S
Sturdy
Guest
Make Faction Artifacts Easier to Get (by lowering prices) or Eliminate Them Entirely (forcing reliance on Crafting and PvM drops)
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(Question) Make Faction Artifacts Easier to Get or Eliminate Them?
- Thread starter Sturdy
- Start date
- Watchers 4
B
Black magick
Guest
Even if siege was behind this 100% it won't happen, which is why the option was left out of Forsaken's poll. It's not a realistic wish.
Anything is realistic, sir. If EA was convinced that 200 or more peole would reactivate their accounts then I think it's safe to say that it is realistic. And when I say 200, I don't mean actually 200 people, I mean 200 accounts (at least) as I myself would reactivate all 4 of mine.
F
Førsaken
Guest
B
Black magick
Guest
EA is already reluctant to do ANYTHING for Siege, or haven't you noticed? No way in hell they'd do it. Good luck getting a majority to back removal of faction arties anyway. Btw, compared to the rest of the player base, 200 accounts isn't that much.
I just dont see it as that hard of a concept.
LOl no that is totally wrong because when the so called rich people die with nonfaction artifacts the items get looted and put in circulation. Faction arties don't. Now that is what makes sense.
That is true, some will leak back, but for the most part the rich will have them all, and even if you get one, great, wear it, or lock it down, cause they will get it back. Ganks are gonna happen, and that means you lose the one set you got.
So instead of having quiet a number out there, you get down to a few, and they get taken, but in turn a few get leaked back.
Overall, with a removal of faction arties, the amount available to the average player is going to go down, way down.
S
Sturdy
Guest
I dont see it. The risk vs reward is skewed with faction items. They are worthless to loot unless they can be sold back. Non faction items are more easily sold and available to everyone.
I personally would rather that PvM and crafted items be useful and more valuable. This makes farming and making them more profitable. To me this creates a virtuous cycle: PvM people farm, crafters craft, and reds hunt them- good fun for all involved. The current system cuts faction members out of the community. I have no interest in fighting factioners because there loot is worthless. They have no interest in buying my crafted gear because it is worthless to them.
If you are UO rich and want to spend your gold- thats fine with me. Let the rich players gear up with artifacts and high end imbued gear. Whats wrong with that?
I personally would rather that PvM and crafted items be useful and more valuable. This makes farming and making them more profitable. To me this creates a virtuous cycle: PvM people farm, crafters craft, and reds hunt them- good fun for all involved. The current system cuts faction members out of the community. I have no interest in fighting factioners because there loot is worthless. They have no interest in buying my crafted gear because it is worthless to them.
If you are UO rich and want to spend your gold- thats fine with me. Let the rich players gear up with artifacts and high end imbued gear. Whats wrong with that?
S
Sturdy
Guest
Factions changes are in active development now. It is going to change one way or another. If Siege ends up with a new points system that reduces the prevalence of faction items thats fine with me.
My preference is that they be eliminated. If this is possible, now is the time to discuss it- not after they overhall the whole system.
B
Black magick
Guest
See, it's this misconception that stems a lot of the anti-faction debate. If all you make is lrc suits with 6 mr, yea this is correct. But if you actually made **** that higher end player want, then you'd be fine. You don't seem to get that most players run 3 faction artifacts (assuming mage). What's the rest? Right, crafted gear. BTW, taking away faction arties isn't gonna change anything. The gear the pvpers run isn't gonna change, which isn't gonna bring you business. If anything it takes it away because players will either want to get the **** themselves, or rely on a guild imbuer. Factioners will just faction dye their ****, making it virtually worthless to any non-factioner that gets the loot. Same old story, just more of a pain in the ass to equip for pvp for those that aren't rich.
As long as non-faction arties spawn indefinitely, your argument really doesn't hold much water. The bullies of the shard can hoarde or threaten to hoard all they want, but as long as there is continuous spawn, life is good.
Well, then the rate has to increase 150 fold. The other night GIL did a 4 or 5 trips through the gauntlet, and midnight braces is all that dropped. Whats 4-5 rounds take in time? Im not saying its gonna need to be a drop per mob, or anything, but if someone was to spend a solid 12 hrs doing gauntlet with LRC gear, healing with magery, and letting pets go to town, whats a fair estimate of arties they would receive? Im gonna say about 3-4 to be fair. So if they dont up it to 1 per hour, i cant see it working out well for seige. There just are not the mass amounts of people farming like on prodo.
