with the signature for all to see.

Most likely, a thief will choose the hard way out. If the thief denies his guilt, he clicks Refuse. The deed closes from the screen, and the thief auto-flags to the detective only, allowing for an attack. If the detective manages to kill the thief, the item is returned. If the thief manages to escape conflict, he gets away with the item, and the case is closed.

The deed has a Thief Status section on it. While the thief is online and in felucca, it reads "At Large". While he is online in another area, it says "Laying Low". While offline, it reads "Unknown".

If the time limit runs out on a deed, it will read "Failed to Locate". If the thief admits guilt, it reads "Acquitted". If the thief refuses, then is killed, it reads "Deceased". If he refuses, but escapes, it reads "Escaped".

Let me know what you guys think.

P.S. All detectives check out the Scout of the Month post in the Scout forum...inquis to the first to catch me.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

I think something should be done to players that rob players by joining guilds or using guilds and then rob from them in trammel. And then disappear.

Think about it.

 

[Taylor]

I like the idea in general, Shinobi, but what's to keep a thief from stealing an item, then immediately logging for hours? A detective cannot be signed on day and night waiting for a thief to become "at large."

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

I always get a good chuckle out of threads like these. They can't even keep the current game mechanics working and you expect them to develop these complex systems just so that the 3 people who actually care about detectives in UO can be satisfied? I suggest you put it in the UO developer suggestion box.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Hey Shinobi, it was nice to see see you at the other place. ...la

 

[Slickjack]

The only thing I'd like to see in your request is a "rating system" for the detective and thief that rise and fall in their ranks as they succeed in their pursuits... it could be thru the title menu as already instituted in-game ... i.e. The Detective Lykor or The Slippery Thief Rico, so on and so forth with rising titles with increasing success in finding thieves or alluding detectives......


They are using a "bounty board" with Pirates, why not use this new system to incorporate thieves?

 

[Shinobi]

It would work for trammel steals as well. Most thieves live in fel, if anything, catch them as they recall to their house and present them with the deed.

Valor, that's a good point, even though the time limit is based off of the thief's in-game/felucca time (i mean if the thief wants to stay offline a whole week for one item, so be it). Maybe there can be up to 3 detectives on a case at a time. Regardless, it still gives the victim a chance at getting the item back, unlike the current situation.

This isn't a massive change, it probably wouldn't even be a big enough change to be its own booster. If they can fix water movement, they can do anything.

A board wouldn't work. It could, but i think it would be best for a player to choose a detective, and for the detective to literally be hired onto a case. Who knows, if a detective is good enough, and trustworthy enough, he could even start charging a fee. Maybe 1/4 the value of the lost item? It'd be the detective's choice.

And Rico, lol. Nice to see you too.

 

[Taylor]

Any improvement would be appreciated. -_-

 

[WhityJinn]

Players recently robbed can hire a detective to retrieve the item stolen. A new kind of deed is used to do this.

There`s no stealing in Ultima Online nowadays.WHat are you talking about?

 

[Shinobi]

There`s no stealing in Ultima Online nowadays.

Speak for yourself, lol.

 

[WhityJinn]

What, you managed to steal 200 gp from a pvmer on the Isle of the Avatar in the Fire temple or what?

Alot more than you described in the OP I was doing on a pre-tram free shard.With forensic I was able to learn who is a thief, and then killed them in town, as they were unable to call the guards.
People knew I was a detective, and appreciated it.

And all of this without implementing any new stupid systems in game.

Countless possibilities were taken away from the game, some of them for seemingly no reason..sad.

If things were done smarter, we could still have some decent gameplay EVEN with Trammel and Insurance and stuff.

Don`t you know that?

 

[Shinobi]

Ok, i don't want this turning into a trolling thread, and i can see this derailing really fast, haha. All i'm gonna say is i've stolen everything that i tried hard enough to. Countless in fel, and a ton from guilds in tram.

The reason this thread will get derailed is because some people don't agree with methods such as guild stealing. If anything, this detective idea works in their favor, being that a detective could go after any recently stolen item.

I don't need a shard without insurance to steal valuable items. I have my methods, they are legal, but very sneaky and underhanded...and i understand not everyone agrees with them. So, let's leave it at that.

