Legitimate Concern With Ending Scripting

[Tinsil]

First.. It's still a big IF that they follow through on any of what they've said. But, assuming they do.. I have one issue with it, in particular with resource gathering.

It seems the majority of people who complain about resource gathering scripting are mostly angered at those who do this in mass and try to sell the gold, etc, and hurt the economy. However, I know many individual players that do it for their own uses such as filling bods, having ingots to craft armor and the like. Now, in a perfect UO.. This is still a big problem because it does hurt those who mine legitimately, no matter how small this number of people is.

Okay now I'll get to the point. If scripting as it is now is ended, then my concern is those who seek to really make the money off the game, will find another way/program/whatever to still keep doing it.. and because prices will be driven up by your casual scripters being gone, They'll make even way more money off the game than they already do, and damage the economy. Then, you'll have the super greedy people abusing the game, while the casual player is hurt even worse because of the change.

I fear something like this would happen. Even in other games I won't name that have "anti-cheating" utilities.. Those who want to cheat still do, and get away with it enough to profit immensely.

Whatcha think UHall?

 

[Old Man of UO]

If the scripting ends and the prices of these resources raise to the point that it makes it worthwhile for me to sell, then I'll sell the ones I've gathered (legitimately) and go gather more to sell. You can do the same.

Right now, I just keep them for my own use. The prices will rise and fall with market demands. Be willing to pay a fair price and more people will gather those resources. We really don't need scriptors at all.

 

[Tinsil]

Right. I'm not saying we NEED them, as much as I'm saying I'm afraid the big time ones (those do it for cash) will just do it even more, and profit off it more than the semi-casual player does now.

I'd love to get to a completely legitimate system of resource gathering, but even if they follow through.. After looking at other games, I can't see the anti-cheat system being completely fair without missing some programs.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

Old Man, I hope you realize that you and your "legit resource gathering" strategy falls in the minority. There are not enough people crazy enough to waste their time clicking over and over to keep up the supply for the entire UO community. Like it or not, they ARE needed and UO will fail without them.

 

[It Lives]

I think I see a lot of people getting really nervous, and I hope it gives the unattended/non-approved ulcers.

 

[Lynk]

Anyone that says they've never used said scripting program is either a liar or an idiot. (or both*)

 

[Evlar]

Anyone that says they've never used said scripting program is either a liar or an idiot. (or both*)

*raises hand*

\o.

I'm an idiot then

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

I think I see a lot of people getting really nervous, and I hope it gives the unattended/non-approved ulcers.

Your mistaking nervous for irritated. Everything that is changed in UO, ultimately results in somehow making it worse...at this point it is just a vicious cycle. Removing 3rd party programs (note i'm referring to removing scripting NOT speedhacks...I don't care if they remove speedhacks) will just take UO one step closer to MMO heaven.

 

[T-Hunt]

Hmmm you think there antyscript is going to work?

Hard to tell ,hope it does some atlees..

I still alot of script miners around and are a royle pain in the arse....

But i know of a good way to stop that,,

Hey Devs what if insted of needing gargoyle pickaxe to spawn eles , any shovel or pick will do it...

Set it also so that you can not recall out for 5 seconds when one does pop..

Bet you will see a few dead scripters around, and trust me there not hard to kill using a -20 mage bow .

I think most miners have magery so thats np i can see...

Anyone else think there may be a problem here?

 

[Old Man of UO]

Anyone that says they've never used said scripting program is either a liar or an idiot. (or both*)

*raises hand*

\o.

I'm an idiot then

I'm and idiot too, then.. guess I'm in good company here with Evlar.

 

[Old Man of UO]

Old Man, I hope you realize that you and your "legit resource gathering" strategy falls in the minority. There are not enough people crazy enough to waste their time clicking over and over to keep up the supply for the entire UO community. Like it or not, they ARE needed and UO will fail without them.

Show me one legitimate source that says I am in the minority with my "legit resource gathering" strategy> Just one... prove your statements. Time after time i see the same false claims, and no one can back it up.

 

[Tina Small]

I expect we may see additional quests for acquiring resources and/or converting the more abundant ones to the rarer ones. We already have a couple of quests now for converting up to 500 of one type of ingot into 500 of another type of ingot.