N49 - Were you around for the Magincia invasion when the cursed arties were introduced? A spot or two with that type of drop rate would be a good place to start. Not every mob there dropped one, but the higher end ones did. The fact that no one can farm in complete safety should support this and it could be the draw that Siege needs. Risk vs. reward.
The Tok arty drop could be about the same, I suppose. Reduce the turn-in to five/major.
ML Arties should be significantly increased
Higher end paragons should have a 50-99% drop rate
Each peerless should have a drop
Each spawn boss should drop a replica
Lvl 6 Maps already drop an artie per chest
Thats about how I envision it playing out, but I wouldn't object to it being somewhat different. As long as we can bring the cost to equip to a reasonable level on this shard, without insurance, I'm good with however the devs want to implement the idea.
The Tok arty drop could be about the same, I suppose. Reduce the turn-in to five/major.
ML Arties should be significantly increased
Higher end paragons should have a 50-99% drop rate
Each peerless should have a drop
Each spawn boss should drop a replica
Lvl 6 Maps already drop an artie per chest
Thats about how I envision it playing out, but I wouldn't object to it being somewhat different. As long as we can bring the cost to equip to a reasonable level on this shard, without insurance, I'm good with however the devs want to implement the idea.
Eliminate faction gear entirely, the whole chest ( which includes faction recall runes ).
Increase the drop rate of arties, but instead of cursed, make them brittle.
If the concern is that they will gank and horde, they can't gank and horde if it is blessed ( assuming you only wear one piece ).
The system is very unbalanced as is. Faction arties are obtained by slaying low level to mid level monsters whereas non faction arties require trips to the Gauntlet or Peerless Bosses.
Dear me, dear me. These threads just make me a little sadder each time. We know they're never going to remove Faction Arties just for siege. I'm not sure why anyone seriously thinks that'll happen. No poll will help that.
I got no problem with pvp. I don't mind it, in fact I want you pvpers to get the best you can get because I like to see people enjoying the game. If we didn't have PvP, I wouldn't have Diablo to annoy. Nothing makes happier than to tease Diablo some way.
But back to the point, I'm no spokesperson and I don't know most of you in great detail. But I like to think I'm realistic. And my brain is telling me that debating over big changes like the removal of faction arties, when an update is coming one day, is a waste of time.
Lowering the silver prices is realistic, and if thats what some people want then the DEVs should be kicked up the ass until they listen to us.
But some of the polls and threads are just unrealistic in the modern game (such as the removal off guard zones thread some time ago, it just won't happen with the current DEV team).
Damn, I just love siege and deep down i love every one of you active players. I don't like seeing Siege this way. I know I haven't played as long as some of you.
I just want people to be realistic, and that some of these changes will just never happen :/
There, I've said my piece! lol
I got no problem with pvp. I don't mind it, in fact I want you pvpers to get the best you can get because I like to see people enjoying the game. If we didn't have PvP, I wouldn't have Diablo to annoy. Nothing makes happier than to tease Diablo some way.
But back to the point, I'm no spokesperson and I don't know most of you in great detail. But I like to think I'm realistic. And my brain is telling me that debating over big changes like the removal of faction arties, when an update is coming one day, is a waste of time.
Lowering the silver prices is realistic, and if thats what some people want then the DEVs should be kicked up the ass until they listen to us.
But some of the polls and threads are just unrealistic in the modern game (such as the removal off guard zones thread some time ago, it just won't happen with the current DEV team).
Damn, I just love siege and deep down i love every one of you active players. I don't like seeing Siege this way. I know I haven't played as long as some of you.
I just want people to be realistic, and that some of these changes will just never happen :/
There, I've said my piece! lol
A
archite666
Guest
I am for the removal of faction arties simply because they limit the interaction in the community.
Argument A says that UO is a item based game and that items are an evil that is required.
I agree.
Argument B says that faction arties reward pvpers only and give factioneers unlimited access to the best gear around.
I agree.
I miss the days when I could actually sell the scrappers that I made to people. The days when I could actually sell 1/2 dci jewels. When farming for arties was actually worth it since heart of the lions were 500k.
