The Real Problem With Cheating in PvP

[Llewen]

Disclaimer: This is not intended to be a discussion of ways to cheat in UO, nor is it intended to accuse any specific person or persons of cheating. This is simply an observation based on hundreds, if not thousands of hours of pvp experience. Furthermore I think it is something that it is important that the devs understand as it appears that they might finally be possibly taking the issue of cheating in pvp seriously, and as such, I think it needs to be discussed.

People are always complaining about "speeding" in pvp. Well I use the enhanced client, and one of the nice things about the enhanced client is that it isn't as affected by lag as the classic client. Even with some lag in the enhanced client you will still move at top speed. Now when lag becomes more severe you will be affected by it, but it has to be pretty bad before you will be.

I have yet to see anyone in the six months since I came back that moves faster than I do when I am not affected by lag in the enhanced client. Let me repeat that. I have yet to see any character that moves faster than I do with the enhanced client since I came back. I've seen plenty that moved just as fast as I do, but none that moved faster.

In other words, "speeding" isn't the real problem with cheating in pvp in UO.

The real problem with cheating in pvp in UO isn't "speeding" as far as I am concerned, the real problem are all those "amazing" pvp'rs who miraculously manage to drink a cure pot the instant they are poisoned, or never fail to drink a heal pot the instant they reach half health. The real problem with cheating in pvp isn't "speeding" it is the ****** health scripts.

And frankly I think that those that are using them would rather we and the devs focussed all our attention on what in my opinion, is a fairly mythical "speeding" problem.

/discuss and please keep this civil - I think this is an important discussion that needs to take place and I would rather this thread didn't get locked in record time...

 

[hawkeye_pike]

The real problem with cheating in pvp in UO isn't "speeding" as far as I am concerned, the real problem are all those "amazing" pvp'rs who miraculously manage to drink a cure pot the instant they are poisoned, or never fail to drink a heal pot the instant they reach half health. The real problem with cheating in pvp isn't "speeding" it is the ****** health scripts.

I have to agree about that. I don't think that the EC gives you so much of an advantage (movement just looks smoother), but I don't see speed hackers very often in UO either.

However, I see potion-chugging scripts all the time, and even among roleplayers in Trammel it is common practice. It makes the poisoning skill absolutely worthless (those guys really carry 100 greater cure around), and gives an unfair advantage in PvP. People literally insta-cure even in the tightest combat situation, where every skilled player would have at least 2 seconds delay.

The problem is the use and abuse of external programs in general. Prevent potion scripts, and the next helper tool will be just around the corner. I think external helper programs should be prevented in general. However, this may be difficult as long as the medieval Classic Client is still around.

 

[PowerFullPete]

I have seen plenty of people move faster that me using EC, all running speed hacks.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

However, I see potion-chugging scripts all the time, and even among roleplayers in Trammel it is common practice.

Nice try, I guess.

But having roleplayed across 3 shards: No.

If this is common among us, we hide it awfully well.

-Galen's player

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Disclaimer: This is not intended to be a discussion of ways to cheat in UO, nor is it intended to accuse any specific person or persons of cheating. This is simply an observation based on hundreds, if not thousands of hours of pvp experience. Furthermore I think it is something that it is important that the devs understand as it appears that they might finally be possibly taking the issue of cheating in pvp seriously, and as such, I think it needs to be discussed.

People are always complaining about "speeding" in pvp. Well I use the enhanced client, and one of the nice things about the enhanced client is that it isn't as affected by lag as the classic client. Even with some lag in the enhanced client you will still move at top speed. Now when lag becomes more severe you will be affected by it, but it has to be pretty bad before you will be.

I have yet to see anyone in the six months since I came back that moves faster than I do when I am not affected by lag in the enhanced client. Let me repeat that. I have yet to see any character that moves faster than I do with the enhanced client since I came back. I've seen plenty that moved just as fast as I do, but none that moved faster.

In other words, "speeding" isn't the real problem with cheating in pvp in UO.

The real problem with cheating in pvp in UO isn't "speeding" as far as I am concerned, the real problem are all those "amazing" pvp'rs who miraculously manage to drink a cure pot the instant they are poisoned, or never fail to drink a heal pot the instant they reach half health. The real problem with cheating in pvp isn't "speeding" it is the ****** health scripts.

And frankly I think that those that are using them would rather we and the devs focussed all our attention on what in my opinion, is a fairly mythical "speeding" problem.

/discuss and please keep this civil - I think this is an important discussion that needs to take place and I would rather this thread didn't get locked in record time...

I disagree with you about chugging being a huge issue. Logitech MX revolutions mouse combined with UOA allows me to use my thumb to cure pot, heal pot, refresh, box, and apple. My thumb is ALWAYS within 1/4 inch of ALL of those functions, so I can be *ready* for a cure the moment I see the other player casting poison...I can apple at a moments notice...and I can box myself pretty darned good too. I will happily demonstrate for you too, and take SS with full taskbar to prove I am not cheating.

You could use a good reality check to the real issues with PvP...people chugging really is not one of them. I suggest you look up that mouse I mentioned and look at others too. Intended functionality is a long way off from cheating.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Let me tell you how your fellow PvPers are likely to respond, on the basis of how they have responded to me when I raised the same issue: The 3rd party programs don't let you do anything that the game doesn't let you do, whereas the speed-hack does..