 

[WhityJinn]

Shinobi, trolling?Deariling?I`m just speaking my opinion.Where did you see trolling?You want to say that I`m wrong or what?

 

[Shinobi]

Lol, sorry i wasn't referring to you.

I mean, if i start naming items i've stolen and how i did it, people take it as bragging. And every time, without fail, people start calling me a scammer because they don't agree with how i steal some items. Note my signature, it is there for those people who love to argue against me.

I'd like people to post their opinions and suggestions on the thread, but i don't want it getting derailed because i especially like this idea and i want real feedback on it.

So, i'm not meaning to offend you, i'm just thinking five steps ahead of my reply. I explain why i disagree with you and tell you valuable things i've stolen as proof. Then, other posters disagree and say my steals aren't steals, but are scams (even though i use the stealing skill to steal them). I reply, more join in, next thing you know...derailed. So that is why i'm being so cautious with what i say, lol.

 

[Shinobi]

I added a poll to the thread. Please vote and reply with thoughts and suggestions.

 

[funkymonkey]

Got Inquis?

lolz.

 

[Shinobi]

Bumpage.

 

[Shinobi]

I'd like to get a few more votes. I guess i'll try to bring this idea to the attention of devs.

 

[Readydood]

John Honda from Atlantic here.

Shinobi, after hearing what you had to say about your ideas in game I just had to come here to read the details in full. While I do like the outer shell of the system, there are some things that flat out just don't vibe with me. I voted that "i think the detectives need a new system", even though I don't entirely disagree with you.

and here is why...

No doubt that detectives and theives are in the same boat as they depend on one-another for inspiration and action... the detective more than the thief unfortunately. Looking at a detectives wants and needs can be a challenge when looking through thief eyes. The same goes vice versa. But the way you are looking at this detective reform is "I want more people to want to play detectives so that I can have some extra entertainment" instead of "I want more people to play detectives because I really want to be challenged".

The overall premise of the system with the deed, and you hire a detective, and the detective uses the deed on the thief to apprehend, and the thief can't sell or bank the weapon while it is "hot", and the deed gives clues to the activeness of the thief... love it. I would personally add that within that realm they should institute a detectives guild much like the thief guild, where you need a certain base skill level in forensics to be apart of. But I go into what I believe my system to be in another post, and won't repeat much of it here. Those interested in reading about some of my ideas for a detective revision will find a link to the thread at the bottom of this post. Or you can search for all threads by me and it will be fairly obvious which one it is

Syrus makes a very valid point about me and any other detective not being able to play night and day just sitting and waiting for a crime to happen. As it is now if I log for a few hours I end up missing something.

While I know that thieves love to humor us detectives, and believe me, we thank you for it! The only time a thief would sign the confession and let the item be returned is if it was something garbage that the thief just stole to create conflict. If it's a good item, they are going to choose the hard way. And that leaves me with just ONE attempt to drop them? Hrm, I see several pvpers that have trouble catching one half ass stealther ninja, and these are people whose full template is geared to combat. I know I have 300 skill points that are taken up by detective skills [track, detect, forensics], and that leaves me rather deficient in the combatives department. I'm sure most other detectives suffer the same side effects. If the thief has an item on the line, he isn't going to play around.. smoke bomb, moongate/serverline, haul ass.

When a detective accepts a case, it is active for 2 in-game in-felucca hours based on the thief. This also means that a stolen item cannot be sold for 2 in-game hours, since it is "hot" (one hour if the victim does not issue a deed in time). If one real life week passes without a conclusion, the deed expires and the Thief Status reads "Failed to Locate". The detective can keep the deed as a reminder of his failure.

I am a little confused about this. The case is active for 2 hours... but also has a week to reach a conclusion?

In the end it seems like the detective has no REAL confrontational power in this system. Just some odds and ends that make his mission more official and documented. Not a bad thing, but not enough. If you really want to devise a system to revamp the detective and make it attracting to players, you need to think along the lines of "what don't thieves want to happen to them?".

are we still on for sex in the city marathon tomorrow?

BOOM [no i didn't forget]: http://vboards.stratics.com/uhall/181943-throw-detective-bone.html

 

[Ned888]

"I think Detectives need another plan."

