Easy Design vs. Hard Design : can't there be a balance in between ??

[dragonthorn]

Depending on shard, you can easily buy a 4.0 bane between 3-12 mil, post in the tamers forum, you may get a free one for your efforts, but if you wish solely on taming your own 4.0 you might be trying for a long time, it really does take awhile to get 4.0+, and it might be wiser to bite it and buy one if you are so worried about the event ending and not having a nice bane.

 

[popps]

And, I think this is the frustration to see someone with 80 skill who has stacked rings, bracelets and magic hats to achieve the same end result that someone has worked years for and I think the issue even though it's not seen on the surface, directly affects the player in a negative way.

When I talk about a more "linear" progression to the scarcity of the tames spawn, that also is to be considered.

As of now, if could be extremely difficult and time consuming for a given player to get a good pet which, nonetheless, will be just a little better than an average one.

This, of course, saved the exception of the player who might bump into it the very first taming attempt (which is though so rare we can cross it out, I would imagine).

So, eventually, because of the current design, we will have 2 players having very similar pets but which where obtained through a much different level of dedication and effort.

Often I hear from people the argument that more work and more persistance should lead to higher and better rewards.

Well, when it comes to tameables I have the impression that it ain't this way.

A LOT more effort, work and dedication does not produce a pet that is a LOT better........

And, I personally do not think this as right.
I would much more favour linear increments of difficulty in the spawn of a better pet tied with same linear bettering of the tameable's stats.

Basically, the end of the current lottery system.

 

[popps]

The problem here is that the word 'Game' implies some random effect on the outcome. It you build something that is completely deterministic, people will likely do it, but it will become boring after the 2nd or 3rd pass through the same actions.

The goal of game design is to keep you engaged because the outcome remains uncertain.

If we were to make it so a capped warrior in UO wins every PvM fight, how fun would that be? Player actions and some degree of chance must play a role to keep it entertaining. Therefore hours played and effort expended cannot always automatically result in success or it is no longer a game in the classical sense.

But that can also back-fire since eventually, players may question themselves whether it might be worth it or not to put that much of an effort into something when the outcome will still be unpredictable and uncertain.........

Just as an example, would anyone work a job full time when the salary at the end of the week ain't for sure but can fail through by a certain probability ?

Time is an assett. Perhaps even the most important assett.

So, investing one's own time into something if that something is not bound to produce results might eventually get the individual to switch to something else where the assett (time) is warranted better and more secure recognition.......

Bringing this reasoning to Ultima Online, I think there were some reasons to change the Doom artifacts drop engine into a points' system, weren't there ?

 

[popps]

Yes, I agree, games must have some type of affect of change, like real life does but on the other hand it should not be extreme.

For example: In real life, if your having a boat race and they happen to be sailboats, there is a chance there will be no wind and there is a chance that a boat will move more quickly because of a gust of wind.

The problem that I have with this as being random or being lucky, I think, is an opinion. So, when you design it you don't just use a number as the factor of probability.

It's kind of like picturing, Pit Fall. You grab the vine, you swing over the pit and then you jump down on the other side but there is a feeling that somehow, right when your about to land, this pit is moved and you fall into it.

This is what I have trouble with understanding. Do we call this random or is the randomness of this moving, actually, not random at all but simply intended to force you to go into the pit, rather than actually to achieve something.

For example: A skilled lumberjack who swings an axe at a tree, is not likely to miss, whereas a 2 year old child, could very likely cut off his fingers or toes. So, one looks at it as being necessary to have the skill be the factor, where the other feels it needs to be random.

Well, if the RNG random generator in Ultima Online was truly random, then probably much of this talking about issues like this would never happen.

The problem is, that over the years many players have grown uneasy with the RNG and feel that it ain't that much random at all.

Time back I read talks about looking into ity and fixing it but I have not heard anything any more. An update here would be most welcome I guess......

 

[popps]

If the max rating is 5, the mean rating you will get will be 2.5. If more than 50% of the bane dragons are above 2.5, then you already shouldn't have anything to complain about.

Exactly, and it shows how coding has so much a vital role in what spawn.

What I am trying to say, is that the spawn of bane Dragons have been coded in such a way that the bulk of what spawns is always above the average, hardly ever below.

Why not do the same and adjust coding so that, even at higher stats, slightly better pets are only slightly more difficult to spawn, NOT extremely more difficult ?

