Should EA Ban RMT in UO? Why or Why Not??

[Lady Storm]

Can you elaberate how that was so blatently false info please?

Thanks

Thunderz

Very well.

Well ....... originaly you couldnt sell anything from uo. GM's got wind of it they put the foot down. So the first year many got baned for it, and up to about year 3 they were hot on account sales being done.

This is patently false. When Richard Garriott discovered a burgeoning after-market for UO pixels, he considered it a novel and intriguing side effect of his "grand social experiment." At no time in the history of UO has RMT been a bannable offense. Period.

Later on Ebay was the ticket to buy anything UO.

I will grant that this sentence, when taken out of context, is technically correct.

With that stoped after years of bickering EA got them to stop selling UO and other games joined in.

RMT on eBay was not stopped because EA told them to, and UO was not the front-runner in stopping RMT on eBay. eBay stopped the sale of virtual goods because so many games (especially World of Warcraft) have banned RMT, and thus items from those games being sold on eBay would be a legal liability. The burden of differentiating between items from games where RMT is banned and items from games where RMT is not banned would be too great for eBay to manage, so they went with the easy solution: ban the sale of all virtual items for all games no matter what.

I have talked to Costomer Support in '98 when I was given an account by a player who was about 1 hair shy of perma ban for very just causes. It was a child of 15 who owned the account and was in deep legal trouble for actions in uo that went out of game to the RL. That account wouldnt have been transferable 1 month prior I was told and the CS was very hesatant to transfer the account to me due to the prior rules on sales/transfers of accounts.

Secondly ON EBAY: Ebay sold UO houses, gold, etc.. this you agree? Well on the web and news here in calif was a report on the big sales of pixel houses costing hundreds of real dollars. It was even reported once here on stratics about the report.

Ebay stopped the sales of anything pixel when it was rumored that many game companys were consulting the law for suits against Ebay for selling their property. As you know: WE DONT OWN OUR ACCOUNTS EA/MYTHIC DOES. PERIOD END OF QUOTE! If you doubt me read your TOS. WOW EQ UO DoaC etc all the TOS's say the SAME. This was sent to me by Ebay in e mail when a purchase was haulted due to this change.

Cogniac, I served the people of UO, and beleave you me I read the TOS. Signed my name to honor it. SIR you have made one Blue Robe very angry.

 

[Lady Storm]

As for this posting.
EA should expand their sales and such, if it gets the game more players I am all for it.
If it lets the game go on for 10 more years I am all for it.
If is a big word.
Now IF EA is smart.......... oh hell when pigs fly!

 

[HD2300]

...
EA selling gold is the exact same as someone duping the gold and would do more to HARM the game than help it.

It is very very simple.

If the 3rd party gold selling of farmed gold is stopped, and EA sold gold at exactly the same rate, the net effect on the UO economy would be exactly the same.

Now if EA starts creating more gold sinks, they can sell even more gold, and as as long as the net overall rate of gold entering the system is the same, the net effect on the UO economy would be exactly the same. However the benefit is, instead of 3rd parties keeping all the profits, EA gets all the profits.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

But EA WOULDN'T be selling at the same rate, nor will you ever stop 3rd party sales of gold (farmed, duped, whatever). Even if EA started selling gold (which woulD RAISE The amount of gold sold because more people would be buying it (thus in effect causing a game-wide duping scenario in terms of proper gold influx vs "created" gold) because they would feel like it's an "ok thing to do now that EA is selling it", but it DOESN'T stop there.

Alongside EA, you'll have the same gold sellers you have now UNDERCUTTING EA. If EA sells gold at $15/million (arbitary values), all a gold seller has to do if offer the same gold for $12/million. If EA adjusts downward, then we get into a pricewar and still gold flows into the game at an ever increasing rate so that any additional gold sink would be offset multiple times over.

The ONLY thing I agree with in your statement is that UO needs more (voluntary) gold sinks, as well as adjusting some other issues (i.e. redesigning houses beyond the first 3 to 5 tiles should NOT refund your building costs)... but they should do that WITHOUT adding in the wide open dupe-faucet that EA-sold gold would be. The Devs need to figure out more ways to REMOVE gold from the game (in a desirable fashion... Imbuing can be one HUGE gold sink due to the gems and training, but since it's such a useful skill, it works), they should NOT get into allowing more and more gold into the game, especially done OUTSIDE the game.

Gold sales from a 3rd party does not create gold from thin air (duping and exploiting, yes, but that's the actual problem), EA selling gold would be creating gold from thin air.

Regardless of the "profits going to EA", the effect on the game would make the current inflation levels in UO MUCH MUCH worse.

Go after the exploiters, the dupers, and the unattended scriptors. That will get rid of most of the unscrupulous gold sellers. Then let the free market do the rest. JC's idea would allow that to happen AND bring in a little extra $$$ to EA in the process.

 

[HD2300]

...
But EA WOULDN'T be selling at the same rate, nor will you ever stop 3rd party sales of gold (farmed, duped, whatever)...

They can stop most of it, at least the "professional" sellers.

What do you think 3rd party program detection is about? When that is successful there will still be a demand for gold, resources and items.

