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[UO Herald] Producer's Letter - April 2010

LordDrago

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Cal,

Thanks for the update. I like the comminications we have had recently from the Dev side. I know all of you have been busy with the current publish and everything, so communication during these times can get pretty tight. on that note, please don't let the Ask The Devs to fall by the wayside during this period. And keep up the good work!!!!
 
Z

Zodia

Guest
Cal, in your last letter a couple months ago you spoke of internal discussions about a Classic Shard. You said:

Next: is there ever going to be a classic shard? I will tell you … it’s a good idea … in theory. In practice it gets a LOT more complicated. We had a Saturday lunch recently (the same method we used when we were developing for Stygian Abyss), and discussed the benefits and costs (resource and impact to community) for developing a Classic shard. First we discussed what does a Classic Shard really mean? We came up with some core ideas and left it at that. There are several other things surrounding the implementation, and we almost have it nailed. Will we do it? I don’t know and cant’ say for certain, but at some point we will put the idea to rest one way or another, and we hope to make that decision this year.
Are there any updates about the Classic Shard? Has the decision been made or are you still in the pondering phase? When can we expect to know more? Given how hugely popular the idea of a Classic Shard has been on these boards over the past few months, has that influenced your decision?
Thanks
 

popps

Always Present
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Are there any updates about the Classic Shard?


If they ever make a classic shard it can only and solely be, IMHO, AFTER hacks, cheats, scripts have been dealt with in UO and made impossible.

Either a classic shard is done right from start, or it is not done for good....

I would hate to start playing a new shard only to realize it being plagued with the same old problems as ever...

That's how I see it.
 
C

Cal_Mythic

Guest
Cal, in your last letter a couple months ago you spoke of internal discussions about a Classic Shard. You said:



Are there any updates about the Classic Shard? Has the decision been made or are you still in the pondering phase? When can we expect to know more? Given how hugely popular the idea of a Classic Shard has been on these boards over the past few months, has that influenced your decision?
Thanks
Actually this is a loooooong standing discussion for UO since AoS as far as I know. I'm sure someone will be more than content to share with me if I'm wrong. :)

Yes we are still discussing it. I can't give you the laundry list of features, but there are actually battles between Bonnie and Derek and I twice a week on how to proceed. I can tell you however, that the priority is to fix what we've set out to do for these next few months ... and to support the plan of rebuilding Magincia ... AND solving the perception and actual impact of speedhackers in the game.

We've made the business case for it a few times, it honestly comes down to committing AND making sure we can support it. I know this doesn't answer the question completely, but please know it's all I can tell you at this time.
 
R

RavenWinterHawk

Guest
Oh brother.
People cheat because the can.
Remove cheating and they can't.

That doesn't mean they quit. Argh. They just can't cheat.

You don't play a game you don't like for the sole sake because you can cheat. You play because you like it.

People will still like the game and play.

PVP because you like it. Speed hack gone. PvP liked, so you still PvP.


Resources. NOW heres the kicker... You script because you make gold. You sell gold and make money.

They CASH makers aren't here to script, they are here to make money. YOU CANT SCRIPT. SO WHAT. They just figure out other ways to make RL money.


All this worry that fixing cheating and scripting will end the game is so silly.

Think about it.
 
O

Old Man of UO

Guest
Where the heck have you been old man ? Was starting to worry about you!
Computer motherboard crapped out, right in the middle of the Halloween event... no time to fix it so took it to a local shop. They wiped my hard drive, but they did say, "Sorry... it happens sometimes." Three weeks to recover my data manually.

Hitched a sleigh to my draft horse, and rode through the woods every weekend until the snow melted early this year. Neighbors loved the rides so much they bring Archie carrots every time they visit.

Learned Drupal for web creation (it's downright awesome... Stratics is set up with Drupal), set up four new websites with it... set up an inline e-store, and have about 600 out of 10,000 products in it so far. Put in a Mapstraction module for the Drupal work site, and tied all my communities to it so they appear on a Google map... I'm also trying to learn CSS and a touch of PHP to make the sites look better.

The ARRA government funding kicked in a big way. So far, three of us are covering the whole state, hired another part-timer, and we've got about $40,500,000 in funding for our communities this year. Just finished a 5-year budget for a water system getting a new loan, and I hate budgets.

OH... and I got back on UO about two weeks ago and went from 112 to 120 imbuing and made a nice set of jewels for my archer.

I've noticed that the population is waaaay down on LS... what happened?

Are you still fishing, Storm?
 
U

UOKaiser

Guest
Oh brother.
People cheat because the can.
Remove cheating and they can't.

That doesn't mean they quit. Argh. They just can't cheat.

You don't play a game you don't like for the sole sake because you can cheat. You play because you like it.

People will still like the game and play.

PVP because you like it. Speed hack gone. PvP liked, so you still PvP.


Resources. NOW heres the kicker... You script because you make gold. You sell gold and make money.

They CASH makers aren't here to script, they are here to make money. YOU CANT SCRIPT. SO WHAT. They just figure out other ways to make RL money.


All this worry that fixing cheating and scripting will end the game is so silly.