I mean, somewhat tie the increased difficulty with the increased quality but in a linear way, not scalar.

Also, note that the pet calculator is just a guideline. It also takes into consideration the skills.

Most of the skills (those below 100) can be trained up. Resists are far more important, next comes hp, then stats. Even stats that have a potential max of 125 or lower can be ignored since you can train it up.

If you purely rely on the pet calculator, you might have already overlooked many that have a 4.0+ potential.

Well, the pet calculator does also have the option to rate pets untrained. I am referring to these ratings which the player cannot modify and, therefore, which most matter when determining is a spawned tame is a keeper or not.

 

[Fink]

Besides, I think it is also about balancing the game.

I mean, how that much better a 4.0+ Bane Dragon really better is than, say, a 3.8 ??

Sure, it is better but not THAT much better.

I think you answered your own question there. Is it worth spending days killing hundreds of dragons for 0.2 that, as you say, isn't that much better? Only the individual player can answer that, but it sounds like you don't happen to think so.

Bear in mind the whole pet rating system is invented by players, not developers. Hence it is based on speculative figures at best, and wildly exaggerated boasting at worst. Are the developers' calculations to be held to arbitrary standards decided by players?

Plus realise any rating system made up of several random attributes is hardly going to have a linear probability for worst-to-best outcomes. It's likely a fairly steep bell curve as those individual stats themselves are possibly non-linear too.

You will more often get a mediocre dragon than a really bad or really good one. Just be thankful when you settle for your almost-best 3.8 that at least spectacularly unfortunate examples are much rarer.

 

[Amber Moon]

Popps, I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that when this game was developed, the variability of stats, skills, and resists generated was not for the sake of taming.

It was to provide some variability, and therefore the illusion of realism, to fights against the these monsters.

The game has no way to know in advance if you and any other players intent is to kill it or to tame it.

You might note that the skill required to tame a given monster is not a range but a static number the same regardless of the stats. That illusion of reality for taming is the roll you get when the game compares your taming skill to that number.

The perceived value of higher skills etc. as a tamed animal is entirely something the players overlay on the system, not something that was ever developer intent.

Now one way to address your complaint would be to make the required taming scale based upon some scoring mechanism like the pet calculator.
How well do you think people would like it if the best pets were only tamable by tamers with the the highest relative skill? Sure it sounds fair but I am not so sure it makes taming more fun and entertaining. That would be, after all, the goal.

 

[popps]

Now one way to address your complaint would be to make the required taming scale based upon some scoring mechanism like the pet calculator.
How well do you think people would like it if the best pets were only tamable by tamers with the the highest relative skill? Sure it sounds fair but I am not so sure it makes taming more fun and entertaining. That would be, after all, the goal.

Well, definately I think that only tamers who put an effort in raising up their REAL skill should be able to tame new pets, even better with increased stats.

Sure, all players with skill items should be able to own them and hunt with them but the source should only be tamers who actually put an effort and worked hard for their real skill.

Well, with SOTs working hard for a skill does not sound much a possible thing to say, does it ?

Nonetheless, even considering SOTs, people who raised their skill using them did it as a hefty cost and perhaps, it would still justify to have only tamers with REAL skill as high be the ones who could tame new pets.

 

[Amber Moon]

Gee, it sure sounds fun to check a pet calculator for each tame I am attempting as I train up my taming. Certainly taming training is too fast already.

rolleyes: Someone is not wearing their developer cap and thinking through consequences....

 

[Lord Chaos]

The problem here is that the word 'Game' implies some random effect on the outcome. It you build something that is completely deterministic, people will likely do it, but it will become boring after the 2nd or 3rd pass through the same actions.

The goal of game design is to keep you engaged because the outcome remains uncertain.

For some things yes, where you are competing. But some things should be deterministic and some already are, like skill training, you *will* get to 120 in skill if you keep working and have read a powerscroll.

The same with imbuing.

If we were to make it so a capped warrior in UO wins every PvM fight, how fun would that be? Player actions and some degree of chance must play a role to keep it entertaining. Therefore hours played and effort expended cannot always automatically result in success or it is no longer a game in the classical sense.

Ah again, this is a competition, PvM and PvP is you competing against your foe and theres a certain degree of randomness to what happens. Though some templates like Sampires win every fight.

