Mark, just FYI... Great Lakes is a shard...

[RaDian FlGith]

Trammel and Felucca are facets.

Even Ricardo would know that.

 

[Basara]

And maybe, just maybe, Ricardo MEANT shard.

Truthfully, considering just HOW different the other facets are from Tram/Fel, Ricardo brings up an interesting potential blockbuster. What IF Trammel wasn't originally a facet, but ANOTHER (NPC-only) SHARD, that the magic of the Crystal of Duplicity ALTERED INTO A FACET - and what happened to the original occupants? And, if so, what evils would those who did it unwittingly be responsible for, if Trammel was born by effectively overwriting another Felucca-only shard? After all, the crystal was Minax's, and she was hardly all sweetness & light.

Don't be so quick to dismiss what might seem as an obvious error. There could be much more sinister truths yet revealed. And, frankly, the type of incident would fall in quite well with Ultima (non-UO) lore, and explain in-game why Lord British chose exile, rather than resuming the throne, because in gathering the shards of the gem of immortality, he found out the horrible truth of what he'd done in creating Trammel. And, that itself, might explain why the TB & COM factions will disintegrate in the new system, once they realize what LB & Nystul really did...

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Excepting, of course, that this hypothetical explanation makes no sense in the context of anything...

It seems that the great Nystul, royal mage to Lord British, used it to copy the land in the shard that we now call Felucca onto the shard that we now call Trammel.

That indicates that if we move from Trammel to Felucca or vice versa, we're not travelling between facets of the same shard, we're moving between shards, and thus between different pieces of the Gem of Immortality entirely. This would also mean that Tokuno, Malas, Ter Mur, and Ilshenar are also "shards."

Except that the fiction has always been that each of our individual worlds exists within a "shard" of the Gem of Immortality, and that Minax came from one facet, attacked our then facet which became known as Felucca, and we fled to Trammel.

I get that we may not yet know what's coming, but if that's not an error, then we're completely redefining the terms "shard" and "facet," which makes me wonder how long it'll be before we're all just living inside "servers" that are housed within "Exodus" instead of on "shards" of the "gem" of "immortality."

Of course, if that means we get to exit "Exodus" and take part in Ultima Worlds Online : Origin finally, well, I guess I'll be okay with that, as long as it's a fully-realized 3D world.

 

[Tangled Metal]

Honestly I am shocked that they got something wrong with this new quest and such, everything else has been 100% spot on! (and by spot on I mean errors galore!)

 

[maroite]

Excepting, of course, that this hypothetical explanation makes no sense in the context of anything...



That indicates that if we move from Trammel to Felucca or vice versa, we're not travelling between facets of the same shard, we're moving between shards, and thus between different pieces of the Gem of Immortality entirely. This would also mean that Tokuno, Malas, Ter Mur, and Ilshenar are also "shards."

Except that the fiction has always been that each of our individual worlds exists within a "shard" of the Gem of Immortality, and that Minax came from one facet, attacked our then facet which became known as Felucca, and we fled to Trammel.

I get that we may not yet know what's coming, but if that's not an error, then we're completely redefining the terms "shard" and "facet," which makes me wonder how long it'll be before we're all just living inside "servers" that are housed within "Exodus" instead of on "shards" of the "gem" of "immortality."

Of course, if that means we get to exit "Exodus" and take part in Ultima Worlds Online : Origin finally, well, I guess I'll be okay with that, as long as it's a fully-realized 3D world.

WHAT?! And give up the 2D client?! Blaspheemer! ahahaha

On a side note, this thread made my head hurt... I guess I am not an Ultima lore buff.

On a side note, my guess is that to create Tram, he destroyed Ter Mur, or... most of it

 

[Trebr Drab]

Note, I don't know yet what you are talking about, I'm assuming. I've been locked away in my library in deep studies, and not out in the world at large.

Maybe Mark is trying to put things together? Or perhaps they always were "together", just not revealed to us?

One possibility is that our shards were shards within another shard, and the creation of Trammel "pushed" our shard upwards onto our host shard. Leaving Fel as the shard within Trammel?
(Another possibility is the "wayward shards".)

