Letter to Cal on Low Hanging Fruit

[Crow]

I chose not to vote, those are neat ideas...and if implemented and worked in the sense of bringing people here...great. I just don’t feel I’ve been around long enough to have a say besides my thoughts below.

I don’t care much for advanced character tokens even on prodo, and I really don’t think they have a place on Siege.

Faction item costs so far haven’t affected me, I never did factions on prodo, and am still new to it here, so I feel I have no real say in that matter.

Accelerated skill gain areas are a neat idea...but I really think people should get out and play no matter what your skill levels are, and it shouldn’t just be about 'endgame' before you get off your ass and fight.

I think it is up to the individual to take responsibility to form, foster and develop community and healthy discord.

It's probably best to not depend on developers who probably consider this game a side project at best to keep things alive and interesting.

 

[Cal_Mythic]

Hey ... just letting you guys know I'm here ... just lurking

 

[Kat]

Good to see ya, lurker!

 

[Mook Chessy]

Hey ... just letting you guys know I'm here ... just lurking

Hello Cal, its RP...we spoke during your visit and I wanted to thank you for keeping your word and checking in.

I think this thread speaks volumes as to how much the players on Siege want this to work and I want to thank you in advance for any and all the changes will will eventually receive!

I dont want to muddy the waters but I do need to back up BR here...if you can turn on Passive Detect, if it can be deemed a " piece of low hanging fruit" that IMHO would bring back many veteran players that quit UO/Siege do to the naked stealth tamer template.

Please understand that I ask this only if Passive Detect is an easy fix. I for one will admit I have no clue about the nuts and bolts on a PC game.

Thanks again and I look forward to reading your reply.

Woot!!

 

[Bruin]

@ BR.

#1 - I am in favor of Passive Detect, something I have discussed previous times. So don't think my action/inaction is as a result of my person bias.

#2 - The only poll I have found that asked the question of passive detect is here of which only 43% of Siege was in favor of changes to passive detect. So, the data we have as of right now tells us Siege is not in favor of passive detect.

#3 - Any discussion I have seen regarding passive detect does not revolve around copying prodo shards detect, you can see that in the poll above and discussions here.

#4 - If there is an issue such as this where we need to determine two factors, 1. Do we as Siege want it, and 2. Is it possible for the Devs to implement - I'd rather answer question #1 before asking #2. Reason being asking the devs first and Siege later means we take more dev time. When we ask the devs is something possible, I'm sure it takes some time of theirs to investigate. So if there were 10 possible things we wanted, and we went to the devs first, they'd have to investigate 10 things. If we asked Siege first, turns out we want 5 of them, then we ask the devs they only have to investigate 5 things. I'd rather they spend time coding siege changes than investigating stuff since I know our time with them is at a premium.

#5 - If it's something you want, and you feel Siege would support it - put up a poll and if Siege does support it I'll put it in the 'letter'. Hell, I'll even do it for you.

 

[John Connelly]

if you can turn on Passive Detect, if it can be deemed a " piece of low hanging fruit"

Personally I do not want passive detect. Get tracking and detect hidden on your template if you want to counter hiding and stealth. Why should a player investing 175 points in skills be revealed by someone with no investment in the required skills?

Maybe there is an another solution, like flagged players can't smoke bomb or cannot hide for a time. Passive detect is not a fair solution to your problems.

 

[Førsaken]

if you can turn on Passive Detect, if it can be deemed a " piece of low hanging fruit"

Personally I do not want passive detect. Get tracking and detect hidden on your template if you want to counter hiding and stealth. Why should a player investing 175 points in skills be revealed by someone with no investment in the required skills?

Maybe there is an another solution, like flagged players can't smoke bomb or cannot hide for a time. Passive detect is not a fair solution to your problems.

p.s. For anyone hating on passive detect, just know that it isn't as bad as you may think. For the thieves, this means you better have 120 Stealth...Which you should have to begin with, none of this hybrid nonsense like the stealth tamers, stealth boks/fencers.

Personally, I want you to put 220 skill points in Hide and Stealth. Why the hell should you be able to 100% stealth with never being seen with 75 Stealth? You shouldn't.

I've played a Stealth Bokuto template WITH 75 Stealth on prodo shard (Atlantic/Test Center) and I still rock people. You're making passive detect sound worse then it is.

If you don't like the chance of being passively revealed, then you need to invest in 120 Stealth-Whether it be with items or real skill. Either way, 75 is more then fine with passive detect, and 120 Stealth pretty much negates it.