 

[Harlequin]

If the max rating is 5, the mean rating you will get will be 2.5. If more than 50% of the bane dragons are above 2.5, then you already shouldn't have anything to complain about.

Exactly, and it shows how coding has so much a vital role in what spawn.

What I am trying to say, is that the spawn of bane Dragons have been coded in such a way that the bulk of what spawns is always above the average, hardly ever below.

Why not do the same and adjust coding so that, even at higher stats, slightly better pets are only slightly more difficult to spawn, NOT extremely more difficult ?

I mean, somewhat tie the increased difficulty with the increased quality but in a linear way, not scalar.

Let me perhaps illustrate this with an analogy.

You throw a fifty-sided die 10 times. The absolute max total you can get is 500 if you roll a perfect 50 all 10 times. The average is 250.

I hope when put like that, there's no argument over how difficult it now seems to get a perfect 500. That's what a 5.0 score means in pet calculator.

A 4.0 would mean getting a total of 400 (pet calculator does weighted calculations, so it's a bit more complex, but we'll start simple atm). In the dice throws equivalent, this means you need to roll a 40 on average for each throw.

The more times you throw the 50 sided dice, the more you will realize that you tend to get 25 on average. So far so good?

Your initial frustration and desire is equivalent to getting 400+ within 200 tries so that you can spend time with your family.

Can this happen? Yes, of course. Is it likely to happen? I'm afraid not.

There are 3 ways to skew this curve.

1) Reduce the ranges
ie, Instead of HP that can range from 558 to 648, have it range from 640-648. But pet calculator will adjust for this, so the rating is still only a guideline. And people will still complain that their 644 HP pet is lousy because it scored only a 2.5 in the calculator

2) Play with loaded dice
ie Have 40s come up more often. Kind of defeats the point of an RNG

3) Get a bonus
ie Add 15 to every roll, but will not bring the total above 50. This ultimately is no different to reducing the ranges like in option 1. However, a case can be made for this - say every 10 real skill in taming gives a 5% bonus that can be added to the range

Also, note that the pet calculator is just a guideline. It also takes into consideration the skills.

Most of the skills (those below 100) can be trained up. Resists are far more important, next comes hp, then stats. Even stats that have a potential max of 125 or lower can be ignored since you can train it up.

If you purely rely on the pet calculator, you might have already overlooked many that have a 4.0+ potential.

Well, the pet calculator does also have the option to rate pets untrained. I am referring to these ratings which the player cannot modify and, therefore, which most matter when determining is a spawned tame is a keeper or not.

Yes, there is an option for rating the pets untrained. Do you know what this option actually does?

Untrained pets (fresh tames) will be compared to the max resists and stats at birth

That means for stats that has a max potential lower than 125, it will still rate it based on a max of 125. Now, be very careful with this because you could be overlooking an otherwise awesome pet because 1 of the beginning stat is low and dragging down the scores. A stat like dex for the bane dragon. A stat can ultimately be trained to 125.

And if you key in skills, they are also going to screw up your search for an awesome pet in the same way. Because skills lower than 100 will ultimately cap at GM. For skills higher than gm, the cap will be reduced by 10% after taming. That means even a skill at 110 pre-tame will be be reduced to below GM. But I can't remember if there was a patch that allowed you to train it back to the original >100 level.

Now, the author of pet calculator has already done a wonderful job of weighting it to put more emphasis in resists, then HP, then skills. But always remember it's a guideline.

For an uber pet, disregard all stats and skills that can ultimately be trained to it's normal max.

If you really insist on basing your selection using this tool, you might want to use the trained pet option and put in the max values for all stats that can be trained. This will allow you to better gauge the pet at it's full potential.

 

[Llewen]

I had no clue it was such a daunting and almost impossible task.

I thought it difficult to get, but not THAT difficult......

Take it from someone who has spent hundreds of hours farming for all kinds of pets, it is that difficult. But it's something I enjoy, so I keep doing it. And every once in a while you find something really special. Until that pet calculator came around very few people had a clear idea of exactly how difficult it is to find a really high end pet. If they changed that, I'd be very upset, as it is one of my chief pleasures in the game.

If you really insist on basing your selection using this tool, you might want to use the trained pet option and put in the max values for all stats that can be trained. This will allow you to better gauge the pet at it's full potential.

/this

I never enter values for untrained pets, by that I mean I always choose the trained option and even if they are untrained I enter their values for what they would be trained. It's pretty pointless any other way. Who cares whether your pet's dex is 10 or 124, if they are both going to train up to 125?