Dont tell me if a patch is released every 2nd day, most of the scriptor farmed gold and resources wouldnt stop.
Dont tell me the amount of gold in an account cant be monitored.
Dont tell me trading of gold in trade windows cant be monitored.
Dont tell me every time you drop checks or checks in a bag that cant be monitored.

Why would EA want to get 10% when they can get 100%? It just doesnt make sense. If someone says do you want 100% of Porsche or 10% of Porsche, what would you choose?

 

[Lady Storm]

HD2300
We are now being monitored for the 3rd party programs, Cal said so in a post not long ago. This dosent mean they are doing anything YET.

One would have to agree with CAl in UO's steps in this matter.
To monitor what is being used first.
Get all proof you need then decide exactly what the lvls of punishment should be for the types of 3rd partys. (some are non invasive to uo)
Then and only then pounce and dole out the appropriate punishment to the offending partys.

We wont be told when, how ,or even where this will start. I have seen posts in stratics that we shall see mass house plots in flames when they do. I dont know if that is so.

What I do know is as a business EA wants to keep its share holders happy and fill the Board of Directors pockets with the bonuses they are accustomed to. If selling gold will do this and keep UO a cash cow they will do it.
They just havent come to that point yet. I said Yet. If it comes down to ether selling everything in UO or cutting a Exe's pay ... You bet your bottom dollar those exe's will do it.

EA selling gold is money in EA's pocket not some farmer.

 

[Coppelia]

Dude Relax.

Real life, someone works 40-50 hours a week. Makes money. Raises family. Has an extra $100 a month but little time to play a GAME.

So, that persons buys some gold. And the plays the parts of the game they like in the little time they have.

Its not that complicated. And yeah its a game. Not real life.

Dude?!

Exactly it's a game, not real life, so why are you mixing them by using money of one to get money of the other? Why are you using the RL working argument, it's not part of the game.
Maybe I'm wrong, then it may be ok to buy Monopoly money from your friends with real life cash when playing Monopoly. I mean, you don't have the time to do all the land buying, hotel building stuff when you work 40-50h a week.



Lord Chaos, how can you compare the little scam that DLC are to a $1000 PvP suit?

I understand players wanting to sell their accounts like a second-hand sale of a video game you don't play anymore. Selling your activation code would be the equivalent, not letting the new owner use all your "saves". But the expression "cash out" has an entirely different meaning. UO isn't a work where you have to produce things that you cash out at the end.


Do I need to give a link to Geoffrey Zatkin's work on how RMT harms the game?


PS: IMO buying several accounts should never have been possible. We should be able to make the characters we want on one account. It's been an arbitrary decision to allow it because : the decision maker gets more money, they don't have to spend money into investigations on suspicious players, they control tightly the authorized amount of resource by player. Never the advantage of richer players on others has been considered.

 

[Smoot]

PS: IMO buying several accounts should never have been possible. We should be able to make the characters we want on one account. It's been an arbitrary decision to allow it because : the decision maker gets more money, they don't have to spend money into investigations on suspicious players, they control tightly the authorized amount of resource by player. Never the advantage of richer players on others has been considered.

I have to disagree with you on this. I know people who have 10-15 accounts, to me thats a bit crazy. However, I have 2, have bought full character slots for both, and am getting to the point where i kinda need another if i want to complete my crafters and make specific templates, which is kinda necessary now.

The main reason i support the sale of accounts is for two reasons. The time it takes to have max stats and the ability to use ethy mounts. ( i know i could ride a charger, but its just a personal preference of mine to have a bit more choices in a mount)

So basically, if it didn't take years for an account and its characters to be on par with a persons existing characters id be all for accounts not being able to be sold.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Dude Relax.

Real life, someone works 40-50 hours a week. Makes money. Raises family. Has an extra $100 a month but little time to play a GAME.

So, that persons buys some gold. And the plays the parts of the game they like in the little time they have.

Its not that complicated. And yeah its a game. Not real life.

Dude?!

Exactly it's a game, not real life, so why are you mixing them by using money of one to get money of the other? Why are you using the RL working argument, it's not part of the game.
Maybe I'm wrong, then it may be ok to buy Monopoly money from your friends with real life cash when playing Monopoly. I mean, you don't have the time to do all the land buying, hotel building stuff when you work 40-50h a week.



Lord Chaos, how can you compare the little scam that DLC are to a $1000 PvP suit?

I understand players wanting to sell their accounts like a second-hand sale of a video game you don't play anymore. Selling your activation code would be the equivalent, not letting the new owner use all your "saves". But the expression "cash out" has an entirely different meaning. UO isn't a work where you have to produce things that you cash out at the end.


Do I need to give a link to Geoffrey Zatkin's work on how RMT harms the game?


PS: IMO buying several accounts should never have been possible. We should be able to make the characters we want on one account. It's been an arbitrary decision to allow it because : the decision maker gets more money, they don't have to spend money into investigations on suspicious players, they control tightly the authorized amount of resource by player. Never the advantage of richer players on others has been considered.

Monopoly is not a good example. Why play it? Just put hotels on it and say you won. Thats a game with a limit. UO has no limit. People enjoy different aspects of an immersive game. They spend cash on gold and items so they can play the parts the like over the years. Monopoloy, you always start at the begining, end and start over.

Its moot anyway. People will buy for cash not matter what is implemented. Im fine with that.

