Bigger Siege Problem?

[Hugibear]

I understand that equipping is a large problem with siege. I will admit it is a pain in the ass when you die, and you have to go buy, or fish thru alot of junk to reequip. But I believe there is a bigger problem. They way certain skills work with each other and in game issues. My problem is ninjitsu, hiding, stealth, and taming. You can combine 3 outta 4 of these skills and make an over powered temp on siege. Or even worse and have all 4 of those skills working together. A decent person will not die on that template. That is unbalanced. I believe we need atleast one of the following if not more passive detect, when you hide your pet stops everything, if your pet does damage you are revealed, put stealth back to the way it was counting steps, all area spells damage hidin people. Even with access to the most uber gear, that doesnt mean people are going to wear it. Which equals the temps i listed above will still be way overpowered.

 

[Mook Chessy]

I agree, make 120/120/100 (stealth/ninja/hiding) needed to move about. This alone will change alot of templates. Also make Animal Form cost 1 control slot, that will fix the GD problem, though Dreadmares are the flavor of the month.

What Siege needs now is people to log in at the same time. Yesterday is a perfect example, I am in vent with Diablo and he tells me he is fighting Forsaken to come to him in map, off I go. Well when he sees the gank Forsaken leaves, not that I can blame him, why fight 2v1. Later in the day I am running around and see Kage and Forsaken and another orange yet I am the only person in vent.

If we had got lucky and the timing went right we could have had some fights, I guess we need to just keep trying until it all comes together!

I hope the Faction changes they speak of will give Siege a boost! Seems more people are logging in over the last week or so.

Woot!

 

[Kat]

Yeah! And lets remove Spell channeling from shields to do away with overpowered mages that can't be hit and reduce mage spells to 10-15 or so, like all the other caster types. Great ideas! Keep them coming!

 

[Speedy Orkit]

Parry is not that much of a problem, the problem is that dexers here do not know how to combat it. I killed Pappy, Death, Superstition, etc on my dexer. I even got Kage pretty low a few times in Glow one day. Play on production and you will see what I mean. Dexer > Mages.

Passive detect however, is a big problem to me. I don't think 120/120/120 should be necessary, as that seems a bit much... but I do think 100/100/100 is fair. At 120/120/100 the person should be like 95% resistant to passive detect, but at GM only like 70%. All those skills do need a fix, and I agree with Hugi on the damaging stealthers thing, that needs fixed asap.

If you would not rely on brute strength of a template, like AI AI AI AI, and go for a little finesse to mess up a mages timing or throw them off, you could get somewhere. Know what template jacks me up on TC? Archer/swords/DP.

Bleed
AI
DP
AI with comp bow, or if I run moving shot with heavy.

 

[HaHa]

Over powered stealth and tamers have been one of the biggest issues for me for a number of years. No way a naked stealth tamer should have the power they do.

 

[Ru TnT]

you guys could try using track/detect, you'd have to take off some other skills, but you'd be able to deal with the stealthers. plus not being able to fit every skill onto a single template would still give you people something silly to whine about...

 

[Mook Chessy]

I'm not trying to speak to a specific template, just that you should need more the 75 stealth to move without limits.

 

[Sunchicken]

you guys could try using track/detect, you'd have to take off some other skills, but you'd be able to deal with the stealthers. plus not being able to fit every skill onto a single template would still give you people something silly to whine about...

Let 120 mage 75 eval 100 scribe give me full benifits then ill stop pancakes about 100 hide 120 ninja 75 stealth giving full benifits.

 

[Kage]

Yeah! And lets remove Spell channeling from shields to do away with overpowered mages that can't be hit and reduce mage spells to 10-15 or so, like all the other caster types. Great ideas! Keep them coming!

Remove sc from shields I could handle that as long as they give me a spell that's equal to moving shot and can be casted on the run with no delay...

 

[Calibretto]

Yeah! And lets remove Spell channeling from shields to do away with overpowered mages that can't be hit and reduce mage spells to 10-15 or so, like all the other caster types. Great ideas! Keep them coming!

I agree with you on the shield. But to reduce spell damage would be silly. A good chiv dexxer with bush and potions should never die to a single mage.

 

[Calibretto]

I understand that equipping is a large problem with siege. I will admit it is a pain in the ass when you die, and you have to go buy, or fish thru alot of junk to reequip. But I believe there is a bigger problem. They way certain skills work with each other and in game issues. My problem is ninjitsu, hiding, stealth, and taming. You can combine 3 outta 4 of these skills and make an over powered temp on siege. Or even worse and have all 4 of those skills working together. A decent person will not die on that template. That is unbalanced. I believe we need atleast one of the following if not more passive detect, when you hide your pet stops everything, if your pet does damage you are revealed, put stealth back to the way it was counting steps, all area spells damage hidin people. Even with access to the most uber gear, that doesnt mean people are going to wear it. Which equals the temps i listed above will still be way overpowered.