Think about it.
Going to have to disagree with you here. The sellers left a long long time ago. Think about it lets make believe you were a seller only in games to make money. Will you devote all your vast resources to dransik and Uo or will you point your resources to games with millions of players therefore millions of potentual clients. Sorry Raven they left us long ago. Whats left is just regular players no corporations, no multi marketing gold to cash sellers. Just hobbiest.

The next part i've played since the beggining, I've met 1000's of players and I can count on one hand how many of them never cheater one way or another to my knowledge. I can't count the forums as people here say one thing and do another. Those who are out spoken about it in game no one will tell them they violate anything. So there best buddies who they played with since the beggining,who helps them out with anything UO will be banned, then they themselves will be banned permanatly for cursing in game because of it.

Speedhacks. Cal said it right there perception of it. Can Cal serious tell me there server is being hacked? I've posted plenty of legal speedhacks in the tech forum,which would be pretty much any tweak you can make to your system and connection.
The only illegal one that I can imagine is one that is hacking there server and I haven't seen no one flying from minoc to tristen in less than 10 sec's yet at least not since the early days of UO. Anybody serious think these programs out there actually works better than any tweak you can do to your system themselves. Those programs are for the non-technical players. User mode if you want. Same with macro-script programs. Complicated scripts can be made without any use of the popular program.
Sure as hell if they present a challenge to hackers the hackers will make things that will destroy any sense of normality in UO.
The UO budget doesn't have room to even advertise the game let alone spend everyday combating them.

One way or another either people will leave because they can't use there user programs or people will leave cause there competition all sudden has invulnerable mode,flying mode,instant gold mode,test center mode,etc..
Even if they are out there for just 1 day at a time thats long enough to destroy the whole Uo market which in turn will push the pvm,rp,rare colectors,merchants, felluccia scroll players but mostly all trammel players away
leaving the game as empty as a fresh spawn gypsy iron vender merchant.

Even if this doesn't come to pass there will be people that know as much as I do that will make there own way around it being undetectable and will have full control of UO seeing as the other users will be stuck where there at so competition will be gone for them. They will control everything. Eventualy this will anger the rest and once again not enough subscriptions to keep anything a float.

Uo simply does not have the budget and there is not 1000's or even 100's let alone 10's of players joining everyday to fund it. They used to ban all violaters on sight. They realize they kept losing alot of merbership per every ban and there is no replacement for them so they stop and only do it for the most serious offenses.The last show of bans caught mostly the wrong people and let the truly criminal stay in.

They cut forum,they cut advertising,They cut hard copies,They cut dev, they will eventually cut the EMs again. They start projects but run out of funds to finish it before the next group of dev take over(Ishnear)(Malas)(3d)(KR)etc.. Now we have SA and the Client which was release before it ever was finished.

There resources are fading but all in all they still chug along got to give them that. So as much as I hope they make the game more enjoyable though am still paying for it which means am still enjoying it. I am realistic with the consequences of actions they might take and not hidden in a 1million subscriber WOW fog.

Man I have too much time in my hands better get back to work, Everybody stop distracting me lol...
 
U

UOKaiser

Guest
Computer motherboard crapped out, right in the middle of the Halloween event... no time to fix it so took it to a local shop. They wiped my hard drive, but they did say, "Sorry... it happens sometimes." Three weeks to recover my data manually.

Hitched a sleigh to my draft horse, and rode through the woods every weekend until the snow melted early this year. Neighbors loved the rides so much they bring Archie carrots every time they visit.

Learned Drupal for web creation (it's downright awesome... Stratics is set up with Drupal), set up four new websites with it... set up an inline e-store, and have about 600 out of 10,000 products in it so far. Put in a Mapstraction module for the Drupal work site, and tied all my communities to it so they appear on a Google map... I'm also trying to learn CSS and a touch of PHP to make the sites look better.

The ARRA government funding kicked in a big way. So far, three of us are covering the whole state, hired another part-timer, and we've got about $40,500,000 in funding for our communities this year. Just finished a 5-year budget for a water system getting a new loan, and I hate budgets.

OH... and I got back on UO about two weeks ago and went from 112 to 120 imbuing and made a nice set of jewels for my archer.

I've noticed that the population is waaaay down on LS... what happened?

Are you still fishing, Storm?
How the hell! No it doesn't happen!! If your motherboard is dead the only way they gonna mess up your hard drive is droping it.
 

Storm

UO Forum Moderator
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Awards
1
Computer motherboard crapped out, right in the middle of the Halloween event... no time to fix it so took it to a local shop. They wiped my hard drive, but they did say, "Sorry... it happens sometimes." Three weeks to recover my data manually.

Hitched a sleigh to my draft horse, and rode through the woods every weekend until the snow melted early this year. Neighbors loved the rides so much they bring Archie carrots every time they visit.

Learned Drupal for web creation (it's downright awesome... Stratics is set up with Drupal), set up four new websites with it... set up an inline e-store, and have about 600 out of 10,000 products in it so far. Put in a Mapstraction module for the Drupal work site, and tied all my communities to it so they appear on a Google map... I'm also trying to learn CSS and a touch of PHP to make the sites look better.

The ARRA government funding kicked in a big way. So far, three of us are covering the whole state, hired another part-timer, and we've got about $40,500,000 in funding for our communities this year. Just finished a 5-year budget for a water system getting a new loan, and I hate budgets.