Perhaps instead of trying to make arguments to justify using scripting for resource gathering, people who have concerns about getting the resources they think they'll need could put on their thinking caps and come up with some new ways to acquire resources that EVERYONE who plays UO can use and enjoy without having to depend on any kind of outside programming.

 

[Tinsil]

I don't think any of you has addressed my main concern.

Which is that.. If whatever the anti-cheating thing is goes through.. The greedy cheaters that the vast majority of UO doesn't like will still cheat and make even more money.. While your casual "cheater" (scripter) will be hurt more.

 

[Old Man of UO]

I don't think any of you has addressed my main concern...

I did address your point. I guess you just didn't like my answer.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

About prices, someone else has said something very similar to what I think.

Prices will go up for awhile. Then, will come back down due to 2 forces.

One is that gold farming can be scripted too, and thus there's an artificial amount of gold out there.

The other is that the market will eventually drive down prices.

As is the case with any cheat....Be it scripting, speed-hacking, or anything?

There's 3 categories.

One is those who can't do it without the cheats. Most of these people will vanish; some, I hope, will learn to play legitimately and get on with the fun.

Two is those who can do it without the cheats, but know that they can get away with cheating, so they cheat to save themselves time and effort. (Example: Many PvPers who can PvP well now will still be good after cheating is eliminated or greatly lessened. Not all, but many.)

Three is those who cheat because they are in direct competition with cheaters.

Categories Two and Three, I think the vast majority of them will just carry right along. Maybe it'll take 2 days to fulfill BODs instead of 1.

-Galen's player

 

[Tinsil]

I did address your point. I guess you just didn't like my answer.

My bad. You did. I read yours like way before everyone else's.. and thereafter no one did.

Anyways, Idk Galen. I think it's pretty possible they'd just find new programs to cheat with. This has been possible in other games where anti-cheat has been implemented (games with way more money/effort put into it).. So I'm skeptical we'd get some sort of magical perfect system here.

 

[GarthGrey]

Just put all resources on NPC vendors and be done with it. The casual player will farm just enough gold to buy their resources from NPCs. The non stop gamers (the ones that actually script and truly hurt the game) can start getting banned left and right for Gold farming scripts.

 

[WarderDragon]

Anyone that says they've never used said scripting program is either a liar or an idiot. (or both*)

Then I must be the biggest dunce of them all.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

My bad. You did. I read yours like way before everyone else's.. and thereafter no one did.

Anyways, Idk Galen. I think it's pretty possible they'd just find new programs to cheat with. This has been possible in other games where anti-cheat has been implemented (games with way more money/effort put into it).. So I'm skeptical we'd get some sort of magical perfect system here.

Never once said we would. I suppose you could read my post as assuming that, but I wasn't when I wrote it.

There's somewhere from 1 to 3 programs here that are the real concern. One in particular, known as "the scripting program" to avoid mentioning it by name. You can do a lot with it, way more than most people realize.

Until and unless we get rid of it, and speed-hacking, I'm not sure we'll even know how much cheating there really is!

-Galen's player

 

[Cogniac]

Old Man, I hope you realize that you and your "legit resource gathering" strategy falls in the minority. There are not enough people crazy enough to waste their time clicking over and over to keep up the supply for the entire UO community. Like it or not, they ARE needed and UO will fail without them.

Show me one legitimate source that says I am in the minority with my "legit resource gathering" strategy> Just one... prove your statements. Time after time i see the same false claims, and no one can back it up.

A thought:

Take a look at Long Tail theory. On this graph, right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Long_tail.svg, imagine that the Y-axis represents volume of resources scripted, and the X-axis is divided to contain every resource gathering player in UO. The green section is scripter resource farmers, the yellow section is by-hand resource gatherers.

Obviously, there are far more distinct players in the yellow section (as it is implied to stretch of the right side of the graph), however, the bulk of the resources are in the green (which is implied to stretch of the top of the graph). The idea here is that there are, in fact, far more individuals that gather resources without the use of scripting, however, the majority of actual resources comes from the scripters.

The point: You are both arguing the same thing. The majority of resource gatherers are "legitimate," as Old Man claims. However, the majority of actual resources come from a much smaller pool of mega-scripters, and their removal from the system would result in a dearth of resources for all, as Ls claims.