That was my vote and here's why:

1. They would only be of any use in Fel.
2. With so many skills devoted to detecting, they would not have the skills needed to defend themselves in Fel....
3. Reds feel like the deck is stacked against them enough as it is.
4. Brittania is a big world and locating anyone at this point is needle in a haystack tough.

I think a PvM challenge might be more in order for this sort of character, sure you can use it against players, but they should be able to be active on both Fel/Tram and have some exciting adventures.

The core issue remains in the fact that Trammel is too safe and Felucca is too dangerous. This type of character would be difficult to play in either environment right now....

 

[grig_since98]

It would work for trammel steals as well. Most thieves live in fel, if anything, catch them as they recall to their house and present them with the deed.

Valor, that's a good point, even though the time limit is based off of the thief's in-game/felucca time (i mean if the thief wants to stay offline a whole week for one item, so be it). Maybe there can be up to 3 detectives on a case at a time. Regardless, it still gives the victim a chance at getting the item back, unlike the current situation.

This isn't a massive change, it probably wouldn't even be a big enough change to be its own booster. If they can fix water movement, they can do anything.

A board wouldn't work. It could, but i think it would be best for a player to choose a detective, and for the detective to literally be hired onto a case. Who knows, if a detective is good enough, and trustworthy enough, he could even start charging a fee. Maybe 1/4 the value of the lost item? It'd be the detective's choice.

And Rico, lol. Nice to see you too.

I don't know what the intent is with this post or if it was intended seriously, but I actually think something like it is not a bad idea, except for one big problem. Using the stealing skill, in Fel, as stealing in this game is intended to work, is not the problem. How are you defining a "trammel steal"? By my understanding of the intent of the split between the facets in the first place, such a thing shouldn't be able to be done. Personally I indeed, do not see your methods in Tram as "stealing" in UO, rather I feel it is a scam perpetrated on people who have chosen Tram because they want to play in a controlled environment where PvP or stealing isn't allowed, which, in fairness, was never what UO was originally about, but that is what these people choose. My opinion isn't the issue though, what is the issue is how do you determine if something has been stolen in Tram? If Bob says Bill stole or scammed him out of an item, can he get one of these contracts? What if Bob just made that up? What if it was a misunderstanding?

I have no problem with Fel stealing, in fact, I don't understand that if player killing is ok, then stealing shouldn't be. I'd like to try it. It seems from what I've observed the developers have consistently nerfed theft *in Fel using the game skill* for no reason I can see other than perhaps PK is considered "fair" while stealing is somehow "not fair". In Fel, I see no difference there really.

I know about the guild stealing. That's cool. I wasn't personally involved and the items weren't mine, and as we've seen things like Tinker legs are pretty low value items in the grand scheme of these thefts. After hearing about it, I'm going to, if it is in my power, make it my personal responsibility that my fellow members lose some of their trammel flab and that this doesn't happen again. I'm not that upset about it personally, but I just think people have gotten too trusting and I look at it as a challenge.

 

[Readydood]

You both make very good points. And Grig, you're a very fair speaker!

here is the template that I currently play on my detective:

120 archery
95 anatomy
90 healing
110 tactics
100 forensic
100 detect
100 tracking

no mana break, underpowered for pvm and pvp. forensic interacts with few things. detect and tracking are good, but then i find the guy... i hope he's laggy and weak.

my character is good for catching guild thieves [90% of that is common sense anyways] and roleplay. I play him as a real detective, but I don't ROLEPLAY him if that makes sense.

yet something about him I just adore.

no doubt that if they expanded the role of detective, they would need to do so in PVM and PVP. they would need to do some skill merging or roll with my detectives guild idea. grant them extra goodies to have an advantage cause skill points wise we don't.

and yes Grig. it seems like some stealing is legit by the books using the steal skill on someone and taking their item. and other stealing is scamming. obviously shinobis idea applies only to the non scam version, and i'm sure there is some character check don't when getting a deed that can see the item was steal stolen off of them.

 

[Tjalle]

I think something should be done to players that rob players by joining guilds or using guilds and then rob from them in trammel. And then disappear.