Per Nystul:
I stood at the largest of the stone structures in Britain as I opened the tome and started. All over the land I could sense the other structures ignite with life and burst to the heavens above. Pure energy as I have never felt in all of my years of arcane studies tore through me; cradled me in its grasp. I pulsed with the magic, drew it into me. Then released it into the night sky.

http://www.uoherald.com/archive/archive.php?archiveId=527

And this is why I've always held that our Lord British is not gone (from the same article):

I awoke to find the ancient tome no more then scattered ashes across my robe. The loss of such a vessel of knowledge made me momentarily wince in pain of loss; yet I could barely think of that in light of what I hoped had been accomplished. A hand helped me up from the ground then as a familiar voice spoke to me, “It is done.” I felt elation grip me as I stared at the world around me in pride. That feeling slowly fled though as I stared upon the wistful face of my liege and friend.

It was done indeed…

A wistful face that then changed from his stance that we were so familiar with, that the shards should be reunited into one. Replaced with Blackthorn's belief that the people should be allowed to continue as they are, and not destroyed by the destruction of their worlds in such a unification.

Wistful indeed....

 

[LordDrago]

Trammel and Felucca are facets.

Even Ricardo would know that.

Or.......Ricardo is a product of the Sossarian public education system.

 

[Basara]

Excepting, of course, that this hypothetical explanation makes no sense in the context of anything...

It seems that the great Nystul, royal mage to Lord British, used it to copy the land in the shard that we now call Felucca onto the shard that we now call Trammel.

Funny - seems to me like an awkward, slightly uneducated, way of saying that Trammel & Felucca were actually the Felucca(s) of two different shards, until Nystul reached out and grabbed what became Trammel (an empty Felucca of another shard), and juxtaposed it over one of the facets surrounding "his" Felucca to "create" the duplicate, not caring what might have been there before the juxtaposition. Tell me, how would YOU describe what was probably a tenth, eleventh or twelfth circle spell, if the only spells ninth or higher you'd seen in your life were the ninth level "Armageddon" and "Decay"? (and the latter went REALLY badly wrong, as anyone living in Yew Trammel prior to the return of the Elves can attest).

Even with the magery of Nystul, using an artifact of Minax, THAT level of creation should NOT have been possible by a mere mortal, or even one ascended into immortality.

On the other hand, we've got lore concerning Tokuno, Malas, Ilshenar, the Lost Lands, and even Heartwood & Ter Mur, of lands being "dragged elsewhere" by magic (and, typically, bad things happening as a result).

Hell, even Ambrosia from the original Ultima games falls into this meme of lands displaced via magics, with disastrous consequences, and some of the place names in Ilshenar reflect Sosarian names of places that mysteriously disappeared between the fall of Exodus in Ultima III, and the Stranger's return in Ultima IV. That same time period ALSO saw the elves and 3 other player races vanish from Sosaria, at least as common beings.

It would have been MUCH easier, once Nystul knew of the concept of shards, to STEAL someone else's (uninhabited? or did it just take the land and leave behind the inhabitants in limbo?) Felucca, and attach it (as Trammel) to his own (via replacing an existing facet - and what happened to anyone whose land was overwritten by Trammel?), on multiple shards, than ALL of the Shards' Nystuls combining forces to create even ONE Trammel totally from scratch. Is it really even possible for a resident of a shard to cut a new facet into the existing fragment?

And, yes, the implications of what I suggest would assuredly rock the theoretical leadership (as opposed to the battle leaders, which are PCs) of the two remaining "good" factions to the core - thereby explaining the new faction system.

Let's see what the other books say (previous info indicated a 10 or 12 day event, before people jumped the gun yesterday and proclaiming it done after 7 days thinking that the spell words were all there was), before we dismiss Ricardo's partially incoherent ramblings as a brain fart by a Dev.

 

[canary]

Or.......Ricardo is a product of the Sossarian public education system.

You mean Sosarian education system.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Or since Ricardo has gone crazy, he might just be saying it wrong.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Funny - seems to me like an awkward, slightly uneducated, way of saying that Trammel & Felucca were actually the Felucca(s) of two different shards, until Nystul reached out and grabbed what became Trammel (an empty Felucca of another shard), and juxtaposed it over one of the facets surrounding "his" Felucca to "create" the duplicate, not caring what might have been there before the juxtaposition. Tell me, how would YOU describe what was probably a tenth, eleventh or twelfth circle spell, if the only spells ninth or higher you'd seen in your life were the ninth level "Armageddon" and "Decay"? (and the latter went REALLY badly wrong, as anyone living in Yew Trammel prior to the return of the Elves can attest).