Now frankly I think the first part of that sentence is disingenuous at best. But if they respond to you the same way they have responded to me, that's what they're going to say.

I'm starting to wonder if the Producer isn't using "speed-hack" as a kind of short hand or slang for cheating in general.....At least one of the speed-hacks is based on processor speed, and indeed there was a discussion, rather heated, about whether or not the most prominent program that manipulates processor speed was even illegal to use in UO. EA eventually told us it was, because it, they stated, did more than mess with your processor speed. It also interacted with the client and the data stream. (They said.)

So if the speed-hack fix involves shutting down that particular 3rd party program, maybe they are targeting others as well?

If nothing else, if speed-hack is fixed, maybe it'll make other forms of cheating more obvious.

-Galen's player

 

[WarUltima]

I have never used external programs to PvP. Well I dont know if UOAssist counts. But to see my life bar drop to certain point and hit a key to chug a gheal is like an instant reflect. As for gcures... you cant even chug one if you are not poisoned and they do not have a cooldown. So a lot of times I hit the gcure bottom a few times and then hit the heal pot.

While I am aware there are indeed problems in PvP (and I pity those who rely on those programs in order to compete) some people can do just that legit that the less skilled player refer to as hack or cheat.

It's like archer players trying to play a mage and many of them automatically accused anyone that can cast faster than they do "hacker" or "script caster".

And dont get me wrong these craps DO EXIST and I have seem them happening on daily basis when I am fighting my enemies. Like instant tbox noob cheese and finding orange character afking in one of their 8 houses and I cast a poison field inside and his character just sit in my field chaining down cure pots as fast as the game allows while bandaging and re-bandaging nonstop for hmm good 15 minutes straight (and ran out all of his gcure but I wasnt a nox mage unfortunately) until all of a sudden he came back and said "you hacker, stop casting field into my house or I will be forced to page you".

 

[Llewen]

Logitech MX revolutions mouse combined with UOA allows me to use my thumb to cure pot, heal pot, refresh, box, and apple. My thumb is ALWAYS within 1/4 inch of ALL of those functions, so I can be *ready* for a cure the moment I see the other player casting poison...I can apple at a moments notice...and I can box myself pretty darned good too. I will happily demonstrate for you too, and take SS with full taskbar to prove I am not cheating.

I have never used external programs to PvP. Well I dont know if UOAssist counts. But to see my life bar drop to certain point and hit a key to chug a gheal is like an instant reflect. As for gcures... you cant even chug one if you are not poisoned and they do not have a cooldown. So a lot of times I hit the gcure bottom a few times and then hit the heal pot.

Well that's the real problem with cheating isn't it? Especially a completely unchecked cheating epidemic like that present in UO, you never really know who is truly skilled, and who is cheating. And the truly skilled players invariably get unfairly lumped in with the cheaters. In my opinion that is the absolute worst thing about cheating, it often leads to those that are truly skilled not getting the recognition and respect they justly deserve.

 

[UOKaiser]

I'll offer my thoughts on this.
The delay between the script noticing the player of getting poison compared to a person just looking at the spell being cast and hitting the hot key when the spell being cast are huge in terms of timing. If someone is running a pot script to pvp they are going to be in trouble. Theres always a delay by the time the script recognize the character is poison to counter act the effect. I assume it's even worse if the script is set up to notice when a player cast the spell which would be highly inaccurate as the mage can cast then or cast at another time also other poison abilities using other methods require split second timing and adjustability for every situation. Pre-program scrips doesn't allow for such on fly actions. I guess a mediocre player can use them to keep up but they will only help against other mediocre or poor players. Any body with enough experience can take down any assisted player as they are doing things in dumb down mode.
Orange petals are always used which last 5 minutes to keep any smaller poisons away. The deadly poisons is always better to use a a hot key programmed into a gaming mouse or wheel. One spin of the wheel up or down assign to drink cure in uoassist will always settle all a players poison problems. Better use with expensive gaming mouses which have multiple hot keys. A cheap gaming mouse now days work just as well. Players shouldn't be using 2 button mouses with one wheel these days if they are interested in gaming especially competing.

 

[Capt.E]

Movement speed is an issue. Balance between the EC and CC should be the same. For that matter, movement should be equal no matter the case.

3rd party apps are another issue that should be looked at. I can't count the number of times I have missed a bandie or a cure pot. There are certain groups that don't miss though. Even the elite players miss or mistime things. I have even seen people casting and curing-healing at the same time. It's not impossible I admit, but personally my brain doesn't function like that. Don't say you are "elite" or whatever. These are times when someone is group dumping and my mare will hit for 60. They mid-flamestrike hit pots.

To get back to the point though, I would say the biggest advantage in PVP is a combination of bugs and movement speed. These are the players that are not using the same stock car so to say. My 2 gp's.

E

 

[Llewen]

The delay between the script noticing the player of getting poison compared to a person just looking at the spell being cast and hitting the hot key when the spell being cast are huge in terms of timing.

While I don't have any direct experience with scripting in UO, and I don't want to get into the technicalities, everything I've ever heard or read, and from what I have seen when I have seen scripts being used, and known they were being used, scripts work far faster than a typical human player can. In UO from what I understand they are getting their trigger information directly from the server packets, they don't need to wait for messages to show up on the screen before they react.

