If mastery skills require mana, while all the limitations?

[Luke Carjacker]

The fact that bard mastery skills require mana to cast, and additional mana to maintain (the only skills I can think of with this limitation) along with the onerous and mandatory cool down between uses, why is it necessary to also limit effects by making them stop when you cast spells? Isn't mana the inherent limitation?

Here are the situations & templates where I can imagine this working:

bard/archer - yes yes, we need some more ways to make archers more powerful. Archers can now start a bard song and continue to fire away - except is there any imaginable situation where bard song would be preferable to the insanely powerful combinations archers already have with chivalry, bushido, healing, ninjitsu, stealth, hiding etc.? I don't see it.

fire & forget bard/tamer - tamers that send in their pets to do all the work. Of course, this isn't terribly effective in most situations (not to mention totally lacking in skill).

bard/warrior - but only those that like to kill stuff that doesn't fight back because bard songs end when you take too much damage. Cow hunting ftw!

stand in the corner bard - yep, here's the template that works without any limitations... other than the limitation of being forced to stand in the corner and do nothing of course.

Templates that don't work (or will not benefit at all from the new skills):

bard/mage - my favorite and the longtime template of my main char. Can't cast spells. Masteries are useless.

real bard/archer - set up to use enemy of one, consecrate, lightning strike, along with provoke or discord. Can't use the spells. Masteries useless.

real bard/warrior - can't keep taking damage & maintain song effect. Masteries pale when compared to alternatives of base bard skills or other more useful skills (like sampire template)

bard/tamer that likes to help - can't heal pet with spells, can't dispel revenants, can't invis, can't take damage. Can't see why anyone would give up all those things for bard mastery. Not at all, not to mention base discord or provoke is just plain better in these situations.

necro peacer - can't cast spells.



So, I appreciate Logrus' responses and I hope he can answer this. If the mastery bard songs are going to be limited by casting mana & maintenance mana, why is it necessary to further limit the use of these skills. Bards already have a built it skill-use delay that cannot be shortened.

Why not just let bards roll with whatever they can get done with the mana they have? If I want to use bard song & continue to drop spells or use warrior specials, I'll run out of mana quicker; or I'll have to figure out a way to leech mana. Warriors are allowed to leech mana. Mages are allowed to leech mana. Bards are allowed to stand around and do nothing as mana drains away. Why?

 

[AzSel]

Thats what I didnt get either. I like the masteries alot, but why take away every kind of offenciveness you have while having them activated (except if youre a pure warrior anno 1998) It just doesnt make sense to me. Nobody will be able to use the masteries effectively for themself.

 

[Pinco]

I made a list of all possible templates:
http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=209966

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

somewhat off topic, but has anyone tried to use wraith form with the damaging bardic mastery ability? Since leeching was mentioned and all....I had not really thought about it before, but does it leech?

 

[Pinco]

yes, it leech, but why you need to leech mana if you cant do nothing than run and watch (while doing a ridiculous damage againist high physical resist)?

 

[Luke Carjacker]

yes, it leech, but why you need to leech mana if you cant do nothing than run and watch (while doing a ridiculous damage againist high physical resist)?

When Pinco says "ridiculous damage" he means "ridiculously small damage". The despair mastery does 60 points of physical damage with 120 discord. Against someone or something with 70 physical resist that means 18 damage every 2 seconds. This spell costs 30 mana to cast and 10 mana upkeep.

Wraith form with 120 spirit speak allows you to leech 24% of the damage you you as mana. So, you'll be leeching back 24% of 18 points of damage.

And like Pinco said, while you're dealing out this awesome damage (not), you get to sit back and watch because doing anything or taking damage will end it.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I'm sorry, but I'm not finding half this to be true. What onerous cool down? I cast it, stopped it, then cast it again. Only delay was in the casting time.
Using it with a pet, you can send your pet in to kill, you can vet the pet, you can throw an explosion pot, you can drink a potion.
You can summon an earth ele or EV before casting the spell. You can cast Gift of renewal before casting the spell and it will stay in effect.
Using it pure bard: you can use all the bard abilities while the spell is in effect, or you could disco and provo first then cast the spell?

There's a lot of things you can do, you're only focusing on what you can't.

 

[Shelleybean]

I'm sorry, but I'm not finding half this to be true. What onerous cool down? I cast it, stopped it, then cast it again. Only delay was in the casting time.
Using it with a pet, you can send your pet in to kill, you can vet the pet, you can throw an explosion pot, you can drink a potion.
You can summon an earth ele or EV before casting the spell. You can cast Gift of renewal before casting the spell and it will stay in effect.
Using it pure bard: you can use all the bard abilities while the spell is in effect, or you could disco and provo first then cast the spell?

There's a lot of things you can do, you're only focusing on what you can't.

Actually Petra, Logrus indicated in another thread that using a bard skill will cancel out the spell. For example, using despair will cancel out discordance. So if you only have one barding skill, you have to choose between using the skill or using the spell.

 

[Petra Fyde]

ah, sorry. I could have sworn I'd used all three skills.
Double checked, yes, only 2 can be used in conjunction with the spell. I still think people are taking the 'half empty cup' attitude instead of exploring the options. Heck if I took that attitude in life I'd be in a right mess. I've learned to say 'ok, I can't do that - so what can I do?' I've done it in my life, I've done it with uo.stratics site and I do it in UO.