 

[John Connelly]

Personally, I want you to put 220 skill points in Hide and Stealth. Why the hell should you be able to 100% stealth with never being seen with 75 Stealth? You shouldn't.

Personally, I want you to put 175 points in tracking and detect hidden to reveal me. Why the hell should you be able to reveal me when you have 0 detect hidden? You shouldn't.

 

[Mook Chessy]

Personally, I want you to put 175 points in tracking and detect hidden to reveal me. Why the hell should you be able to reveal me when you have 0 detect hidden? You shouldn't.

Im sorry John but no way should anyone be able to move as fast and long as you can with only 75 Stealth.

Please notice one thing about UO, you can always tell when something is way overpowered as over 75% of the shard does it.

Stealth, GD and bok bok...see my point. If everyone is doing it, its for a reason...they want the advantage the act give them/me.

 

[John Connelly]

Please notice one thing about UO, you can always tell when something is way overpowered as over 75% of the shard does it.

When it comes to selecting a prodo shard players choose the one closest to their home with lowest ping. That choice is not possible for people who wish to play Siege. The only way I can survive on Siege (with a ping of 300) is to have the possibility to hide and stealth. Fighting back or running away is usually not an option. I imagine that goes for a lot of player, possibly the 75% of the shard you mentioned.

Players like Shey'lei have learned how to cope with players who hide and stealth. I don't see why I should have my template messed up so that you don't need to adapt yours to detect me.

 

[Kat]

Players like Shey'lei have learned how to cope with players who hide and stealth. I don't see why I should have my template messed up so that you don't need to adapt yours to detect me.

This!

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

About a week and a half ago, Cal ‘Uriah’ the UO producer and Mesanna were kind enough to meet with us about issues that have been plaguing Siege. My understanding is that he requested that we get back to him on some possible changes that are ‘low hanging fruit.’ This afternoon, Kat, Forsaken, Kelmo and I met in vent to discuss the possibilities. Prior to, Cal had also PM’d me regarding our original request months ago and what could not be done – so our request takes these into consideration.

Cal mentioned that changes to RoT took the dev team about 2 months to test and re-test to get it right, and didn’t have the desired affect of increasing Siege’s population – thus we would probably want to focus our efforts elsewhere. When it comes to housing or bank-box storage, Siege could not be coded any differently than other shards thus eliminating our thoughts of Grandfathered Housing or increased bank box storage.

Below is what Kat, Kelmo, Forsaken and I had thought best to request. We want to make sure that we have the support of Siege before putting this forward.

What we are requesting:

1. Events: preferably those based around accelerated skill gain zones (blackrock) and/or cursed arties. Quite simply, the population on Siege is low minimizing interaction and events foster interaction. One of the main reasons people come to Siege and don’t stick around is because there are too few people on. So when one goes hunting, or even to a bank, it is rare they will ever run into anyone else. Anytime an event is going on in a specific location, typically that becomes the primary hunting spot, and of course the murderers (pks) and pvp’ers follow – fostering interaction. This minimizes the feeling of solitude within the MMORPG. Accelerated skill gain zones (black rock) are preferable because they assist with the tediousness of training, and cursed artifact loot helps minimize the imbalance between the rich and non-rich in pvp.
2. Lower faction artifact costs: Currently faction artifacts on Siege cost 5x as much as other shards. While the goal of Siege is supposed to be a more ‘advanced’ shard, increasing the silver requirement for faction artifacts simply means people need to farm at least 5x more in order to acquire a faction artifact suit. This is taking nearly 6 hours to farm a single suit that can be lost in one pvp engagement. The difficulty in acquiring faction artifacts is causing people to give up fighting, as it is very difficult to fight without them and very hard to acquire. Thus lowering the silver costs would simply put more people out on the battlefield, having more fun, which is after all the point of why we play this game, to have fun.
3. Allow Advanced Character Tokens: This has a both win-win of bringing in additional revenue for EA, while minimizing the tediousness of training. It would lower the amount of training time from about 3 months to 2 month to fully train a character. Hopefully, it will convince others that have heard rumors about the difficulties of RoT to give Siege a try as they now know they have a better starting point.


Do you agree with our request?

I'd like to thank the dev team for taking the time to consider our concerns. Please keep this thread positive, I don't think it's appropriate to discuss any negativity as that doesn't get us anywhere. If you have a genuine concern about our request, please put it forward.

I voted no. I'd rather have no changes and watch the shard fold than waste time on another round of unproductive waiting.