 

[Capt.E]

Movement speed is an issue. Balance between the EC and CC should be the same. For that matter, movement should be equal no matter the case.

3rd party apps are another issue that should be looked at. I can't count the number of times I have missed a bandie or a cure pot. There are certain groups that don't miss though. Even the elite players miss or mistime things. I have even seen people casting and curing-healing at the same time. It's not impossible I admit, but personally my brain doesn't function like that. Don't say you are "elite" or whatever. These are times when someone is group dumping and my mare will hit for 60. They mid-flamestrike hit pots.

To get back to the point though, I would say the biggest advantage in PVP is a combination of bugs and movement speed. These are the players that are not using the same stock car so to say. My 2 gp's.

E

 

[Cetric]

I'll use the enhanced client when i can legitamately pvp as a mage on it. Mouse wheel targeting is slow as hell, causes overcasting like crazy, even jsut chaining fireballs or weaken, harm, anything.

not using the mouse wheel as the target is fine, so i know its not something else.

 

[Llewen]

Movement speed is an issue. Balance between the EC and CC should be the same.

While I completely agree with that, that isn't the issue the op is focused on.

 

[UOKaiser]

While I don't have any direct experience with scripting in UO, and I don't want to get into the technicalities, everything I've ever heard or read, and from what I have seen when I have seen scripts being used, and known they were being used, scripts work far faster than a typical human player can. In UO from what I understand they are getting their trigger information directly from the server packets, they don't need to wait for messages to show up on the screen before they react.

As I believe it it is from memory address and not packets. Gonna to look into it to make sure but thats how it is that i've being aware of this past decade. That thing doesn't send packets back it sends instructions to client. True a packet program would be faster than a human but this program goes through memory thats why it's not easily detectable which has being what Ive being told. You can try it for yourself in freeshards that allow it so you can get familiar with the limits another player would have if they tried to use it then compare it's speed to a hotkey on a wheel. Those addicted to pvp I can picture behind the computer mashing buttons like insane jackels and when getting killed destroying the nearest component which sometimes = a poor cat. I assume they go through cat's and mices alot lol.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

While I don't have any direct experience with scripting in UO, and I don't want to get into the technicalities, everything I've ever heard or read, and from what I have seen when I have seen scripts being used, and known they were being used, scripts work far faster than a typical human player can. In UO from what I understand they are getting their trigger information directly from the server packets, they don't need to wait for messages to show up on the screen before they react.

Are you certain of this? I am ready to hit the cure key the moment the person casts poison. My thumb only needs move about 2mm to chug a cure.

Now just the other day I was doing an event on atl...and two of the people there who got killed (pvp event) were complaining of cheating on our part. The ironic bit about the whole thing was that our entire group participating are HUGELY against cheating...yet here we were being called cheats.

Guess all I can ask is that you are careful about who you lump into this group of cheaters. Half of the misconceptions over cheating honestly come from uninformed posters just like yourself who think they know whats going on. Perhaps you should spend more time asking questions about WHAT really is an issue, instead of coming here with a rant.

 

[Divster]

While I don't have any direct experience with scripting in UO, and I don't want to get into the technicalities, everything I've ever heard or read, and from what I have seen when I have seen scripts being used, and known they were being used, scripts work far faster than a typical human player can

Yep nothing like reading "something" or hearing "something" and then assuming everyone who is quick on the draw is scripting eh? Someguy in the pub yesterday told me elephants are planning a mass attack on the moon, got my telescope ready fpr that sight as it must be true!

 

[Ezekiel Zane]

While I don't have any direct experience with scripting in UO, and I don't want to get into the technicalities, everything I've ever heard or read, and from what I have seen when I have seen scripts being used, and known they were being used, scripts work far faster than a typical human player can. In UO from what I understand they are getting their trigger information directly from the server packets, they don't need to wait for messages to show up on the screen before they react.

The heal scripts triggers come from your status bar. They react when the variables used to display your stats change. That sounds to me like the scripts can only trigger after the effect is on you not before. Skilled players in both PvP and PvM react near instantaneously to curses and poisons. Just because one guy is faster than another doesn't mean that now you have proof he's using scripts.

 

[Llewen]

Are you certain of this? I am ready to hit the cure key the moment the person casts poison. My thumb only needs move about 2mm to chug a cure.

The heal scripts triggers come from your status bar. They react when the variables used to display your stats change. That sounds to me like the scripts can only trigger after the effect is on you not before. Skilled players in both PvP and PvM react near instantaneously to curses and poisons.

Scripts can do all kinds of things. They can read a poison spell cast message and start a loop chugging pots, which means they anticipate the poison just like a good pvp'r would do (I'm not saying there are scripts that do this, I'm just saying I know something about coding and this would certainly be possible).

Not only that, but a typical human has something like a 200ms lapse between the time information is received from a sense, such as the eye, or ear, and the time the information is processed. On a typical computer a script doesn't have a delay anything like that.

And script isn't acting in response to the information displayed in the client. It is acting in response to the information either in the packet, or in the memory (and I believe that UOKaiser was right about this, I think it is from the memory).

But either way the script actually starts acting on that information before or at the same time as it is displayed on the screen. In other words the script is acting on the information in the memory before the player sees it, and certainly before the player has processed that information.

Guess all I can ask is that you are careful about who you lump into this group of cheaters. Half of the misconceptions over cheating honestly come from uninformed posters just like yourself who think they know whats going on. Perhaps you should spend more time asking questions about WHAT really is an issue, instead of coming here with a rant.