 

[Pinco]

ok, let's see a tamer template:
animal taming 110
animal lore 110
vet 100
magery 100
medit 100
music 120
bard skill 120
760 skill points and no spellweaving or evaluating and the mana regeneration is not even enough to keep spells active... and if you choose discordance you will be under attack by your target...

 

[R Traveler]

Is it for one bard or for all bards?

Bard1 uses discord skill to reduce resists/skills
Bard2 uses despair to deal damage

 

[Shelleybean]

Well to be clear, the cancellation is related to the mastery vs skill. A provocation mastery won't cancel peace or disco for example. However when I first tested the discordance masteries, I could have sworn the monsters remained discoed while I was using despair. I meant to go back and check that but I forgot. I don't know how it works if there is more than one bard though. I would think one bard couldn't cancel another bard out, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.

Ok here is the thread:
http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=209680

Side Notes:
Bard abilities should only be cancelled by using the same skill as the mastery focus. (ie Using provocation will cancel Inspire and Invigorate, but not any of the other abilities)(If you want to Discord and Despair it'll take 2 Bards)

I stand corrected that bards will not cancel each other out.

 

[Pinco]

the main problem is that: the more are the bards with spell active, the more are the people who stand and watch because if you do something the effect is over. Discordance ability is like you are attacking the target and if its something with a breath or magic attack, the first flamestrike is for you and youre spell is broken.
This should have sense if you can evade or just attack like with an archer, but evade will break the effect and for make an acceptable damage you need to cast consacrate weapon...

 

[Luke Carjacker]

I'm sorry, but I'm not finding half this to be true. What onerous cool down? I cast it, stopped it, then cast it again. Only delay was in the casting time.
Using it with a pet, you can send your pet in to kill, you can vet the pet, you can throw an explosion pot, you can drink a potion.
You can summon an earth ele or EV before casting the spell. You can cast Gift of renewal before casting the spell and it will stay in effect.
Using it pure bard: you can use all the bard abilities while the spell is in effect, or you could disco and provo first then cast the spell?

There's a lot of things you can do, you're only focusing on what you can't.

I understand what you're saying, don't look a gift horse in the mouth and be happy for what we do get. That's a nice sentiment, but it's also pretty close to be happy with scraps in the alley while others get to dine at the table.

The real question for any skill in the game is whether there is an alternative that is better in a given situation, for a given mana cost, timing, etc.

Yes, a bard can throw explosion potions, but so can every profession. My crafter can be just as effective with explosion potions as a bard, so why must bards be penalized by having their effects canceled when used in conjunction with other skills? You can cast necro then magery no problem. You can cast chivalry then bushido then use weapon skill, no problem. You can say "all kill" then vet or heal with spells or spam paralyze on a target. Why treat bards differently?

Is there any situation where maintaining a bard effect will yield superior results to what mages, mystics, necros, samurais & archers can do? For the price of doing 60 physical damage every two seconds with despair (which will be about 15-20 damage after resist is factored in), I can use a bushido archer to do 150-250 damage using consecrate weapon to target the weakest resist & lightning strike for HCI and critical hit bonuses, not to mention hit spell, SSI, HLD, mana & stamina leech and insane mods in the suit and weapon (no available to bards).

Or, I can use a mystic in necro form, summon a rising colossus, get benefits from a slayer spellbook, smack people around with ice storm with area cold damage, wither, flamestrike, and so much more. Again, I'll be doing 10x the damage that a bard can, leech unlimited mana so I'll never have to stop and can protect myself by invising, hiding, paralyzing, sleeping, casting greater heal or cleansing winds etc. A bard can do none of that while maintaining the effect, then eventually run out of mana and be totally cooked.

The real power in most of the skills in the game is that they can be used creatively in conjunction with other skills. Some sound crazy (like sampires) but are crazy effective. Some are exactly as intended, like bushido archers or multi-school mages. The creative challenge is finding a combination of skills that work well together.

Why must bards be isolated from all this? Why can't bard skills be used in effective combination with any of the other skills?

So yes, looking on the bright side is one thing. I understand it's better to get a piece of rock hard bread and moldy cheese than it is to starve to death. But why must bards suffer with this when others are offered anything from a square meal to an outright feast?

I'll offer up this challenge to any naysayers. You tell me a situation/use/template where the bard skills would be most effective, and I'll come up with an alternative set of skills that can get the job done more powerfully, effectively & safely. We can even meet up to test it out if you want. When a skill is in this position, it will simply go unused.

 

[Logrus]

Simple answers for limitations.
It's much easier to give than take away.

There's nothing in the game similar to the bard mastery system. So pre-balancing it is hard, and I'd rather it be too restrictive so that I can tweak it up later, than it be too overpowered and then have to worry about reining it in.

 

[yars]

Simple answers for limitations.
It's much easier to give than take away.

There's nothing in the game similar to the bard mastery system. So pre-balancing it is hard, and I'd rather it be too restrictive so that I can tweak it up later, than it be too overpowered and then have to worry about reining it in.

qft