OH... and I got back on UO about two weeks ago and went from 112 to 120 imbuing and made a nice set of jewels for my archer.

I've noticed that the population is waaaay down on LS... what happened?

Are you still fishing, Storm?
Wow You have been a little busy I see! well glad you are ok yours where one of my fav posts to read and glad to see you back as for ls it is still busy just seems like the times people are on have moved to a later time than was normal!
as for fishing still working it when I get a chance about 90 I think well will talk to you later we probably should not have this convo here lol I would catch you on ls forum or playing !
Welcome back !!
 
O

Old Man of UO

Guest
How the hell! No it doesn't happen!! If your motherboard is dead the only way they gonna mess up your hard drive is droping it.
Or repeatedly scanning and defragging, plugging and unplugging it with the motherboard plugged in and live... fragged the files table.

The motherboard would boot past the POST and then hang on loading Windows. I confirmed it with another hard drive. The local computer shop thought they new better. By then it was too late. Of course, ASUS confirmed it ten days later and sent me a replacement. I had to fork out for a new MB in the mean time. The original hard drive still works, it was just lost the files table. So I got back 95% of my 300MB of work files, but had to sort and view every single one.
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
Cal... Sorry to bring up the classic shard issue again, but I've dedicated a fair bit of time on the classic shard threads expressing my interest in what I believe classic should entail, ideas, methods to controll things that got ot of hand etc and I know a lot of others have to. My question is are you guys reading anything we say on there? I realize it is a long way away from happening if at all but I just want to know if it's worth continuing the discussion or if we are just talking to ourselves?
 

Violence

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
If I understand correctly this Publish actually features adjustments to player movement and marks the start of anti-cheating methods' testing?

I would appreciate a clear, simple answer Mr. Cal... If there was a reason to have one! However..
What the answer really is does not even matter! I should make myself some pop-corn and watch what happens when cheaters start again with their usual arguements about privacy, pointlessness and the game becoming a waste-land.. And following, for when the Devs submit to these "pleas" and stop talking about it.

rolleyes: Maybe I'm being cynical but just take a look at the past and tell me I don't have a very good reason for it even if you find it offensive.

Personally I still will re-activate my account but I don't need(and don't appreciate) false promises to motivate me. It's a bit disrespectfull, I know exactly what kind of situation I'm jumping in. For all your changes so far, few are as potent as the more simple things you have over-looked such as timers on all potions and so on. I am not opening any can of worms but everyone reading this thread likely has a clue about all I could mention.

Still.. Thanks for listening and letting us know about your plans. Better than having FOFs.
 
C

Cal_Mythic

Guest
If I understand correctly this Publish actually features adjustments to player movement and marks the start of anti-cheating methods' testing?

I would appreciate a clear, simple answer Mr. Cal... If there was a reason to have one! However..
What the answer really is does not even matter! I should make myself some pop-corn and watch what happens when cheaters start again with their usual arguements about privacy, pointlessness and the game becoming a waste-land.. And following, for when the Devs submit to these "pleas" and stop talking about it.

rolleyes: Maybe I'm being cynical but just take a look at the past and tell me I don't have a very good reason for it even if you find it offensive.

Personally I still will re-activate my account but I don't need(and don't appreciate) false promises to motivate me. It's a bit disrespectfull, I know exactly what kind of situation I'm jumping in. For all your changes so far, few are as potent as the more simple things you have over-looked such as timers on all potions and so on. I am not opening any can of worms but everyone reading this thread likely has a clue about all I could mention.

Still.. Thanks for listening and letting us know about your plans. Better than having FOFs.
Actually I want to be very careful with making "empty promises". And I'm certain that those on Test Center are meeting varied results on our testing of the movement system. We are taking notes right now and Derek is working through the player inputs.

The intent is to make certain that everyone moves at the same rate. This is the first part.

The 2nd Stage which is 3rd party program detection is on internal test. And as mentioned in the producer's letter we are not going to tell players when we are taking it live... but we will take it through test center as well.

Why would we give the hackers a heads up?

Also .. I Looove Cynicism ... it goes really well with Ti ... a drink with Jam and bread ... that will bring us back to ...

Erm ..

Oh also ... there are very few things I find offensive. Calling us out on "our stuff" is not bad... it shows you care. Now ... if you're being mean just to be mean, that's not nice. (If that were the case I would not have responded).

Now of course, we can't fix everything for everyone. We try to stick to several major things, and then add other features into our "Dev Bucket" of additional features players ask (and yes we have a large list).

I hope this answers your question .. happy posting. Oh and "Cal" is fine :) ... Mr. Cal makes it sound like your sitting me at a restaurant for food I'm not gonna like.
 

Violence

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
:lol: Well then.. How should my reply to yours, start?

..Let's start at the very beginning,
A very good place to start
..When you read, you begin with..

Hehehe! ^.^
On a more serious note, what I read fully satisfied my curiosity and was to the point, in fact for the first time in any communication I've had with the people behind Ultima Online. Not only that, it's an answer I'm glad to have read! Thanks. Right then, I wish you luck and I hope that you largely succeed in your efforts against cheating. I don't really like quitting this game even if it's for several months... Not for such a reason anyway!