I actually have been around UO in one form or another since '97, with breaks. I have been active in the Half-Life anti-cheat community, and I have run my own Half-Life servers for years. I have some idea of what is possible with cheats, and how they can be combated. I don't know everything, and I am learning all the time, but I'm not some fresh faced newbie who has yet to make it around the block, and I don't see anything in my op that qualifies it as a "rant".

I think this is a serious issue, and I think it should be discussed, and I am no less convinced after reading the responses to this thread that "healing scripts", and scripts in general are more of a problem in pvp at this time than "speeding".

 

[Cardell]

The real problem with cheating in pvp in UO isn't "speeding" as far as I am concerned, the real problem are all those "amazing" pvp'rs who miraculously manage to drink a cure pot the instant they are poisoned, or never fail to drink a heal pot the instant they reach half health. The real problem with cheating in pvp isn't "speeding" it is the ****** health scripts.

I have 15 buttons on my mouse. 6 of them are for pots. If there is one thing I'm good at its chugging pots. Especially now-a-days you need the quick heals with all the AK-47 Bows ppl are rolling around with. For the folks that I've played with for 10+ years, I see them get accused a lot of what you are saying. I have to go ahead and disagree with you. I've been pvping in this game for 11 years and I don't need help chugging pots... The button is 1/4 of an inch from my thumb at all times.

I don't know man, If you ask me, When it comes to judging people by their pot usage,,,, Witch hunts are so 1692... Lets not be ridiculous.

The real problem is still what it was for the last few years... not fast ppl, or pots,,, Its who can run over what items in game that normal users cannot... i.e. candelabras, globes, etc.. No mistaking that ****..

 

[Malimus]

Ive just recently started playing with scripts and script programs on Test Center to see just how much of an advantage they hold and educational purposes. I have no intentions whatsoever to start using these crutches on prodo shards FYI.

Let me tell you... Anyone using these does have a very large advantage. Especially coupled with a speedhack. All you really have to do with this crap running in the background is worry about running around and getting specials off. Everything els is basically taken care of by scripts. This is a MAJOR advantage in PvP. Anyone trying to say its not either has no idea or just wants others to believe scripts/speeder are not that big of a problem.

As for the comment on how so many people after being killed try to cry about there killers using speeders and scripts. Well... think about it... Its pretty damn hard not to cry wolf when all you see these days are in fact wolves... If ya know what i mean.

EA/Mythic needs a fix and if not that they need to make this sorta thing available for the masses and not illegal. Either way something needs to be done. Scripters/speeders have effectively killed pvp for the people that actually do have skill and get no recognitions/**** on.

What happens when someone doesn't want to have to cheat to compete yet still gets called a cheater even tho they take pride in not cheating? Ill tell you. They turn trammie, quit playing, or join the losers using this stuff. I would say very few people actually participate in PvP these days without having to cheat or being in a large guild with many people that do. The majority does in some shape or form. You know who you are.

I gotta give props to those that refuse to use this garbage and continue to fight it out legit. You are the true skilled players. Or at least you have some Honor.

But hey this is just my 2 gp's based off of my experience/time played.

 

[Cardell]

Nice try, I guess.

But having roleplayed across 3 shards: No.

If this is common among us, we hide it awfully well.

-Galen's player

I see scripted farming more in tram than I do in fel. Whether its RP or just normal Tram or Fel folk, who knows,... But its just as common pvm as it is in pvp... especially since yall can recall in and out of your dungeons to drop gold...

And I have seen RPers do it as well.. I'm not gonna say its a common practice, that would be a pretty ****ty generalization but I have seen it on more than 1 occasion with out a doubt.

 

[Llewen]

Ive just recently started playing with scripts and script programs on Test Center to see just how much of an advantage they hold and educational purposes. I have no intentions whatsoever to start using these crutches on prodo shards FYI.

Let me tell you... Anyone using these does have a very large advantage. Especially coupled with a speedhack. All you really have to do with this crap running in the background is worry about running around and getting specials off. Everything els is basically taken care of by scripts. This is a MAJOR advantage in PvP. Anyone trying to say its not either has no idea or just wants others to believe scripts/speeder are not that big of a problem.

Exactly, and what people don't get is, a well crafted script never makes a mistake. It doesn't get distracted trying to heal a buddy, or looting a corpse. Not only are they faster than normal humans can be, no matter what anyone in this thread says, but they don't make mistakes, they can provide a huge, and decisive advantage.

In the six months since I came back I haven't seen anyone that I could definitely say was using a speedhack. As I said, the only times I have ever been outrun with the enhanced client were when I clearly was having lag issues. But I have some pretty strong opinions on who exactly is running healing scripts, and I don't think I'm all that far off base.

Again, just my opinion, but it's an opinion based on a lot of experience and some research, as well as a fair bit of anecdotal evidence, scripting in pvp is a far bigger problem right now than speeding.

 

[jbfortune]

I find it amazing that even though everyone thinks cheating is rampant in the game, no one on stratics does it!

What a strange coincidence. Everyone seems to know a lot about it mind, of course this is just because of the "research" they do.

 

[Llewen]

I find it amazing that even though everyone thinks cheating is rampant in the game, no one on stratics does it!