100% agree.

 

[Kage]

I agree with you on the shield. But to reduce spell damage would be silly. A good chiv dexxer with bush and potions should never die to a single mage.

How can you agree with that? Have you tried playing a Mage without parry? Give it a try and let me know how that works for you

 

[Tiberius]

Remove sc from shields I could handle that as long as they give me a spell that's equal to moving shot and can be casted on the run with no delay...

I miss the way fireball wands used to work; used to be my preferred chase down method.

 

[Førsaken]

I agree with you on the shield. But to reduce spell damage would be silly. A good chiv dexxer with bush and potions should never die to a single mage.

How can you agree with that? Have you tried playing a Mage without parry? Give it a try and let me know how that works for you

Yeah...people who cry about parry/shields are pretty dumb. We're already gimping our offense to cope with the fact that we'll die almost instantly vs the archers without parry.

It's pretty funny though, that TnT of all guilds are complaining about it. Archers much? And Cali just doesn't know...I'll forgive his ignorance.

@Mook - Yeah, I'm not fighting a dismount 2v1.

 

[Diablo FTW]

cry more? rolleyes:

 

[Førsaken]

cry more? rolleyes:

Faction Rune more? 1v1 fail? Kthxbai!

 

[Diablo FTW]

leet hax more?.....

 

[Førsaken]

leet hax more?.....

:gun:

 

[Fanta(Siege)]

leet hax more?.....

Dictionary.com

 

[Vaelix]

you guys could try using track/detect, you'd have to take off some other skills, but you'd be able to deal with the stealthers. plus not being able to fit every skill onto a single template would still give you people something silly to whine about...

Ruuuuuu!! (Dante)

Anyway, as you know I've Run tracking/detect, And Honestly i dont have a problem with the Stealth Skills at all.. The problem is... When you bring out a Track / Detect.. The PvP Generally stops because most of the pvpers have become so reliant on Stealth, they have no idea what to do without it.

You guys just dont see it cause your fighting Us... If you were in my Shoes fighting TnT / Jsv... You'd see the problem.

*Random Note* 120 Mage 100 Detect *SHOULD* = Reveal Spell working versus stealthers.

 

[Ru TnT]

Ruuuuuu!! (Dante)

Anyway, as you know I've Run tracking/detect, And Honestly i dont have a problem with the Stealth Skills at all.. The problem is... When you bring out a Track / Detect.. The PvP Generally stops because most of the pvpers have become so reliant on Stealth, they have no idea what to do without it.

You guys just dont see it cause your fighting Us... If you were in my Shoes fighting TnT / Jsv... You'd see the problem.

*Random Note* 120 Mage 100 Detect *SHOULD* = Reveal Spell working versus stealthers.

the problem is with the players then, not stealth, when revealed, most stealthers just run anyway(maybe we can cry about running being overpowered next... rolleyes: ) i've seen it plenty, we/jsv aren't the only guilds with stealthers that would bail at the sight of a revealer.

i agree with the mage+detect, but some people would cry nerf than have to use another skill. i also agree that animal forms(llama/ossie and up)/flying should use a control slot, and pvp pet damage should reveal a stealther.

 

[CroakerTnT]

I agree that ninja stealth tamers with smokebombs are a problem and I'd like to see a fix. Some of those ideas might work well.

I don't want to see passive detect as it makes thieving almost impossible.

However, I'd support the following, depending on the details of implemention:

1. pet bonding uses your siege bless. (note: this is tricky. What about when I bond a pack of frenzieds? Is that the equivalent of 5 siege blesses?)
2. pet attacking stops if you hide/smokebomb. (for PvP, but not for PvM)
3. pet damaging another character reveals you. (again, pvp only)
4. smokebombs need delay timers (probably 2-3 seconds) and should be interruptible
5. If you hide, you are temporarily 'grey' and thus can be hit by any area affect spells and revealed.
6. It should require 100 hiding and 120 stealth to be 100% sure of stealthing away if you are wearing armor of any kind. Make it based on the total resists of the armor if you like, rather than on the weight of the armor. A naked thief having 100% stealthing chance at 75 stealth is fine, but not a mage wearing an all 70's leather imbued suit. The latter should require 120 stealth.

 

[Speedy Orkit]

If they removed parry, as soon as the first heavy Xbow/Myst char was made on Siege, everyone would beg for it back. Parry is fine, sorry you can't kill me by clicking and following ;(

As for passive detect, I have advocated this for quite some time.