By the way.. I am sure there are very few dishes you wouldn't like where I live, regardless of what title is before your name! Unless of course sea food disagrees with your stomach, or if you have a thing against healthy eating! :p
 

Cogniac

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Let us explore, for a moment, the possible consequences of the anti-cheat measures, assuming they are completely or at least mostly successful.

Speedhackers Quit:
This is no great loss, as a.) there are very few speedhackers out there in comparison to the playerbase as a whole, so the game will not go under as a result, and b.) the entire point of speedhacking is to cheat to defeat others and ruin their play experience.
Conclusion: Net positive

Gold/Resource Farmers (RMT) Quit:

This is a more murky topic. There are several views concerning RMT operations:
  • View #1: "RMT is bad because it keeps prices low and devalues my by-hand efforts in the game. I cannot sell my wares for as much because RMT operations flood the market."
  • View #2: "RMT is good because it keeps prices low and makes resources available to all. I don't have the time and/or patience and/or skill to collect huge quantities or obscure resources, and I wouldn't be able to afford to purchase them if RMT operations weren't around to drive down prices. In fact, many resources wouldn't be for sale at all if it weren't for RMT."
  • View #3: "RMT is bad because someone once told me that it's bad, and since I lack original thought, that's good enough for me. So I will continue to irrationally hate RMT, and will constantly assert on the forums that RMT is illegal in real life law, even though it's not even against the rules of the game, and that anyone who engages in RMT is worse than Satan himself and most likely stabs puppies and should be tortured and hanged."
Ignoring the third view, there is about an equal amount of pro and con in this one. RMT operations keep prices low and goods accessible. RMT operators quitting is a net negative for casual players and, obviously, the RMT operators themselves. It is a net positive for by-hand player merchants and hardcore players (who derive greater value from their playing time by being among the few who have the time, skill, or desire to obtain obscure goods).
Conclusion: Net neutral

"Casual" Scripters Quit:
A "casual" scripter in this context is someone who scripts merely because there is no reason not to. In other words, they script purely because they can. Scripting for a casual scripter is merely viewed as a quick shortcut. These people, if faced with punitive consequences, would just quit scripting rather than quit the game itself.
Conclusion: N/A

"Functional" Scripters Quit:
A "functional" scripter in this context is someone who, when faced with a tedious, poorly designed game system, decides to use scripting as a means to bypass the boring, un-fun portions of that system. They do not script to achieve a particular advantage, to support a business, or even just because they can. Their logical train of thought is "I am playing a game, and games are supposed to be fun. This is not fun. I should find a way to make it fun or else not do it at all." When they can no longer use their scripts to avoid un-fun situations, they will most likely decide to just not take part in that game system at all. After enough game systems are closed off to them in this manner, they will take stock of how little of the game they are actually interested in, and quit.
Conclusion: Net negative

Anti-Cheat Players Rejoin:
Players who played for a short time, but quit due to having to compete with cheaters, will not return. These players have very little, if any, vested interest in the game, and it being fun was the only thing keeping them playing. Most will likely not even keep abreast of current events concerning the game, and thus will not even know that the cheats are gone. These players played UO as any other game, and dropped it when it stopped being fun for them.
Players who had extensive histories playing UO, but quit due to the growing propagation of cheats and hacks, will most likely return over time. These players have deep vested interests in the game as a community, and the widespread cheating is the only thing keeping them away. These players will also spread good word-of-mouth about the game, and will attempt to entice other old players to return and new players to try the game for the first time.
Conclusion: Net positive

People will quit over the anti-cheat measures. And people will join back up because of them. But it seems doubtful that they will be the impetus for the doom or resurgence of UO.
 

Violence

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Precisely. I hope this once there will be no second thoughts about it.. :thumbup1:
 

RawHeadRex

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I would like for it to not be there and just have the current system handling it just fine.

If we start cracking down in too many players, then the game itself will lose so many players it won't survive.

We've lived all this time with cheaters and things are just fine.
ridiculous
 
O

Old Man of UO

Guest
I'm a bit disappointed to see there is no additional information regarding any upcoming changes for Bards.

This from the Producer's Letter: "In addition, we’re turning our attention to Bards. I’m not mentioning WHY we are, but let’s just say there are some tales will need to be told with a bit of style, and the there will be some things done best with a “well encouraged” group."

Are there new Bard abilities, spells, or just a one-time event for Bards (blah!). When was the last time Bards actually got anything useful... enticement to discord change?
 

Coldren

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Gold/Resource Farmers (RMT) Quit:

This is a more murky topic. There are several views concerning RMT operations:
  • View #1: "RMT is bad because it keeps prices low and devalues my by-hand efforts in the game. I cannot sell my wares for as much because RMT operations flood the market."
  • View #2: "RMT is good because it keeps prices low and makes resources available to all. I don't have the time and/or patience and/or skill to collect huge quantities or obscure resources, and I wouldn't be able to afford to purchase them if RMT operations weren't around to drive down prices. In fact, many resources wouldn't be for sale at all if it weren't for RMT."
I would argue against this because prices are high because the availability of gold is high, in no small part due to farmers and scripters selling millions for pennies on the dollar. Remember when a castle went for a million gold and it was an astounding number?

