Please stop the auto-destruction of UO! I love this game too much!

[Thav12]

I have been reading all these threads over the past several months regarding all kinds of rule violations. It may involve house placement/design, scripting, speeders, skill training, invissing, ball bags, kill stealing, gold buying, anything really, even sharing of "secret" information.......

I have one major issue with all of that:

Funny how rule benders are found at every level. "I hate dupers, but I am ok with script mining" ----> "I hate script mining, but I am ok with UM skill training" ----> "I hate UM skill training but I am ok with attended scripting of tedious tasks" ---> "I hate all automated scripting/training, but I am ok with search uo sites and buying gold" ----> "I hate people that use such sites and buy gold, but it is ok to build an illegal house" ----> "I hate people that misuse game mechanics to build illegal houses, but I am ok with invissing people who train with annoying pets in Luna" ---> "I hate people that invis people with annoying pets, but I am ok with invissing pets at EM events" ---> "i hate invissing pets at EM events, but I am ok with bothering the crap out of everyone else by invoking every frickin little rule in EM" ---> "i hate people that pretentiously invoke every little rule ----> I just mind my own business" ---> "I hate people that mind their own business, but it is ok if we do it in a guild and make life impossible for individuals" ----> "I hate people that make lives impossible for individuals by guild/team ganking, but I don't mind soloing peerless" ---> "peerless should not be soloable, that is against the intent of the game, but I am ok with running through shame naked and survive" Endless list of justifications.....

This is a sand box game, but yet everyone has their own little justifications at every level to not let someone else enjoy their sandbox game. ToS invokation is just a means to limit someone else at doing what they are doing. Most people just need to get off their high horses. This mass banning business is just bad for everyone at every level. Number of posts is way down it appears on stratics, game is neigh empty, people are not coming back in droves. Why not go back to the happy status quo, enjoy the game, do your own "illegal" thing and be happy you can do this in a game. Drive the speed limit in real life...

And no, i didn't get banned, never was paged upon or anything, ever. I just choose to do things in game that I enjoy, and have done that since 1998. I have perfect understanding of the game economy, the bad influence of all of the above. But I still play and enjoy this game, and have enjoyed it longer than ANY game every made by humans.

I "hate" holier than thou people. This is the best game on the planet, don't set it to auto-destruct.... PLEASE!!!! Don't allow it to be destroyed simply based on your interpretation of right and wrong. Eventually, it will all balance out anyway. Even something as bad as Duping will eventually stop because of the complete devaluation of any item that gets duplicated. My rights are not your rights, my wrongs may not be your wrongs.... fine, I will deal and hope you continue to do as well...

Not advocating complete abolishment of any rules. Rules are part of a game. However, the bending of the rules and finding loop holes -at any level- is part of why this game is fantastic. Don't forget that while you are paging to get a "rule" enforced.

enjoy new content, pay your UO bills, keep at it for another 13 years. Perhaps someone will find new and ingenious ways to beat the "rules" driving those awesome new boats they are planning on putting out! Can't wait to learn and read about that here on stratics!

sorry for this sunday rant, but I wish people would just chill and realize that this is an awesome game because of all of this, not despite all of this...

 

[Mehelenya]

Would be nice enough if Peoples would stop with their crying over every little crap that happens in UO. I mean hell, i just came back to UO a few weeks ago. Europa had enough Players, but from one day to the other that Shard went to hell. It seems that everyone is gone. I don't know if Peoples moved to other Shards or got banned but if this don't stops pretty soon, then goodbye Europa, it will become another Drachenfels. And dead Shards are bad Shards, Peoples don't wants to Play an Onlinegame when there are not enough other Players.

 

[Babble]

*chills*
hey Pirates of the burning sea is going free to play

 

[Old Man of UO]

Funny, but the shard I play on has been busier this past week or so than any time I can remember in the past 6 months. More returning or new players on the help chat asking for information on changes since they last played.

Cheating is cheating, not just "bending the rules." The Op just posted a long-winded rant about why we should just ignore cheating and leave them alone. "Sandbox game" is one of the worst excuses I've read about allowing cheating to continue. Cheating is what is ruining this game, not trying to get rid of it.

This really belongs in SnR.