Its the duping and scripting that need to be addressed.

 

[Tina Small]

I have no opinion on whether or not EA should attempt to ban real money transactions tied to accounts or "items" in UO.

However, anyone who is considering engaging in such transactions as either a consumer or a seller with a United States nexus may want to take a few minutes to reflect on the miserable status of most state budgets these days and then look up "sales and use taxes on online transactions." As a seller, do you really want to get tangled up in doing the research to determine whether you must comply with sales tax collection laws? Do you really want to lose sleep over the potential upcoming tidal wave of laws that instead require you to notify your customers that they may need to pay a sales and use tax and also require you to give them an annual detailed report of their online purchases? As a consumer, do you want to worry about whether you might have to calculate and pay sales or use taxes on your online purchases?

If you think you're safe because RMT might not be considered to involve "tangible personal property," don't get too comfy with your position. The situation in many states is truly dire. Such desperate straits may spark some very creative solutions for putting more money in state coffers.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

If EA "creates" the same amount as the gold/resource farmers did, assuming they are now out of action, then the inflation will be exactly the same. It may even encourage EA to put in more gold/resource sinks into the game, such as selling limited edition rares on vendors.

Why do you associate in game sales for RLM to scripting and other illicit activities? People are always trying to give things a bad name by associating illegal activities to legal ones.

Have you bothered to find out the actual legal meaning of the ToS excerpts you quotes? I have, and honestly I think my attorney would laugh at you.

My suggestion, worry about you and play the game for you. If what someone else does has no effect on you, your gameplay, or for some odd reason your life...let it be. In the long run it will save you some stress, and some jealousy.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

They can stop most of it, at least the "professional" sellers.

What do you think 3rd party program detection is about? When that is successful there will still be a demand for gold, resources and items.

Dont tell me if a patch is released every 2nd day, most of the scriptor farmed gold and resources wouldnt stop.
Dont tell me the amount of gold in an account cant be monitored.
Dont tell me trading of gold in trade windows cant be monitored.
Dont tell me every time you drop checks or checks in a bag that cant be monitored.

Why would EA want to get 10% when they can get 100%? It just doesnt make sense. If someone says do you want 100% of Porsche or 10% of Porsche, what would you choose?

I think you should just walk away from all this. As of right now, you have done nothing but rant about what you *think* is illegal and done your best to give sellers, brokers, and merchants a bad name.

Like others have mentioned, those who sell items for RL money are providing a service to those within the game...and like IRL convenience has a cost. You quoted broken rules with selling gold...but what rule was actually broken?

Is the gold still on the server? (yes)
Are the items still in the control of EA after a sale? (yes)
Is there any way to monitor RL cash transactions legally for EA? (no)
Is this issue personal to you rather than casual? (yes)
Did someone poop in your UO punchbowl? (yes)

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

No, I think it's too late for that. I think it's far more important that they continue in the direction of imbuing. That is to say they should focus on creating an environment where crafting is the major supply source for the highest end items.

Imbuing is certainly a step in the right direction, but now all crafting is dependent on imbuing like it is on runics. The crafting system needs to be updated so Legendary blacksmithy and Tailoring are useful with/without these support skills/items.

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

EA should be taking the gold seized from banned accounts, and selling THAT gold for cash in their own pockets. No gold is created because it's already in game. I would much rather buy gold from EA than to take a chance on getting scammed by someone from Siege...yeah I said it

There are scammers on Siege?

 

[HD2300]

From http://virtual-economy.org/blog/how_big_is_the_rmt_market_anyw

The sanctioned RMT of Everquest II virtual property in Station Exchange reached USD 1.87M during one year. A total of about 40,000 users were registered on the two servers in which RMT was sanctioned.

To makes things simple, say if UO have 80,000 users, then RMT in UO could be around $3,750,000 per year!!!!

$3,750,000 per year!!!!

Imagine if EA gets a huge % of this, how much better the game would be. More development, more content, a better client, more GMs, more advertising.

EA should remove the sellers who "make a living off UO", and take their place.

$3,750,000 per year!!!!

 

[GarthGrey]

There are scammers on Siege?

I get it, but Siege is where I was going to buy gold, hence the reference.

 

[AesSedai]

From http://virtual-economy.org/blog/how_big_is_the_rmt_market_anyw

The sanctioned RMT of Everquest II virtual property in Station Exchange reached USD 1.87M during one year. A total of about 40,000 users were registered on the two servers in which RMT was sanctioned.

To makes things simple, say if UO have 80,000 users, then RMT in UO could be around $3,750,000 per year!!!!

$3,750,000 per year!!!!

Imagine if EA gets a huge % of this, how much better the game would be. More development, more content, a better client, more GMs, more advertising.

EA should remove the sellers who "make a living off UO", and take their place.

$3,750,000 per year!!!!

- If you are referring to EA duping gold in order to sell it.. then that would effectively cripple UO equally as much, if not more than, its hyper-inflated economy has been crippled due to the duping and unattended scripting for gold gains that have crippled UO to this point.
It is very simple: EA creating gold is as bad as cheaters obtaining gold. That would not improve UO, although it may give EA some quick income before they feel persuaded to abandon UO due to a lack of legitimate players.