Sorry, off topic here but...

What is the reasoning behind allowing guild stealing in Trammel? Just curious.

 

[MySavannahRanger]

Here is my opinion on the whole issue and i personaly do not care what those that have a scammers personaltiy have to think about it.
Guild and alliance stealing should not be allowed in tram, plain and simple.
If one chooses to be a thief and steal and item that would help them in combat while in fel, then that seems reason enough to have a thief in the guild.
Anyone can argue with the following statements but it it is only a tell on yourself. Just like murder, stealing is in the same category of morals. I understand and accept the fact that trammel was created so that those with morals could play the game without the wories of thieves and murders. I do not judge all that choose to pvp, this is a game and it is a great release for those evil thoughts.
My personal opinion is that Guild and alliance stealing should not be allowed in Trammel. The reason is simple. It is a simple scam whenever someone pretends to be someone they are not, inorder to obtain justly earned goods. No differents in scamming someone from their items with the given intent to trade them on another shard.
I do realize that scammers cannot be monitored, however this simple act of not allowing "stealing" in guild and alliance would help alot.
It seems that the simple ability to scam someone of their goods has become a platform to brag of ones accomplishments.
If this trend continues, it is my opinion, it will be the end of the game. The majority of players are honest players and i believe that the worry of not only the simple scam, but a "thief" in their alliance will cause most of them to give up on the game completely.
It is an outright shame that those that choose to be scammers can continue to play this game without penalty. However those of us that choose to play the game as moral folks can sleep at night. No big deal if we dont get a drop, we are not drivin by the next wanted scam.

 

[Raptor85]

You base real life morality over actions in a game?

I feel sorry for you, having to turn yourself into the police every time you get a multikill in UT, must be a hard life.

 

[Shinobi]

Guild and alliance stealing should not be allowed in tram, plain and simple.

But it is, plain and simple. That is how the creators made it, regardless of their original intent. There is even a fair warning message prior to accepting a guild invite.

Just like murder, stealing is in the same category of morals.

Wow, so anyone who PvP's in this VIDEO GAME (<----keyword) must be a horrible, horrible person irl.

It is a simple scam whenever someone pretends to be someone they are not, inorder to obtain justly earned goods. No differents in scamming someone from their items with the given intent to trade them on another shard.

Oh, this is a good quote, i like it. Let's think here...the creators of the game could not have possibly have meant for thieves (aka scammers in your opinion, even though it is a CLASS in the VIDEO GAME) to take on another identity. If they had, then i'm sure there would have been an item to assist in taking on different identities. OH WAIT! WHAT'S THAT?



DISGUISE KITS??????????



Wake up and realize this is A VIDEO GAME. Do not take anything that happens in the game to heart, ESPECIALLY if it is done through game mechanics WHICH ARE IN FACT IN PLACE AND HAVE WARNINGS TO PROVE THEY ARE MEANT TO BE IN PLACE.

On top of that, way to go off topic just because you do not agree with thieves. This thread had nothing to do with benefiting thieves, if anything this idea would nerf them even further.

Stop comparing this game to real life. You have no idea what people are like outside of the game, and just because they play a character that STEALS other players' items with a SKILL WITHIN THE GAME does not mean they are horrible, horrible people irl. Murderers in the game are not serial killers irl, are they?



You tell me this, and i will retire as a thief:

How do i steal an item from a player (an item of either great value or one the player is especially attached to for example) without hurting that player's feelings and upsetting them? Regardless of the facet, how is this done where the victim is still left smiling and happy as can be? Keep in mind, the thief is a CLASS inside of this VIDEO GAME (i feel the need for caps because it is so hard to drill this into some people's ignorant skulls), so 'do not steal' is not an option. You tell me how to be a polite thief, making everyone happy while stealing from them.

 

[MySavannahRanger]

well, no real need to quote me and leave out most of what i stated, being as my post is just above yours. Its plain and simple. To con is to scam.

 

[MySavannahRanger]

(Webster's Dictionart) con. describing or having to do with someone who gains a person's confidence in order to swidle that person. - to trick a person out of money or property by first gaining that person's confidence

 

[Shinobi]

well, no real need to quote me and leave out most of what i stated, being as my post is just above yours. Its plain and simple. To con is to scam.