What a strange coincidence. Everyone seems to know a lot about it mind, of course this is just because of the "research" they do.

I'm not accusing anyone in this thread of anything, I just want to make that clear, but cheating is a form of lying, and just like there are some who are very good at cheating, there are some who are very good at lying. Very few who cheat are going to admit the truth in a Stratics post, and even those that do, are very likely using that admission to cover up something that they consider to be far worse.

It's human nature I'm afraid. But as I said, I am not accusing anyone on Stratics, or anyone who has posted in this thread of anything.

For myself I've never even downloaded, much less installed "that program which shall not be named", but I do have some idea of what is possible with scripting in part because I've done some coding and scripting for other purposes, and in part because I've done some research into other Windows scripting engines dating back to a time when it appeared that it was legal to run scripts in another MMO I play.

You could do some amazing things with those scripting engines, and they were not tailored to a specific app the way "that program which shall not be named" is, and weren't as powerful or flexible as a result, again from what I understand. And I have done a little rooting around without downloading or installing anything where that is concerned, just so I would have some idea what I was talking about.

 

[Malimus]

I find it amazing that even though everyone thinks cheating is rampant in the game, no one on stratics does it!

What a strange coincidence. Everyone seems to know a lot about it mind, of course this is just because of the "research" they do.

lol... Of course no one on stratics says they use this crap. Does anyone usually openly admit to scripting/speeders/cheats? No. Your response has no relevance Sir. I know plenty of people that post here that i see in game and no doubt about it they use this crap. The fact you cant say names and whatnot here on stratics puts a quick stop to knowing who is doing what, who is telling the truth and who isn't.

You cant really prove anything about anyone here anyway because like i said. Who openly admits to these things anywhere other than to the people they roll with. And if you do have facts to back an accusation it still doesn't matter cause they will deny it anyway and the post will get deleted.

 

[jbfortune]

I'm not accusing anyone in this thread of anything, I just want to make that clear, but cheating is a form of lying, and just like there are some who are very good at cheating, there are some who are very good at lying. Very few who cheat are going to admit the truth in a Stratics post, and even those that do, are very likely using that admission to cover up something that they consider to be far worse.

It's human nature I'm afraid. But as I said, I am not accusing anyone on Stratics, or anyone who has posted in this thread of anything.

For myself I've never even downloaded, much less installed "that program which shall not be named", but I do have some idea of what is possible with scripting in part because I've done some coding and scripting for other purposes, and in part because I've done some research into other Windows scripting engines dating back to a time when it appeared that it was legal to run scripts in another MMO I play.

You could do some amazing things with those scripting engines, and they were not tailored to a specific app the way "that program which shall not be named" is, and weren't as powerful or flexible as a result, again from what I understand. And I have done a little rooting around without downloading or installing anything where that is concerned, just so I would have some idea what I was talking about.

I actually wrote my post before I had seen yours when you used the word research, so was not accusing you directly!

I agree people are unlikely to admit it in here, but thats my point. No doubt lots of the people moaning about cheating do it themselves. Maybe other people just cheat better than them and they don't like it? Who knows.

They should just allow scripts, would make everything much easier. Level the playing field at least.

 

[Izzy MBC]

I find it amazing that even though everyone thinks cheating is rampant in the game, no one on stratics does it!

What a strange coincidence. Everyone seems to know a lot about it mind, of course this is just because of the "research" they do.

By sharing this observation, he is covertly covering his own ass; dettracting attention from himself of being suspect to the aforementioned cheating by highlighting his "apparent" adverse stance to it.

And now I'm just saying this to cover my own ass. *Hugs jbfortune*

 

[jbfortune]

By sharing this observation, he is covertly covering his own ass; dettracting attention from himself of being suspect to the aforementioned cheating by highlighting his "apparent" adverse stance to it.

And now I'm just saying this to cover my own ass. *Hugs jbfortune*

Its a horrible circle!

 

[puni666]

Are you certain of this? I am ready to hit the cure key the moment the person casts poison. My thumb only needs move about 2mm to chug a cure.

Now just the other day I was doing an event on atl...and two of the people there who got killed (pvp event) were complaining of cheating on our part. The ironic bit about the whole thing was that our entire group participating are HUGELY against cheating...yet here we were being called cheats.

Guess all I can ask is that you are careful about who you lump into this group of cheaters. Half of the misconceptions over cheating honestly come from uninformed posters just like yourself who think they know whats going on. Perhaps you should spend more time asking questions about WHAT really is an issue, instead of coming here with a rant.

I agree with this guy. A lot of people just don't understand many different parts of the game. And curing instantly isn't some sort of well timed script. Set your cure macro to a key on the keyboard and have the repeat setting of your keyboard set to the max speed it can go... it'll just spam cure if you hold it down... it's not rocket science.

 

[Capt.E]

how does that work if you are casting?? You should lose your target cursor??

There is a delay between pots as well, so your heal pot would be impossible.

 

[WarUltima]

Ive just recently started playing with scripts and script programs on Test Center to see just how much of an advantage they hold and educational purposes. I have no intentions whatsoever to start using these crutches on prodo shards FYI.

Let me tell you... Anyone using these does have a very large advantage. Especially coupled with a speedhack. All you really have to do with this crap running in the background is worry about running around and getting specials off. Everything els is basically taken care of by scripts. This is a MAJOR advantage in PvP. Anyone trying to say its not either has no idea or just wants others to believe scripts/speeder are not that big of a problem.