The solution is to prevent cheaters from obtaining gold.
A, one, solution to enable EA to profit from RMT is to sanction it by way of some endorsed method, and then have EA take a cut of the monetary exchange (hint: middlemen generally seek around 10%, or so the saying goes with most of the professional middlemen I have known.. people that have absolutely nothing to do with UO. 10% of 10 billion is 1 billion afterall, just for connecting one seller to one buyer...).

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I'd also like to add to AesSedai's post the following:

EA providing a sanctioned trading ground for out of game trades (which should be available as both Ingame Gold AND RMT sales (set up so that ingame sales would NOT incur a user's fee, but RMT would be done on a percentage fee basis)) would be good for the game IMO.

However, to do this, EA MUST allow the users of such a system to make money using it, otherwise, why would they even bother? Would you sell anything (not just UO related, I mean ANYTHING) on ebay if ebay kept 100% of the sale price? I would assume that the answer to such a question or poll would fall near the 100% "No" mark. Take a gander at some of the current complaints about ebay's fee structure as well as their tie in with Paypal right now (since ebay owns Paypal, when you sell an item, ebay get its multiple fees, then if you take Paypal for payment, ebay gets yet another dip in the Fees trough).

So there's no way that a 100% of the money goes to EA type of system would work.

You also have to look further than just "It's money in EA's pocket and therefore good for UO".

 

[UOKaiser]

From http://virtual-economy.org/blog/how_big_is_the_rmt_market_anyw


To makes things simple, say if UO have 80,000 users, then RMT in UO could be around $3,750,000 per year!!!!

$3,750,000 per year!!!!

Imagine if EA gets a huge % of this, how much better the game would be. More development, more content, a better client, more GMs, more advertising.

EA should remove the sellers who "make a living off UO", and take their place.

$3,750,000 per year!!!!

There is nobody who makes a living out of UO. Only hobbiest.Buy from players at lower amounts sell at higher amounts. But the real RMT left a long time ago to concentrate resources on more popular and profitable games.
Uo gold goes for 50 or cents or so a mil if you can unload it because things have become pretty easy in UO. Example current price of WOW gold ranges per server but i've seen ranges of 2 dollars for 1k gold to 5 dollars for a extremly larger player base. If I was a RMT seller that does this for a living where would I spend my time at?

The hobbiest will just end up selling there gold for less than EA. EA will see not even a dime. Even worst yet If people buy from EA they are contributing to duping. EA does not farm or take gold from players to give to players they would make huge amount of gold from nothing in minutes. Gold doesn't leave the system so soon after that siege and every other shard will see prices going at billions for things that were worth just millions before. More side effectsd will also come out of it.

 

[GarthGrey]

None of this matters anyway. EA won't touch this topic with a 10 ft pole.

 

[Gidge]

I have talked to Costomer Support in '98 when I was given an account by a player who was about 1 hair shy of perma ban for very just causes. It was a child of 15 who owned the account and was in deep legal trouble for actions in uo that went out of game to the RL. That account wouldnt have been transferable 1 month prior I was told and the CS was very hesatant to transfer the account to me due to the prior rules on sales/transfers of accounts.

Secondly ON EBAY: Ebay sold UO houses, gold, etc.. this you agree? Well on the web and news here in calif was a report on the big sales of pixel houses costing hundreds of real dollars. It was even reported once here on stratics about the report.

Ebay stopped the sales of anything pixel when it was rumored that many game companys were consulting the law for suits against Ebay for selling their property. As you know: WE DONT OWN OUR ACCOUNTS EA/MYTHIC DOES. PERIOD END OF QUOTE! If you doubt me read your TOS. WOW EQ UO DoaC etc all the TOS's say the SAME. This was sent to me by Ebay in e mail when a purchase was haulted due to this change.

Cogniac, I served the people of UO, and beleave you me I read the TOS. Signed my name to honor it. SIR you have made one Blue Robe very angry.

Regarding Ebay.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6164917.html

Regarding if stuff should sell for real money.

http://www.juliandibbell.com/texts/blacksnow.html

This is an interesting read.

http://archives.igda.org/online/IGDA_PSW_Whitepaper_2004.pdf

Now granted the account transfer program has only been out since late 2000? Since when, Lady Storm, has anyone needed to call customer service to "get an account" from someone. Simply change the info on the account. Okay so you called to get the "low down" on the account? Unless you gave them the account and password information i don't think they would have given you ANY information on an account. And you didn't talk to this CHILD'S parents? Oh dang!!! They spend 60 bucks for a game and 9.99 a month for it? And you are gonna take a kids word that you can just HAVE the account???? So you had access to the parents information? so wrong so wrong.

AND if you DID give them the account and password that means you already not only had access to that account, it means you took possession of it. AND if you weren't PLANNING on doing anything bad... why even be concerned about that in 98???

i smell fish.

And

"I served the people of UO, and beleave you me I read the TOS. Signed my name to honor it. SIR you have made one Blue Robe very angry."

Please don't toss a "i wore the blue robe" into this. One does not need to be (an ex-counselor) to be a person who helps others or a do-gooder or a rule follower.


"cups her hand behind her ear"

 

[HD2300]

None of this matters anyway. EA won't touch this topic with a 10 ft pole.

There are 3,750,000 million reasons why they should touch this. 3,750,000 reasons to help make uo better and run longer.