Running track/detect is useless on a template. This is how it goes:

*detect* You run.
*detect* You smoke bomb and walk off because you have no delay, but I do.

YAY SKILLZ!

 

[Ru TnT]

Running track/detect is useless on a template. This is how it goes:

*detect* You run.
*detect* You smoke bomb and walk off because you have no delay, but I do.

YAY SKILLZ!

YAY for knowing how to play the game! Are we trying to find some kinda balance for pvp or just trying to find a way to lower the skill required to pvp??

 

[Kage]

YAY for knowing how to play the game! Are we trying to find some kinda balance for pvp or just trying to find a way to lower the skill required to pvp??

Of course a guy who only runs hide, and stealth templates would pancake about something being changed with it... if it wasn't so over powered then why do all of your character run hide/stealth/ninja??? OH THAT'S RIGHT BECAUSE YOU CANT BE KILLED

 

[Speedy Orkit]

YAY for knowing how to play the game! Are we trying to find some kinda balance for pvp or just trying to find a way to lower the skill required to pvp??

Stealth/hide has no timer inbetween the two, so give me to timer in between detect hidden.

 

[Ru TnT]

Stealth/hide has no timer inbetween the two, so give me to timer in between detect hidden.

you don't need to get rid of the timer between detects for it to be effective, i think its fine as it is. removing it would make hide/stealth useless, and then every stealther would just run away whenever a detector is around.

 

[Ru TnT]

Of course a guy who only runs hide, and stealth templates would pancake about something being changed with it... if it wasn't so over powered then why do all of your character run hide/stealth/ninja??? OH THAT'S RIGHT BECAUSE YOU CANT BE KILLED

one char is a red thief, kinda need the suprise factor from stealth, people probably wouldn't stand around with a red next to them goin through thier pack...the other char runs hide/stealth/ninja for ds damage and because it makes hunting other stealthers alot easier. i enjoy hunting other stealthers, nerfing hide/stealth like you guys want would take all the fun outta it...

 

[Draxous]

the problem is with the players then, not stealth, when revealed, most stealthers just run anyway(maybe we can cry about running being overpowered next... rolleyes: ) i've seen it plenty, we/jsv aren't the only guilds with stealthers that would bail at the sight of a revealer.

Actually... about running. I wish mounts had stamina. I'd love to see how players who run non-stop, deal with stamina management.

 

[nightstalker22]

Stealth/hide has no timer inbetween the two, so give me to timer in between detect hidden.

The detect Hidden skill benefits the reveal spell as well.

While detect hidden has a timer, you can cast reveal as fast as your casting rate allows.

Reveal also has a 100% detection rate for anyone hiding using invisibilty spell, no detect hidden skill needed.

Conflag pots, earthquakes, wildfires, etc... will reveal a hidden player as well ( if they flagged on you or are red ).

Seems pretty balanced to me.

 

[nightstalker22]

Actually... about running. I wish mounts had stamina. I'd love to see how players who run non-stop, deal with stamina management.

Just cast Divine Fury for a 100% refill.

 

[Vaelix]

you don't need to get rid of the timer between detects for it to be effective, i think its fine as it is. removing it would make hide/stealth useless, and then every stealther would just run away whenever a detector is around.

This is already the case... 90% Of Stealthers Already just run away when a detector is around.

 

[N49ATV]

All running stealth and hide templates does is force someone to not has as much fun by lowering thier skills used for offence. So now if you have a group of players, and one to two detectors, sure your gonna find them, but now one to two people are not having as much fun. If everyone would just run shown templates, im sure that would fix the issues.

 

[HaHa]

you guys could try using track/detect, you'd have to take off some other skills, but you'd be able to deal with the stealthers. plus not being able to fit every skill onto a single template would still give you people something silly to whine about...

I have these skills on Gerbiler and I can admit that hiding/stealth/ninja and smoke bombs are way too easy to run. Keep in mind Hugi also has a hiding/stealth/ninja template so its not like either of us are talking from inexperience here.

 

[Ru TnT]

I have these skills on Gerbiler and I can admit that hiding/stealth/ninja and smoke bombs are way too easy to run. Keep in mind Hugi also has a hiding/stealth/ninja template so its not like either of us are talking from inexperience here.

i'm not saying its not easy to run them, i'm saying its balanced with a decent detector around. how often did i gerbiler die/find the nearest house to hide in when i was around? hide/stealth/bombs help you then?