The value of gold has gone down due to high availability. If gold was rarer (Less gold per monster, no gold from farmers/RMT), resources and items couldn't cost an arm and a leg because no one could afford it.

However, the issue remains that the money in circulation isn't going anywhere, but that's another issue.
 

Cogniac

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Your argument is predicated on the assumption that RMT is restricted to gold farming; they also farm resources of all kinds. No RMT = much fewer resources = demand far outweighs supply = resource prices rise.

This wouldn't be so bad, and would most likely normalize over a period of several years, except, as you point out:
However, the issue remains that the money in circulation isn't going anywhere...
This simple fact means that the relatively sudden lack of resources is not accompanied by a relatively sudden lack of gold; the rich will be just as rich as they were before RMT went away, both relatively and actually. The situation will not exist where sellers are incapable of astronomically raising the prices of resources because literally no one would be able to buy them. Casual players will be cut out of the high-quantity and high-rarity resource market even more so than they are currently.
 
C

Cal_Mythic

Guest
I'm a bit disappointed to see there is no additional information regarding any upcoming changes for Bards.

This from the Producer's Letter: "In addition, we’re turning our attention to Bards. I’m not mentioning WHY we are, but let’s just say there are some tales will need to be told with a bit of style, and the there will be some things done best with a “well encouraged” group."

Are there new Bard abilities, spells, or just a one-time event for Bards (blah!). When was the last time Bards actually got anything useful... enticement to discord change?
We are going through the 3rd iteration of the design review on the Bard changes. We will not give more detail until these are confirmed internally. Also, historically we save that info a few days before we go to Test Center.

The reason for mentioning anything in a producer's letter is to state that it's slated for the next publish, or to update the status of former items (such as the status on movement or 3rd party program detection).

Suffice it to say that our focus is to make Bard's if not instrumental (pun intended) for a successful group .. at least a a forethought in everyone's mind for adventuring in Britannia.

- c
 

Widow Maker

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Woohoo..Bard LOVE!!!! I have played a Bard since the very early days of their inception. It was awesome fun (prior to the nerf in to oblivion). I still have a full 120'd out Mage bard. Please allow us to use our bardic joys on Players again!!!!!!!!
 

Viquire

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I just hope that if they are going to be "instrumental", we will also find them somewhat more "accessible".

Would you care to elaborate on your thoughts on their place in group pvp? Or is this train of thought mostly reserved for adventuring?
 

Saphireena

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Just a little fictional story using PvP as an example to describe how I see the cheating issue.

Once upon a time, there were two PvP guilds. Let's call them the "Reds" and the "Blues" (completely unrelated to murderers and innocents btw) who were fierce rivals and constantly at war with one another. Each guild had 20 members and everyone played the game fair and square without cheating or hacking and had a lot of fun doing so. Battles were won with skill, tactics and intelligence and it was these very merits for which the best players earned immense respect and admiration. Some battles were won, some were lost - but that's what kept it interesting. Actually, everyone was pretty darned happy with how things were.

Then one day when the Reds were training together, someone said: "Hey guys watch this!" and demonstrated how he could zip all over the screen at ultra speed and run right through boxes. It was pure magic! The others in the guild said "Whoa... I wantzzz!!!" and soon everyone was busy practising their new-found techniques. They had become superior! Surely they would crush their worst enemy, the Blues in every single battle from now on!

After all Reds had mastered the cheating techniques, they spared no time in hunting out some Blues to test things out. Yew was always a good spot for that, and before long, word was out that the Reds were in town, bringing the Blues in for another good brawl.

But after a mere 10 minutes, the outskirts of Yew was strewn with the rotting corpses of each and every Blue. Now there was only a formation of ghosts looking quite dismayed and letting out an occasional OoooooOOoo. The ghoulish group fled the scene soon after, leaving the Reds to pillage their dead bodies.

Once the Blues had been resurrected, they had an emergency meeting and discussed what had just happened. "Did you see how fast they ran?" "Did you see how they were able to run straight through boxes to shield themselves from our attacks?" "How on earth did they do that?"

Then came a low weary voice: "I know how. And as much as I hate to say this, if we are to stay alive and have any chance competing against those brutes, we will need to use the same secret techniques. My cousin's friend's brother's neighbour knows how, and he can teach us."

And thus, a dark age dawned upon Sosaria, as the plague of cheating and hacking spread throughout the lands. Winning a battle had little to do with honour, skill and bravery anymore - it had become about knowing how to script and hack, how to trick and cheat. It was no longer about winning your fellow player at a fair duel, it was about winning the system, outsmarting the very hand that fed you. By beating the very game that gave you so much enjoyment to start out with.

It had all started with 40 fair playing players, but all that was needed was 1 to quickly turn them into 40 cheaters. A bit of an extreme example but you get the idea.

Summarized: From what I have heard from various sources, the majority of players don't use these hacks because they want to, but because they have to to be able to be equal with others. And if those hacks had never been introduced in the first place, everyone would be quite happy playing the game based on the way it was originally designed. As long as everyone has equal chances, even flaws don't feel that bad, because at least you know other people are having to "work their way around it" just like you. But it's when someone else has some handy dandy script or hack to get a short cut and you are left having to endure those flaws, that's when it feels unfair.