And they dont need a "trading system" to get a puny 10%. Simply stop the major sellers, take their place, and get 100%.

 

[HD2300]

It is very simple: EA creating gold is as bad as cheaters obtaining gold. That would not improve UO, although it may give EA some quick income before they feel persuaded to abandon UO due to a lack of legitimate players.

Untrue. The only "players" that would "leave" would be the major "professional" sellers, and there would be no impact in game if the amount of gold or resources entering the game remains exactly the same.

In addition the bonus is, assuming RMT sales are in line with Everquest, UO would net an extra couple of million dollars per year. A good chunk of this would be spent on operations such as advertising and R&D to make UO even better.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

The only "players" that would "leave" would be the major "professional" sellers

Nope, not if they can undercut EA and still turn a decent profit. Also, gold is NOT the only thing RMT sellers are selling.

and there would be no impact in game if the amount of gold or resources entering the game remains exactly the same.

I highlighted the biggest word in that sentence... the one that simply cannot be assumed, much less proven.

assuming RMT sales are in line with Everquest

Again, BAD idea to base your argument on an assumption that the sales would be "in line". It's be nice if it were the case, but we simply do not know that it would be.

Simply stop the major sellers, take their place, and get 100%.

Already explained MULTIPLE TIMES, this is not, can not, and will not happen (well outside of UO shutting down that is). While the exploite-based RMT sales people will simply lower their prices and raise the amounts of gold they are selling, EA would be stuck with a desired level of income (as dictated by the suits upstairs) and would NOT be able to compete with those people.

The reason why a small-fee-based system would work better would be that they'd be able to set up a legitimized marketplace that would be moderated and thus safe for the players to use compared to the outside sellers, and a small fee will bring in more sellers offering more goods than an imperious "you will buy only from us" model.

We're going in circles. I say this not as an insult, slight, or flame, but I really get the sense that you're not very well versed in how businesses are run, or how markets tend to work. You're going mainly by assumption that if it goes correctly and follows certain assumptions then it will reach some desired outcome, but fail to realize that in oder to do such a thing, you have to ignore or hope the following occur:

1. You have to hope that EA can actually shut down 100% of third party sales
2. You have to hope that 80,000 people will turn 100% to EA to buy ingame items
3. You have to ignore the fact that EA selling gold is functionally the same as a duper selling gold

 

[AesSedai]

None of this matters anyway. EA won't touch this topic with a 10 ft pole.

There are 3,750,000 million reasons why they should touch this. 3,750,000 reasons to help make uo better and run longer.

And they dont need a "trading system" to get a puny 10%. Simply stop the major sellers, take their place, and get 100%.

- Thank you for confirming what I thought you were implying.

First, it is impossible for EA to stop out-of-game transactions (prime example: WoW banned RMT from day one. Have RMTs stopped in WoW?).

Second, permitting EA to dupe everything in UO (to sell at 100% profit) would kill major appealing aspects of UO for many players; I hate to suggest it, yet I strongly propose that would actually kill UO (although I agree that EA may make 3,750,000 million or more off of UO before they kill the plug due to a lack of interest in a game in which the creators sell everything you want to anyone willing to play and/or pay).

Third, the major sellers that you so dislike would not be a problem if there was not a major amount of cheating. Focus on the cheating and forget about the entrepreneurs profiteering off of cheating. Without cheating there would only be legitimate UO play and transactions (whether that happens in game for stuff or out of game for money or stuff)... I promise you that is true.

 

[AesSedai]

- Again, I concur with Dermott (and as such I also mean no offense to the original poster).

 

[HD2300]

First, it is impossible for EA to stop out-of-game transactions (prime example: WoW banned RMT from day one. Have RMTs stopped in WoW?).

Second, permitting EA to dupe everything in UO (to sell at 100% profit) would kill major appealing aspects of UO for many players; I hate to suggest it, yet I strongly propose that would actually kill UO (although I agree that EA may make 3,750,000 million or more off of UO before they kill the plug due to a lack of interest in a game in which the creators sell everything you want to anyone willing to play and/or pay).

Third, the major sellers that you so dislike would not be a problem if there was not a major amount of cheating. Focus on the cheating and forget about the entrepreneurs profiteering off of cheating. Without cheating there would only be legitimate UO play and transactions (whether that happens in game for stuff or out of game for money or stuff)... I promise you that is true.

1. Blizzard doesnt sell gold in Wow. If they did, then there would be an incentive for them to crack down more on RMT. EA only needs to focus on the "professional" sellers who do most of the RMT.

2. You can already buy whatever you want now anyway, so there would be no difference if EA does it instead of the "professional" sellers. Since UO is still running, that statement is untrue.

3. When scripting is stopped, there will still be a huge demand for gold, resources and items. EA should step in and continue to meet this demand.

 

[Viper09]

Why is this discussion still going? EA doesn't want to give Mythic anymore resources to focus on this game and Mythic doesn't have the resources to actually do anything to affect RMT. Personally I don't care either. There is a lot more things that are more important than RMT for them to work on.

WoW never stopped the professional RMT, it's still going on and always will.