1. yes, although if they had listened in the first place, ROT changes would have worked. That was a massive waste of their time and ours.
2. hell no--faction artifacts caused the massive drop in population. Making them more plentiful won't help. You might as well to give everyone 70 DCI or simply eliminate dexxers altogether.
3. don't care--it won't be helpful at all unless they increase the skills given by advanced tokens. It is incredibly easy to get skills to 70. That is where the gains slow down.

You might ask if the code for "Return to Brittania" can be activated for a single shard. Making Siege free for a while might help more than these changes for the sake of change.

 

[Draxous]

if you can turn on Passive Detect, if it can be deemed a " piece of low hanging fruit"

Personally I do not want passive detect. Get tracking and detect hidden on your template if you want to counter hiding and stealth. Why should a player investing 175 points in skills be revealed by someone with no investment in the required skills?

Maybe there is an another solution, like flagged players can't smoke bomb or cannot hide for a time. Passive detect is not a fair solution to your problems.

That is total crap. See the post above mine for a good illustration of why. Even a detector cannot counter a stealther 1 on 1... and they should be able to.

You run around stealthed and a player with tracking and detect hidden, uses the skill... tracks you and reveals you and then you INSTANTLY hide and stealth away again! Like what the hell was the point of using the skill? To see your beautiful face for a split second?

You do know that the timer between when I can reveal you again is the same timer for when you can hide again. So Ive got you tracked and I'm following you waiting to use the skill again and then I reveal you and you hide again. Awesome.

Lets not even mention clicking yourself with detect hidden is supposed to have an Area of Effect (AoE) around the detector that reveals all hidden people. It does not work effectively even at 100.

Yeah, that sounds like it's balanced.

Smoke bombs, no delay between when you hide and when you can stealth, with the ability to instantly hide after being revealed and with how handicapped the skill detect hidden is.

Yeah, that's sounds like it's balanced.


Passive detect works fine on every other shard and this game is tailored and balanced to it. There's no reason you should be upset about making this game fair to all classes of characters instead of favoring one above the rest. If it is a low-hanging fruit - it needs to be addressed.

 

[burdensrise]

This is taking nearly 6 hours to farm a single suit that can be lost in one pvp engagement.

Go play prodo shards then if you want total carebear. The main purpose of Siege is suppost to be a no insure or bless server.. were you risk your gear when you fight and the common rule of thumb since the good old days has always been if your afraid to lose it don't use it. Instead all everyone complains about is losing items..QQ

No wonder why Siege is so messed up with all these carebear suggestions. But thats what you get when trammies try and think about how to improve PvP

Faction Items, Best PVP gear.. as its to expensive at a whopping 5k silver entry level items.. Can build a pretty nice suit with 3 5K items and some good runics. Even get a god mode free weapon to bless(Thanks to SA) and the rest of your suit to perfectly enhanced on command for your missing stats with imbuing.

 

[burdensrise]

Actually, Draxous, we'd thank you for staying out of this. You ruin every attempt to do something positive for this shard and you do not play here. Ever.

/Agreed

Fact.. History always repeats

Soon this will turn into a KOC scream fest I am sure.

 

[Freelsy]

Go play prodo shards then if you want total carebear. The main purpose of Siege is suppost to be a no insure/bless server but instead all everyone complains about is losing items.. sad

No wonder why Siege is so messed up with all these carebear suggestions.

Let me correct ya cowboy. Siege was created as an all feluccia ruleset with open pvp everywhere you go. End of story.

We're not asking for "carebear" land, as you call it. We're simply asking for items to be reasonably acquired within a reasonable amount of time. You see, some people have jobs which require you to work many hours (I'm Air Force and work, on average, 12 hours a day.) I don't have 4-6 hours to devote to farming silver. Another 4 hours to gain skill, and then spend time going out and hunting with the guild.

With the exception of the silver changes, these propositions are mostly for the new comers to the shard. Players that have been around for a while will undoubtably bennefit from the changes, but we're trying to get new life/blood here. After being asked many times, the number one reason why players don't come here is the amount of time it takes to train your character.

I can't believe certain people are voting in a pole for a game they don't even play anymore.

Have a good day, cupcake.

 

[Kat]

Players like Shey'lei have learned how to cope with players who hide and stealth. I don't see why I should have my template messed up so that you don't need to adapt yours to detect me.

This!

Shey lei still cant kill me when I play a stealther, atleast she cant kill me without the help of 5 others. It is way to easy for someone with brains to get away. I mean come on, I'll pop a club into my hands, mirror image shadow strike an image so i hit everytime, than when I can I will smoke bomb. There is noway you will get me. I will have moved away and everytime you detect me I will smoke bomb or shadow strike. You will have to wait another 20 seconds, by then I will have be long gone. Now that I have 120 stealth, i was picking your turds off the other day right infront of sheylei.