Except that, again, that makes absolutely no sense, unless we're discussing the Felucca that was inside one of the recursive shards of the Gem that was inside our own shard. But that still does not make any sense in the context of calling them the shards we call Trammel and Felucca. I don't know of anyone who calls any shard Trammel or Felucca.

But I will tell you this... how would I describe the spell? I would describe it as a spell cast in desperation trying to save the world from the invading forces of Minax... but they were not so desperate that they would have taken any old thing and dropped it into place and said, "God, I hope this is better than where we are now, because if we screw this up, we're in big doodoo." Neither Lord British nor Nystul were blooming idiots.

Now, did Nystul take Trammel from the "Felucca" inside the shard of the recursive Gem? Perhaps. But then... if he was willing to risk that, then perhaps he had some idea of what he was overwriting in the first place, because if he believed the recursive shard to be identical to our shard, he'd have some idea what he overwrote. However, I think instead, he learned that the facets existed -- hinted at because that's where Minax came (another facet) -- and he overwrote our Felucca onto what is now known as Trammel.

In none of this does calling "Trammel" and "Felucca" a "shard" make any sense, and it confuses terms already in place.

Even with the magery of Nystul, using an artifact of Minax, THAT level of creation should NOT have been possible by a mere mortal, or even one ascended into immortality.

Okay... perhaps... but then, the Gem of Immortality was bound to Sosaria by (oh... the Mondainites on Great Lakes are going to get to me for this one... heh) a mere mortal. And I think the plot implication derived thus far from this quest is that Minax stole it from Britannia first.

On the other hand, we've got lore concerning Tokuno, Malas, Ilshenar, the Lost Lands, and even Heartwood & Ter Mur, of lands being "dragged elsewhere" by magic (and, typically, bad things happening as a result).

Actually, the Lost Lands has no such fiction to it at all (at least until the Age of Shadows, when all of a sudden it became described as a facet), and rather that it was revealed by earthquakes caused by the Armageddon spell... Malas did not come dragged from anywhere, it's a world that's been decaying around itself (much like Ter Mur), and its people have been watching it decay...

from The Dark Facet

As I have explained in past essays, the Gem of Immortality was linked to our world when it was broken. As a result, copies of Sosaria exist within each of the broken fragments. As previous essays suggest, it is possible that copies of actual people may exist and thrive in different lives within these alternative Sosarias (I sometimes wonder if I have a duplicate in these worlds and how he fares). Although these alternate Sosarias appear to us as small globes within the shards and a great deal of detail cannot be seen, we have learned much. We know that just as the shards themselves are not in the original shape as the Gem of Immortality, the worlds within the shards are also different. Each facet of each shard holds a different world altogether. Through the larger and more uniform of the facets a nearly identical copy of Britannia can be seen, although differences can be detected in the geography of the land within the facet and our own true Britannia. However through the smaller and more uneven facets there are worlds so changed and bent that they look nothing like our Britannia and clearly have a civilization unlike any known to us.

Description of Ilshenar...[/]
In many of the shards one particular facet contains one single continent, wreathed in mountains and with a great white city that can be seen nestled in the center.

Description of the Lost Lands... first time it's called a facet...
Another facet contains an ancient looking land with swamps to the south and a desert to the north.

I can only theorize that the imperfect and sometimes jagged shape of the facets formed these strange worlds from what was to be a copy of Britannia. As the vessel that held the world changed, all elements of space, time and magic would also have to adapt to fit the new form. It is entirely possible that within each facet the past, present and future changed drastically to accommodate the new shape of its facet, a sort of retroactive continuity. Who knows what strange new civilizations could have been created in the distant past or future of these worlds?

And then we have details of the "Dark Facet" itself, Malas:

Each shard possesses one facet remarkably different from the rest, one I have named the "dark facet". The dark facet seems to have a shadow cast over it, almost as if it absorbs light. This facet also contains a world, but it is one unlike any I have ever dreamed. The land within appears to rest over a great void that seems to extend in all directions; it is as if a massive island rests on a dark sea of stars. Could it be that the laws of nature have become so bent in this facet that such a thing is possible? Did a great magic within the world create such a place? I may speculate for the rest of my life but the puzzle extends deeper still.