Exactly, and what people don't get is, a well crafted script never makes a mistake. It doesn't get distracted trying to heal a buddy, or looting a corpse. Not only are they faster than normal humans can be, no matter what anyone in this thread says, but they don't make mistakes, they can provide a huge, and decisive advantage.

In the six months since I came back I haven't seen anyone that I could definitely say was using a speedhack. As I said, the only times I have ever been outrun with the enhanced client were when I clearly was having lag issues. But I have some pretty strong opinions on who exactly is running healing scripts, and I don't think I'm all that far off base.

Again, just my opinion, but it's an opinion based on a lot of experience and some research, as well as a fair bit of anecdotal evidence, scripting in pvp is a far bigger problem right now than speeding.

What you are saying is not entirely true. Those "PvP scripts" benefits dexers and archers far greater than mages. Can you even imaging if you are playing a mage and script kept on messing up your target cursor? (a cast spell in hand gets canceled if you try to chug). This leads to another discussion why are these sorry ass PvP script benefits dexers wayyyyyyyyyyy more than mages? Which also leads to the reason why the learning curve is so steep for a dexer to play mage effectively in PvP.

Anyways, I want to chug my own pots, cast my own spells, tbox when I see fit. People will do anything to win nowadays.

 

[popps]

The real problem with cheating in pvp in UO isn't "speeding" as far as I am concerned, the real problem are all those "amazing" pvp'rs who miraculously manage to drink a cure pot the instant they are poisoned, or never fail to drink a heal pot the instant they reach half health. The real problem with cheating in pvp isn't "speeding" it is the ****** health scripts.

I am not sure faster speed lays on the EC client only.......

Otherwise, there would not be hacks out there for speeding in UO....
Not to mention, those hacks which allow to pass through trees and blocking items for others.......

Still, I do am convinced that scripting IS also a huge problem in PvP.

Therefore, a fix to PvP which only addressed hacks would not alone be able to help PvP in UO.

Scripting in the game ALSO needs to be addressed and stopped for good, IMHO.

 

[popps]

I have 15 buttons on my mouse.

What mouse carries 15 buttons on it ?

That is on top of the wheel and the left/right ones ?

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

As I believe it it is from memory address and not packets. Gonna to look into it to make sure but thats how it is that i've being aware of this past decade. That thing doesn't send packets back it sends instructions to client. True a packet program would be faster than a human but this program goes through memory thats why it's not easily detectable which has being what Ive being told. You can try it for yourself in freeshards that allow it so you can get familiar with the limits another player would have if they tried to use it then compare it's speed to a hotkey on a wheel. Those addicted to pvp I can picture behind the computer mashing buttons like insane jackels and when getting killed destroying the nearest component which sometimes = a poor cat. I assume they go through cat's and mices alot lol.

I am fairly sure you are correct as to how it works. Lets assume option 1 for a moment first, option 1 is that it manipulates the memory which makes it harder to detect but reads the packets (completely undetectable) which as you stated is far faster than a human as it proccesses before the client even does.

But option 2 is as you stated it and as i believe it to be, memory proccessing. But even in option two (assuming the right person was writing this) the memory read would still happen before the human could know what had happened let alone proccess it and react. You press a button on your screen and before you even see what has happend your computer has proccessed it in memory and sent the packet now you see the spell casting and the other person recieves the packet, before that person can see it happen the client has to proccess (in the memory) at which point the script could see it, then the client proccesses it and send the information to your screen for you to see. As you can see the client memory proccesses everything before you can even see it happening, this is enough to speculate that a script could read this before the computer hits the next proccess (the part where it send it to the screen) and be able to react in x time knowing that it can not react before it has happened. Also this also works not only with the words from the spells but the spells themself so with proper timing by a script or program it could in fact react the moment it happens where as EVERY HUMAN has to proccess the information and then react (normal reaction time for a human is half a second if they train, other wise its 1-3 seconds when they have to think about what to do) so instant vs half a second....hard to really tell but still its possible.

I am not saying everyone cheats, not even suggesting most people cheat just saying no way to really tell the difference between a good programer and a skilled player (altho both require quite a bit of skill....still cheating should be shuned )

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

I am not sure faster speed lays on the EC client only.......

Otherwise, there would not be hacks out there for speeding in UO....
Not to mention, those hacks which allow to pass through trees and blocking items for others.......

Still, I do am convinced that scripting IS also a huge problem in PvP.

Therefore, a fix to PvP which only addressed hacks would not alone be able to help PvP in UO.

Scripting in the game ALSO needs to be addressed and stopped for good, IMHO.

Didn't read your post before so sorry about the double post, but....it doesnt really require a hack to pass through trees and other "blocking" items, this only has to do with the fact that the client files are available for people to edit. Scripting is more "hacking" than the kind of editing you are talking about, altho cheating is cheating I do not really see a way for them to permanently fix this issue.

 

[UOKaiser]

I am fairly sure you are correct as to how it works. Lets assume option 1 for a moment first, option 1 is that it manipulates the memory which makes it harder to detect but reads the packets (completely undetectable) which as you stated is far faster than a human as it proccesses before the client even does.