 

[popps]

Let me perhaps illustrate this with an analogy.

You throw a fifty-sided die 10 times. The absolute max total you can get is 500 if you roll a perfect 50 all 10 times. The average is 250.

I hope when put like that, there's no argument over how difficult it now seems to get a perfect 500. That's what a 5.0 score means in pet calculator.

A 4.0 would mean getting a total of 400 (pet calculator does weighted calculations, so it's a bit more complex, but we'll start simple atm). In the dice throws equivalent, this means you need to roll a 40 on average for each throw.

The more times you throw the 50 sided dice, the more you will realize that you tend to get 25 on average. So far so good?

Your initial frustration and desire is equivalent to getting 400+ within 200 tries so that you can spend time with your family.

Can this happen? Yes, of course. Is it likely to happen? I'm afraid not.

There are 3 ways to skew this curve.

1) Reduce the ranges
ie, Instead of HP that can range from 558 to 648, have it range from 640-648. But pet calculator will adjust for this, so the rating is still only a guideline. And people will still complain that their 644 HP pet is lousy because it scored only a 2.5 in the calculator

2) Play with loaded dice
ie Have 40s come up more often. Kind of defeats the point of an RNG

3) Get a bonus
ie Add 15 to every roll, but will not bring the total above 50. This ultimately is no different to reducing the ranges like in option 1. However, a case can be made for this - say every 10 real skill in taming gives a 5% bonus that can be added to the range





Yes, there is an option for rating the pets untrained. Do you know what this option actually does?



That means for stats that has a max potential lower than 125, it will still rate it based on a max of 125. Now, be very careful with this because you could be overlooking an otherwise awesome pet because 1 of the beginning stat is low and dragging down the scores. A stat like dex for the bane dragon. A stat can ultimately be trained to 125.

And if you key in skills, they are also going to screw up your search for an awesome pet in the same way. Because skills lower than 100 will ultimately cap at GM. For skills higher than gm, the cap will be reduced by 10% after taming. That means even a skill at 110 pre-tame will be be reduced to below GM. But I can't remember if there was a patch that allowed you to train it back to the original >100 level.

Now, the author of pet calculator has already done a wonderful job of weighting it to put more emphasis in resists, then HP, then skills. But always remember it's a guideline.

For an uber pet, disregard all stats and skills that can ultimately be trained to it's normal max.

If you really insist on basing your selection using this tool, you might want to use the trained pet option and put in the max values for all stats that can be trained. This will allow you to better gauge the pet at it's full potential.

Well well well, you effectively made my search for a good Bane Dragon quite more complicated now.....

If the pet calculator is only indicative, and one has to also consider skills, whether at spawn they are above GM or not (all of them ?), then yes, probably over the hundreds of Bane Dragons I killed there were some good ones....

Problem is, I am not sure how to factor in the skills in evaluating the good or bad pet.

You mention skills at spawn above GM but the problem is, that upon taming them skills get reduced.

So, when looking at a freshly spawned pet it is kinda hard to figure whether the tames pet will end up with skills below or above 100......

So, bottom line is, HOW can a player look for that good pet if I may ask ?

Do I need a Ph.D. in computer science or statistics to just figure out which tameable would be a keeper and which not ??

 

[popps]

I never enter values for untrained pets, by that I mean I always choose the trained option and even if they are untrained I enter their values for what they would be trained. It's pretty pointless any other way. Who cares whether your pet's dex is 10 or 124, if they are both going to train up to 125?

So the best advice is to click the trained pet option and enter 125 for dexterity ?

What about Intelligence though ? Does it also raise up to 160 through training even if it spawns at a lower one ?

And strength ? Is that the same for strength ? The max is 552 but all that spawn are quite below that. Should I enter in the calculator 552 as well ??

Lastly, how should I deal with the skills ?

Of course, I would much more prefer to end up with a pet with as many skills above 100 as I could. But how should I figure out as in regards to skill which are bound to stay above 100 and which not ?

Thanks.

 

[Llewen]

If the pet calculator is only indicative, and one has to also consider skills, whether at spawn they are above GM or not (all of them ?), then yes, probably over the hundreds of Bane Dragons I killed there were some good ones....

None of the bane dragons' skills that we are aware of will train up to over 100, so you don't need to worry about skills when farming for a good one.

