Life in T2A

[Caelas]

I started playing UO a few years ago, and have had to take some breaks from it along the way. My account itself is only 1.5 years old.

So, I see all this talk of a classic shard, and the poll seems to indicate people leaning towards wanting The Second Age to be the classic shard if it happens.

What was it like back then? Looking for all sorts of info...lands, creatures, items, stats, skills...you name it. I'm curious.

 

[Evlar]

First of all, anyone in favour of classic shards, like myself, is likely to be biased

But having got that out of the way, the main things I remember...

· Less reliance on items and more reliance on skill.
· Being GM actually seemed to mean something then. No "legendary" skills, you were capped at 100.
· Some skills in themselves, actually meant something then. Some of which are now "obsolete".
· The economy seemed more balanced.
· Player interaction was more essential.
· To me, the game world was entirely more challenging.
· Crafting was simpler. GM crafted items were more important to other players and easy to obtain.

Those are just a few things that are lodged in my mind.

You're bound to get people post that player-killing was rampant, that it spoiled the game, etc... For myself, even though PvP only accounted for a very small portion of my game time, it wasn't as much of a problem as some people make it out. Granted, everyone's experience was different, some shards suffered more than others.

On the whole though, for me, encountering a player-killer whilst out mining or exploring was some part of the challenge. That aspect of the challenge is something that can't be replaced by static spawns or limited AI creatures in the game.

Ultimately it's the variety of interactions with other players, good or bad, that I miss the most.

Have a read through the Classic shard thread. There's some very interesting discussion, good, bad... and ugly!

It will give you some idea of the era. What people liked, what they didn't like, what they would have preferred, what their memories were. Most importantly perhaps, why they prefer the classic era, to the current era, mostly in respect of the all important game play preferences.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Oh, man, the best thing you can do is read through the posts about all this. There's just too much.

It was a different game, in many ways.

Socially: people needed eachother more, to defend against PKers and thieves.
The items situation was much simpler. Because of this, there were many more merchants. Because of this, the entire game thrived. There were trade fairs, merchants at banks hawking their wares, deals made for mass quantities of product (this was player done, no code for it, and was much more involving this way). You could go to a city forge and find smiths working there and hire them to repair your stuff. You talked to people you didn't know, made new friends, got to know who they were in an in-game sense.

PvP: Timing and strategy were much, much more important. Especially after most players got to GM skills and were more or less equal.

You saw a lot of "individuals". Certain players were instantly recognizable by what they always wore. Not that no one else wore exactly what they wore, but that most others didn't. Uniqueness enough to be recognizable.

It was just a different world. As I said, too much to explain.

But it was ALIVE!

 

[Llewen]

The biggest differences in my opinion were that there was a smaller land mass with a higher population density, and the game was simpler. It was also a full loot, wide open pvp environment, with stealing. It was a very different game from the one we know now in that respect.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

Evlar and Trebr are doing a great job explaining it. Honestly it is hard to describe. We could tell you the features etc... but I doubt that it could convey the passion we feel when we talk about these things. I think it all boils down to community. We were all part of a community on our servers. If you were a well known blacksmith you'd find people coming from all over Britannia to get their weapons and armor fixed by you. This was during a time when travel wasn't super easy. If you used the moongates you had to wait for the proper alignment of the moons to get to the city you were trying to get to. It was still early enough in the game that there weren't many 7th circle mages so having a rune to all the different cities was kind of a luxury.

If you were a well known PK, well people would avoid you. Almost the opposite if you were a known Anti-PK. You could tell by guild tags who would be the first person to run to the action whenever someone came by WBB and yelled that PK's were at the graveyard, or cove orc fort etc.

There were even politicians in the game. People would run for the office of Mayor of Yew. If you found a good store you'd be sure to tell your friends who would buy from that store.

All in all I feel that it was more than a game for many of us. We formed our own virtual villages, for lack of a better term. I've never felt that deeply involved in a game as I did back then. It's a measure of how greatly influential this game has been on people that 13 years after it's release, I can still remember how happy I was when I finally placed my first house, the rush of my first even fight with a PK, and the desire to see old friends that drifted away after the changes made to the game.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Looking for all sorts of info...lands, creatures, items, stats, skills...you name it. I'm curious.

Lands:

You basically only had the original landmass Brittania, and the Lost Lands. The towns in those lands were occupied by players. It was not uncommon to come across two or three dozen people at any given time at all of the major banks like Trinsic, Ocollo, Moonglow, and Maginicia...the Lost Land banks, at that time, were very full as well. But the main place to gather was West Britain Bank. You would see hundreds of people in West Brit at peak hours.

Creatures:

The big thing in T2A was the Terathan Keep. The Ophedian and Terathan war drew a lot of players to that area. Of course, you had new creatures that had just been added, like Cyclopses and Titans, but the original creatures like Dragons, Demons, Ogre Lords, and Lich Lords were still popular. Ice Fiends were new, as were a host of new ice-based creatures in the Ice Dungeon. There were no peerless creatures or paragons yet.

Items:

Pretty much your basic items existed. Leather, studded leather, bone armor, ringmail, chainmail, and plate armor was pretty much it. Colored ores were released during this era, so you started to see people wearing Valorite and such...but these offered no bonus in the way of protection...just looks. Weapons were much less varied as well. You had a variety of swords, but everyone pretty much used Katanas. The Supremely Accurate Indestructible Silver Katana of Vanquishing was the holy grail of weapons during that period...but even that was not a giant leap over a GM crafted Katana. The early part of the era saw the transition away from 'tank mages' (mages wearing full plate and carrying halbards).