You can argue about UO being item based all you want but the real point that should be made is that faction arties completely knocked crafters and farmers out of the picture. Which is exactly why I left prodo. I think part of the majesty of siege is that fact that the pvpers were constantly buying things from the rest of the community. In fact thats how I got my start on siege was buy selling gear to the pvpers.
Argument A says that UO is a item based game and that items are an evil that is required.
I agree.
Argument B says that faction arties reward pvpers only and give factioneers unlimited access to the best gear around.
I agree.
I miss the days when I could actually sell the scrappers that I made to people. The days when I could actually sell 1/2 dci jewels. When farming for arties was actually worth it since heart of the lions were 500k.
You can argue about UO being item based all you want but the real point that should be made is that faction arties completely knocked crafters and farmers out of the picture. Which is exactly why I left prodo. I think part of the majesty of siege is that fact that the pvpers were constantly buying things from the rest of the community. In fact thats how I got my start on siege was buy selling gear to the pvpers.
I disagree. The devs have removed things from Siege before in the name of balance and fairness. The blessed sammy helm and legs come to mind. The ability to bless overpowered items such as the Gypsies headdress is another.
When we requested it, they also gave reds the ability to enter The Heartwood. In other words, they removed that restriction.
I cannot speak for everyone, but I certainly don't have a problem with PvP and I believe most others don't either. The issue is about whats fair and reasonable. In fact, I run a PvP/Faction guild, but is it fair that factioners should have cheap, arties [with higher buffs than everyone elses] that come from a vending machine, while everyone else has to farm the Gauntlet, Peerless, etc for lesser artifacts? Non-factioners PvP as well, but do we really expect them to take the field in lesser, harder to obtain equipment?
In my opinion, that isn't exactly fair.
We love Siege too, we just want it fair and balanced. Further, there are some precedents where the devs have removed certain items for the betterment of the shard and for the sake of balance.
@Kat
You still don't know how faction artifacts were intended to be implemented. Definitely not like they are now. Prices shouldn't have anything to do with them, its the rank. Seriously.
The top 98% of a faction are supposed to be rank 10. With hundreds of inactive faction siege chars, the current faction population falls in that top 2%.
Simply put in code that doesn't count inactive accounts!!!!!
Please read this... http://vboards.stratics.com/uo-siege-perilous/221705-before-voting-forsakens-poll.html
You still don't know how faction artifacts were intended to be implemented. Definitely not like they are now. Prices shouldn't have anything to do with them, its the rank. Seriously.
The top 98% of a faction are supposed to be rank 10. With hundreds of inactive faction siege chars, the current faction population falls in that top 2%.
Simply put in code that doesn't count inactive accounts!!!!!
Please read this... http://vboards.stratics.com/uo-siege-perilous/221705-before-voting-forsakens-poll.html
What happened is that they did away with the ranking system because it was broken and there was no way to purge years and years of inactive players that were clogging up that system. The inability to purge inactive players were causing problems with joining factions. For instance, here on Siege, it happened pretty frequently that no one could join TB because there were a ton of inactive faction players vs. the other factions, yet TB had fewer currently playing, active players than the other 3 factions on Siege. It was a mess. I'm sure you know all that, but sadly, when they came up with this new system, it wasn't as simple as putting in code that doesn't count the inactives.
The whole thing needs to be redone, ranking, point system, etc and they were working on it, but from what I saw when they had it on test, they completely lost their focus. It was a disaster and they have now gone back to the drawing board or have completely ditched the effort from what I can tell.
Test !
Yeah, the current ranking system, even if it didn't count inactives is still pure garbage.
I forget who posted that thread about the new scoring system on TC, but I remember I really liked the idea a lot.
If the fix is going to be a ranking system re-vamp, that is great news!
You agree that cursed arties, tots, and ingreds should drop, correct?
I know you don't play at the moment, but even before you quit, you had to have realized that faction arties were the majority of what kept PvP alive.
No matter how messed up the system is, and how messed up the pricing is, BUT BECAUSE OF HOW MESSED UP SIEGE IS, faction artifacts are the only reason people are still PvPing nightly. Since our new buyback system was put into play, siege has erupted with PvP. At least I've been having a hell of a lot of fun...
So in the mean time, we need to put our differences aside as a community about the faction artifact ordeal. They will be fixed in due time when EA comes out with their new ranking system.