Whatever, Bo. This is a great new stratics name for you. Fits you perfectly!!!

 

[burdensrise]

Let me correct ya cowboy. Siege was created as an all feluccia ruleset with open pvp everywhere you go. End of story.

We're not asking for "carebear" land, as you call it. We're simply asking for items to be reasonably acquired within a reasonable amount of time. You see, some people have jobs which require you to work many hours (I'm Air Force and work, on average, 12 hours a day.) I don't have 4-6 hours to devote to farming silver. Another 4 hours to gain skill, and then spend time going out and hunting with the guild.

With the exception of the silver changes, these propositions are mostly for the new comers to the shard. Players that have been around for a while will undoubtably bennefit from the changes, but we're trying to get new life/blood here. After being asked many times, the number one reason why players don't come here is the amount of time it takes to train your character.

I can't believe certain people are voting in a pole for a game they don't even play anymore.

Have a good day, cupcake.

Let me stop you there boy,

The game is not suppost to be next to free. If you want to use shiny items you will have to work a few hours of your time to get them. Thats fact for any game for you.

Siege is seriously F'ed up. Most of the suggestions are just more garbage in the long run will not result in a better server.. it seems the main cause of all these suggestions is not really gameplay improvements its trying siege to have more than 2-3 players to fight on a good night. But really its been this way for a long time now even before faction items Siege was dead (well maybe not quite this dead)

Other talk is about breaking stealth on Siege.. Motive again seems to be so you may have a chance of seeing someone online. But instead of dodging the bullet lets talk about the real problem. The main reason for all the stealthers.. Tamers and pet pvp, I would much rather see people use there "So valuable time" to focus fixing something that is really broken, Remove pet pvp and you will find a lot less people don't have stealth

P.S. Just because you haven't seen someone doesn't mean they don't play... Sometimes you have to go outta Luna also

Have a nice day, boy scout



Edit to previous post.
"One of the main purposes of Siege" Fel Ruleset everywere. Harder gameplay, No Insure / Bless

 

[John Connelly]

Passive detect works fine on every other shard

So does insurance but that doesn't mean it belongs on Siege.

 

[Draxous]

Passive detect works fine on every other shard

So does insurance but that doesn't mean it belongs on Siege.

Oh? You mean we aren't asking to have monster loot boosted because not having insurance is balanced?

I have a feeling a lot of people who abuse the hell out of stealth are feeling a bit uncomfortable right now. No ones asking you to give up what you love. We're asking you for balance.

 

[John Connelly]

We're asking you for balance.

I am all for balance. If stealth is overpowered ask for a boost to detect. That's reasonable. But you don't want something reasonable. You want something for nothing.

 

[Draxous]

We're asking you for balance.

I am all for balance. If stealth is overpowered ask for a boost to detect. That's reasonable. But you don't want something reasonable. You want something for nothing.

If you can come up with an idea to boost detect and address this issue properly that's "low hanging fruit" then sure... I'd support you.


Passive Detect is already working and in effect on other shards. You don't see oodles of people complaining about how crappy it is... so it's most definitely a reasonable solution if the vast majority of the players in this game are happy with it.

This isn't something for nothing. This is balance.

 

[John Connelly]

Passive Detect is already working and in effect on other shards. You don't see oodles of people complaining about how crappy it is... so it's most definitely a reasonable solution if the vast majority of the players in this game are happy with it.

We have been here before. Insurance is working and in effect on other shards. I see nobody there complaining about how crappy it is. Does that mean we should implement it for Siege? No. Stop trying to compare what is good for Trammy shards with what is good for Siege, when you are really only interested in what is good for you.

 

[Kage]

Hey ... just letting you guys know I'm here ... just lurking

Well since you're lurking... Whenever you guys take time to investigate a few things. How about looking at how many people on Siege Run the combination of the following skills / templates.

-Hiding, Stealth, Ninja, Archery/Swords

-Hiding, Stealth, Ninja, Taming

I bet you will find at least 80% or more of Siege runs this. That is why the poll about putting Passive Detect on Siege is not going over to well.

It's really sad that our shard is nothing but a bunch of stealthers... I wish some type of changes in the future could possibly lower that percentage.

I had a few ideas....

-Aniamal Form & Flying should take up 3 control slots. This would eliminate a lot of stealth tamer pvp...

-Smoke bombs need a timer of like 5 minutes.