Skills:

In the original release of the game, skills were much less tied to one another. You got some small bonuses for having this with that, but much less so than what you see now. The T2A period was the beginning of more 'template based' characters, and less 'jack of all trade' characters. Archery, for example, started to need tactics and anatomy to be really effective. We didn't have Chivalry or Bushido or any of those sorts of skills. Besides crafters, people generally either played mages, warriors, bards, or tamers. Bards and tamers were really powerful in PvM back then. A bard could solo almost anything in the game...as long as there were at least 2 of them!

Generally speaking, the world was much more community based. It was really difficult to do much solo, even if you were a bard...because bards were not that great for PvP (although I killed several reds with my bard back then). You generally needed to group up with others, or join a guild...mostly because of PKs.

PKs, despite what some people will tell you, were prolific on most shards. It was a common tactic for them to gank players that were alone or in a pair. So it made lots of sense to travel in groups. I think more than anything, that is the reason why some people never saw a 'problem' with PKs...because they pretty much played in groups or guilds the entire time. But having PKs around was not all bad. It added a challenge to the game that cannot be replicated with NPCs...and it forced us all to meet other players, and come together...as a community. You don't have a lot of that anymore.

I could go on for hours about the old days...but I will spare everyone the story telling

 

[temu]

Are we allowed to talk about player run shards on stratics? Logging on to the right ones is a good way to get a feel for how the game was in 98 - 99 or so.

 

[Beer_Cayse]

pretty much what's been said and ...

Skill and stat locks were not present, so you needed to really be mindful of what you exercised because if you were capped (700 - that's all!) something ALWAYS went down.

Custom housing was a dream in someones subconscious at the time ... so none of that.

No PS of any kind; Total stats = 225, nothing modified by equipment, no one stat over 100. Skills hard capped at 700 with 100 being highest possible in a skill.

Effective skills in Arms Lore, Item Identification, Resisting Spells. Yeah, Resist actually resisted spells! Imagine that! Training in fire fields was the way to go.

Armor was AR - Armor Rating (no juggling resists) and the higher it was, the better protection offered. Types of armor counted: Plate > Chain > Ring/Studded > Leather > nekkid. Armor combos existed and DEX was penalized for most stuff you wore.

If you wanted to know how worn an item was - Arms Lore; want to know what special abilities it had - Item ID. Item worn? Go get it repaired by a player smith ... no repair deeds. Item ID told you durability and added damage (Might, Power, Vanquishing, etc)

Spawn overland was more than current day ... any given spawn area of some foe was likely to have several groups of it at once.

No Bushido, Necromancy, Chivalry, Ninjitsu or other skills. Camping was actually useful as well ... kindling and a bedroll and there was a safe place to log in the wilderness.

Herders were pretty common - at least on Pac - when I started. Tankmages were the shiznit and if you were GM Smithing you had demand for all your wares. Same with Tailor to an extent.

No house security on doors ... you needed to carry a key and perhaps keyring. Double-click that and target door to open it. Best use Detect Hidden first, though for thieves could dash thru the open door while stealthed.

You were required to use masking techniques to prevent keys from being stolen, see. Thieves would love to see what you had, steal the key and loot the house dry. No real container security at all once you were inside.

You could be friended and co-owner on friends housing without jeopardy to your house.

More than 1 house allowed per account if you could afford it.

Starting gold - 100gp plus perhaps a newbie weapon or regs.


Those are some things *I* recall ... probably mentioned by others as well. I didn't PvP so I'll leave that to others.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

This:

 

[Luke Carjacker]

Seems like to this point, everyone in this thread had positive memories of the "old days". I'm not here to bash because I definitely remember a lot of the positives, but I'll also point out some of the negatives.

Biggest difference is that there were a lot more people around then. Now, some shards are still pretty busy today, but even the busier shards are nothing like they were at that time. This is both good and bad. I do have positive memories of having dozens of people to talk with around Brit Bank, of getting armor repaired at the forge, and a lot of other things that were really great. But I also remember huge arguments & fights over petty things because there were so few options & places to hunt and adventure. Having high population density definitely has its pluses and minuses; some people love to live in Manhattan, other people would rather die before living there.

Whoever said people dressed uniquely...are you on drugs Actually, I'm not here to bash anyone else's memories, but what I recall was that everyone ran around dressing & looking exactly the same (or at least aspired to look the same). Guys ran around in kilts & blessed black sandals (can't say I miss that) or in suits of basic armor types; and girls all had long hair dyed white. Of course, there were a lot fewer options available. Basically you had a normal dye tub and maybe a black dye tub. You didn't have different colored cloth, clothing from the various expansions, a big variety of mounts, etc. Again, just what I remember. These days, there's definitely a lot more variety available, although I'm definitely on the bandwagon that something needs to be done so everyone doesn't have to walk around in floor length robes.

There were far fewer viable templates to play. These days, one of my favorite things is to figure out if some skills can work together to create a more effective (or more fun) template to play. Sure, PvP may be dominated by a few specific templates, but that's always going to be the case as people try to squeeze out an edge. But if hard-core PvP isn't your top priority, you've got a lot more options these days; and the opportunity to go to 120 in a skill, or stop at 100, or even 80 lends flexibility. Used to be, every warrior carried a katana or Kryss; there simply weren't very many options.