 

[Thav12]

Funny, but the shard I play on has been busier this past week or so than any time I can remember in the past 6 months. More returning or new players on the help chat asking for information on changes since they last played.

Cheating is cheating, not just "bending the rules." The Op just posted a long-winded rant about why we should just ignore cheating and leave them alone. "Sandbox game" is one of the worst excuses I've read about allowing cheating to continue. Cheating is what is ruining this game, not trying to get rid of it.

This really belongs in SnR.

No, not true. It is not a justification of cheating. Choose not to cheat.

This game has not been ruined by any "level" of cheating.... it is a tense balance, i concur, but it has become a balance nevertheless. This is the longest running game for a reason. Zealots like you are part of that balance, and I do not argue against what you state much. However, I am advocating for the game, not against cheating. Semantics, I know, but important nevertheless. I don't want YOU to kill the game as much as I don't want cheats to kill the game. It is the balance that matters... Don't make me out to be either...

 

[Beer_Cayse]

I use UOA when I do find the time to play. It helps with the repetitive stuff ... but I am always there at the keyboard. I invite any GM to drop by and say hello.

Choosing to play sans cheats is fine for many, however human nature dictates that where an easy way is available it will be taken. Others choose to play their way - the easy (um, illegal scripting, etc) way and it might just bite them in the rear end.

I play with an approved add-on and the client - my choosing.

 

[Old Man of UO]

... It is the balance that matters...

And just how do you balance using cheats, for example speedhacks and stumphacks in PvP, where the honest person doesn't use those cheats? Some, a very few, can compete, but the average player doesn't even try or gives up after watching others use the cheats.

There is NO balance in allowing cheating.

 

[Thav12]

And just how do you balance using cheats, for example speedhacks and stumphacks in PvP, where the honest person doesn't use those cheats? Some, a very few, can compete, but the average player doesn't even try or gives up after watching others use the cheats.

There is NO balance in allowing cheating.

That is assuming that there is an average player. My contention is that the balance between players has been found over 13 years. Some choose to participate with one aspect, some with another aspect of the games regardless of its flaws/cheats/etc. One persons clever manipulation of client side game aspects, is another persons "hack". Some people even complain about EC being a cheat because it has a slightly different way it handles movement and environment. My point is that it matters on every level, yet at the largest birds eye perspective the balance is actually quite delicate and has allowed this game to prevail for 13 years, with everyone finding "their own balance" with all the flaws included. That is what evolution actually is all about, and one thing I am strongly advocating for is to allow the natural evolution of this game to continue. In that sense some bannings I guess are needed... Just not to the point that it tips over the larger balance that we have found...

 

[Old Man of UO]

Sorry Thav, but your argument is just rhetorical BS. There is no "balance" when some players use cheats to have an advantage over other players. ESPECIALLY when many of those cheating are using non-paid trail accounts to cheat, and others go near god-like in PvP.

If you want more people to play in PvP, take away the unfair advantages. Period.

 

[Thav12]

Sorry Thav, but your argument is just rhetorical BS. There is no "balance" when some players use cheats to have an advantage over other players. ESPECIALLY when many of those cheating are using non-paid trail accounts to cheat, and others go near god-like in PvP.

If you want more people to play in PvP, take away the unfair advantages. Period.

Rethorics aside, I am clearly stating that "cheating" takes place at so many levels. advantages and disadvantages, fair or unfair, are to a large degree in the eye of the beholder. Certain boundaries need to be upheld, but your righteousness is just as annoying in my opinion as a script miner. It leads ultimately to kicking people out of the game for putting a frickin goza mat on their roofs.... balance my friend, balance.... not right or wrong... if you call that BS, and rethorical arguments, I welcome you to the real world. Law is usually a reflection of societal morals and is constantly in evolution. The fact that the ToS has not been adjusted since 1997 to include (for instance) allowing simple looping to train the same skill that has been trained 12 times before, only demonstrates that the rules have not kept up with an ever changing game. when 1000 gold bought you a suit, it made sense to disallow certain things, when the same suit costs 100.000.000 those rules simply make little sense. Standing on your head and stating you don't want the suit to cost 100.000.000 and that its price is the result of cheating is so right and so wrong at the same time.... Just like you are not all right, nor all wrong. It is those kind of rethorics and balance that allow this game to go on for 14 years

 

[Thav12]

I use UOA when I do find the time to play. It helps with the repetitive stuff ... but I am always there at the keyboard. I invite any GM to drop by and say hello.