But to steal is to steal...therefore it is a steal, not a scam. Also, i guess if you believe disguise kits are meant to be used for scamming, then you must believe scamming was intended to be in the game?

I'm not trying to defend scamming (actual scamming, as in not using the stealing skill), i just believe you don't understand the difference between stealing and scamming (yes, there's a difference in this VIDEO GAME). One uses a skill in the game and what does not...plain and simple.

 

[MySavannahRanger]

(Webster's Dictionary) scam. an act of cheating or tricking someone out of money or property; a swindle

 

[Shinobi]

(Webster's Dictionart) con. describing or having to do with someone who gains a person's confidence in order to swidle that person. - to trick a person out of money or property by first gaining that person's confidence

(Webster's Dictionary) scam. an act of cheating or tricking someone out of money or property; a swindle

(UO Herald) Stealing - a skill used to obtain an item(s) from another player's inventory.


Shut up already and realize THIS IS NOT REAL LIFE.

 

[MySavannahRanger]

No reason to get upset. As i stated origionaly it is my personal opinion. Its just a game, im alowd to have a personal opinion.

 

[Shinobi]

No reason to get upset.

You're right, i won't let your absolute ignorance derail this thread, seeing as though you had no intention to add to the topic of reviving detectives from the very moment you posted here:

Here is my opinion on the whole issue and i personaly do not care what those that have a scammers personaltiy have to think about it.

Find another thread to troll, i'm done with you.

 

[MySavannahRanger]

Choose your quotes as they suit you. It is just a thread, not real life. I only posted my opinion on the subject at hand.
To be honest though, your personal attempts to insult me in real, (as you claim this to just be a game) do not serve you well.

 

[puzzleagent]

I voted "I like it and I believe it can work"

but honestly, I am all for anything to make detectives an effective and fun template to run

 

[Petra Fyde]

Play nice please, the RoC is feeling threatened.

 

[Readydood]

*cracks the "get back on track" whip as hard as he possibly can*

Savanah, I hear where you're coming from. In a facet that was made to be a safe-er retreat from the harshness of the original lands... why on earth is guild thieving permitted? I mean... you can't even loot a monster corpse that you didn't participate in killing!

Guild thieving is not an oversight issue. It remains in the game mechanics for a reason. The same reason that you can sneak an assassin into a guild and shank the guild leader dead at Haven bank and loot their corpse dry while all their guildmates are unable to rescue any items off the body.

It's there to remind people what game they are playing....
It's present to help thicken the skin of a trammel guild, so that they are more prepared to move onto felucca champ spawns without having their minds blown....
It's remained because the original creators were a smidge mean spirited and always wanted their to be a danger element. And with all the insurance, bless deeds, private property house default setting... the game world has become almost TOO safe.

 

[Readydood]

And there is my sympathy! Now back to the business at hand!

I don't know whether to continue posting ahead in this thread or in the one I started awhile back. Wish we could fuse the two together...

I'm done thinking of complete overhauls, I'd rather take one skill and focus on it. Or take a simple idea and see if we can agree on it without too much elaboration. We come up with these long drawn out plans that we can forever argue about and by the time we're done the thread has turned into a total mess. Who's going to be inspired by that?

So let's start small and take one very simple idea, like 10 words. And if we can agree on on it, then we can build off it.

I'm going to throw a few out there now. Off the top of my head! Some are repeats from the thread I started, some I have mentioned in here, some are brand new.

1. the thieves guild but for detectives.

2. merge tracking and detect hidden.

3. "undercover kit" for detectives, works like disguise kit.

 

[Yenji Yasagari]

I am all for this idea. I've never seen a detective in game until the recent rare's fest hoobaloo, and there I would meet the famous detective Johnny Honda. This guy was on me like white on rice, everywhere I went. Sometimes I noticed, sometimes, I didn't. But after seeing him at multiple banks I was visiting, I did become a bit paranoid that he was somehow "watching me." Giving him the ability to attack me would have made it so much sweeter for both parties, more of a rush if you will.

Yes for detective's getting a bump!