So basically, I don't think that fixing cheating bugs or wiping out third party programs will drive away a large chunk of players. Maybe a few, but like someone in this thread already said - everyone has come to play the game because they like it, not to cheat. My guess is that the majority of cheaters will get used to playing things fair again. I'd dare bet that a lot of them will actually be relieved to do so!
 
T

Trebr Drab

Guest
Suffice it to say that our focus is to make Bard's if not instrumental (pun intended) for a successful group .. at least a a forethought in everyone's mind for adventuring in Britannia.

- c
And then you'll have to balance MOBs to groups with bards, making them a requirement.

Give us a "classic" shard.
 

Viquire

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Saph,

I'm sure the first part of your tale comes from truth. And I'm equally sure that some of those that pvp with these, well, lets be nice and call them tools. Will be happy to return to a day when they have to actively hit hot keys and maybe even dbl click the occasional icon.

The mindset is now so prevalent that these "super" pvpers rather than become dismayed when asked how they attained such God like prowess, flaunt their dominance and curse those who fall in glory as babes in arms. *shakes head sadly*

Will those be ready to doff their mantles of preeminence?
 

Llewen

Grand Inquisitor
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Just a little fictional story using PvP as an example to describe how I see the cheating issue.

Once upon a time, there were two PvP guilds. Let's call them the "Reds" and the "Blues" (completely unrelated to murderers and innocents btw) who were fierce rivals and constantly at war with one another. Each guild had 20 members and everyone played the game fair and square without cheating or hacking and had a lot of fun doing so. Battles were won with skill, tactics and intelligence and it was these very merits for which the best players earned immense respect and admiration. Some battles were won, some were lost - but that's what kept it interesting. Actually, everyone was pretty darned happy with how things were.
The sad thing this time never existed in UO. UO has been a haven for cheaters almost since the day it was created.

Summarized: From what I have heard from various sources, the majority of players don't use these hacks because they want to, but because they have to to be able to be equal with others.
The truth is you never have to cheat. It's a choice you make. And not everyone does cheat, and you don't even have to cheat to compete. I don't cheat, and I do well enough to keep me happy. Do I lose to other players that do cheat? I'm sure I do, but I beat enough of them to give me a nice warm glow of satisfaction when I do it, and when I lose to a cheater, it isn't so bad, after all he was cheating.

No one forces anyone to cheat, it's a choice you make, and when you choose to cheat you cheapen all of the victories you do win, and make your losses even more embarrassing. And it doesn't matter if no one else ever finds out, there is a judge that you can fool some of the time, but never all of the time, and that is your own self.
 

Saphireena

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Llewen;1676433 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************1676433******end_of_the_skype_highlighting said:
The sad thing this time never existed in UO. UO has been a haven for cheaters almost since the day it was created.
Yes, this much is sadly true. But I wasn't actually trying to represent the history of UO, instead I wanted to demonstrate, illustrate how honest players who are happy with the game (or any game for that matter!), can be turned to the dark side and how they will most likely return back to honest play once the source of evil and temptation is removed. :)

My son is very active in the PvP scene and I've heard him grumbling about speed hackers for years. He's a good and honest boy, but even he was tempted once, begging me to allow him to install some third party program to which he got a sharp "no". It was merely because he was so frustrated from losing to the cheaters over and over although he had always been very skilled in PvP before. His desire for this program soon passed though and now he is extremely active in trying to catch and report any cheaters he can. I am constantly getting automated messages from EA about the reports he made with my account. :)

The truth is you never have to cheat. It's a choice you make.
Very true again, and luckily the majority of us are good honest folk. But again, I was just trying to give my analysis on how and why those who do cheat, do in the first place. Emphasizing the fact that cheating was never something they were seeking out, rather something they had to resort to after a few evil buggers got the ball rolling. My son confirmed that that's exactly how it is amongst the people he plays with.
 

Violence

Lore Keeper
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Stratics Legend
This is not exactly true. You do not have to cheat if you wish to RP for example and that's a valid arguement.

But if you want to compete in anything that involves PVP actively(or seriously if I may put it that way) or if you want to participate in anything that involves even POTENTIAL PVP then people cheating is going to force you to seek a way of leveling out the field.

The final choice is yours but it's Catch-22. From the instant there IS A CHOICE TO CHEAT, how can you blame the cheaters, regardless of their morality?

Don't hate the player, hate the game.. As less literal as that can be put, because if we really hated the game we wouldn't play. But you get my point hopefully.

Have no illusions. And the fact that most cheaters are FORCED into it does not make them any less cheaters than the "few evil buggers" that pushed them into it, so I'd say it's safe to assume the majority of players at least in PVP and PVP related activities ARE cheaters, in contrast of what Saphireena says. Sorry to burst that bubble.
 

Saphireena

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I wasn't meaning to turn this into a debate about moral choices, instead I was addressing all of those worried people who believe that if EA cracks down on cheating, we will lose a huge amount of players and UO will basically die.

I just wanted to demonstrate that this is not necessarily true when we investigate the original motives behind why these people may have cheated in the first place. I should have never gotten so complex in my original response hehe :).
 