Choosing to play sans cheats is fine for many, however human nature dictates that where an easy way is available it will be taken. Others choose to play their way - the easy (um, illegal scripting, etc) way and it might just bite them in the rear end.

I play with an approved add-on and the client - my choosing.

Yup, and I use the EC mostly. by choice. But I also choose not to page on UM, and to let a speed hacking PvP god kill me and gloat, without crying for a ban. I buy bulk wood, but will kill a scripted woodchuck when i see one. I don't page on him and don't come here to boast. I play with people that sometimes do not reply while they are logged in to the game. I enjoy playing with them when they come back. I know what goes on. My choice... it is the combined result of all our choices that makes this game a balanced game, not some righteous quoting of ToS and misguided sense of right and wrong. It has been that way for me since 1998.

 

[Old Man of UO]

This is just more scare tactics that the UO sky is falling if EA starts banning people for cheating. Lies and Nonsense. "Righteousness" and "Zealotry" are in the eye of the beholder - I am against it, you are for it, who is more "righteous"?

Instead of demanding that I accept cheating, why not just ask all the people cheating to stop? That would solve the problem for everyone! You wouldn't have to worry about the population dwindling - which by the way, Cal said the numbers are manageable.

Here you go, I'll even help...

OKAY CHEATERS - Listen up! Please stop cheating!

Thank you!

 

[twoburntfouryou]

I also worry about this I do hope this is not a path leading to the destruction of UO.Drop in players means less money and if there is a mass banning bye bye UO ? As for The TOS are very old and need updated IMO. And as far as the cheating by others it has not hurt my game play. But I choose not waste the time I have playing the game to run around looking for someone who may be cheating.I myself have not noticed many new or old players returning most have gone on to play other games. The people I know that do not play anymore are for reason other than cheating NONE quit playing because of cheating they just found newer games they enjoy more.

 

[Thav12]

This is just more scare tactics that the UO sky is falling if EA starts banning people for cheating. Lies and Nonsense. "Righteousness" and "Zealotry" are in the eye of the beholder - I am against it, you are for it, who is more "righteous"?

Instead of demanding that I accept cheating, why not just ask all the people cheating to stop? That would solve the problem for everyone! You wouldn't have to worry about the population dwindling - which by the way, Cal said the numbers are manageable.

Here you go, I'll even help...

OKAY CHEATERS - Listen up! Please stop cheating!

Thank you!

I wasn't trying to scare anyone. Just asking you (and the other people like you) to tone down the zealotry, just like you are asking to tone down the cheating. Asking for the world to become black and white again, doesn't make it any less gray.

I am sort of a middle of the road kind of person and I see the effects of taking both arguments to the extreme. Currently, we are, in my opinion, pushing too hard in one direction... I have also been very vocal, over the years, against duping for instance... that went way the other way....

 

[Thav12]

I also worry about this I do hope this is not a path leading to the destruction of UO.Drop in players means less money and if there is a mass banning bye bye UO ? As for The TOS are very old and need updated IMO. And as far as the cheating by others it has not hurt my game play. But I choose not waste the time I have playing the game to run around looking for someone who may be cheating.I myself have not noticed many new or old players returning most have gone on to play other games. The people I know that do not play anymore are for reason other than cheating NONE quit playing because of cheating they just found newer games they enjoy more.

i agree.

i also lack the time to police other people. Interestingly, I actually think that the few people that make it their sole purpose in life to kill script miners are, in a way, part of the balance I have been talking about here...

 

[popps]

Eventually, it will all balance out anyway.

I am sorry, but I disagree, entirely.

I am convinced that nothing balances out by itself, not in real life, nor in games.

If there are problems, either they are addressed or they can only get worse, I think. I am convinced that they do not and cannot just vanish like that.....

And cheating in Ultima Online, I think, has been and IS, a very big problem.

And, it needs to be addressed for the better sake of the game.

