Racials and Warriors - The JoAT Nerf

[PlayerSkillFTW]

After being away for about a year and a half, i come back to find out that they nerfed the -Mana Cost on Specials from Human JoAT. Before the nerf, my Macer with 120 Macing/120 Resist/GM Tact/GM Anat/GM Healing/GM Focus/80 Chiv used 20 Mana per Special (Not counting LMC). 120 Wep Skill+JoAT gave enough skill points for -10 Special Cost. Now with the nerf, it's 30 Mana per special. I'd like this nerf to be reverted.

They pretty much killed the practical reasons for being a Human Warrior with the JoAT nerf. Before, the -10 Mana Cost to specials could balance out against the +20 Mana that Elves get, if you do multiple Specials, or especially if you chained them. First special would cost 20 Mana (-10), 2nd special within 3 secs would cost 40 Mana (-20) for a total of 30 Mana being saved over the course of 2 specials, out doing the +20 Mana that Elves get.
Since they made it to where JoAT skills do not affect Special Cost, Elves and Gargoyles make superior Warriors, Mages and Craftsman. Humans make better Harvesters when you're after Leather/Iron Ingots/Plain Wood. Human Warriors and Mages are purely for aesthetics. Here's a comparison of the Racials.

Humans have +2 HP Regen, +60-90 Stone Carry Weight, +10% Resources Harvested, and the nerfed JoAT. Nothing here stands out as being particularly useful to a Warrior. Only thing i've found remotely useful, is the chance to cast Attunement/Gift of Renewal (Which was actually pretty decent with Lvl 6 Arcane Focus), 20.0 Tracking (For PvP) and the 20% chance to hide.

Elves have +20 Mana, +5 Energy Resist Cap, Night Sight, 40.0 Passive Detect Hidden, Harder to Track/Detect, and better chance at extracting special resources. The +20 Mana/+5 Energy Resist Cap is great for any template.

Gargoyles have Berserk (+15% Dam Inc/+3% SDI per 20% Health lost), +5% HCI Cap, +2 Mana Regen, 30.0 Racial Mysticism, 20.0 Racial Throwing, +Chance for Imbuing/Unraveling, and Flight. These racials make them superior Warriors.

I hope they balance out the Races one of these days.

 

[Vertigo]

Welcome back and good luck trying to get that reverted, lol.

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

Yeah, i also think that Chiv and Necro should count towards the -Mana Cost, since Bushido and Ninjitsu do. The JoAT nerf likely came along because of Mages with 120 Wep Skill were getting cheaper specials with it, and they already have a huge mana pool. Lots of Warrior skills/abilities have been nerfed because Mages picked them up too.

 

[GreekHero]

It's called promoting the new templates so that people go buy the expansions/custom characters and support the game... Do not worry in the next expansion when dwarfs will be overpowered your template will be back to normal!

 

[Fink]

The races will never be balanced as long as they keep inventing differences between them.

(But wait, is she talking about UO or real life? omg!)

 

[Uvtha]

Gargs really aren't better warriors for the simple reason that they cant ride am armored swampy. The only thing that is really good is the +5 hci max and maybe the 2 MR, but it doesn't make up for lack of a swampy when it comes to living through the attacks of bosses.

Elves are probably the best warriors honestly, cause they get 5 extra energy resist and free mana.

Humans could use a little something extra though. Man, I would kill for the "tough" trait to be a DCI boost, like gargs have with deadly aim.

 

[Harlequin]

Yeah, i also think that Chiv and Necro should count towards the -Mana Cost, since Bushido and Ninjitsu do. The JoAT nerf likely came along because of Mages with 120 Wep Skill were getting cheaper specials with it, and they already have a huge mana pool. Lots of Warrior skills/abilities have been nerfed because Mages picked them up too.

If I remember correctly, it wasn't mages, it was the moving shot archers. I will see if I can dig up the thread. Wasn't a very popular nerf, but they did not revert.