Now, I will agree that standardized templates & gear made PvP "back in the day" more of a skill based affair with one HUGE caveat. It was skill based if people had equal connections. These days, gear can be a big imbalance, but during the entire period of time leading up to AoS, a lot of people (I will speculate that a majority of people) were on dial-up. Combine that with much higher population density (anyone at the pac rares festival knows that big crowds still spell lag, even today with great connections) and you can picture what happened.

A lot of people, like myself, went around on foot because lag gave no benefit for being on horseback. Now picture what PvP was like for me with someone zooming around on cable internet on a horse. Yeah. So, I really don't agree that PvP was skill based to a larger degree back then. Sure, if you fought someone who had an equal connection, it was likely neither side would have a gear advantage; but there was an inherent advantage that could not be overcome in many if not most PvP battles - the side on dial-up had zero chance of winning.

So, I'll just say I do have very fond memories of my early days in UO. Mostly, I remember the great friends I had in the game. I remember the sense of wonder when I would go around discovering the world and see so many people doing their thing everywhere. But I also remember squabbles related to overcrowding and much more limited opportunities for things to do. I think PvP would benefit from a return to "classic" rules & gear; but every other aspect of the game I can think of would suffer. For someone like myself, who enjoys PvP, but also champ spawns, the ML lands, the opportunity to build around new gear, and all the new stuff in SA, I think it would really be a step back. In my opinion, a classic shard & ruleset addresses one specific set of needs without really thinking of how all the various people enjoy the game.

 

[G.v.P]

This:

lol that's a funny cap

oh man I remember the bone knight room everyone used to train there that was nuts

there's no place like that anymore ... people just use golems. for a short while people used rotting corpses until EA fixed the ankh at (wait a min, not compassion... sacrifice? I forget... ah, humility!!! haha), that was fun, GM'd LJ there.

 

[Caelas]

This:

T2A was all about two guys Kal Ort Poring and one guy casting Corp Por?

 

[Llewen]

T2A was all about two guys Kal Ort Poring and one guy casting Corp Por?

Pretty much...

(And before anyone gets their knickers in a knot... j/k )

 

[Evlar]

T2A was all about two guys Kal Ort Poring and one guy casting Corp Por?

It's two players getting raided by PK's.

It's been mentioned somewhere, that some players would (and still do) run like hell, or recall away, first sight of a red.

Me? I'd have talked to them. Even if the end result was OooOOOoOo

 

[Apex Xion]

Imagine relying on someone to craft armor for you. Imagine having to find a vendor with GM weapons so you could get the best durability for your $. Imagine "power hour" meaning you get 1 hour a day (usually 24 hours past the last one) where your skill-up chances are increased for 60 minutes a day.

Imagine having to decide what to carry with you when venturing out due to the possibility of losing said items if you die.

I could go on and on, but these are just a few of the things that I truly loved about UO. Ultima Online has gotten so far away from what it was, it's probably very hard for people that haven't played pre-pub 16 to comprehend the changes.

I haven't played UO in years, but you bet your bottom dollar, I will be back in an instant for a "classic" shard... my leet level 80's on WoW be damned

 

[G.v.P]

What was it like back then? Looking for all sorts of info...lands, creatures, items, stats, skills...you name it. I'm curious.

Honestly, all these yahoos who think a classic shard would be great forget about all the things they complain about right now, for example, tamers. Back in T2A, you could tame an INFINITE amount of pets. You were basically limited by stable space per NPC, and you couldn't bond pets, but there was nothing to stop one person from taming 20 dragons or 20 nightmares and then completely owning everyone lol. Fun times, but people would complain about that to no end I bet.

In fact, people ended up just griefing. I remember one time someone tamed over 20 hinds and brought them to Moonglow to crash the shard. Back then, a lot of people were at West Brit Bank and Moonglow Bank.

Also, on the vein of stables, they were first come first serve back then, so it might take you awhile to find a stable for your pets, or you might even forget where you stabled your pet lol. And I'd have to imagine it's pretty annoying to play without bonded pets after having them for so long. Would be nice to kill miners again though lol.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

T2A was all about two guys Kal Ort Poring and one guy casting Corp Por?

For some people, that actually is what the those days were all about. They would see another player and instantly recall away...especially if that player was a red.

But let's dissect that picture for a moment. You have two seemingly well equipped players, both wearing metal armor, and they are recalling away. One of the attackers is also wearing metal armor...so this photo might actually be from early in the T2A era. Changes came during that period that made it very undesirable to play a caster and wear metal armor.

Also, the fencer there is carrying a kryss...and no shield. Why? So he could chug pots! And because he probably didn't need it. Parry was not nearly as effective back then as it is now...especially because most people that PK'ed were mages.

What else is going on in that pic? No one in it is wearing anything neon. Also, no one has a quiver on their backs. None of them are archers...so why would they wear quivers?? Oh, that's right...because now, EVERYBODY wears a quiver! Also...quivers didn't exist yet in UO.

Another interesting thing that we can learn from that pic...no one is wearing the exact same things. We didn't have artifacts, so no one felt the need to wear the item du jour. Whereas now, everyone in the pic might have the exact same helm or shield (even if they don't have parry rolleyes: )

So you see, there is more than immediately meets the eye here. You just have to know what to look for.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Honestly, all these yahoos who think a classic shard would be great forget about all the things they complain about right now, for example, tamers. Back in T2A, you could tame an INFINITE amount of pets. You were basically limited by stable space per NPC, and you couldn't bond pets, but there was nothing to stop one person from taming 20 dragons or 20 nightmares and then completely owning everyone lol. Fun times, but people would complain about that to no end I bet.