That's how I see it.

 

[Lady Michelle]

Players getting banned now is know ones fault, but their own. They have had enough warnings threw the months from the DEVS to quit cheating. So yes they knew the banning was coming, and still choose to do it. They get what the deserve.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

no text

 

[Thav12]

Players getting banned now is know ones fault, but their own. They have had enough warnings threw the months from the DEVS to quit cheating. So yes they knew the banning was coming, and still choose to do it. They get what the deserve.

sure. banned for duping? or for script mining? or for UMing? or for putting a goza mat on your roof? or for invissing another player? Dear lady michelle, the world is not black or white. everyone knew the ban was coming. deathrow for a jailwalk? slap on the wrist for murder? justice is not always as easy as you may put it here...

 

[Thav12]

UO has been dead for years; they stopped paying for the servers years ago, and it's just taken awhile for the server owners to notice they aren't being paid anymore.

Sooner or later they will realize and begin to block access, shard by shard, and then UO will be dead.

They will deny this if you ask them, but it's true. It's on my site. Haven't you seen it? It's right there.

And now that each and every UO player has been banned for cheating? That will just hasten the inevitable end, because even though they haven't noticed for 5 years that they aren't being paid, surely the server owners will notice when the servers suddenly fall silent.

I was just at the Nujel'M bank at the Mugen shard. (Sorry if I mis-spelled it.) Then I visited the Nujel'M bank on Siege. Then I visited the Felucca Nujel'M Bank on Darchinfelds (I mis-spelled this badly, I apologize...But why look up the proper spelling of a server in a game that's already dead?). And I saw no one anywhere.

If that isn't proof, I don't know what is. Haven't you seen my site? It's all there.

Or, rather, I would have looked at those 3 places and seen no people had I not been banned too, for paging on a PK who tried to PK me while I was afk-scripting resource gathering for the dead game. I tried to invis him for harassing me first, but then he told me he was going to page on me, so I called him a racial slur then speed-hacked, script-paged on him myself, only to find myself banned.

Damn it.

-Galen's player

Thanks for taking the time to write this (seriously!). Made me smile ear to ear. I would have put some bag balls in his path too, by the way and then climbed up to the 8th floor of my goza mat-rubble palace to laugh at him ;-) (jk)

 

[Old Man of UO]

banned for duping? or for script mining? or for UMing? or for putting a goza mat on your roof? or for invissing another player? ...

Goza mats and invissing another player may be harassment, but those two do NOT equate to duping or scripting. You are just twisting the argument...

So, why don't you just advocate to stop the cheating instead?

 

[Thav12]

Goza mats and invissing another player may be harassment, but those two do NOT equate to duping or scripting. You are just twisting the argument...

So, why don't you just advocate to stop the cheating instead?

I would, but right now that is not hurting the game as much as the counter argument. You are starting to get the point exactly though... not twisting, just not allowing the black/white argument. I am trying to save the game, accepting some shades of gray.

You ommitted Unattended Macroing. although I know that was not intended (and you would probably advocate a ban for that), it is a bit freudian, as that is exactly the gray spot I would find myself conflicted (my position, not right or wrong)

 

[Lady Michelle]

sure. banned for duping? or for script mining? or for UMing? or for putting a goza mat on your roof? or for invissing another player? Dear lady michelle, the world is not black or white. everyone knew the ban was coming. deathrow for a jailwalk? slap on the wrist for murder? justice is not always as easy as you may put it here...

When did placing goza mats on a roof become bannable ?
There is no excuse they knew it was coming and they still choose to do the cheating it being duping scripting etc etc. NO EXCUSE

 

[Thav12]

When did placing goza mats on a roof become bannable ?
..... NO EXCUSE

? ? ?

not getting it? people have been banned for all these ToS violations. weird huh, seeing the world as grey, makes it hard to see it black and white again....

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

no text

 

[Old Man of UO]

I would, but right now that is not hurting the game as much as the counter argument. You are starting to get the point exactly though... not twisting, just not allowing the black/white argument. I am trying to save the game, accepting some shades of gray.