We can also tell from fiction that those of Malas know of Britannia:

from Part II: The Revival

"Everyone in Malas knows of the whirlpool," Grevel interrupted. "It sends people here. That's why we call this lake the Gatewater, everyone caught in the whirlpool arrives on these shores." Grevel paused. "For decades now people have searched for a way to return to Britannia but no one has found one. I'm afraid you boys are trapped here."

As for Ilshenar... EA wrote some fiction for it, didn't like it, and then pretended that the first fiction didn't happen at all. All the while, it was never suggested as anything more than another facet than in the same vein as Trammel, save that it was distorted from within that facet.

The Tokuno Islands:

from the Ultima Online Samurai Empire game manual...

The Tokuno Islands
It turns out that Sosaria is a larger world than we know. When Mondain shattered the Gem of Immortality it did not, as was previously believed, destroy the Land of the Feudal Lords. Rather the continent collided with another land, creating a time rip that would have lasting repercussions.

The survivors on the part of the Land of the Feudal Lords that would become the Tokuno Islands used their magic to protect their lands from outsiders. In this way the Tokuno Islands remained unknown to the inhabitants of Britannia until Minax discovered a way to cross the breach.

Again, none of this suggests that any of these things came from outside of our own world, but instead, all of it came from within, was already there, or was the result of being distorted by the various facets of the Gem of Immortality.

From

But the stories are true. The Elves do exist. They serve as caretakers to Sosaria, linked directly to the world itself, their health tied directly to that of the land. Perhaps not quite as beautiful, valorous, and brilliant as legend tells us. Real, but isolated and alone, they live out their lives in The Heartwood amidst the mighty branches of the world tree. Their knowledge has been passed from Lorekeeper to Lorekeeper, although their language is unsuited to writing and their traditions are complex and subtle. The Elves form a community in the truest sense, sharing equally and caring for one another with no concept of family or wealth.

This is all we really know about the elves... that they were cut off... and the idea, of course, is that they were reunited with a way to Heartwood. Same fact, same world.

As for Ter Mur...

from the UO Stygian Abyss home page

An entrance to the Stygian Abyss has been discovered upon the world of Sosaria, hidden in the seething caldera of a newly-risen volcano. At first glance nothing more than a colossal web of dank caverns and oppressive dungeons, it houses an ancient temple that acts as a barrier between the worlds of Sosaria and Ter Mur, home to the Gargoyles.

What we have here, of course, is fiction for Gargoyles slightly different than that of what was presented in Ultima Prime, however, we can presume that Ter Mur is what became of the gargoyles that we might normally have encountered were we to exist outside of the Gem of Immortality, and on Sosaria Prime.

Hell, even Ambrosia from the original Ultima games falls into this meme of lands displaced via magics, with disastrous consequences, and some of the place names in Ilshenar reflect Sosarian names of places that mysteriously disappeared between the fall of Exodus in Ultima III, and the Stranger's return in Ultima IV. That same time period ALSO saw the elves and 3 other player races vanish from Sosaria, at least as common beings.

Of course, you're simply supporting the previously established fiction that the facets each are some perversion of an original, existing Sosaria. The elves never returned in Ultima Prime, but our histories within the shards differ from Ultima Prime from the very moment we were trapped inside the shards of the Gem of Immortality and those who continued to exist within Sosaria Prime were not.

It would have been MUCH easier, once Nystul knew of the concept of shards, to STEAL someone else's (uninhabited? or did it just take the land and leave behind the inhabitants in limbo?) Felucca, and attach it (as Trammel) to his own (via replacing an existing facet - and what happened to anyone whose land was overwritten by Trammel?), on multiple shards, than ALL of the Shards' Nystuls combining forces to create even ONE Trammel totally from scratch. Is it really even possible for a resident of a shard to cut a new facet into the existing fragment?