No way man! Those were the days! Mages could have multiple summons, tamers could actually go out and tame pets, then sell them to non-tamers, and if you were a tamer, you could actually tame and control a pack of pets that were powerful!

Some people might complain, but for every one of them, there are probably 3 of us that would prefer it that way.

 

[Beer_Cayse]

I loved it that way and I was not a tamer! One went and got me my first horse in UO for absolutely nothing! Just 'cause they could!

Then again, Thursday nights at the Brit Forge was SRO for repairs and gear.

I had some guy drop 1K gp on me just because my Tinker made him a few shovels out in the field as we were mining! Thems was big bucks then I tell ya.

More and more neat things return when I read this thread ... I did have fun altho I also exercised dirtnapping a lot. <shrug>

 

[Luke Carjacker]

Some people might complain, but for every one of them, there are probably 3 of us that would prefer it that way.

This quote I totally disagree with. People asking for a classic share are an extremely vocal but extremely small minority. Now, I would agree that there are a lot of people who miss certain aspects of the good ole' days, but to suggest that 3 out of 4 people would prefer a classic shard is ludicrous.

EA may not get everything right, but they aren't stupid. If there was any hint that a majority of the people preferred something, they would surely devote resources to it because they're into making money. The fact that not one of the 20+ current shards has a classic ruleset (and yes, different shards can have different rulesets if called for - see Seige/Mugen) is a clear indication that they don't believe the demand is there, regardless of how vocal the minority is.

Trust me, if there was any hint or possibility that a classic shard, or shard dedicated to in-game chess or anything for that matter, was in high demand or would attract new or returning members, you can bet they would be pursuing (depending on cost of course).

 

[hawkeye_pike]

This:

T2A was all about two guys Kal Ort Poring and one guy casting Corp Por?

This picture is from 1998. The background story can be read here:
Trouble in Deceit.

What I like about the picture is its ambivalence. On the one hand you could never go into a dungeon without being ganked and looted dry by a group of mass murderers and blue looters. On the other hand, there always was this tingling feeling of risk creeping up your spine whenever you entered a dungeon.

I see this thread already turning into a Classic Shard thread again. If you choose to do that, don't forget that not all was good in the Old Days. In fact, the game suffered from a lot of problems back then, which caused masses of players to cancel their subscription.
Repeating the old mistakes wouldn't bring back the memories we have and which today are romanticized by our nostalgy.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

This quote I totally disagree with. People asking for a classic share are an extremely vocal but extremely small minority.

Oh? Extremely small you say?

That would imply that you have exact numbers.

So, how many people, exactly, are there that want a Classic Shard (as opposed to whatever a "Classic Share" is)?

How many people, exactly, are there that do not want a Classic Shard?

Don't worry...you don't have to answer...because everyone with a brain understands that there is no way that you, or anyone else on Earth, could possibly have that information.

Rather than throw out a bunch of supposition, why not just say 'I don't want a Classic Shard' and be done with it?

You are welcome to your opinions on the matter...but just understand, without hard, factual, numbers...they remain exactly that...your opinions.

Thank you.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I see this thread already turning into a Classic Shard thread again.

How can a question about the Classic Era not turn into a Classic Shard thread? Should those of us that have a differing opinion than you just not post in any thread other than that one thread, even if the question is obviously related to the discussion??

Why drop into a thread like this if the topic offends you so much?

When you see a question about T2A, Classic Shards, etc...why bother responding if you know in advance you are going to be bothered by the posts in the thread?

If this were a thread about some new item that is dropping in some new area, odds are high you would not hear a peep out of Classic UO fans. But a thread like this??

To expect not to hear at least one person mention a Classic Shard is just not realistic.

 

[G.v.P]

No way man! Those were the days! Mages could have multiple summons, tamers could actually go out and tame pets, then sell them to non-tamers, and if you were a tamer, you could actually tame and control a pack of pets that were powerful!

Some people might complain, but for every one of them, there are probably 3 of us that would prefer it that way.

Well, we could always just open up a gate and all the pets would march dutifully through it so I guess there was balance there still

(back in the day pets would go through any gate on their own if they walked through it so a PvP tactic was to have an aggro pet(s) walk through a gate then dispel the gate so the tamer couldn't get the pet(s) back)

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Why drop into a thread like this if the topic offends you so much?

When you see a question about T2A, Classic Shards, etc...why bother responding if you know in advance you are going to be bothered by the posts in the thread?

There's really no need to attack every critical comment with wrong allegations and assumptions. rolleyes:

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Well, we could always just open up a gate and all the pets would march dutifully through it so I guess there was balance there still

(back in the day pets would go through any gate on their own if they walked through it so a PvP tactic was to have an aggro pet(s) walk through a gate then dispel the gate so the tamer couldn't get the pet(s) back)

Yep! And if you go back a little further, you could do that with any creature in the game, not just pets. We used to gate monsters to private areas to fight them in relative security...or even to use them AS security for our houses.

I actually didn't mind the changes to taming though. It makes it so that when I lose a fight, I can just log out and log in again, and my Greater Dragon is right there next to me...and, if I go across a server boundary to do it, the GD appears with full health sometimes! Actually, I see a lot more complaints surrounding those sorts of things than I do about tamers having too many pets, or mages having too many summons.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

There's really no need to attack every critical comment with wrong allegations and assumptions. rolleyes:

I am not attacking you. I am asking you a question. It is obvious that you and I are of a different opinion on the subject of a Classic Shard...I have no issue with that, but when you drop into a thread that is dealing specifically with the subject of Classic UO, and see people discussing...Classic UO...I just wonder how this comes as a great surprise to you?