But option 2 is as you stated it and as i believe it to be, memory proccessing. But even in option two (assuming the right person was writing this) the memory read would still happen before the human could know what had happened let alone proccess it and react. You press a button on your screen and before you even see what has happend your computer has proccessed it in memory and sent the packet now you see the spell casting and the other person recieves the packet, before that person can see it happen the client has to proccess (in the memory) at which point the script could see it, then the client proccesses it and send the information to your screen for you to see. As you can see the client memory proccesses everything before you can even see it happening, this is enough to speculate that a script could read this before the computer hits the next proccess (the part where it send it to the screen) and be able to react in x time knowing that it can not react before it has happened. Also this also works not only with the words from the spells but the spells themself so with proper timing by a script or program it could in fact react the moment it happens where as EVERY HUMAN has to proccess the information and then react (normal reaction time for a human is half a second if they train, other wise its 1-3 seconds when they have to think about what to do) so instant vs half a second....hard to really tell but still its possible.

I am not saying everyone cheats, not even suggesting most people cheat just saying no way to really tell the difference between a good programer and a skilled player (altho both require quite a bit of skill....still cheating should be shuned )

Indeed. Though the way the program we speak about don't work that well itself. it has it's limitations also has to adhere to timing of the client. Though it looks to me as soon as the client recognize the packet we see what happens and is written to memory then the other program grabs it from there and send sit back to the client through memory. If it was effective to read before the instructions got to the human eyes other scripts will be using such a feature than being limited to the timing in the client like now. Though for a fact this part I know. In pvp you fighting a dynamic human opponent that can fool a script that reads the journal or words by simply having a word in front of it. And the dynamic opponent can easily cancel his spell before casting making the program go to automatic cure and wasting time. The dynamic person can also hit with both poison and damage and poison again confusing the script into using a cure and when the heal pops in it will be blocked by the poison. The disadvantage of the scripts are major and will only work fine in a mid and lower lower pvm or against a inexperience pvp player. Theres way to many variables that can happen moment to moment with another person while the script is preprogram and doesn't have the capacity of a artificial intelligence like the computer from war games or enterprise lol. As you can't program a script on the fly you have to rely on your own skills or leave it to a script to make mistakes. Hot key beats script anyday you can cancel or not use the hot key if you thing it's a trick. It takes a instant by the time someone actualy cast anything on you or you need any potion to just role that mouse wheel up.

 

[AesSedai]

Didn't read your post before so sorry about the double post, but....it doesnt really require a hack to pass through trees and other "blocking" items, this only has to do with the fact that the client files are available for people to edit. Scripting is more "hacking" than the kind of editing you are talking about, altho cheating is cheating I do not really see a way for them to permanently fix this issue.

- They could do a file check and mark and/or disallow an account from logging on if they have edited the files in an illegal manner.

 

[AesSedai]

- The real problem with cheating in UO is that it dissuades legit people from participating, playing, and most importantly paying...

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Indeed. Though the way the program we speak about don't work that well itself. it has it's limitations also has to adhere to timing of the client. Though it looks to me as soon as the client recognize the packet we see what happens and is written to memory then the other program grabs it from there and send sit back to the client through memory. If it was effective to read before the instructions got to the human eyes other scripts will be using such a feature than being limited to the timing in the client like now. Though for a fact this part I know. In pvp you fighting a dynamic human opponent that can fool a script that reads the journal or words by simply having a word in front of it. And the dynamic opponent can easily cancel his spell before casting making the program go to automatic cure and wasting time. The dynamic person can also hit with both poison and damage and poison again confusing the script into using a cure and when the heal pops in it will be blocked by the poison. The disadvantage of the scripts are major and will only work fine in a mid and lower lower pvm or against a inexperience pvp player. Theres way to many variables that can happen moment to moment with another person while the script is preprogram and doesn't have the capacity of a artificial intelligence like the computer from war games or enterprise lol. As you can't program a script on the fly you have to rely on your own skills or leave it to a script to make mistakes. Hot key beats script anyday you can cancel or not use the hot key if you thing it's a trick. It takes a instant by the time someone actualy cast anything on you or you need any potion to just role that mouse wheel up.

Well I am not personally testing any scripts, or writing them for that matter. But I am fairly sure I could program well enough to know for a fact I can make something that could easily keep up with any number of dynamic players. In either case I was only speculating the possibilities and saying it is very possible for someone with a high level of skill to write a script or program to function in a manner that would be advantageous, it is also possible for a human to figure this out and (for the more intellegent) figure out how to get around this, but still it takes time and effort to figure these things out and also once you do so does the supposed coder and thus can adjust for this, and so the cycle continues and cheating remains a problem.

They could do a file check and mark and/or disallow an account from logging on if they have edited the files in an illegal manner.

Wouldn't "really" work that would just make it a bit harder, you could edit a file and keep it completely in tact where a check would read it as positive, OR considering the check would have to be located on your computer somewhere (most likely the client) you could just edit the check to always return positive. As I previously stated I have no solution for an actual fix (altho ANY fix would deter the less skilled cheaters, which is like what 90% of them? (I am making assumptions but I highly doubt the entire cheating population are skilled programmers))

 

[Cardell]

What mouse carries 15 buttons on it ?

That is on top of the wheel and the left/right ones ?

NAGA

Technically it has like 18..

 

[Tinsil]

I find it amazing that even though everyone thinks cheating is rampant in the game, no one on stratics does it!

What a strange coincidence. Everyone seems to know a lot about it mind, of course this is just because of the "research" they do.