Again, it would ONLY have been easy to steal Felucca from a recursive shard WITHIN our own shard. There is nothing to support the idea that -- aside from knowing that we existed upon a shard ourselves -- anyone (aside from the recursive Lord Britishes) knew how many shards of the original Gem from Sosaria Prime even existed, and certainly (aside from character transfers) there's nothing to support anything ever moving between those shards (save some fiction from players, some fiction from some EMs, and small announcements that indicate the same event is happening on all known shards that our characters would not be privy to in-game anyway). So while I support the idea that Nystul may have transplanted a Felucca from inside one of the recursive shards we know to have existed in our own shard, and placed it upon the facet of our own shard which we then dubbed Trammel, the final result is still two different FACETS, not the merging of two different shards.

We know, beyond any shadow of a doubt (established quite clearly by UO:R, UO:3D, UO:LBR, UO:AoS, UO:SA) that each Shard of the Gem of Immortality has different facets to it... a gem, to be frank, is not a one-dimensional or two-dimensional object.

And, yes, the implications of what I suggest would assuredly rock the theoretical leadership (as opposed to the battle leaders, which are PCs) of the two remaining "good" factions to the core - thereby explaining the new faction system.

Bleh... using this to explain faction fiction is a huge stretch of the imagination.

Let's see what the other books say (previous info indicated a 10 or 12 day event, before people jumped the gun yesterday and proclaiming it done after 7 days thinking that the spell words were all there was), before we dismiss Ricardo's partially incoherent ramblings as a brain fart by a Dev.

I never jumped the gun thinking that there were only 7 days... I simply said that it was the final spellword (as evidenced by the text of the journal itself). I read the original announcement which indicated that there would be ten tomes, and ten days worth of being able to do the quest.

It doesn't matter what the rest of the tomes say, in this particular case, regardless of outcome, these "incoherent ramblings" -- or as I like to call them, words in a book -- are the result of, as you so eloquently put it, a brain fart by a Dev.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Or since Ricardo has gone crazy, he might just be saying it wrong.

Thank you for your usual two cents.

He didn't say anything. He wrote it down.

And sure, he might have described it wrong, but then, the rest of what he's written thus far shows no indication that he's vapid as to what he writes, and in fact, shows more that he's taken notes along the way of something he deems to be curious.

Imagine that a lone thief discovers something that goes to the very core of todays' Sosarian foundation... he at very least seems disturbed by what he's found, and in fact, I suspect we'll learn it's this knowledge that may have driven him crazy.

Regardless, there's no reason to presume that Ricardo suddenly forgot the difference between a shard and a facet. Save that it's now in-game that way.

 

[Konge]

Thank you for your usual two cents.

He didn't say anything. He wrote it down.

And sure, he might have described it wrong, but then, the rest of what he's written thus far shows no indication that he's vapid as to what he writes, and in fact, shows more that he's taken notes along the way of something he deems to be curious.

Imagine that a lone thief discovers something that goes to the very core of todays' Sosarian foundation... he at very least seems disturbed by what he's found, and in fact, I suspect we'll learn it's this knowledge that may have driven him crazy.

Regardless, there's no reason to presume that Ricardo suddenly forgot the difference between a shard and a facet. Save that it's now in-game that way.

I didn't read the fiction so I'm sorry if there are errors.

Now, from my understanding, UO's servers are the shards of the gem of immortality that was broken on Mondain's death. Each with varying history and all that jazz, a copy of Sosaria.

Who's to say Ricardo even knows the difference between a Shard and a Faucet? Just an idea.

 

[canary]

Who's to say Ricardo even knows the difference between a Shard and a Faucet? Just an idea.

Well, it is called a FACET, first of all. A faucet is that thing you get water from.

 

[Lady Michelle]

Ricardo was not crazy when he wrote these books,and hid them in those locations. He had to have written them before he went to prison, since they haven't released him. Leaving him to rot in prison after being found innocent is enough to cause someone to become crazy.

 

[G.v.P]

I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the obvious. Not only was Ricardo a thief, he was a duper . And now he will teach us all how to dupe! Yay!

 

[Konge]

Well, it is called a FACET, first of all. A faucet is that thing you get water from.

I really don't care about typo's or homophonal errors. Please refrain from responding to any of my posts with "it's spelled this way..." As, I will just respond with a jumble of homophones and purposely misspelled words.

teh burd is dah wurd, yo. Also, you is teh worsed toll evah.

So their.

 

[Splup]

Didn't lose my nightsleep over this.

 

[Basara]

Until people started looking for other lands, the Facet we call "Felucca" was thought to be the whole of each shard.