-If you Detect someone with Detect Hidden they should not be able to just re hide or some bomb.

-Bokuto.... Why is a wooden stick so damn powerful?

Thanks for listening.

 

[Draxous]

Passive Detect is already working and in effect on other shards. You don't see oodles of people complaining about how crappy it is... so it's most definitely a reasonable solution if the vast majority of the players in this game are happy with it.

We have been here before. Insurance is working and in effect on other shards. I see nobody there complaining about how crappy it is. Does that mean we should implement it for Siege? No. Stop trying to compare what is good for Trammy shards with what is good for Siege, when you are really only interested in what is good for you.

You tear down and build... nothing.


My track record speaks for itself. My suggestions and ideas are not tailored to what only interests me. If they were, then I wouldnt have suggested boosting monster loot so others could run in better gear. I would have held on to the advantage I have, rather than support a more fair game for all.

 

[Mook Chessy]

This!

slam me with a third party quote...wow some gm! (JOKE)

Please understand that Shay plays a specific template to do a specific task, one that he is very good at, I enjoy pvp differently.

All I am asking is that to have the freedom to move about the lands unseen 24/7 you should need to have 100 hiding and 120 stealth.

 

[Petra Fyde]

Cool it with the name calling please.

 

[Bruin]

Cool it with the name calling please.

QFT

If Cal and/or other devs are viewing this thread, would you want them to see a honest geniune discussion on the issues of Siege, or back and forth banter and name calling?

We all agree that Siege has problems that we would like addressed, we however do disagree on what the problem is and how to resolve it. Lets try and find common ground on issues so we can move forward on them. On issues we have differing opinions on, agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Pyrite_DTA]

I voted yes on this because I do not think any of these ideas will bring harm to Siege, not because I think they will be much help. Even if they help a little, its worth a try.

I am very grateful for the efforts of everyone trying to get some changes made.

I was disappointed to read:

"When it comes to housing or bank-box storage, Siege could not be coded any differently than other shards thus eliminating our thoughts of Grandfathered Housing or increased bank box storage."

I still think allowing new players more storage would be a big help. Several years ago when it was being discussed to allow people to place a second house per account if placed on Siege, I objected loudly- and still do. At that time, I suggested to increase the bank storage for anyone on a shard that does not own a house on that shard.

What seems to have been lost over the years about that suggestion is that I thought this increase in bank storage to say 500 or 600 items should apply to ALL SHARDS- not just Siege.

That would allow any one to play on any other shard with increased storage as long as they did not own a house on that shard.

I think this would allow anyone new to UO the ability to experiment a bit without feeling pressured to pick a shard to place a house right away. They would have enough storage to collect quite a bit of stuff while deciding what shard they like best.

It would allow players to come explore Siege a while before needing to move their house from their original shard. But it would also allow everyone to explore all shards. That's a plus for UO in general.

Also the big plus in this idea is that Siege would not have to be coded differently. Everyone would get it. And we would have increased storage for newbies on Siege.

Thanks again,
Py

 

[CroakerTnT]

QFT

On issues we have differing opinions on, agree to disagree and move on.

Yup. This crew will never be 100%, best we can hope for is a majority. I think we've far exceeded that in this case.

I'd still like to see BR reactivated though. I loved it.

 

[Draxous]

QFT

On issues we have differing opinions on, agree to disagree and move on.

Yup. This crew will never be 100%, best we can hope for is a majority. I think we've far exceeded that in this case.

I'd still like to see BR reactivated though. I loved it.

I think it's pretty clear we're all looking forward to seeing the things listed in the original post being addressed.

I hope the passive detect discussion does not detract from those being addressed.

I also hope that the devs look at hiding/stealth as a balance issue on this shard that needs to be address in some way, shape or form and not ignored or put off. It allows for easier survivability (great reward) for very little risk.

I really hope this imbalance is addressed as well.

I'm still waiting to hear if passive detect is low hanging fruit or not... and if not, what possible alternatives to this problem are considered LHF

 

[CroakerTnT]

definitely agreed.

 

[Kage]

Anymore news on Low Hanging Fruit?

 

[Bruin]

Just to let everyone know, an email was sent to Cal a couple days ago requesting exactly what was in this poll, with a link to this thread.

I am hopeful that we will see some changes, but I want to caution everyone that nothing concrete was promised by the devs.

 

[Davy]

Not sure if this would be considered LHF but it was done before. After these changes are put in how hard would it be to put in another test siege. Just a test shard with siege rulesets with the new changes maybe would help people play and realize how fun siege is.