For mages to activate the specials, they still needed to have the requisite 70/90 weaponskill and tactics. So it isn't a very useful template even with human JOAT mana reduction.

 

[Llewen]

They pretty much killed the practical reasons for being a Human Warrior with the JoAT nerf.

Only thing i've found remotely useful, is the chance to cast Attunement/Gift of Renewal (Which was actually pretty decent with Lvl 6 Arcane Focus), 20.0 Tracking (For PvP) and the 20% chance to hide.

You are seriously underselling the ability to cast Attunement and Gift of Renewal. Both of those can be extremely effective if used intelligently. And the bonus to weight limits can be very useful as well.

Lots of Warrior skills/abilities have been nerfed because Mages picked them up too.

If I remember correctly, it wasn't mages, it was the moving shot archers. I will see if I can dig up the thread. Wasn't a very popular nerf, but they did not revert.

Harlequin is correct, this had nothing to do with mages, and everything to do with seriously op archer templates. This change was a good one and pvp is more balanced than I've ever seen it right now.

 

[Basara]

Yeah, i also think that Chiv and Necro should count towards the -Mana Cost, since Bushido and Ninjitsu do. The JoAT nerf likely came along because of Mages with 120 Wep Skill were getting cheaper specials with it, and they already have a huge mana pool. Lots of Warrior skills/abilities have been nerfed because Mages picked them up too.

As noted before, Mages haven't been able to invoke special weapon moves without real weapon skill for years before the JOAT nerf (if ever).

On the other hand, I do think it was BS to nerf melee characters like my own, in order to stop an archery abuse. The more fair way of handling it SHOULD have been to increase the mana cost of that archery special move (or that special move for archery weapons only) by 10 or 15 mana.

And what's truly laughable is I asked about adding Chivalry to the list, and the response I got from an apparently clueless dev that "Chivalry is a spellcasting skill, not a combat skill like Bushido & Ninjitsu."

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??????

 

[Old Man of UO]

...
And what's truly laughable is I asked about adding Chivalry to the list, and the response I got from an apparently clueless dev that "Chivalry is a spellcasting skill, not a combat skill like Bushido & Ninjitsu."

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??????

Not all Developers actually played UO?

 

[Harlequin]

Here's one of the threads that discussed the issue with issue with moving shot:

http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=173671



And one of the threads that discussed the impact of the JOAT nerf:

http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?p=1596064



I converted my warrior back to a human for JOAT and have remained a human even after the nerf due to the other benefits of JOAT. MR 3, hiding, wraith form, enough spirit speak for curse weapon to last a couple of secs, magery to cast protection (yes, a warrior in protection), etc etc

I can understand the nerf, but still, I wished they found some other way to balance moving shots and other specials that people tend to chain like AI.

But my idea was something like triple mana and quadruple mana if the player kept chaining it. After thinking over, this would have hurt even worse. At least the JOAT nerf can be countered by getting other skills like parry, bushido, ninjitsu etc

So the JOAT nerf was still better than any half-cocked idea I could think of.

 

[Picus at the office]

I converted my warrior back to a human for JOAT and have remained a human even after the nerf due to the other benefits of JOAT. MR 3, hiding, wraith form, enough spirit speak for curse weapon to last a couple of secs, magery to cast protection (yes, a warrior in protection), etc etc.

I've done the same but mine were human to start with. I've never thought about protection before but I'm thinking my stealth gimp might be running that tonight for the no fiz wolf form.

 

[Splup]

I converted my warrior back to a human for JOAT and have remained a human even after the nerf due to the other benefits of JOAT. MR 3, hiding, wraith form, enough spirit speak for curse weapon to last a couple of secs, magery to cast protection (yes, a warrior in protection), etc etc

This.

And that 20 medit+20 focus also boosts the effects of the MR on your suit. Also 20 poisoning can be handy sometimes, also tracking. Being also able to use 5th circle magery spells from scrolls sometimes if needed is nice.

 

[A Rev]

Lets be honest the worst part of this whole thing was not the nerf.

The only bit which i cannot stand and / or understand is stealth being considered a combat skill.