(great pic btw!)

 

[Mazulat]

Those days were awesome. As a tank mule I could go mining and when that lone pk ran to get his easy target, the mace would destroy his armour. Then when he came back to brit later, I would sell them replacements for the stuff I had broken or looted.

Ooo and the random concussion blow dealt by macers. Slow as tar compared to the kats and kryss but so darned brutal if timed correctly. That plus the stamina damage a macer could cause more than made up for the swing speed. And the ever common light or heavy archers sets chain tunic, chain or plate legs, ring or plate arms, plate gorget, plate gloves, and coif or helm. Your armour set was based on dex penalty rather than the max AR. And differant ore colors were for durability advantages and to look cool.

If they actually build a classic shard some day not only would i come back to UO, I'd resurrect Maz the Hammer... my first tank mule from those old days on Great Lakes. The time of LBR was interesting and alot of fun but the pretram days made for such a closer community. Actually needing someone to repair your armour was intense. You always had to wonder if they were going to get your stuff and simply bail on you, so you made the trip to brit to find the guys who had a reputation to uphold.

As a side note... to show I wasn't some type of white knight mule goodie goodie .... who remembers stacking cloth to burglarize large towers? or when the first set of companions went bad and used their abilities to recall to a new player they were linked to in order to break into houses? ( I never did that as a companion but it did happen and was part of why the program was killed aside from the lawsuit)

 

[Luke Carjacker]

Oh? Extremely small you say?

That would imply that you have exact numbers.

So, how many people, exactly, are there that want a Classic Shard (as opposed to whatever a "Classic Share" is)?

How many people, exactly, are there that do not want a Classic Shard?

Don't worry...you don't have to answer...because everyone with a brain understands that there is no way that you, or anyone else on Earth, could possibly have that information.

Rather than throw out a bunch of supposition, why not just say 'I don't want a Classic Shard' and be done with it?

You are welcome to your opinions on the matter...but just understand, without hard, factual, numbers...they remain exactly that...your opinions.

Thank you.

I don't need a gallup poll or official attendance numbers to be able to draw a conclusion. Everyone does it all the time every single day. If I walk into a restaurant 10 different times during prime eating hours and see that it's 90% empty except for a handful full of the same people, I can draw a conclusion from these observations; even if I only spent an hour there each time and I don't know the final tally on the register at the end of the day. If I see 10 "classic shard" threads and the same people post dozens of times to each thread, I can draw a conclusion based on these observations.

These are observations based on facts. The fact that you feel like you need to attack me reinforces the fact that the observations hold water. The truth hurts. If my conclusions were completely off, there would be no need to attack me; people would just laugh at the comedy.

Let's break down some observations here then. There are hundreds of names that I see on these boards talking about different topics; and a handful of people are responsible for the vast majority of the posts regarding a classic shard. That's what I call a vocal minority. Of the hundreds of different topics being discussed by hundreds of people - from custom housing to factions to rares trading to PvP to shard intrigue & romance - the same dozen or so people are the ones always pushing the idea of a classic shard. Take away that very small minority of people (by my estimation a dozen out of the hundreds that use stratics) along with their hundreds or maybe thousands of posts on the subject and the topic would be dead.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

You know, you are right. My first instinct was to ignore your post...but I thought that perhaps you had something beside the same old tired arguments that others trod out here to back up anything you are saying. Turns out, you don't.

 

[Evlar]

Luke Carjacker - You might be interested, given the classic shard "headline" in a recent Stratics email some have received, that in the classic shard thread, a number of "new" posters have arrived and made their comments.

One thing that I think I can safely state with some accuracy, is that there's a lot more former players than current players of UO.

Mindful of that, I would suspect that the larger proportion of those former players, who played in the higher subscription years, don't actually know that the subject of a classic shard is up for discussion, as a potentially realistic possibility.

Judging by some of the "surprise" feedback in the thread from people having seen the Stratics headline, read comments on other forums, word of mouth, talking in other games, or other means, it shows there are a considerable number of people who still reminisce about "classic" UO and what it meant to them as a game.

Looking not only here recently, but on other websites and MMO forums, there seems to be considerable interest, if only from former players, who didn't like the Tram/Fel split, AoS, or other aspects of the game that arrived after the "classic" era. What you see here in all fairness, is only a small proportion of that interest at this moment in time. Don't forget, it's only a relatively short space of time since the lead developer mentioned that it was something which had/has been discussed, even to the extent of preparing a business plan to EA.

That information is gradually spreading, therefore I believe interest will only grow, not deminish. Unless of course, EA/Mythic were to make a clear and ultimate statement to say that it is definately not going to happen.

So a vocal minority here on Stratics it may be in your opinion, but if you look beyond this forum, you'll actually see much much more regarding people's thoughts and opinions about a "classic" option for UO. It's only recently that such talk has even been allowed on Stratics, so it's not something that's just cropped up. Look on a couple of general MMO forums and there's "classic" UO discussion threads dating back to when AoS came, which are still active to this day. If that doesn't give some indication of the desire, I don't know what does.

So, I might suggest looking outside the Stratics box when it comes to the "vocal minority". I think you'll find there's more people out there in internet-land who like the idea than you think.

 

[Longest Journey]

This picture is from 1998. The background story can be read here:
Trouble in Deceit.