 

[Ransom_of_BiC]

I am still, after 10 years, surprised that we are forbidden from saying the name of a program. I feel like a Harry Potter character who is forbidden to say the name, "Voldemort".

 

[RawHeadRex]

First.. It's still a big IF that they follow through on any of what they've said. But, assuming they do.. I have one issue with it, in particular with resource gathering.

It seems the majority of people who complain about resource gathering scripting are mostly angered at those who do this in mass and try to sell the gold, etc, and hurt the economy. However, I know many individual players that do it for their own uses such as filling bods, having ingots to craft armor and the like. Now, in a perfect UO.. This is still a big problem because it does hurt those who mine legitimately, no matter how small this number of people is.

Okay now I'll get to the point. If scripting as it is now is ended, then my concern is those who seek to really make the money off the game, will find another way/program/whatever to still keep doing it.. and because prices will be driven up by your casual scripters being gone, They'll make even way more money off the game than they already do, and damage the economy. Then, you'll have the super greedy people abusing the game, while the casual player is hurt even worse because of the change.

I fear something like this would happen. Even in other games I won't name that have "anti-cheating" utilities.. Those who want to cheat still do, and get away with it enough to profit immensely.

Whatcha think UHall?

other games that implement anti-cheat measures have no problem with people trying to circumvent. this is not the performance drug enhancement industry where they are ten years ahead of the testers.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Anyone that says they've never used said scripting program is either a liar or an idiot. (or both*)

Anyone who presumes that they know the playerbase well enough to make that kind of assumption has done the typical thing with a mule and "umption," and is, how shall I say, delusional or an idiot. (or both*)

 

[Lord Chaos]

Actually several MMOs have trouble stopping cheaters even with anti-cheat measures.

Anyway, even if resources increased in value, they would still not be worth gathering compared to just farming gold.

In the end, the sellers will make tons of money as they're stockpiling mass amounts and will sell high once prices rise.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

However, I know many individual players that do it for their own uses such as filling bods, having ingots to craft armor and the like. Now, in a perfect UO.. This is still a big problem because it does hurt those who mine legitimately, no matter how small this number of people is. (emphasis mine)

Removing scripting hurts no one who mines or performs any other action in the game legitimately.

There are no legitimate uses for scripts, because there are no legal uses for scripts.

Me, I'm concerned the search sites will go the way of the dodo, but if that's what it takes to get rid of scripters, well, so be it.

The assertion that people will just find some other way to cheat the system... sure, that may be true... but hopefully (and this is a big hopefully) they've built the system with some measure of intelligence, and doing so won't be easy; and even when done, the system is hopefully (again, a big hopefully) adaptable.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

First.. It's still a big IF that they follow through on any of what they've said. But, assuming they do.. I have one issue with it, in particular with resource gathering.

It seems the majority of people who complain about resource gathering scripting are mostly angered at those who do this in mass and try to sell the gold, etc, and hurt the economy. However, I know many individual players that do it for their own uses such as filling bods, having ingots to craft armor and the like. Now, in a perfect UO.. This is still a big problem because it does hurt those who mine legitimately, no matter how small this number of people is.

Okay now I'll get to the point. If scripting as it is now is ended, then my concern is those who seek to really make the money off the game, will find another way/program/whatever to still keep doing it.. and because prices will be driven up by your casual scripters being gone, They'll make even way more money off the game than they already do, and damage the economy. Then, you'll have the super greedy people abusing the game, while the casual player is hurt even worse because of the change.

I fear something like this would happen. Even in other games I won't name that have "anti-cheating" utilities.. Those who want to cheat still do, and get away with it enough to profit immensely.

Whatcha think UHall?

Listen all. Money is made with or without scripting. It doesnt matter.

When ebay was taking UO stuff I sold stuff. Gold sold for $20 per million. Ebay ended. I stopped.

My point. 20 million gold for $20 or 1 million gold for $20 is all that would happen.

Sellers would still sell in different quantities. Selling will never end.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I don't think any of you has addressed my main concern.

Which is that.. If whatever the anti-cheating thing is goes through.. The greedy cheaters that the vast majority of UO doesn't like will still cheat and make even more money.. While your casual "cheater" (scripter) will be hurt more.