 

[HD2300]

...
1. You have to hope that EA can actually shut down 100% of third party sales
2. You have to hope that 80,000 people will turn 100% to EA to buy ingame items
3. You have to ignore the fact that EA selling gold is functionally the same as a duper selling gold

1. Focus on the "professional" sellers and you will shut down most of the 3rd party sales. And there arent 20000 sellers because there are not that many channels to advertise UO RMT.

2. Shut down the "professional" sellers and most will turn to EA to buy ingame items. Plus they know that some of the profit will go to make the game better as opposed to none.

3. Irrelevant. When the rate of gold/resources entering the game remains the same, the impact remains the same.

 

[Gidge]

3. When scripting is stopped, there will still be a huge demand for gold, resources and items. EA should step in and continue to meet this demand.

NO!

Let the blinders come off and let people actually play the game for their gold. Set them free from their bindings they don't realize they are in.

I hate nothing more than hearing someone say in game.. "What else do i need to buy i am sooo behind the times now that i have returned!"

Just play! Encourage people to play geesh... Does no one play just because anymore? Doesn't anyone just play to enjoy the challenge the pride of completing something on their own? yes i know there are those that do, but if your goal is to make us "like other games"... Please just go play those other games instead of trying to seeds thoughts of....yeah... i'll accept that.

The uogamecode store should only be for things pertaining to your "account" never for items.

Let the demand for gold spur hunting, gathering and crafting!!!!!!!!! Not cha ching!!! for UO or anyone!

 

[HD2300]

Why is this discussion still going? EA doesn't want to give Mythic anymore resources to focus on this game and Mythic doesn't have the resources to actually do anything to affect RMT. Personally I don't care either. There is a lot more things that are more important than RMT for them to work on.

WoW never stopped the professional RMT, it's still going on and always will.

There are 3,750,000 reasons why. $3,750,000 per year would mean more budget to do the many more things that you and most players want. More developers, more content, more enhancements, etc.

btw I see 3rd party program detection, which is part of the current dev plans, as the first step in stopping "professional" RMT. But when it goes live, EA need to get in and meet and profit from the demand that will still exist.

As posted above with WoW, Blizzard doesnt sell gold in WoW. The only incentive at the moment for Blizzard to stop it, is just to stop players from complaining about it. If Blizzard did sell gold, then there would be an incentive for them to crack down more on "professional" RMT. It is an opportunity to make more profit that Blizzard hasnt explored yet.

 

[Gidge]

As posted above with WoW, Blizzard doesnt sell gold in WoW. The only incentive at the moment for Blizzard to stop it, is just to stop players from complaining about it.

And its a d*mn good incentive.

 

[AesSedai]

First, it is impossible for EA to stop out-of-game transactions (prime example: WoW banned RMT from day one. Have RMTs stopped in WoW?).

Second, permitting EA to dupe everything in UO (to sell at 100% profit) would kill major appealing aspects of UO for many players; I hate to suggest it, yet I strongly propose that would actually kill UO (although I agree that EA may make 3,750,000 million or more off of UO before they kill the plug due to a lack of interest in a game in which the creators sell everything you want to anyone willing to play and/or pay).

Third, the major sellers that you so dislike would not be a problem if there was not a major amount of cheating. Focus on the cheating and forget about the entrepreneurs profiteering off of cheating. Without cheating there would only be legitimate UO play and transactions (whether that happens in game for stuff or out of game for money or stuff)... I promise you that is true.

1. Blizzard doesnt sell gold in Wow. If they did, then there would be an incentive for them to crack down more on RMT. EA only needs to focus on the "professional" sellers who do most of the RMT.

2. You can already buy whatever you want now anyway, so there would be no difference if EA does it instead of the "professional" sellers. Since UO is still running, that statement is untrue.

3. When scripting is stopped, there will still be a huge demand for gold, resources and items. EA should step in and continue to meet this demand.

- Okay.
re: 1. Are you suggesting that Activision/Blizzard does not have enough incentive to enforce their rules? They have more $incentive$ and ability than just about any other MMO.

re: 2. Do you honestly think there would be no difference for current and potential UO players if EA duped everything in UO to sell for money? How much fun is a game whose creator bestills you with everything as long as you give them enough $$$.


re: 3. Do you really believe that a good solution to a better UO future is that EA should 'cheat' once 'cheating' is stopped? Really?

I feel you have twisted the meaning of my statements. I fear you have done this primarily due to your just dislike of "profressional sellers". By the way, I dislike lowly cheating sellers (and cheaters in general, personally) as much as you, if not more. Still, I feel that your 3 replies would not benefit the future of UO; as much as you may wish they would.


I am against cheating.
I am in favor of honest work and free trade.
Having EA dupe everything in UO to sell to UO players completely disagrees with those basic beliefs. That is another simple way that I try to consider this suggestion.

 

[Viper09]

So this thread is really a cleverly disguised discussion about encouraging Mythic to sell gold with a side of guessing that it could likely shut-down RMT sales?

If Mythic sold gold, RMT might end up lowering the prices of their gold or offering something that Mythic doesn't to keep their own customers. Regardless, Mythic doesn't need to sell gold and shouldn't.

Want to buy gold from Mythic? Buy yourself some tokens from them and sell them to players.

 

[HD2300]

So this thread is really a cleverly disguised discussion about encouraging Mythic to sell gold with a side of guessing that it could likely shut-down RMT sales?