What I like about the picture is its ambivalence. On the one hand you could never go into a dungeon without being ganked and looted dry by a group of mass murderers and blue looters. On the other hand, there always was this tingling feeling of risk creeping up your spine whenever you entered a dungeon.

Woah, wait.....what? Players could never go into a dungeon without getting ganked? Oh, that is such BS, even the bull cant believe that came out of his butt.

People went into dungeons ALL the time, and only occasionally did they get ganked by PKs. Even then, most PKs ran solo. There were the few groups who were organized, but more often than not, it was one guy running alone.

Mass murderers? Can we say exaggeration?

I see this thread already turning into a Classic Shard thread again. If you choose to do that, don't forget that not all was good in the Old Days. In fact, the game suffered from a lot of problems back then, which caused masses of players to cancel their subscription.

Masses of players quitting.......hmmm, nope dont remember that. I do however remembering servers like Cats, Atlantic and Chessy all being packed with players from server up to server down. I remember west brit bank being so loaded with people that the lag was unbelieveable across all three of those servers. I remember every town had its local hangers and guilds who frequented them. Even Cove had its loyal dwellers.

Now, how could any of that been possible if masses of players were quitting? I mean, if it was masses of players, how come the game didnt get shut down due to lack of funding? The game did DEPEND on player subs to keep going.... so if so many people were leaving, how come the game didnt just shut down?

Ah, thats right....because masses of players werent quitting. No, it was just a few whiners and immature players who couldnt handle PvP that kept constantly bothering the devs and GMs on the forums and in the IRC.

Repeating the old mistakes wouldn't bring back the memories we have and which today are romanticized by our nostalgy.

No nostalgia here. People have played trammel, AOS, SE, ML, SA, and what has it gotten UO? Subscription numbers in the toilet, ghost town servers, and the game hanging on by a thread.

The want for classic servers doesnt come from Nostalgia, it comes from the FACT, F*A*C*T, that people have played everything thats out there, all of the other MMOs. They have played UO as it is now.

And guess what.....those people have come to a very long thought out conclusion that is backed by experience, not nostalgia.....

And that conclusion is this............




................
.............
........................

.........*whisper*people like the old UO better and want it back*whisper*

 

[Apex Xion]

I don't need a gallup poll or official attendance numbers to be able to draw a conclusion. Everyone does it all the time every single day. If I walk into a restaurant 10 different times during prime eating hours and see that it's 90% empty except for a handful full of the same people, I can draw a conclusion from these observations; even if I only spent an hour there each time and I don't know the final tally on the register at the end of the day. If I see 10 "classic shard" threads and the same people post dozens of times to each thread, I can draw a conclusion based on these observations.

These are observations based on facts. The fact that you feel like you need to attack me reinforces the fact that the observations hold water. The truth hurts. If my conclusions were completely off, there would be no need to attack me; people would just laugh at the comedy.

Let's break down some observations here then. There are hundreds of names that I see on these boards talking about different topics; and a handful of people are responsible for the vast majority of the posts regarding a classic shard. That's what I call a vocal minority. Of the hundreds of different topics being discussed by hundreds of people - from custom housing to factions to rares trading to PvP to shard intrigue & romance - the same dozen or so people are the ones always pushing the idea of a classic shard. Take away that very small minority of people (by my estimation a dozen out of the hundreds that use stratics) along with their hundreds or maybe thousands of posts on the subject and the topic would be dead.

You can surmise all you want, but what you don't see, are the hundreds, if not thousands of people on UO's (as well as Stratics) mailing list that once made aware of a possible classic shard, may come flooding back. Believe me when I say this, my friend... I had no idea nor any intention of ever coming back here to peruse these forums... until I read the stratics newsletter mentioning this exact discussion!

I don't think that weighing in on the population's interest in something by the number of pro-classic posters in discussion posts is anything other than opinion and small scale observation. I would be willing to bet there are thousands more out there just like me that if made aware of this news would be on the bandwagon as well.

Just my 2 cents

 

[NightRider]

Everyone seems to long for the "good old days." Truth is, they're not as good as our memories like to suggest. People killing was rampant. Killers occupied houses on the roads just outside the guard zones. They lay in wait in areas that attracted players. They raided in numbers. Dungeons were too dangerous. If you were raided in a confined area, there was no escape. The Lost Lands helped some, at least you had a chance to run.

My lumberjack chopped while hidden, hoping the sound wouldn't attract pk'ers. While hunting in the woods, I slipped from tree to tree, believing the foliage would help mask my movements. I would use my hiding skill underneath the canopy of leaves, and pause patiently before continuing on.

Loot was hard to get because the best hunting places were patrolled. Obtaining 100k took time and effort and by then, it was necessary to upgrade your equipment at a cost of around 40k or so. Then it was rinse and repeat. Of course, you lost all equipment when you were murdered.

The people killers harvested us and the dungeons, while we were denied the best hunting grounds. The truth is, folks were very relieved when Trammel came along. Is was like we were set free to pursue our own interests, and not be fodder for the oppressors.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Dungeons were too dangerous.

......

The truth is, folks were very relieved when Trammel came along.

See, this is exactly why I call Trammel 'UO Easy Mode'.

 

[phantus]

*whisper* some people like the old UO better and want it back*whisper*

Fixed it for ya.

*points*

You have a little froth there you might want to wipe off.

 

[Lord Chaos]

T2A was all about stepping 5 steps outside of Delucia and then get Para-ganked by groups of PKs..over and over and over again.