Instead we need to focus as a whole on getting non-faction players the ability to properly suit up for PvM and PvP.
If we need a new poll not including ANYTHING about factions, you should put it up, Kat. Implement the drops again, or not. If we can get 80% to agree on putting it in, we have a good chance that the devs will do so.
I forget who posted that thread about the new scoring system on TC, but I remember I really liked the idea a lot.
If the fix is going to be a ranking system re-vamp, that is great news!
You agree that cursed arties, tots, and ingreds should drop, correct?
I know you don't play at the moment, but even before you quit, you had to have realized that faction arties were the majority of what kept PvP alive.
No matter how messed up the system is, and how messed up the pricing is, BUT BECAUSE OF HOW MESSED UP SIEGE IS, faction artifacts are the only reason people are still PvPing nightly. Since our new buyback system was put into play, siege has erupted with PvP. At least I've been having a hell of a lot of fun...
So in the mean time, we need to put our differences aside as a community about the faction artifact ordeal. They will be fixed in due time when EA comes out with their new ranking system.
Instead we need to focus as a whole on getting non-faction players the ability to properly suit up for PvM and PvP.
If we need a new poll not including ANYTHING about factions, you should put it up, Kat. Implement the drops again, or not. If we can get 80% to agree on putting it in, we have a good chance that the devs will do so.
You can't know, for several years, I was told, Stat Loss was here to stay (normal shards for murderes), even some devs said that, but guess what, Stat Loss is gone and I hope we never will see it again.
I hope factions artifacts will be gone too.
You kind of missed the point of that part. The faction artifacts, regardless of the unfairness to non-factions, are a major part in the mechanics of the faction system. I seriously can't see a DEV making that big a decision to remove them. Not with any possible Faction system update in the pipeline.
Do you honesty think whining will get people to change their mind that they want faction arties gone off siege perilous?
From the looks of this poll MAJORITY wants the factions arties gone permanently...
To me it look like most want them gone
Code:
Make Faction Artifacts Easier to Get (by lowering prices) 11 36.67%
Eliminate Faction Artifacts Entirely (forcing reliance on crafters and PvM drops) 19 63.33%I craft for my vendors and farm to get the resources I need for my crafting.
I was in faction when I was UDL, I did not like it!
I want to PvP in crafted gear and I want to fight players in gear that comes from the spawn or from the crafters.
Faction split up the community, TDO was large and was PvP'ing just before we got the faction artifacts. We was not able to fight against faction artifacts. We then splitted the guild on 2 stones. That was a mistake and killed the guild.
The factions half did not need the crafter/farmer half of the guild.
Cash stole my faction members and the crafters and farmers was left without the PvP'ers they used to serve.
*Smiles to Cash, no hard feelings*
I truely believe the shard is better without faction and all that comes with it but special the factions artifacts are splitting the shard and making it impossible for non faction players to even try to PvP.
We did not have this trouble in the past and alot including me would PvP more if we got rid of this overpowered stuff.
B
Black magick
Guest
Poll has had limited participation, so don't get your hopes up.To me it look like most want them gone
Code:Make Faction Artifacts Easier to Get (by lowering prices) 11 36.67% Eliminate Faction Artifacts Entirely (forcing reliance on crafters and PvM drops) 19 63.33%
I craft for my vendors and farm to get the resources I need for my crafting.
I was in faction when I was UDL, I did not like it!
I want to PvP in crafted gear and I want to fight players in gear that comes from the spawn or from the crafters.
Faction split up the community, TDO was large and was PvP'ing just before we got the faction artifacts. We was not able to fight against faction artifacts. We then splitted the guild on 2 stones. That was a mistake and killed the guild.
I truely believe the shard is better without faction and all that comes with it but special the factions artifacts are splitting the shard and making it impossible for non faction players to even try to PvP.
We did not have this trouble in the past and alot including me would PvP more if we got rid of this overpowered stuff.
The gear you want to pvp in is garbage, and even without faction arties you would STILL get demolished. Your hopes that people will rely more on crafted gear are entirely misguided. Factioners will run the same gear, more or less. Nobody cares about what TDO did in the past, get it through your thick skull, the past doesn't dictate what's good in the present. The game has evolved, and it constantly does. An example would be how Cash was saying he wants to be able to sell scrappers and 1/2 dci jewels again. Unless something big happens scrappers aren't coming back because we have found better ways to fill that spot. 1/2 dci jewels are the same as they've ever been, you're not gonna sell em without faction arties because anyone who cares enough to buy them would no doubt be running with a cursed or blessed orny. I don't know why I'm even bothering because if you actually looked at facts your entire argument would collapse and you'd probably quit out of hopelessness.