-Hoodwink

 

[Readydood]

HA! I am glad that you were experiencing the "is that guy watching me?" feeling...
was it real? was it a coincidence? was it FATE? I'll never tell.

pleased that you enjoyed yourself!
now quick EA, give me some actual ability to FOIL his robberies instead of just banter about them.. GAH!

- John Honda

 

[Taylor]

I didn't read any of this thread..

That's pretty apparent, based on this statement:

Roleplaying in uo is dead..

The point of this thread is to make detectives useful beyond RP. The point is to make detectives legitimately dangerous to PvP thieves.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

That's pretty apparent, based on this statement:



The point of this thread is to make detectives useful beyond RP. The point is to make detectives legitimately dangerous to PvP thieves.

​

 

[Readydood]

icm420, this thread has ZERO to do with roleplay...

Syrus, I like that enthusiasm!

Fayled, that's the reaction we need to fix.

I know it's a profession that like .03% of the game plays. But there are a lotta skills just sitting around begging to be set free. Lightning or the lottery, I have a better chance at both.... but you never know!

 

[icm420]

I think my point remains valid.. why waste time recovering a potion or a bandage someone took? To me it's a wasted skill and I feel the direction of the game should not be to fix a useless skill but fix bugs, glitches, hacks, cheats, blah blah blah. I can't see a pvper putting points into a skill to get items back from someone.. that is why I assumed roleplaying.. since I know of no one who has said hey lets make detectives and kill people...

120s perhaps I hadn't considered them at first because they are meaningless to me, however I suppose I can see a use for that.

Also siege it could be useful I suppose..

How do you make it so the thief can't just bank the item? If a timer is placed on a thief so they can't remove/bank an item it would seem to me that a thief would be even harder to play and even less successful then they already are. Idk I will shut up about it, it won't effect me in any way what so ever and I apoligize for trolling your thread.

 

[Shinobi]

it would seem to me that a thief would be even harder to play

Yes, but it would be way more entertaining. We're used to getting nerfed, might as well make it interesting.


Also, thank you for not attempting to troll the thread. We appreciate it.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

icm420, this thread has ZERO to do with roleplay...

Syrus, I like that enthusiasm!

Fayled, that's the reaction we need to fix.

I know it's a profession that like .03% of the game plays. But there are a lotta skills just sitting around begging to be set free. Lightning or the lottery, I have a better chance at both.... but you never know!

dude ...
IF this thread has zero to do with roleplay
It has ZERO TO DO WITH UO ...
try and keep it real
dude ...

there is NO FIX for that statement to Not Be laughable
even DEEP in the roleplay ... it remains a ridiculous statement.

As does the "concept" of this thread:
Plan to revive Detectives ... uhhuh ... okay ... sure ...
wait ...

why do Detectives NEED a revive? ...
while you work on that ...

What are they gonna do ONCE revived ?
gonna go bust up some thieves !!

now are these champion scroll thieves? or doom crates?

Because I ain't seen NOTHING proposed mechanics wise that would have ANY effect on the one >true theft< that had recently been mis-reported ...
That WAS I must grudgingly admit ... a High Art Crime ... Pink Panther grade, planned out like an old Mission impossible, Thomas Crown affair brilliance in its subtlety,
Have you philistines never seen "The Sting"?

Now then ...
WHAT is your Chief Inspector Jacques Clouseau GOING TO DO?

I'll Tell you: ain't gonna do Jacque >without Role play<
ain't gonna do jack > without thieves < either (Either eIther >requires< the other)

Time !
Q: why do Detectives NEED a revive? ...
A: because True Thieves >were nerfed into oblivion<
DOH !!


Well, we'll un-nerf them a bit
/false
as much as you may think you want to, to have a rabbit for your detective hound to chase ...
ain't gonna happen ... the devs in the slightest "un-nerfing thieves" <<< ain't gonna happen

and as SURE as that ain't gonna happen ...

Sure as hell no one is gonna allow the "Newly Revived Detective class" ...
A) Go all TSA on our characters (for the greater good of the kingless kingdom duh ... any excuse to snoop ya LIKE a thief looking for a thief )
B) BE a thief role playing a detective to burrow deep into the shards EM's confidence and execute a Mondain class betrayal
(hell I don't know >exactly what< ... Just that it is possible on the social engineering menu .. see def for : betrayal of trust ... it "steals" ... something ... don't it?