 

[Lord Chaos]

See, this is exactly why I call Trammel 'UO Easy Mode'.

Or simply "getting out of UO ****ty Mode".

Have enough crap to take care of in RL, don't need hardship from my games too, they're supposed to be fun.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Woah, wait.....what? Players could never go into a dungeon without getting ganked? Oh, that is such BS, even the bull cant believe that came out of his butt.

People went into dungeons ALL the time, and only occasionally did they get ganked by PKs. Even then, most PKs ran solo. There were the few groups who were organized, but more often than not, it was one guy running alone.

LOL, it wasn't until Trammel came out I even got a chance to really experience the dungeons, pre-Trammel, when one finally got enough of a decent suit together to survive far down into a dungeon, PKs would sweep the place (and yes, often in groups, but single PKs were just as deadly) and kill you flat out, without even the slightest chance...and then you were back to square one, having to find loot and gear enough to try again.

Mass murderers? Can we say exaggeration?

Not much of an exaggeration, many PKs sweeped the dungeons, killing anyone they found.

Masses of players quitting.......hmmm, nope dont remember that. I do however remembering servers like Cats, Atlantic and Chessy all being packed with players from server up to server down. I remember west brit bank being so loaded with people that the lag was unbelieveable across all three of those servers. I remember every town had its local hangers and guilds who frequented them. Even Cove had its loyal dwellers.

Because there were only a small landmass and few cities, so people were packed.

Now, how could any of that been possible if masses of players were quitting? I mean, if it was masses of players, how come the game didnt get shut down due to lack of funding? The game did DEPEND on player subs to keep going.... so if so many people were leaving, how come the game didnt just shut down?

It didn't shut down because the devs did the logical conclusion and fixed things.

Ah, thats right....because masses of players werent quitting. No, it was just a few whiners and immature players who couldnt handle PvP that kept constantly bothering the devs and GMs on the forums and in the IRC.

Oh the irony...seems more like its a few whiners who can't handle the new UO, so they are constantly bothering the devs on the forums and IRC about a classic server.

No nostalgia here. People have played trammel, AOS, SE, ML, SA, and what has it gotten UO? Subscription numbers in the toilet, ghost town servers, and the game hanging on by a thread.

The game is still running despite massive competition by far better games out there.

The want for classic servers doesnt come from Nostalgia, it comes from the FACT, F*A*C*T, that people have played everything thats out there, all of the other MMOs. They have played UO as it is now.

A small minority and out of that minority even less would actually pay for a classic server, they'd just use a free shard.

 

[Evlar]

T2A was all about stepping 5 steps outside of Delucia and then get Para-ganked by groups of PKs..over and over and over again.

See, this is exactly why I call Trammel 'UO Easy Mode'.

Or simply "getting out of UO ****ty Mode".

Have enough crap to take care of in RL, don't need hardship from my games too, they're supposed to be fun.

Personally, I don't recall many occasions when I was ganked leaving Delucia or Papua. I used to spend a lot of time around the T2A lands. If anything, the biggest hot-spot I would see, would be Khaldun. Suppose it all depends on what shards you played and the hours you played though I suppose. Perhaps for me playing an American server, whilst living in Europe, I wasn't always on at "peak" times.

As for "hardship", although I'm all for fun in games, I do like some challenge. Perhaps this is one of the biggest problems in the gaming industry today. Perhaps the vast majority of games players don't want to be challenged. They want a "fun" easy ride.

I've always found that games that are harder, more difficult to master, offer more challenge, have much more re-playability. Perhaps that's one reason why I not only support a "classic" shard proposal, but I enjoy revisiting certain classic computer games in general. Although graphics and UI's have improved exponentially over the years, I'm always left feeling unsatisfied when I play something like CODMW2 and complete it on a supposedly "difficult" level in a matter of hours.

I've increasingly felt the same thing with each expansion of UO. It's novel for a little while, but once I've done everything that expansion has to offer, there's little challenge. The most fun I've had in UO, has greatly involved interaction, in many shapes and forms, with other players. Be it fighting, group hunts, trading, whatever. Each individual offers something different. That's something no developer can add to a game, only us, the players.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Personally, I don't recall many occasions when I was ganked leaving Delucia or Papua. I used to spend a lot of time around the T2A lands. If anything, the biggest hot-spot I would see, would be Khaldun. Suppose it all depends on what shards you played and the hours you played though I suppose. Perhaps for me playing an American server, whilst living in Europe, I wasn't always on at "peak" times.

Well, thats probably it. There were plenty of ganking on my server.

As for "hardship", although I'm all for fun in games, I do like some challenge. Perhaps this is one of the biggest problems in the gaming industry today. Perhaps the vast majority of games players don't want to be challenged. They want a "fun" easy ride.

I find plenty challenge in lots of games and in UO...In fact UO is far more challenging today than it was back in the old days. The only thing that added a "challenge" was l33t d00d gankers and that was not a fun challenge, just a few having fun at the expense of the many.

Probably a lot of classic shard supporters are the PKs themselves, wanting the old thrill of murdering rampages.

 

[Evlar]

Well, thats probably it. There were plenty of ganking on my server.

Seems players experiences did vary from server to server.

I find plenty challenge in lots of games and in UO...In fact UO is far more challenging today than it was back in the old days.

Agree to disagree there - I just think expansions and yet more items, has been done to death. Suit construction is a challenge I suppose, but I prefer to play without the "challenge" of using a calculator and simply get down to the nitty-gritty of playing

The only thing that added a "challenge" was l33t d00d gankers and that was not a fun challenge, just a few having fun at the expense of the many.