I call bull**** on the pvp part too, **** (<--- seriously?) poor excuse. If you actually had any interest in pvp instead of making excuses you could yell in general chat and I'm sure someone would come fight you without faction arties, but you're too busy QQ'ing about how bad the pvp scene is.
Actually, the artifacts themselves have nothing to do with the mechanics of the faction system. With or without faction arties, factions will work just fine. If the donation box were turned off, factions would continue on just as it has for years prior. Furthermore, coding should be fairly simple to disable the boxes. What to do with existing armor would probably require some thought. I'm sure they could be made "decorative" as was done when the PBD issue was resolved and the Siege Bless replaced it.
Regardless, we have fought hard in years past, for balance on Siege Perilous and these artifacts are yet another imbalance that needs to be addressed.
Kat, you should reply to my last post....
Actually, when we moved on, Siege had been dead and saw little to no PvP for nearly a year.
Prior to that, here is what it was like:
-15-30 minutes of fighting until one or both sides became outnumbered and had several people in stat
-30+ minutes of trying to find out who has your armor and whether its available for buyback, what location, who looted this, what about my jewels, what about my imbued stuff, who has my quiver, etc
-Global chat meltdown because player 1's items are not all on one vendor and they are not about to chase down their items on 5 different vendors
-Players ran out of gold or lost too much gold in 1 night to buybacks and logged in frustration
-One side or the other would become out numbered due to frustration/logouts and wouldn't leave the house
-Fighting is pretty much over
I know that Faction artifacts make a wider range of templates available to us, but IMO, they took the fun right out of PvP. We endured months and months on end of what I described above, until there simply wasn't any PvP to be found.
I commend you guys on coming up with a new buyback system! I think you guys showed some great initiative there. I thin its a good short term solution to the frustration, but we both know how tempers fly around here and I think we both know the agreement will eventually break down as it always does between competitive players.
Sadly, after reading the last couple of producers updates, I have a feeling that factions is no longer on their radar. We've been polled to the point that people are probably good and confused by now. *sighs*
Either way, I know we don't have the same point of view, but I have to say that I appreciate being able to have a civil discussion with you on the matter, without the arguing, personal attacks and condescending remarks! Much respect for ya, Crunch!
I was!! lol I was just taking my time!Kat, you should reply to my last post....
Altering an item property on an item is not the same thing as removing it from the game entirely.
In the entire history of UO, the developers have not once, not ever removed a single item or system they've put in this game.
They either tweak it, replace it or leave it as is.
Sorry, but removing these items will never happen.
From the day they were announced I have said the items were the problem. In this particular post I was speaking about buybacks for GOLD. Thanks for failing to notice that.
And as I have mentioned in other posts, there are indeed balance issues.
H
hukor
Guest
turn in systems like spring cleaning are a great way to purge the game of items.
they have have done it in the past to rid the game of excess.
I love the buy back agreement and I wish I had the time to stage my player wars that I had planned in malas.
I haven't played siege in a while except on a friends account.
I intend to activate one only and can't decide which one to do.
one thing is for sure.
we are on the right track and you will see me in game soon.
Hukor.
they have have done it in the past to rid the game of excess.
I love the buy back agreement and I wish I had the time to stage my player wars that I had planned in malas.
I haven't played siege in a while except on a friends account.
I intend to activate one only and can't decide which one to do.
one thing is for sure.
we are on the right track and you will see me in game soon.
Hukor.
-15-30 minutes of fighting until one or both sides became outnumbered and had several people in stat
That's pretty much the story of goal-less PvP on all shards, lol. Trust me, ATL is no different.
-30+ minutes of trying to find out who has your armor and whether its available for buyback, what location, who looted this, what about my jewels, what about my imbued stuff, who has my quiver, etc
I'd say general chat has helped immensely with this. Buybacks are basically required unless you have plenty of backup suits ready. People just need to not be ***** when items are so hard to come by.