The goal is to explore how to make UO more profitable, which in turns leads to more UO developers and advertising for UO, which in turn leads to a better game for the majority of UO players.

Good debate. TY to everyone who posted.

 

[Gidge]

If your goal is to make UO more profitable, then they should...

A. Really play the game. i know they do not because, if i worked there and i saw something in game that needed fixed, you surely could lay wager and win that it would be fixed.

Can we all say the gates in shame that you have to leave out of backwards??? I mean seriously? the game has been out how long and not one EA employee who plays has never gone through those level gates said. what the heck? what is blocking me from going out of this gate like normal????????


B. Advertise. Make a few banners and sign up for google ad stuff. It doesn't have to be fancy, Have us players make the banners in a contest and start them circulating!!!


C. Seriously update their pages and keep up with questions and answers and stuff. They (either stratics or EA) keep coming up with ways to communicate and EA keeps dropping the ball.



The DEV thing i have put in 3 questions. countless others have too. Granted my questions may not be that all fancy, but questions none the less.

D. i will mention but won't comment on the customer service. Enough has been said and a learning curve is involved right now.




i know they are trying, but they are getting paid to try? They get paid to DO.

 

[XLaCeDX]

Ea can't stop people stealing their GAME (free shards), much less stop people doing anything else.

So it's a pointless question/poll tbh.

 

[Sneaky Que]

No - because they couldn't stop it even if they wanted to.

 

[HD2300]

No - because they couldn't stop it even if they wanted to.

Maybe not stop it 100%, but they can detect and remove the "professional" sellers.

And it is maybe what they are doing now with 3rd party program detection. Establish a baseline. Track total gold/resources, gold/resources traded, gold/resources dropped. Then from this they can get the outliers then investigate and remove the "professional" sellers.

Once the "professional" sellers are removed, EA can step in and meet existing demand and make up to $3,750,000 more per year.

 

[Evlar]

One important question though...

...do you think that extra $3,750,000 per year (assumption I know, but you gave the figures) would go back into UO development/production though?

Work out what the estimated revenue from subscriptions and Gamecodes sales is already, offset against that staff wages, overheads, etc... spent on UO, then tell me if much of that <insert your figures here> profit actually goes back into UO now.

Note: I didn't include advertising... because obviously they spend very little to nil there.

Thing is, no matter how much you crusade and harp on about this, though they might be able to ban RMT "professionals", it's unlikely to happen.

How do those selling "pixels for profits" affect you personally? Do the same people not exist in most other MMO's out there? What difference (aside from revenue to the developmental source) will it make to the game itself, if third-party RMT sellers are removed, only to be replaced like-for-like by RMT's from the developers/publishers of the game?

Would Mythic... *cough* BioWare, even bother going to the trouble of doing what you suggest, unless they were instructed to do so by EA? Given the myriad number of "free" Ultima Online servers (be they clones of publishes, hybrids, or something loosly base on UO) that EA have never bothered to attempt closing down, I would think not.

In principal and in a business sense, as an advanced method of prevention of scripting resources/items, the idea seems sound. In practice, it's unlikely to ever happen. EA would have to spend money to enforce such bans legally, irrespective of their ToS and pixel "ownership" rights. Given developments in recent years with EA with regards to expenditure on UO, I think not.

 

[Eyes of Origin]

So this thread is really a cleverly disguised discussion about encouraging Mythic to sell gold with a side of guessing that it could likely shut-down RMT sales?

If Mythic sold gold, RMT might end up lowering the prices of their gold or offering something that Mythic doesn't to keep their own customers. Regardless, Mythic doesn't need to sell gold and shouldn't.

Want to buy gold from Mythic? Buy yourself some tokens from them and sell them to players.

I've seen this suggested a couple times while reading this thread....


Xfer tokens from EA are what, $20? In game they sell for 20mil? yeah not much of a profit there. If you just want to get gold in your pocket, sure, but its a waste of money =/

Brokers sell tokens for half of what EA sells them for, hence why so many people get them from brokers instead of EA.

Buying from a broker not only gets you gold in your pocket, but it does it for cheaper.

So as long as there are brokers out there selling tokens, items, etc, EA/Mythic is going to be out of that cash

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

People mention the "buy a token, sell for gold" and equate it to "buying gold from EA", but they're completely mistaken. They're buying a token from EA, but the gold is coming from an ingame source (another player), NOT directly from EA (as it would if they were buying gold straight from EA).

As for the brokers, they have to get their tokens from somewhere, so there IS money going to EA for the tokens (what's done after the tokens are purchased is really beside the point).

The problem arises when people have either duped the tokens or used fraudulent CC #s to buy the tokens THEN depriving EA of the rightful purchase price.

Again, it's not the existence of RMT or even brokers that is the problem, but the existence of people exploiting and defrauding the system.

 

[Canucklehead73]

I spose I don't really have a solution, I have never really been a fan of RMT simply because we have to play with "players" who really aren't part of the game. You can spot them a mile away, they only have interest in what they can "get" while playing and are never part of the social aspect of real players.

Really degrades the play imho...

 

[HD2300]

So as long as there are brokers out there selling tokens, items, etc, EA/Mythic is going to be out of that cash

This.