I think you're making broad economic presumptions based on a flawed economic situation; no offense, but I don't think the "greedy cheater" will suddenly make "more" if the system goes into place. And even if it takes out the "casual cheater" -- or what I like to call "cheater" -- I'm actually fine with that.

See, I'm one of those folk that believes if you're going to play the game play it as it's intended to be played. I don't play Monopoly by first running out to the store and buying a pack of extra money, coming home, and then putting it in front of myself saying, "Look at all the extra money I have... it's legit money, and it's mine, therefore I can spend it during gameplay!"

I've never understood the need to cheat. It lessens accomplishment, it lessens the enjoyment of playing, and if there's something in the game that is too tedious to do, then open a dialog on that and try to enact change. However, the whole idea of "Well, I don't actually want to have to work to gather my resources..." garbage is just that: garbage. If you don't want to gather them yourself, pay someone else to do it... there are people who WILL do it to make money at it. And they don't need to have some illegal program to do it. If it's boring, just don't do it.

 

[Tinsil]

other games that implement anti-cheat measures have no problem with people trying to circumvent. this is not the performance drug enhancement industry where they are ten years ahead of the testers.

Wrong. The most popular MMO of all has a huge problem with in particular -- you guessed it -- resource gathering.

And we're talking about a company in that game that has put tons of money into developing the software and actually TRIES to get rid of cheating.. And it's still a big problem.

 

[Old Man of UO]

.... The point: You are both arguing the same thing. The majority of resource gatherers are "legitimate," as Old Man claims. However, the majority of actual resources come from a much smaller pool of mega-scripters, and their removal from the system would result in a dearth of resources for all, as Ls claims.

I absolutely agree with this, and have said as much before, but didn't say it as well as you did here. If it ever got to the point that a large number or players actually scripted resources, no one would be buying these resources and the scriptor-for-money scriptors would quit.

... Me, I'm concerned the search sites will go the way of the dodo, but if that's what it takes to get rid of scripters, well, so be it.....

and I agree with this point on the search sites.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Wrong. The most popular MMO of all has a huge problem with in particular -- you guessed it -- resource gathering.

That's actually one of the largest myths there is in the game.

As a player and a regular resource gatherer in a game where, believe you me, getting resources is a bit more difficult than here in UO, there is not some huge conglomerate that is making it difficult for everyone to get resources. Just like any other game, if you put in the time, you'll get the resources you need -- I do quite well finding the "rare" frost lotus and titanium veins.

Perhaps the few "cheaters" (who aren't actually proven to be doing what many claim are doing -- some of the videos can actually be explained by the game's own transmission lag which happens when people cross at high speed near each other) actually "are" cheating -- it's not a rampant issue. And the number of gold farmers converse to the number of gold buyers makes it a ridiculously low figure.

That huge company isn't having as much of a problem dealing with this stuff as the cheaters would like us to believe. You might find it curious -- if you believe otherwise -- to note that a friend of mine who got hacked got suspended from the game before he realized he'd been hacked for, yes, you guessed it, selling gold. The hacker sold all his items, sold the gold, and the account got banned because the company didn't know the account got hacked. My friend did, indeed, get his account back, restored, and is playing just fine (with an authenticator). Funny they should have banned him so quickly if they were having such a problem detecting this sort of thing.

 

[Lady Michelle]

Anyone that says they've never used said scripting program is either a liar or an idiot. (or both*)

*raises hand*

\o.

I'm an idiot then

I'm and idiot too, then.. guess I'm in good company here with Evlar.

LOL I guess I'll be joining you in the idiot section. I refuse to download illegal programs on my pc.

 

[Warpig Inc]

As an idiot I'd like to thank the others for running off everyone but one from playing UO I've known in over a decade of playing.

Also speaking as an honest idiot gatherer. Those that honestly gathered BODs and supply vendors with made and enhanced armors have no issue with honestly gathered supplies. The only one that still needs a boost is Dull Copper. And for many years I've see no reason rare ore dull copper eli shouldn't have 25 ore. Even the spawned ones and the need for the picks to spawn them. Looking all the rewards earned through dull BODs nothing is that great.

Thanks to the Boura spine & horned is not that bad and a quest to do on top of it.