Lord Chaos

Always Present
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The 2nd Stage which is 3rd party program detection is on internal test. And as mentioned in the producer's letter we are not going to tell players when we are taking it live... but we will take it through test center as well.
That is simply going to end up doing more harm than good, the game has balanced itself for 10+ years with certain 3rd party tools, especially tools that alleviate the multitudes of short comings of UO.
 

Lord Chaos

Always Present
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Stratics Legend
Summarized: From what I have heard from various sources, the majority of players don't use these hacks because they want to, but because they have to to be able to be equal with others.
Well, see there's the catch, if you replace the cheat program with a few very skilled PvP'ers, better than the other team, then you have same outcome, yet the cheating program was not the cause anymore.

In the end you'll still have people getting "pwned" by others of better connection, better computers, better pings, better tactics, better group play, etc. etc.

And to the normal observer, it will still seem like they're cheating.

So basically, I don't think that fixing cheating bugs or wiping out third party programs will drive away a large chunk of players. Maybe a few, but like someone in this thread already said - everyone has come to play the game because they like it, not to cheat. My guess is that the majority of cheaters will get used to playing things fair again. I'd dare bet that a lot of them will actually be relieved to do so!
The problem is that you're only looking at 3rd party apps from the PvP perspective, there are a lot of 3rd party apps ranging from RP'ing tools, manging tools, turn-in tools to macro/skill training scripts.
 

Martyna Zmuir

Crazed Zealot
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Stratics Legend
Suffice it to say that our focus is to make Bard's if not instrumental (pun intended) for a successful group .. at least a a forethought in everyone's mind for adventuring in Britannia.

By all means beef up bards, they desperately need some love.

However, please do not create the next uber template, or require that all groups must now have a bard in them to be successful... That will end in failure, and unhappy p(l)ayers as their game is needlessly upended again.

Simply make bards useful in a group, not necessary.

We've had too many uber templates the last few years.. Sampires, archers, etc. What you need to do is BALANCE the game, balance the templates. Give each 'class' a damage output that is roughly equal to all the others. Period.
 

Llewen

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I wasn't meaning to turn this into a debate about moral choices, instead I was addressing all of those worried people who believe that if EA cracks down on cheating, we will lose a huge amount of players and UO will basically die.

I just wanted to demonstrate that this is not necessarily true when we investigate the original motives behind why these people may have cheated in the first place. I should have never gotten so complex in my original response hehe :).
Well, I guess I also didn't need to get up on my high horse this time. It's just the whole issue makes me cranky. I did get your well intentioned point. Here's hoping Sosaria becomes a better world for honest players in the not too distant future.
 

Airhaun

Seasoned Veteran
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Stratics Legend
Saphireena, where did you come from? In your original post and subsequent posts you articulate the epic struggle of PvP. Those who cheat and those who don't, what goes through their minds and what motivates them.

Thank you for your post. If anything when the devs read it they will get an idea (if they already don't) of what its like to want to play by their rules but be up against those who don't and the extreme advantages they have. Keep on chugging devs!

Steady as she goes...
 

Violence

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
In the end you'll still have people getting "pwned" by others of better connection, better computers, better pings, better tactics, better group play.

There are a lot of 3rd party apps ranging from RP'ing tools, manging tools, turn-in tools.

The game has balanced itself for 10+ years with certain 3rd party tools, especially tools that alleviate the multitudes of short comings of UO.
You're saying that because several legitimate players will shine in Ultima if cheating is dealt with, and because that would appear as cheating, we should not deal with cheating in the first place? Ridiculous notion. Maybe then we should also refuse to use the SA client because under certain circumstances it's faster than the 2D one(when no cheating is involved), and people get confused..? Heh.

Instead of supporting ANY third party application provide feed-back to the team Help over-come the short-come. As far as enhancing client functionality based on player suggestions you can't have any complains, they're on top of it. You can even modify the UI and tailor it to a satisfactory extent. Even considering you may wish to use the 2D client mainly, it won't hurt switching to the SA one to sort out your crafting needs or whatever. And please do not try to convince me your computer won't run it, there have been countless arguements about this.

You do know you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs first..? Your reasoning matches only that of cheaters and whether you do or do not consider yourself one -- since you could argue you only use "tools" as you call them -- does not concern the rest of us(no intention of sounding elitist) who'd sacrifice these "tools" for the common good if I may put it so cheesily.

On top of all of that, who said the team will be crude in their purging of cheats?.. Maybe those "tools" won't be affected.

And I'm sorry, but .. "The game has balanced itself"?? :lol: What exactly does that mean? "We've gotten used to cheating, as a side-effect we get to cheat a little too, let it be"? :thumbup1: I know training skills can be a pain, on the other hand the only people who need to constantly re-train tedious skills are only those who try to always match the "Flavour Of The Week" template or for some reason will not use Soul Stones.
 

Lord Chaos

Always Present
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Stratics Legend
You're saying that because several legitimate players will shine in Ultima if cheating is dealt with, and because that would appear as cheating, we should not deal with cheating in the first place? Ridiculous notion. Maybe then we should also refuse to use the SA client because under certain circumstances it's faster than the 2D one(when no cheating is involved), and people get confused..? Heh.
The whole point is that people will still be whining and perhaps whining even more than before, it will still seem like people cheat.