C) to actually functionally "empower" the detective to track "a thief", it is a logical necessity to track the theft to an entire account.
D) IF you limit the tracking to the item only ... then, logically, you don't need the thief ... just spawn the item like the honesty implementation
E) IF you don't need the thief, logically an NPC should suffice, just like the existing quest engine product.
F) If an NPC would suffice ... it really really would not be necessary to revive the detective class

ain't that hard to outwit and track an NPC ... basically thats a >backwards escort<

NOT Moriarty and Holmes ...
*wink*
you CAN pretend believe it is ... Caution:
some roleplaying will be required ...

double damn DOH ... neh?

 

[grig_since98]

Another reason for the stealing skill ( Im not even getting back into the confidence tricks) working in trammel guilds is skill gain. Can you practice stealing skill on guildmates or guided pack animals?

 

[Readydood]

Fayled, you are more worked up over this discussion than me, shinobi, and a teenager who just discovered bang bus all rolled into one. I'm excited to see someone get so excited. Allow me to address your concerns/comments/points to the best of my ability!

1. When I say "roleplay" I refer "hail and well met sire!" and necromancers having guild meetings in the cemetery, cause that is what necromancers do. I'm not referring to playing the role of your character, because that is what I do.

2. Nobody wants to go all TSA on anyone. I am very much anti-authority. When you hear detective please don't think CSI detectives on the prowl taking your ass downtown... I wouldn't have much interest in playing some law character that just went around invading peoples privacy. We put up with that in the real world, why bring that into a game.

3. If you're talking about the big steal on Atlantic.. the suit.. I was a part of that. Obviously NOT on the thieving end. But I was there snooping around. That is of course not a technical "use steal skill on item in backpack" theft, so none of anything we're talking about has to do with that case.

4. While thieves have suffered some nerfing, no doubt... they still get plenty of opportunities to pull heists. Whether it's guild stealing in trammel, or powerscroll/artifact snatching at the spawns. So we clearly don't need them un-nerfed... the rabbits are already in the garden. When people get robbed they do several things: rage about it, quit, spam warnings about the player for the rest of the day, laugh it off. The laugh-it-off'ers are in the minority... So if nothing else maybe the detective is just a morale booster? Never the less, you might find that some people who weren't terribly interested in participating in Felucca, may be inspired to make a sleuth and start poking their heads around in red gates. More people in Fel? I can live with that!

5. You should take a read of my "throw a detective a bone" thread. There were some great contributions from other players about how to give Forensics some fun and useful PVM applications. Not the focus on this particular thread, but it would work.

6. Your A-F rationalization is exactly the hurdle that we are trying to get over. How to functionally track a theft without going overboard.

There are enough people running around as thieves... infinitely more than there are people chasing them. We seem to be on the same page. I would love to hear some suggestions from you.

since I know of no one who has said hey lets make detectives and kill people...

that is what I said to myself when I created my detective... I throw a smidge of character roleplay in there like when I am listening to somebody I will emote *takes notes* or something... but that's about as heavy as it gets. yeah, when I made him I was thinking of seeing a thief snatch an item, throw on track, give chase, pop him a few times and moving shot him down with a hit fireball repeater or something gnarly like that [which I have done multiple times]. it was very fun for a long time, now it doesn't get me as giddy due to me being jaded about the glaring weaknesses and lack of content of my template.

How do you make it so the thief can't just bank the item? If a timer is placed on a thief so they can't remove/bank an item it would seem to me that a thief would be even harder to play and even less successful then they already are. Idk I will shut up about it, it won't effect me in any way what so ever and I apoligize for trolling your thread.

that is the question I am asking myself. and I don't think that's the right way to go about it. I'm thinking there needs to be a bond between the item and the detective for anything solid to happen. making the link between the thief and the detective exclusively won't work.