Wood should of come out after the random locations or the Turn Ins should of been monitored to put an axe to the accounts gaining from the junk accounts. Said it before say it again,"Where is my damn Reaper Hatchet for spawning rare wood treefolk"

The gems and crystals Should been tracked ingame. Soon as a pile hit 50 that account should of been on an observe list.

Wonder what those plp think of a house with 22 ore carts is a play style. Noone asked but the stumps and carts should of had a limit on how many a house could have.

In the end those that defend scripting and whatever loop hole still wont convince me that jumping off a bridge is called flying.

 

[I Am Hypnotic]

I don't like getting rid of the scripts simply because I love searchUO and I hate training skills by hand. Everything else I don't really care about.

Like it or not to me and I hope most people agree that some 3rd party program use should not be illeegal or taken away. It's just a fact.

 

[Tinsil]

I'm not like seriously trying to defend cheating..

It's just the people I don't care for in UO are the ones who mass-script, dupe, sell stuff for money from these means, etc.

Average joe-scripter has never bothered me, because he individually doesn't do enough to impact my game play. It's the big ones that do affect the game's economy.

 

[Tinsil]

Like it or not to me and I hope most people agree that some 3rd party program use should not be illeegal or taken away. It's just a fact.

MOST people are this way. It's just stratics, as I said in another thread, has a unproportionally large number of complete "i have never done anything wrong in my life" do-gooders.

It's not representative of the game's population, at least from my experience.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I don't like getting rid of the scripts simply because I love searchUO and I hate training skills by hand. Everything else I don't really care about.

Like it or not to me and I hope most people agree that some 3rd party program use should not be illeegal or taken away. It's just a fact.

On the other hand, the search sites could adapt by putting things in the hands of the players... I'm sure someone could write a script for the EC that at very least took all of the item names from list view and exported them to a text file, combined with a "where" that the person was standing. Then each person who wants listed could simply submit their own information when they restock their vendors.

Heck, in Luna, I'm sure at the conglomerate houses, someone might volunteer to take on that responsibility.

Just because scripts are the easiest way to do it doesn't mean that they're the only way to do it.

 

[I Am Hypnotic]

Yea I don't mass gather ****. I've never had a miner. I only use the first crafter I have ever had that I made 3 months ago to make armor for myself or friends. I simply like building characters so I can pvp on multiple shards. That is why I don't want that certain program to be gone. When it comes to pvp'ng you aren't going to get new people into the game if it means they have to sit there and hit a button for a week just to get a playable character.

This will ultimately hurt UO which I am definitely against.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Well, both sides are forgetting THE biggest problem with this.

Its not about cheaters, its not about anti-cheaters.

It is that Mythic is painting themselves into a corner, a lose-lose situation.

Now the anti-script/cheaters have blood on their teeth and won't stop, and as such will cancel if this goes wrong or not done right. And that will cause their friends and guildmates to maybe quit and so on.

And then the cheaters even if it just half work will also be out of the game in large numbers and along with them many their friends, guildmates, etc.

So by even starting this whole process they're going to run into a situation they can't win no matter what happens, whether the measure works or doesn't work doesn't matter in the end, as there'll be great loss to UO either way or worse, loss both ways.

 

[Tinsil]

Well, both sides are forgetting THE biggest problem with this.

Its not about cheaters, its not about anti-cheaters.

It is that Mythic is painting themselves into a corner, a lose-lose situation.

Now the anti-script/cheaters have blood on their teeth and won't stop, and as such will cancel if this goes wrong or not done right. And that will cause their friends and guildmates to maybe quit and so on.

And then the cheaters even if it just half work will also be out of the game in large numbers and along with them many their friends, guildmates, etc.

So by even starting this whole process they're going to run into a situation they can't win no matter what happens, whether the measure works or doesn't work doesn't matter in the end, as there'll be great loss to UO either way or worse, loss both ways.

Good point. They may have been better off just adding new content and fixing things than worrying about this big problem.

 

[Yen Sid]

Anyone that says they've never used said scripting program is either a liar or an idiot. (or both*)

I'm no liar, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not an idiot either. I guess I fall into category 3, someone that plays the game to, well, play the game. I'm don't play to have a program do everything for me. Never have, never will. I have never even used UOA...

So basically your saying that you script, good to know...