The actual "nerf" makes no difference to any of my dexxers, who i rarely play, no affect to my sampire. None to my archer. None even to the Dexxer tamer.

I have not noticed a single difference since the "nerf". Mind you that could be because i use bushido on alot of them.

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

Yeah, i also think that Chiv and Necro should count towards the -Mana Cost, since Bushido and Ninjitsu do. The JoAT nerf likely came along because of Mages with 120 Wep Skill were getting cheaper specials with it, and they already have a huge mana pool. Lots of Warrior skills/abilities have been nerfed because Mages picked them up too.

This is why spell channeling weapons shouldn't exist.

 

[Picus at the office]

It's not the spell channeling weapons where the issue lies but the current mass imbued plainsword or wands which negate the whole need for a weapon skill and free up 120 points, sigh how my dexxer would abuse this.

 

[Splup]

Yeah, i also think that Chiv and Necro should count towards the -Mana Cost, since Bushido and Ninjitsu do. The JoAT nerf likely came along because of Mages with 120 Wep Skill were getting cheaper specials with it, and they already have a huge mana pool. Lots of Warrior skills/abilities have been nerfed because Mages picked them up too.

No, it came along cause archers in PvP were able to chain specials like hell without investing any extra skill points in combat skills. Tactmage wouldnt give a crap if he gets the -10 mana cost or not, they don't chain specials. They cast and use the one hit special in a combo.

 

[A Rev]

It's not the spell channeling weapons where the issue lies but the current mass imbued plainsword or wands which negate the whole need for a weapon skill and free up 120 points, sigh how my dexxer would abuse this.

Helloooooooo

Use Best Weapon skill?!?

Does exactly the same thing...lol

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

But UBWS wasn't available "on demand," and you'd need pretty darn good mods on it for you to use it.

 

[A Rev]

But UBWS wasn't available "on demand," and you'd need pretty darn good mods on it for you to use it.

What the hell you talking about!?!

Its exactly the same property weight as SC, which also requires mage weapon oh and probably FC.

So again...wth are you talking about??

I have many
30ssi
ubws
50hld
50hlight
25(ish) DI

 

[Picus at the office]

Helloooooooo

Use Best Weapon skill?!?

Does exactly the same thing...lol

What? UBWS lets me run around with which skill in the same fashion as a -(skill point) mage weap lets me. At no point in the past did UBWS let a person not have to have a weapon skill it might have let me use a mace/sword or fencing weapon but I still had to have the base skill.

I might have misread the joke in here, if so whoops....

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I think it would be great if they reworked the way race affects game play. The way alot of the things are now should be more based on the skill itself rather than on the race.

Mana bonuses should be a direct affect of the skill. For example: a swordsman at 100 would use more concentration than a swordsman at 120.

So, if a swordsman uses a special move, he should have a lower mana cost bonus given to him directly by the skill not by the race. This should go above the cap of lower mana cost or add to your lower mana cost.

I would rather see things that could be balanced out by the player for racial bonuses unless they exceed the cap or allow for that cap to be raised. For example: 160 strength on a gargoyle, an elf with a hit chance above cap and only with a bow.

I could see slight advantages or differences but when it comes to basic moves that are needed by both to be balanced it makes you wonder if they should be made differently.

Like another way it could be done is instead of looking at a race as having a permanent advantage. For example: To say all gargoyles or all elves, just doesn't seem right because then your saying an elf could only do this or a gargoyle could only do that. They should be equal but have a chance of the increased accuracy, although I could understand the night sight.

 

[A Rev]

What? UBWS lets me run around with which skill in the same fashion as a -(skill point) mage weap lets me. At no point in the past did UBWS let a person not have to have a weapon skill it might have let me use a mace/sword or fencing weapon but I still had to have the base skill.

I might have misread the joke in here, if so whoops....

Let me put it simply for you.