So the best advice is to click the trained pet option and enter 125 for dexterity ?

What about Intelligence though ? Does it also raise up to 160 through training even if it spawns at a lower one ?

Any stat that is under 125 before taming will train up to 125 on a bane dragon. For most of the four slot and higher pets their hit points, str and dex will be halved at taming, so if a stat is under 125 after taming it will train up to 125. So if a stat is going to be under 125 after it is tamed you don't need to worry about it when farming.

So with bane dragons the only stat that doesn't matter when you are farming for it is dex. For any stat that will be above 125 after taming that will be its cap, so you won't be able to train it any higher than it is right after taming, so you want to look for high str and high dex on a good bane dragon. How important that is to you will depend on what you intend primarily to use it for.

 

[popps]

Any stat that is under 125 before taming will train up to 125 on a bane dragon. For most of the four slot and higher pets their hit points, str and dex will be halved at taming, so if a stat is under 125 after taming it will train up to 125. So if a stat is going to be under 125 after it is tamed you don't need to worry about it when farming.

Hold on a sec.

You say "str and dex will be halved at taming"....... not intelligence ?

So intelligence (and, therefore, mana...) will stay what it is when freshly spawned and untamed ?

Also, the strength can spawn, untamed, up to 552 points.

Does this mean that upon taming it will reduce (strength...) by half ?
So, even a maxed out pet at 552 untames will end up with only 276 strength when tamed ?

So, a tamed Bane Dragon at most can have 276 strength ?

So with bane dragons the only stat that doesn't matter when you are farming for it is dex. For any stat that will be above 125 after taming that will be its cap, so you won't be able to train it any higher than it is right after taming, so you want to look for high str and high dex on a good bane dragon. How important that is to you will depend on what you intend primarily to use it for.

Well, I have still not understood what type of a pet is the Bane Dragon.

Does it mostly fight using wrestling ? Does it use magery much ?

Because in the first case I'd say a high strength one would be more important while in the second case the Intelligence as high as possible (more mana) will matter more.

Which is the case ? What type of a fighter is the Bane Dragon ?

 

[Stupid Miner]

The problem is, I had no clue of how hard it had been coded (because code DOES have quite a bit to do with how hard it was coded for the numbers of a pet to match up....) and I kept saying to myself that the next spawning Bane Dragon would be the right one.

It's actually not the code's fault. It's the fault of the person who wrote the formula for the power rating of pets.
She wrote it so that 4.0 is really rare.

 

[Llewen]

You say "str and dex will be halved at taming"....... not intelligence ?

So intelligence (and, therefore, mana...) will stay what it is when freshly spawned and untamed ?

The bane dragon is a three slot pet, it's stats don't change after taming. So what you see is what you get when you lore it, except for dex which is below 125 so it will train up to 125 after taming.

 

[Harlequin]

As mentioned, stats wise, since bane dragons doesn't spawn with higher than 125 Dex, just put in 125 if you are using pet calculator.

Btwn Str and Int, int is more important for a bane dragon since it uses mana. Str at 200+ levels doesn't really help it do that much more damage.

It is more of a pvp pet like dread warhorses except it has a poison based breath attack. Good to prevent healing. So melee damage is less impt compared to ranged spell/breath damage imho. Players are rarely going to stand around and tank your pet like npc mobs.

Skill wise, skills above gm will have their max cap reduced by 10%. The only skill a bane has above gm pre tame is tactics. Maxes out at 110. Post taming, this gets reduced to 99.0 and I believe can only be trained up to gm. (I thought I remember a publish that changed this, but couldn't find it, so someone correct me if I am wrong).

That means all its skills including tactics after taming can be trained up to 100 only. Plug in 100 for all skills in the calculator.

That leaves the most impt stats that you can't train to be resists and hp. Plug in in actual values for these.

This will give you a much better indicator of your bane's max potential.

I stress again, use pet calculator as a guideline. The author did a good job and even weighted the important stats. It is a very useful tool for comparing pets, but I don't use it because I just manually look at the resists and hp. After a while, your brain recognizes the patterns automatically. Don't need a degree in rocket science. If you are unsure, ask (but avoid making posts sound like a complain, though I admit, these do get more responses) There are always people here that will be happy to help out the rest of the community if someone has a question.

But you do need to know how the game works with its mechanics and if you use other tools, the mechanics of how those work.