I appreciate you not trolling here, but I'm open to any input even if it's name calling and animated gifs of dead horses being hit with an oar

 

[Ned888]

You both make very good points. And Grig, you're a very fair speaker!

here is the template that I currently play on my detective:

120 archery
95 anatomy
90 healing
110 tactics
100 forensic
100 detect
100 tracking

no mana break, underpowered for pvm and pvp. forensic interacts with few things. detect and tracking are good, but then i find the guy... i hope he's laggy and weak.

my character is good for catching guild thieves [90% of that is common sense anyways] and roleplay. I play him as a real detective, but I don't ROLEPLAY him if that makes sense.

yet something about him I just adore.

no doubt that if they expanded the role of detective, they would need to do so in PVM and PVP. they would need to do some skill merging or roll with my detectives guild idea. grant them extra goodies to have an advantage cause skill points wise we don't.

and yes Grig. it seems like some stealing is legit by the books using the steal skill on someone and taking their item. and other stealing is scamming. obviously shinobis idea applies only to the non scam version, and i'm sure there is some character check don't when getting a deed that can see the item was steal stolen off of them.

I like your build, but I would say that a few more skills could/should be added to the mix:

1. Spirit Speak - Speak to the ghost victim or dead body of an NPC victim. Could result in a positive ID/witness count.
2. Armslore - Evaluate the murder weapon or marks on the corpse to ID a weapon... Possibly give a defense bonus against the perp.
3. Detect Hidden - Gotta find those clues/or the baddie himself.
4. Evaluate Intelligence - By evaluating the target, you might get a bonus to offense or defense when attempting to arrest them. Get inside their head and all that.

of course these skills would have to have extra functionality added to them. They would also have to come up with some way to add crime back into Trammel.

Having this many different skills work towards a single set of challenges means that there would be opportunity to create many different types of investigators (Witch Hunters / Psychic Investigators / PI's / Urban Detectives / Rangers / Etc.) that could work cooperatively (a guild or being hired by the city guard perhaps). I'd really like to see a whole system come together for making this build an adventure generating tool.

Heck, they could do this with a LOT of the skills that are considered 'useless' to give them more functionality, create adventure and get people out of their castles and back into the towns and cities of Brittania.

Just some thoughts. Sounds like it might be a good expansion pack.... Hint, Hint, Hint

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I think it's still in the early stages of planning. You get a couple of ideas together and you should be able to build a pretty good system but I think you're still going to miss something.

When you think of detective you think of solving a mystery. Like if someone stole a painting from your home or if somebody was murdered.

You also think about perception, the ability to see what others can not.

One of the things that I think about is, Guild and Alliance. You should not be able to steal or kill within these 2 systems unless you are in Fel.

The interesting thing, is that by removing a thief and a murderer from Trammel, you also remove other game play. I think when you just remove something it is missing. It's like an extreme.

Designers of the game should recognize that by removing something they create problems in the design and that there should be a way to keep the game play but change the affect.

For example: In Trammel, to have stealing or to have killing it would have to be a system that is roleplay based.

So, in Fel, you could maintain the current system but in Trammel you would have to find a way to preserve the game play style but eliminate the actual act.

So, you have to create some type of incentive and create some type of sequence for PvM and Roleplay.

Some of the skills should actually be alot better, like Forensics could work with Tracking and actually give a bonus to being a thief.

If you just look at it where you add NPCs that can steal or kill, then you allow them to roam. So, they become like players. You could even give them homes to live in and names. Kind of like doing a boat quest but they would be on land.

So, you might have an NPC come aside of you and get a message, That the NPC has stolen something but in Trammel it would just be roleplay and when you killed the NPC or if, you would find the item that he had supposedly taken from you.

So, that's just my opinion. When you talk about Trammel, it should be a system that acts the same way but in no way can negatively affect Guilds or Alliance.

If they made some really good NPC Player Types, they could really fill those gaps right away and then slowly figure out what types of systems for stealing and killing, if ever, there could be for Trammel.

One of the things I always think about when they talk about Decetives or Thieves are the old mage guilds, where you would get a discount on regs. I think those systems should be improved. Like you have the Knights of the Crux. I believe we already had a Knights Guild. So, basically, they could of had everyone join these sub sytems and allow for different activities.

Like, joining The Thieves Guild or The Mages Guild and still be able to keep your current status in whatever Guild or Alliance you're in. There's just alot of dead systems that have never really been taken advantage of.