A mage requires 120 points of magery to gain 120 points of defensive weapon skill(cant really be used offensively)

A dexxer requires 120 points of weapon skill to gain 360points of defensive AND offensive weapon skill (they can use any of the 3 melee type weapons)

So both invest 120 points and a dexxer get way more out of it!

 

[Lefty]

If I remember correctly, it wasn't mages, it was the moving shot archers. I will see if I can dig up the thread. Wasn't a very popular nerf, but they did not revert.

For mages to activate the specials, they still needed to have the requisite 70/90 weaponskill and tactics. So it isn't a very useful template even with human JOAT mana reduction.

Yes that nerf was publish 46. That publish was orchestrated by Guildmule (a pvm player and Jeremy (UO Community Coordinator) over email. It was Guildmules vision to make UO a more class type system. The changes were done and cemented before the PvP focus group was even organized, which by the way didn't effect any changes. The focus group was no more than an audience.

At the time everyone just wanted damage caps and that was it. 46 killed a lot of templates and fun play for both mages and warriors.

JCBuilder probably has a better memory than I, but I do still have some stingy emails from Jeremy when she canned the first PvP focus group.

 

[DarkScripture]

Helloooooooo

Use Best Weapon skill?!?

Does exactly the same thing...lol

No You can not use Evade with UBWS

 

[DarkScripture]

I have many
30ssi
ubws
50hld
50hlight
25(ish) DI

This can't be the weight of an item like that would be over 450. And is you add a gm weapon in the mix you lose a mod to DI goes up even more. COULD get luck with a val hammer but so few of those weapons turn out with the correct mix of mods. (Going to double check my statement now.)

I think Mage Weapons are ruining the game too. My mages run wrestling. I guess it's from playing old style before - mage weapons

 

[DarkScripture]

110 = SSi 30%
140 = UBWS
130 = HLD 50%
140 = Hit Lightning 50%
040 = 20% DI
560 Total.
This is not something that would be on a common roll nor is it imbue-able.

JoaT is fine how it is now.. Leave it be.

 

[puni666]

This change was a good one and pvp is more balanced than I've ever seen it right now.

Yeah it was. I personally think they need to remove stealth from reducing mana costs also or put death strike on the double mana cost timer like weapon special moves. Ninja's are running rampant spamming 7+ specials in pvp.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

Humans were overpowered, and needed to be nurfed.

 

[Llewen]

110 = SSi 30%
140 = UBWS
130 = HLD 50%
140 = Hit Lightning 50%
040 = 20% DI
560 Total.
This is not something that would be on a common roll nor is it imbue-able.

JoaT is fine how it is now.. Leave it be.

73 = 30 SSI with 10 free from enhancing
140 = UBWS
130 = HLD 50%
140 = Hit Lightning 50%
16 = 28% damage increase on an old school exceptional bow (20 is free)

499 Total

It certainly is possible...

 

[Uvtha]

Let me put it simply for you.

A mage requires 120 points of magery to gain 120 points of defensive weapon skill(cant really be used offensively)

A dexxer requires 120 points of weapon skill to gain 360points of defensive AND offensive weapon skill (they can use any of the 3 melee type weapons)

So both invest 120 points and a dexxer get way more out of it!

You...do know that magery has spells right? So that means you get spells, and the same defense/tohit as someone with the weapon skill

The ONLY thing ubws does is let you pick different weapons. Swords mace and fence are all functionally the exact same skill.

Im not anti mage weapon, your argument is just nonsensical.

 

[puni666]

Let me put it simply for you.

A mage requires 120 points of magery to gain 120 points of defensive weapon skill(cant really be used offensively)

A dexxer requires 120 points of weapon skill to gain 360points of defensive AND offensive weapon skill (they can use any of the 3 melee type weapons)

So both invest 120 points and a dexxer get way more out of it!

Umm... A dexer would have to invest 90 more skill points in tactics to get both special moves to work from any weapon and any damage output of any sort. Then on top of it they can't heal with out investing more points in something else. Magery allows a player to heal(among other things) and defend themselves(if they have a -mage weapon on). I don't get how you think they get more out of there skill investment.