 

[Ru TnT]

All running stealth and hide templates does is force someone to not has as much fun by lowering thier skills used for offence. So now if you have a group of players, and one to two detectors, sure your gonna find them, but now one to two people are not having as much fun. If everyone would just run shown templates, im sure that would fix the issues.

i've been running my detector for atleast 4 years now, not once has my fun been ruined because i had detect on, it's my favorite template to play. the great thing about uo is that you have the freedom to do what you want, why force other people to play the game your way? i do not see any issues with hide/stealth/ninja/bombs alone, but there are plenty of issues when combined with taming.

 

[N49ATV]

I guess its each to thier own. I agree taming is an issue. But **** it always has been in PvP. Look when you could have 6 Drags, or 5 WWs. Then they put slots in, and then they gave GDs. Taming has always been lame in PvP.

The only reason to have hide/stealth/ninja/track is for an assasin. After that there is no real need. Ninja alone gets you outta ganks

 

[Hugibear]

Here is a picture of the average siege pvper computer setup. I have been told that you just make that button into your smoke bomb macro. When you get into too much trouble just wack the button.

 

[Hugibear]

Seriously tho, this is the hard shard. You shouldnt be able to get a free pass everytime you get hit by something. By pressing the easy button, smoke bombin and movin away.
Ru you are completely worthless vs someone like me when I play a stealther. You need to rely on a gank to kill someone. But anyone with half a wit can out maneuvor a tracker/detector. It isnt hard if you know the game mechanics.

 

[N49ATV]

Thats the ****ty thing about stealth. In order to properly combat it, you lose the offensive edge for the kill.

But its the development of the game that causes issues like this. Since they added it without thought of how it would be abused, thus our current issues.

However, the biggest problem is peoples love with pixels, and not wanting to die. Its just a game, its just items. If more people were not worried about dieing, then there would be less stealth/hide, less ganks. And thus more fun. But since its in our human nature to wanna win, we starting using everything we can to win, and here we sit.

 

[Kage]

Thats the ****ty thing about stealth. In order to properly combat it, you lose the offensive edge for the kill.

But its the development of the game that causes issues like this. Since they added it without thought of how it would be abused, thus our current issues.

However, the biggest problem is peoples love with pixels, and not wanting to die. Its just a game, its just items. If more people were not worried about dieing, then there would be less stealth/hide, less ganks. And thus more fun. But since its in our human nature to wanna win, we starting using everything we can to win, and here we sit.

Lol mmmm no you don't, a stealth tamer can dominate played correctly, stealth, ninja, with track doing 60 points death strikes are pretty brutal as well,

And if I had the skill worked for the Mystic/focus/ stealth ninja template I thought up people would be crying like crazy...

 

[HaHa]

Exactly, anyone remember what Shak did when he ran his equipped tamer with the GD?

 

[Draxous]

Actually... about running. I wish mounts had stamina. I'd love to see how players who run non-stop, deal with stamina management.

Just cast Divine Fury for a 100% refill.

Divine fury doesn't work on a mount man... lol

It used to be that a mount had stamina of it's own and when you ran around on the mount... it would drain the stamina. You'd have to stop, stand still and let it refresh or feed your pet to refill it's stam. Otherwise the mount would just walk and not run.

People in Trammel complained about it so they removed it. Hypothetically... a tamer gets and advantage because better pets = more stam so you could run longer (also faction warhorses were beefed up to have more stam too.)

No endless chasing (I've ran some marathons chasing players like Krystal from luna to Umbra then back to luna... no way in hell that would of happened if they had mount stam in.)


lastly... I doubt they could put it back in cause they'd need to address animal form, which I'm not sure that they can.

 

[nightstalker22]

Divine fury doesn't work on a mount man... lol

It used to be that a mount had stamina of it's own and when you ran around on the mount... it would drain the stamina. You'd have to stop, stand still and let it refresh or feed your pet to refill it's stam. Otherwise the mount would just walk and not run.

People in Trammel complained about it so they removed it. Hypothetically... a tamer gets and advantage because better pets = more stam so you could run longer (also faction warhorses were beefed up to have more stam too.)

No endless chasing (I've ran some marathons chasing players like Krystal from luna to Umbra then back to luna... no way in hell that would of happened if they had mount stam in.)


lastly... I doubt they could put it back in cause they'd need to address animal form, which I'm not sure that they can.

I would leave the stamina as it is, and propose this:

Etherals and Chargers of Fallen run slower than real mounts.

If you have the luxury of taking a mount out of your backpack, and have it fall back into your pack if dismounted, then it shouldn't be as fast as someone who is running the risk of being dismounted and having their mount killed, leaving them stranded.