You ommitted Unattended Macroing. although I know that was not intended (and you would probably advocate a ban for that), it is a bit freudian, as that is exactly the gray spot I would find myself conflicted (my position, not right or wrong)

How is my arguing for stopping the cheating hurting the game??? Like I said, you are twisting words. In my mind, macroing and scripting are one and the same. Both are cheats and both are wrong.

You are just scaremongering. People have been leaving UO for years because they no longer want to deal with all the cheats.

 

[Thav12]

They're not.

Some months back, like back in Spring, some GMs screwed up royally and threatened to action people who had used goza mate to duplicate a roof. The rationale: You're using goza mats to add a floor to your house.

Someone with awesome timing and a single-digit post count resurrected an old thread on the topic, conveniently not the one wherein Cal told us goza mats were not bannable, and that the GMs had simply screwed up badly.

The mention of goza mats and bannings for casting invisibility on someone in the same breath as rampant cheating is apples and oranges and trans fats being misrepresented to be more similar things than they actually are, to create the impression that anyone can be in danger of being banned for any reason at any time.

Who is UO's community rep again? Shouldn't he or she be dealing with this, instead of me? Especially since the devs have insulted me repeatedly in recent months?

Come on cheerleaders, they've done something worth defending. Come on out and defend it.

-Galen's player

and your point here is well taken...they are somewhat like apples and oranges. Trans fats are just bad... you know that... I agree that some gray is darker than other gray.... main thing remains though Galen, cheating is cheating in the eye of the beholder. Even in the benign cases you point out, statements of devs/comm reps are required to sort the right or wrong out. Sort of like a supreme court ruling on interpretation of law... My intent was not fear mongering and suggesting that bans can happen to just anyone. Just to point out that there are apples, oranges, peaches, lemons, kiwi's etc....

I like apples a little more than oranges... You?

 

[Lady Michelle]

? ? ?

not getting it? people have been banned for all these ToS violations. weird huh, seeing the world as grey, makes it hard to see it black and white again....

I get it perfectly, and I still choose to say they deserve to get banned.
let take the harasser he was asked by the player he was harassing to quit but choose not to gets paged on and gets a ban. His fault because he choose to keep harassing.
Now do I think for this do they need to get a mark on their account for it no.
Every time someone harasses some one in the game first offense 24 hour banned, and the second offense 48 hour banned, and every time someone keeps harassing someone another 24 hours will be added on the next time they harass. So they could end up getting banned for 4 months and still have to pay for their accounts if they do not want to lose their houses and items. same thing for the person who griefs invis players and pets in the game. Uming also but only if they are not using an illegal program to it.

duping cheating, scripting, and illegal programs etc ya I see marks banning and perma.

 

[Macrophage]

If the devs stopped following the suggestions of people posting on stratics the game would hold better. The points of view expressed on those pages are usually reflecting maybe 1% of the player base.

I feel that this thread is going into a dead end so why wouldn t EA make in game polls regarding the subjects on which Stratics players are so eager to see people banned. (Including the ones that stopped playing years ago but post shamelessly that they are happy to see others banned).

ie:

1) Shoud people using speedhack or simply hack program be banned?
2) Should people unattending ressources be banned?
3) Should people unattending skill training be banned?
4) Should people using unsanctioned script program while still being behind screen be banned?

Drop that poll in game, every one clicks yes or no and deal according to the expression of the majority. It s called democracy...

 

[Thav12]

If the devs stopped following the suggestions of people posting on stratics the game would hold better. The points of view expressed on those pages are usually reflecting maybe 1% of the player base.

I feel that this thread is going into a dead end so why wouldn t EA make in game polls regarding the subjects on which Stratics players are so eager to see people banned. (Including the ones that stopped playing years ago but post shamelessly that they are happy to see others banned).

ie:

1) Shoud people using speedhack or simply hack program be banned?
2) Should people unattending ressources be banned?
3) Should people unattending skill training be banned?
4) Should people using unsanctioned script program while still being behind screen be banned?

Drop that poll in game, every one clicks yes or no and deal according to the expression of the majority. It s called democracy...

Complete anonymous representation of the entire player corps by means of an anonymous vote, disallowing duplicate votes by duplicate accounts. I like the idealism behind it, and support it, but unfortunately not very practical. Remaining option: be vocal and represent here on stratics!