 

[Lynk]

Those that are running 15-20 accounts 23 hours a day scripting resources, etc, would be the ones encouraging the anti-cheating methods.

Why? Because they are smart enough to know that it will be easy to evade if you know what you're doing. Most of the 'script kiddies' who download the scripts generated for public consumption will stop using it, giving these "I've never done anything wrong in UO EVAR!" people a broader share of the market.

I wonder who might fall under that category in this thread...

 

[Lynk]

I'm no liar, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not an idiot either. I guess I fall into category 3, someone that plays the game to, well, play the game. I'm don't play to have a program do everything for me. Never have, never will. I have never even used UOA...

So basically your saying that you script, good to know...

I have never pushed my space bar 16,986 times to cast curse weapon on a character with 0 necromancy to get my spirit speak to 115.

Call me whatever you want, but if you sat and pushed your space bar 16,986 times then you're an idiot.

 

[Tinsil]

That's possibly true as well... Didn't think of it like that.

As said, from playing other games, the big-time cheaters will still cheat.. and will make more money than ever if this probably bad system is implemented.

Edit: please keep blatant name-calling/attacks out of it though.. don't want this to get locked too early!! ty.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Good point. They may have been better off just adding new content and fixing things than worrying about this big problem.

They should have left it as a mild battle between both sides...take care of the baddest cheats and the dupes, but concentrate on the game. Anti-cheaters will continue to play mostly, cheaters will continue to play mostly.

This game is not like WoW that has the graphics, gameplay, advertisement and product placement to draw in a crowd.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Yea I don't mass gather ****. I've never had a miner. I only use the first crafter I have ever had that I made 3 months ago to make armor for myself or friends. I simply like building characters so I can pvp on multiple shards. That is why I don't want that certain program to be gone. When it comes to pvp'ng you aren't going to get new people into the game if it means they have to sit there and hit a button for a week just to get a playable character.

This will ultimately hurt UO which I am definitely against.

Because, you know, actually building a character to play is so pointless.

If you want to play an FPS, go play an FPS. Otherwise, build a character just like everyone else does. If it's boring to keep building characters, then go buy some transfer tokens, or go buy some advanced character tokens, but don't act like actually having to play the game in order to play the game is some sort of inconvenience. Choose a shard. Stick with it. But for crying out loud, don't use your lack of ability to make a choice and stick with it as an excuse for scripting being a "good" thing.

 

[RawHeadRex]

I'm not like seriously trying to defend cheating..

It's just the people I don't care for in UO are the ones who mass-script, dupe, sell stuff for money from these means, etc.

Average joe-scripter has never bothered me, because he individually doesn't do enough to impact my game play. It's the big ones that do affect the game's economy.

why does average joe need to in the first place ?

 

[Tinsil]

why does average joe need to in the first place ?

He doesn't NEED to.. But he does, mostly. So with a new system, instead of average joe getting some of the money.. It just goes to more greedy people than joe! That's how I see it happening.

Exactly "why" would be a whole new thread and would digress from the main concern of this thread though, i think.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I wonder who might fall under that category in this thread...

Stop trolling. Stop making false accusations. And stop trying to paint those who claim not to use the program as liars. The funny thing is no one could ever prove to you one way or another whether they do or not, but based on your stance, EVERYONE in UO has used one.

If that were TRULY the case, Mythic wouldn't be trying to FIX the problem.

What IS the truth is that a MAJORITY of the players DO NOT USE said program, and thus Mythic is trying to preserve the proper game for proper players.

What's funny is that every time we get on topics of scripting, folks like you and Lord Chaos come out of the woodwork indicating that "if Mythic fixes this" or "all players that."

You know what they say about the people who doth protest too much. Perhaps before casting aspersions, you might go look in a mirror.

 

[Old Man of UO]

... It's just a fact.

That's called an "Opinion" not a "Fact."

 

[RawHeadRex]

He doesn't NEED to.. But he does, mostly. So with a new system, instead of average joe getting some of the money.. It just goes to more greedy people than joe! That's how I see it happening.

Exactly "why" would be a whole new thread and would digress from the main concern of this thread though, i think.

if everyone that scripts has to gather the old fashion way ... how does the money go to 'more greedy people' when scripting is not available ?