Should the real mount be 10% faster? 20%? You would eventually catch up to the rider... now we have a new issue with gargoyles flying. They will want the speed increase too, so to correct this, maybe make mount speed increase based on focus of the rider as well.

Real mount = 10% speed increase.
Focus Skill = 1% increase per 10 points invested ( JOAT doesn't apply ).

Sound feasible?

 

[Draxous]

I would leave the stamina as it is, and propose this:

Etherals and Chargers of Fallen run slower than real mounts.

If you have the luxury of taking a mount out of your backpack, and have it fall back into your pack if dismounted, then it shouldn't be as fast as someone who is running the risk of being dismounted and having their mount killed, leaving them stranded.

Should the real mount be 10% faster? 20%? You would eventually catch up to the rider... now we have a new issue with gargoyles flying. They will want the speed increase too, so to correct this, maybe make mount speed increase based on focus of the rider as well.

Real mount = 10% speed increase.
Focus Skill = 1% increase per 10 points invested ( JOAT doesn't apply ).

Sound feasible?

Because of pet bonding... it doesn't sound feasible.

Not to mention factions warhorses would be an unfair advantage too. Any advantages factions give have to be minimal compared to their counterparts.

I'd be all for removing pet bonding from siege (and having our tamed pets fully trained when tamed instead.) But I don't see that happening and with the number of tamers we have... I really don't see that happening.

Doubt anything will or can be done about this...

 

[nightstalker22]

Because of pet bonding... it doesn't sound feasible.

Not to mention factions warhorses would be an unfair advantage too. Any advantages factions give have to be minimal compared to their counterparts.

I'd be all for removing pet bonding from siege (and having our tamed pets fully trained when tamed instead.) But I don't see that happening and with the number of tamers we have... I really don't see that happening.

Doubt anything will or can be done about this...

I dont see how bonding has anything to do with mount speed, you still cant ride a ghost of the mount without taking the time to apply a bandage. Make it so the mount cannot be ridden again until fully healed from rez, not one bandage and hop on when it has 5% life. By the time the rider has the time to get the pet rezzed and healed, which would be nearly impossible if being attacked in PvP, they should be dead.

I agree about pet bonding though, it lessens the value of the taming skill, as the animals are not consumables that need to be replaced... they dont even deteriorate like weapons do.

 

[Draxous]

I dont see how bonding has anything to do with mount speed, you still cant ride a ghost of the mount without taking the time to apply a bandage. Make it so the mount cannot be ridden again until fully healed from rez, not one bandage and hop on when it has 5% life. By the time the rider has the time to get the pet rezzed and healed, which would be nearly impossible if being attacked in PvP, they should be dead.

I agree about pet bonding though, it lessens the value of the taming skill, as the animals are not consumables that need to be replaced... they dont even deteriorate like weapons do.

Before you continue... you're request is getting more and more complicated meaning I doubt we could even ask for it.

Why would someone ride an ethy unless they were a ninja... and then, why would they if they can pop in animal form and run full speed?

Factioners will have an unfair advantage because they will be able to res their horses with 0 vet.

Non-factioners will be griefed. especially with how easy it is to not only dismount, but kill a regular mount. So after that happens, they get stuck in 'disadvantage mode' which isn't fair.

my 2 cents

 

[nightstalker22]

Before you continue... you're request is getting more and more complicated meaning I doubt we could even ask for it.

Why would someone ride an ethy unless they were a ninja... and then, why would they if they can pop in animal form and run full speed?

Factioners will have an unfair advantage because they will be able to res their horses with 0 vet.

Non-factioners will be griefed. especially with how easy it is to not only dismount, but kill a regular mount. So after that happens, they get stuck in 'disadvantage mode' which isn't fair.

my 2 cents

Okay, your arguments seem valid enough, so I have come up with yet another solution!

All mounts and flying gargoyles will have a speed boost option that can be bound to a key, like nitro!

The "nitro" will replenish the same as stamina and mana, so management will be key in manuvering.

You can hold down the key and use it all at once, or press the key as long as you wish to use a portion of it, with a 3 second cool down before it can be pressed again.

Would you agree to this super awesome fabulous idea?

Edit:

Ostard form with ninjitsu should get this bonus too, but only ostard form as it doesn't have any other benefit besides mounted speed, and road runners are supposed to be fast!

Keep in mind that the ostard IS subject to stamina loss, unlike a mount, and is at a severe disadvantage already, unable to cast spells or use special moves.

 

[N49ATV]

We dont need to make people faster. If we had a nitrous button, we would just have more speedhacking. Turn it up run away, turn it back down....

Player A "Your speedhacking"
Player B "Nah bro, just on spray"