And, how do continents collide, when the world is being ripped apart by magic, except through the very type of magical disasters I mention?

One would think that we'd have ran into more Tram/Fel resembling facet, if the gem really was like originally described in LB's propaganda for the move to Trammel.

Some of the fiction I saw, going back through uo.com seemed to indicate that the LL or Ilshenar were what was left of Ambrosia after further deformation and a temporal accident or two.

The contents of the 9th book is more to muse about; it's talking about Fel having lost or hidden duplicates of items that LB took into the void - as if Fel was the copy, not Trammel - or that it wasn't obvious initially to LB & Nystul that the unique items used to make the transformation, whatever it was, weren't unique to their facet, as they moved to Trammel, the copies in trammel might have bounced to the fel side (sorta like Kirk & co. in "Mirror, Mirror")

 

[LordDrago]

Or Ricardo wrote exactly what he wanted to write. Then, valuable intelligence assets would be wasted on the "error" and what it means....

Would not be the first instance of misdirection by a devious mind.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Until people started looking for other lands, the Facet we call "Felucca" was thought to be the whole of each shard.

True... but when we discovered that such was not the case, we continued to call the "shards" by the name "shards," and each facet within them by the name "facet."

And, how do continents collide, when the world is being ripped apart by magic, except through the very type of magical disasters I mention?

Your point being what? That because continents collided, there must have been shards joining? No. The collision happened at the creation of the worlds within the shards of the Gem of Immortality... you know, that moment when it shattered into the pieces on Sosaria Prime? Trying to redefine what happened just so that it fits the misuse of the terms "facet" and "shard" is bad form.

One would think that we'd have ran into more Tram/Fel resembling facet, if the gem really was like originally described in LB's propaganda for the move to Trammel.

From an in-character standpoint, we know that traversing the facets isn't as easy as saying, "Hmm... there must be a facet there, let's go." Which means, no, one would not think we'd have run into more Tram/Fel resembling facets.

From an out-of-character perspective, you and I both know the reason we haven't run into those types of facets is plain and simply because they got so much crap for doing it the first time that whomever decided to do it a second time would be signing his exit papers at the same time. They create different looking facets because they want to give us something new to explore. What would be the fun of exploring Felucca, Trammel, Trelucca, Felammel, Felumma, Traccel, Flameel, Flamazel, Trammiezhereincorporated?

Some of the fiction I saw, going back through uo.com seemed to indicate that the LL or Ilshenar were what was left of Ambrosia after further deformation and a temporal accident or two.

Indicated it how? None of the fiction anywhere in the game (save perhaps EM/Seer stuff) has ever referenced Ambrosia to my knowledge.

The contents of the 9th book is more to muse about; it's talking about Fel having lost or hidden duplicates of items that LB took into the void - as if Fel was the copy, not Trammel - or that it wasn't obvious initially to LB & Nystul that the unique items used to make the transformation, whatever it was, weren't unique to their facet, as they moved to Trammel, the copies in trammel might have bounced to the fel side (sorta like Kirk & co. in "Mirror, Mirror")

Don't get me wrong, Basara, I'm not saying at all that the prospect that something went wonky when Trammel was created is a bad thing. I was saying that in-character when the actual formation occurred. All I'm saying is "Hey, use your terms correctly, and create interesting, deep stories that don't make the people involved go, 'Oh no. Not again.'" I'll be honest, I'm tired of feeling like a bowl of petunias*.


* 50 points to whomever identifies the reference.

Legalese... The 50 points are not valid for real money, fake money, or any money whatsoever. These points are not spendable, but certainly collectible. At the accrual of 50,000,000,000 points, you will be the winner. Of the game. And if I just made you think about the game... well... you just lost the game. Much like I just did. *sigh*

 

[Assia Penryn]

All I'm saying is "Hey, use your terms correctly, and create interesting, deep stories that don't make the people involved go, 'Oh no. Not again.'" I'll be honest, I'm tired of feeling like a bowl of petunias*.

* 50 points to whomever identifies the reference.

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy *smiles*

 

[RaDian FlGith]

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy *smiles*

Woot!

50 points have been deposited into your account!!!

For some reason, after the whale went splat after all his naming, the bowl of petunias was even funnier. This, of course, before I knew why the bowl of petunias even thought that. hehe