Those sort of players, it is widely agreed, did little for the game, or the "fun" of their victims. Unfortunately, it always seems like it's a minority of people, through their actions, cause problems for the many. I think there were alternatives to the Tram/Fel split that came about because of those problems, unfortunately they didn't get to see the light of day.

Probably a lot of classic shard supporters are the PKs themselves, wanting the old thrill of murdering rampages.

Clearly there will be those who want nothing more than to get their kicks from pointless PK'ing, can't argue otherwise. However, if you take a look in the classic discussion thread, the single biggest point of that discussion, is how to best combat it rearing its head in a "new" classic shard.

On the whole, it seems the majority of those contributing to the thread, accept that there was a problem and they don't want to see it return. Perhaps between us, we just might come up with the best solution, proving that Trammel might not have been the best implementation after all.

On a personal note, I only ever used a red character for role-play. Any player-killing I did, was totally with the consent of those I played with. Sort of a fox and hounds thing. I would kill a player I knew, who didn't mind, then a group would hunt me down and bring me to "justice". The fun was in the chase and evading those chasing me.

Sadly, had more seen playing as a red PK as a type of character or role-play tool, rather than a way to exploit poor game mechanics or simply to annoy others, the game just might have evolved in an entirely different direction.

So in fairness, we're not all PK's after a free for all gankfest, no holds barred! Some of us enjoyed the role-play and deeper sense of interaction with other players, which we feel was stronger then. I for one, miss interacting with the passing trade at Brit Forge with my crafter. That's hardly PvP or PK orientated, is it?

(Unless you want to blame me for supplying the PK's with the weapons to kill with... )

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Or simply "getting out of UO ****ty Mode".

Have enough crap to take care of in RL, don't need hardship from my games too, they're supposed to be fun.

Well, its good for you that they gave you Trammel. Enjoy!

 

[Lord Chaos]

Well, its good for you that they gave you Trammel. Enjoy!

Oh I am I only go to Felucca because I have 4 houses there.

Either way, I do have fond memories of the old times, but its mostly nostalgia and rose colored memories most of the time, because in reality they were very frustrating, annoying, disheartening and often un-fun a lot of the time.

Nothing more unfun than finally finding a powerful weapon and then 5 minutes later you're ganked and drylooted. Of course the PK's were virtually invincible. Not only had they top notch armor and weapons (as they rarely lost theirs), they also had extensive PvP experience, typically great connections and used cheat programs.

Heck, remember gathering a very large group of people to make an attempt at stopping one of the groups, they wiped the floor with us and they didn't have a single loss.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Nothing more unfun than finally finding a powerful weapon and then 5 minutes later you're ganked and drylooted.

Not everyone was cut out for the Classic Era...that's why EA brought in Trammel. Again...ENJOY!

 

[Mazulat]

(Lord Chaos)
"Nothing more unfun than finally finding a powerful weapon and then 5 minutes later you're ganked and drylooted. Of course the PK's were virtually invincible. Not only had they top notch armor and weapons (as they rarely lost theirs), they also had extensive PvP experience, typically great connections and used cheat programs."


How exactly did they have top notch armour? The top of the line back then was "Invulnerable" and lets be realistic... it wasn't that much of an advantage over gm made. Not saying I'd drop a piece of it on the bank floor but equipment was not the same factor it is now. Pk's were powerful...because they trained at it. It is a skill set like any other. Mules learn to mine safely and how to gain efficiently, a nox thief trained thier timing, tamers worked at getting thier pets safely to and from battle....PK's trained to kill and loot other players. They are not gatherers, they are not crafters, and they don't really hunt pvm much....they prefer'd a more active and tougher target than anything origin could come up with to make a living off of. Seems like they were up against alot more than the other 80% of the population and still prospered. Practice, Practice, Practice.

Not liking a particular playstyle because they were better at something than you is a pretty lame excuse for crying about how no one wants a classic shard. I haven't played in quite a while but I stay lurking on the boards specifically to see if it ever happens. I'd be back in a second and I know 14 other people locally who are in exactly the same boat as me.

*puts on his flame retardant long johns* my .02 cents.... don't like it, don't read it.

 

[Archie]

This:

That's more like pre-t2a when mages wore platemail. Meditation came in shortly after t2a and pretty much ended the real tank mage.

 

[Archie]

Heck, remember gathering a very large group of people to make an attempt at stopping one of the groups, they wiped the floor with us and they didn't have a single loss.

What could be more challenging than that?

Not allowing aggressors to recall or gate would have taken care of some of the pk problems. Send in the sacrificial lambs to set the attackers' aggressor flag, and then gate in ever larger groups of people until finding enough to be competitive, lol. If nothing else, block them in until they run out of regs and then chop them up with daggers!

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Nothing more unfun than finally finding a powerful weapon and then 5 minutes later you're ganked and drylooted. Of course the PK's were virtually invincible.

I never found them to be "invincible" ... not at all.


Sounds like you just sucked at the game and that you are still pissed off about it.

 

[Archie]

I never found them to be "invincible" ... not at all.

Sounds like you just sucked at the game and that you are still pissed off about it.

That's always constructive.

Not everyone likes non-consensual PvP.

Didn't mind it myself, and I thought Trammel as a mirror was a mistake, but I can at least understand a company's decision to not allow a minority population to continually annoy the majority population. Strictly business.