And then you have new cheats developed and then the cycle continues.

Instead of supporting ANY third party application provide feed-back to the team Help over-come the short-come. As far as enhancing client functionality based on player suggestions you can't have any complains, they're on top of it. You can even modify the UI and tailor it to a satisfactory extent. Even considering you may wish to use the 2D client mainly, it won't hurt switching to the SA one to sort out your crafting needs or whatever. And please do not try to convince me your computer won't run it, there have been countless arguements about this.
The SA client *DOESN'T* run on lower end machines, lower end laptops and not any netbooks at all.

Either way, me and many others will refuse to be pushed over into that abomination that is the EC.

You do know you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs first..? Your reasoning matches only that of cheaters and whether you do or do not consider yourself one -- since you could argue you only use "tools" as you call them -- does not concern the rest of us(no intention of sounding elitist) who'd sacrifice these "tools" for the common good if I may put it so cheesily.
this is usually the problem with the rabid anti-cheating crowd, you're so arrogant that you're more than willing to sacrifice good players and the whole game itself for your crusade.

On top of all of that, who said the team will be crude in their purging of cheats?.. Maybe those "tools" won't be affected.
Or they might be anyway.

And I'm sorry, but .. "The game has balanced itself"?? :lol: What exactly does that mean? "We've gotten used to cheating, as a side-effect we get to cheat a little too, let it be"? :thumbup1: I know training skills can be a pain, on the other hand the only people who need to constantly re-train tedious skills are only those who try to always match the "Flavour Of The Week" template or for some reason will not use Soul Stones.
A lot of people train skills and have multiple accounts of characters. You cannot soul stone between accounts either.

And UO has gone along just fine with it for so many years, in fact at this point at least half the UO population cheats in one form or another. This is definetly not going to be a development to the better, as there won't be enough influx of new or returning players to make up for the quitting/banned players.

Sadly a lot of those who cheat actually acts like anti-cheaters and are vocal about it, to 1. Keep a reputation as cheat-free and 2. They're very certain that their favorite cheat won't be detected or the author finds a way around the detection method.
 
L

Lady Arianne

Guest
Download the original attachment

So we’ve been busy.

At this moment Publish 65 is baking on Test Center and soon you’ll be enjoying all of the work we put into it.

Before I tell you what’s next and discuss what we missed I want to let everyone know where I’ve been.

Tokyo!/QUOTE]



Sorry but .....................................*yawn*
 
O

Old Man of UO

Guest
...

this is usually the problem with the rabid anti-cheating crowd, you're so arrogant that you're more than willing to sacrifice good players and the whole game itself for your crusade.

...
Here's the difference between the Cheaters and us "arrogant" anti-Cheaters: We (the non-Cheaters) want a fair game with an equal chance for everyone to have fun. Cheaters want to win any way they can... and then brag about their "accomplishments." Cheaters will justify anything and everything they do, just as you are doing for them.

So yeah, I am willing to sacrifice a few Cheaters for the greater good of the game.
 
E

Evlar

Guest
Two things that will encourage me to return to UO.

1· Well implemented fixes to better combat cheating and better enforcement of anti-cheating policy. (The two amount to the same thing).

2· A classic shard option for those who prefer pre-AoS game play.

:)
 

Surgeries

Grand Poobah
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Stratics Legend
Here's the difference between the Cheaters and us "arrogant" anti-Cheaters: We (the non-Cheaters) want a fair game with an equal chance for everyone to have fun. Cheaters want to win any way they can... and then brag about their "accomplishments." Cheaters will justify anything and everything they do, just as you are doing for them.

So yeah, I am willing to sacrifice a few Cheaters for the greater good of the game.
/Signed.
 

Llewen

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
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Campaign Supporter
Here's the difference between the Cheaters and us "arrogant" anti-Cheaters: We (the non-Cheaters) want a fair game with an equal chance for everyone to have fun. Cheaters want to win any way they can... and then brag about their "accomplishments." Cheaters will justify anything and everything they do, just as you are doing for them.

So yeah, I am willing to sacrifice a few Cheaters for the greater good of the game.
/double signed...
 

LordDrago

Certifiable
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Here's the difference between the Cheaters and us "arrogant" anti-Cheaters: We (the non-Cheaters) want a fair game with an equal chance for everyone to have fun. Cheaters want to win any way they can... and then brag about their "accomplishments." Cheaters will justify anything and everything they do, just as you are doing for them.

So yeah, I am willing to sacrifice a few Cheaters for the greater good of the game.
/triple signed
 
E

Evlar

Guest
Here's the difference between the Cheaters and us "arrogant" anti-Cheaters: We (the non-Cheaters) want a fair game with an equal chance for everyone to have fun. Cheaters want to win any way they can... and then brag about their "accomplishments." Cheaters will justify anything and everything they do, just as you are doing for them.

So yeah, I am willing to sacrifice a few Cheaters for the greater good of the game.
/ *Uses Rubber Stamp* (My signature handwriting is terrible ;) )


To quote my own post though...

1· Well implemented fixes to better combat cheating and better enforcement of anti-cheating policy. (The two amount to the same thing).
As well as any game mechanics, this also has to be good, to make prevention of cheating work well.
 
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