-Global chat meltdown because player 1's items are not all on one vendor and they are not about to chase down their items on 5 different vendors
Buybacks are our player-made system of insurance on siege. If siege was fixed, we wouldn't even really need this system.
-Players ran out of gold or lost too much gold in 1 night to buybacks and logged in frustration
Expensive buybacks are due to items being hard to come by. Our new system is really, really helping. It's all we can do until siege is fixed properly... MV has a lot more people now. It's tough fighting them 2v* every night, especially with dismount tamers!!!
-One side or the other would become out numbered due to frustration/logouts and wouldn't leave the house
Just like any other shard, lol
-Fighting is pretty much over
Yep.
Just saying, the introduction of items aren't what ruined siege. The availability of the said items, paired with people who like to lewt and keep lewt (This is why we play siege??) is what is causing the majority of the issues above.
If siege was fixed, players wouldn't have to invent their own insurance policy to make the damn shard playable.
That's pretty much the story of goal-less PvP on all shards, lol. Trust me, ATL is no different.
-30+ minutes of trying to find out who has your armor and whether its available for buyback, what location, who looted this, what about my jewels, what about my imbued stuff, who has my quiver, etc
I'd say general chat has helped immensely with this. Buybacks are basically required unless you have plenty of backup suits ready. People just need to not be ***** when items are so hard to come by.
-Global chat meltdown because player 1's items are not all on one vendor and they are not about to chase down their items on 5 different vendors
Buybacks are our player-made system of insurance on siege. If siege was fixed, we wouldn't even really need this system.
-Players ran out of gold or lost too much gold in 1 night to buybacks and logged in frustration
Expensive buybacks are due to items being hard to come by. Our new system is really, really helping. It's all we can do until siege is fixed properly... MV has a lot more people now. It's tough fighting them 2v* every night, especially with dismount tamers!!!
-One side or the other would become out numbered due to frustration/logouts and wouldn't leave the house
Just like any other shard, lol
-Fighting is pretty much over
Yep.
Just saying, the introduction of items aren't what ruined siege. The availability of the said items, paired with people who like to lewt and keep lewt (This is why we play siege??) is what is causing the majority of the issues above.
If siege was fixed, players wouldn't have to invent their own insurance policy to make the damn shard playable.
Your point about buybacks for GOLD is moot because Siege has always had the hero/evil system in which items were for faction players only. Kinda dumb for you all of a sudden to complain about something that's always been the case.
People really don't see you as an expert on game mechanics... so please elaborate exactly how they are a balance issue.
Please use facts and not your opinions. As an example: a fact would be that UO culture has deemed faction players risking more than non-faction players. An opinion would be whether or not you think faction players risk more.
Your response should be interesting because they are indeed not a balance issue unless obtaining non-faction items are. And if obtaining non-faction items are an issue, then I'm curious to know why fixing the issue involves not fixing what's specifically the issue.
Thanks.
M
MoonglowMerchant
Guest
Good point. Remove DCI from all faction items and we should be good to go.
Wow, that's about as ignorant as it gets.
Lol.
Lol.
S
Sturdy
Guest
Existing items could stay- just make them usable by anyone. They will be so valuable you wont see them on the field (assuming they stats are unchanged)
If someone wants to fight with a 10 million gp suite let them.
Sturdy - I'd rather see the items go the way of the PBD and not be usable.
Draxous - Learn to discuss or debate an issue like an adult, without being condescending and insulting and I may consider responding. Until then, responding to you and others who behave this way is a waste of my time.
Many things need to be addressed:
Mage Weapons - delete ( free 120 points to template without points invested )
Use Best Weapon Skill - delete ( free use of special moves that aren't normally available to your chosen disipline )
Facton gear - delete ( Unbalanced - no risk to obtain compared to non-faction counter parts )
Artificial DCI cap ( cap is 45% but you can wear 70% to negate HLD )
45% needs to be max, no matter how much more you may wear, thus allowing HLD to be useful.
Smoke Bomb formula needs reworking. ( Based on Dex, Ninjitsu, Hiding, and Stealth, instead of just hiding )
Mage Armor - delete ( meditation benefits should require you wear a lesser armour, not allow the best of both worlds )
This is the best post I've seen since my return to stratics! The mage weapon and 70% DCI are even worst problems than faction arties.