Regardless of whether people making a living off uo is right or wrong, while "professional" sellers exist, EA/Mythic is going to be out of that cash.

If you take the hypothetical $3,750,000/yr. EA could hire a couple of extra GMs, Testers and Developers and still make an extra $3,000,000 per year. You cannot argue that more GMs, Testers, Developers and also more profit to EA is not a good thing.

 

[BlissMarie]

I voted that they should let people sell anything for real money.

Why? ...because they would spend a lot of time and money trying to enforce such a rule and would probably fail in the end anyway.

Another reason is because I like paying less than $10 for transfer tokens.

BlissMarie

 

[Eyes of Origin]

I voted that they should let people sell anything for real money.

Why? ...because they would spend a lot of time and money trying to enforce such a rule and would probably fail in the end anyway.

Another reason is because I like paying less than $10 for transfer tokens.

BlissMarie

agree with you there... when you are making chars to send to other shards to play, paying 20 bucks a token is insane =/

 

[Coppelia]

NO!

Let the blinders come off and let people actually play the game for their gold. Set them free from their bindings they don't realize they are in.

I hate nothing more than hearing someone say in game.. "What else do i need to buy i am sooo behind the times now that i have returned!"

Just play! Encourage people to play geesh... Does no one play just because anymore? Doesn't anyone just play to enjoy the challenge the pride of completing something on their own? yes i know there are those that do, but if your goal is to make us "like other games"... Please just go play those other games instead of trying to seeds thoughts of....yeah... i'll accept that.

Thank you!



And the logic used in this thread tells a lot on the high intelligence of some posters : EQ makes X money from Y players, UO has Y x2 players, how much money will they make? And yes, there are actual people replying X x2. That's awesome. And then they're using this number as a solid argument.
rolleyes:

 

[El_Cid]

Before Ebay stopped the sale of "vertual" items i probably spent about £1000 for items and gold (back in 2002ish) so i could actually get started in the game as 1000gp and the clothes on your back got you no where compired to where the game was at.

The dupes hurt the game bad i saw it with my own eyes (sold my 1 of a kind boots for 15mill just before i left and 2 years later when i come back everyone has a pair and paying rediculus amounts for them).

BUT while Ebay was stil allowing i managed to make my investment back from also getting into selling on Ebay.

I find now, most people who are returning players see that you really cant get anywere in this game without atleast 100mill (and thats cheeep as it will only buy you your arties a crimson, counjours trinket/robe, ingots to bard your mount or 5 nice pets if your a tamer.) but there comng back from 5-8 years and have if 1 mill.

So the sale of gold is still very popular as returning players who want to get back into UO as they love the game realise they can spend $60 on 100 mill and get comfortably back into the game as thats what it costs now to just build one char apposed to there 1000gp they get, which today is just not gona work (unless you want it like wow or old UO where you have to spend 8 months just to be at a lvl you can kill anything worth killing).

UO is past that (12 years now?) you need to start with atleast 10mill just to be able to reutrn to the game and buy a worth while suite you can hunt in to build gold up.

Thunderz

Bingo, thats what I had to do when I got my accounts back. EA had wiped 70% of my characters so that didnt leave much money in the bank. Plus had no idea how bad the inflation was gonna be!

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

And the logic used in this thread tells a lot on the high intelligence of some posters : EQ makes X money from Y players, UO has Y x2 players, how much money will they make? And yes, there are actual people replying X x2. That's awesome. And then they're using this number as a solid argument.

I think you'll only find ONE poster holding onto that argument. Other pro-RMT posters have already dismissed it (especially considering that any pro-RMT player worth their salt understands that you DO NOT maintain a functional marketplce when you have the company that runs the game creating ingame currency out of thin air above and beyond what the game already does).

I'm very pro-RMT (provided that the goods are obtained legitimately and legally (both legally ingame and legally in real life)), but I am VERY anti-EA selling gold for cash.

At most, an MMO company should create an out of game moderated marketplace such that:

1. Only PAYING accounts have access (no free account access)
2. Marketplace accounts are tied to your game account
3. Options available to sell in ingame currency or RMT
4. Option to run the listing as an auction style or Buy It Now set price style
5. Moderated by game staff to ensure a fair marketplace (as much as possible of course)
6. Users of the Marketplace would have to agree that listing on the marketplace COULD trigger an internal investigation into the account in the case that the lister is suspected of exploiting the game in some fashion.
7. Trades for ingame currency (see 3 above) would be free of charge, RMT sales would be subject to a fee (10-15% most probable)

Now I'm not going to try and pull some made up number out of my ass to defend the above as I don't know what income stream this would provide or even if it would pay for itself. What I can say is that the benefits would be to connect more buyers and sellers for both ingame currency and RMT sales through a neutral party that would be seen as more legitimate in nature, and a good deal less problematic of certain previous player run trade sites.

 

[HD2300]

I'm not the one advocating that EA making an extra $3,750,000 per year, which will ensure that UO operates longer and will result in more GMs, more development, more testers and more advertising is not a good idea. But then making $375,000 is a fantastic idea. LOL.

"Professional" sellers continue selling -> "Professional" sellers win
EA takes place of "Professional" sellers -> EA Wins, Players Win

and yet, some people here continue to advocate that only "Professional" sellers should win. LOL.