Hahaha. This is what I always think exactly when I see these threads. No cheaters on stratics! Never!

The problem is cheating in PVP and the game in general has become acceptable because of nothing done about it from the devs.

 

[aarons6]

i have an idea, instead of complaining about a program that will never get disabled by the uo devs. why dont you see it as a helper and use it yourself.

its so easy to NOT use a program and complain about its use that is so wide spread that im pretty sure 90% of people playing uo use it.

even the EC client has an unfair advantage over people that use 2d and not use uoa or any of the other helper/scripting programs.. lets all complain about that?

UO has evolved into a game that has "other" programs that help you play it.
wether it being a simple macro program that saves 1 million clicks on your mouse and carple tunnel in your wrist.. or a program that makes your char walk and talk and perform tasks..
these programs are here to stay as long as people are using them.

GET OVER IT!
i use the EC client almost 100% exclusively, i like the macros.
if everyone else switches to the EC client and they disable the 2d one, all of those program users will be lost.

 

[popps]

- The real problem with cheating in UO is that it dissuades legit people from participating, playing, and most importantly paying...

That is my point. Over the years I played I saw so many players leaving the game in disgust because they had enough of playing the same game others were cheating in...
Not to mention, those who might want to come back but are deterred by the feeling that they would come back to that same cheating environment that they left.

I would really but really love to hear the numbers of the balance of subscriptions that UO has had, over these years, for cheating.

Personally, I think it is a negative one.

That is, my feeling is, that the subscriptions (and resources) lost to the game because cheating was not eradicated were more than any that may have been gained because of it.

But of course, that is only a feeling I have from playing the game... It does shock me, though, that all these years have gone by and I have yet to see scripting, hacking, duping and cheating thrown out for good from Ultima Online.

 

[popps]

UO has evolved into a game that has "other" programs that help you play it.

That is one possible way to look at the issue, yes.

The one point I think the developers should really but really focus on, is that ANY and ALL players of their game, should be playing it on an even, equal basis.

This can be achieved in, I think, either of these 3 ways :

1) - Declaring war on cheats and fixing them all so that noone can cheat in the game, period.

2) - Decide that the war on cheats is too costly and with uncertain results and so change the policy and allow all third party programs, whether they cheat or not, to be free to be used with UO. All players will now be able to use them at their free will if they choose so.

3) - A mix of the above 2 with "some" cheats being able to be technically fixed with reasonable effort thus stopping them for good, but other cheats (for example with scripting) not possible to work on a fix with a reasonable effort and thus, offer those "gaming advantages" to ALL players through the Enhanced client (and that only to differentiate it from the classic client).

Personally, I'd prefer option #1 by a long shot but the point is, that either of the 3 would be MUCH better than the current situation where only some players have the advantages from cheating and this comes at the expense of a lot of other players who might end up hating the game and leaving it because of this inbalance in the game play.

Yet, I have been waiting for YEARS that something was done, for either of those 3 options and yet, I just see things stay as they are, with no real change to the status quo.

 

[popps]

NAGA

Technically it has like 18..

I looked at the picture of it and was wondering, since the buttons look quite small and close to each other, how easy it is to mistake pushing one button rather than another thus messing up whatever action one wants ??

The Logitech mouse may have less buttons but they look more distant to each other so as to allow more control over mistakes....

 

[aarons6]

That is one possible way to look at the issue, yes.

The one point I think the developers should really but really focus on, is that ANY and ALL players of their game, should be playing it on an even, equal basis.

This can be achieved in, I think, either of these 3 ways :

1) - Declaring war on cheats and fixing them all so that noone can cheat in the game, period.

2) - Decide that the war on cheats is too costly and with uncertain results and so change the policy and allow all third party programs, whether they cheat or not, to be free to be used with UO. All players will now be able to use them at their free will if they choose so.

3) - A mix of the above 2 with "some" cheats being able to be technically fixed with reasonable effort thus stopping them for good, but other cheats (for example with scripting) not possible to work on a fix with a reasonable effort and thus, offer those "gaming advantages" to ALL players through the Enhanced client (and that only to differentiate it from the classic client).

Personally, I'd prefer option #1 by a long shot but the point is, that either of the 3 would be MUCH better than the current situation where only some players have the advantages from cheating and this comes at the expense of a lot of other players who might end up hating the game and leaving it because of this inbalance in the game play.

Yet, I have been waiting for YEARS that something was done, for either of those 3 options and yet, I just see things stay as they are, with no real change to the status quo.

i would think #2 is what they decided on, being that they arent doing anything at all, as long as your not unattended you're ok.

really tho, this game has gotten so complex you cant possible play it without some form of automation.

just use something simple like tending plants to gather seeds as an example..
who really clicks every gump and moves every plant by hand.
anyone that says they dont use some script to do this is lying.

that "certain program" makes tasks like these that would take 4 hours doable in 15-20 minutes..

those "programs" are necessary..
and i dont think using those programs for tasks like these are cheating.

 

[Llewen]

i would think #2 is what they decided on, being that they arent doing anything at all, as long as your not unattended you're ok.

really tho, this game has gotten so complex you cant possible play it without some form of automation.

just use something simple like tending plants to gather seeds as an example..
who really clicks every gump and moves every plant by hand.
anyone that says they dont use some script to do this is lying.

that "certain program" makes tasks like these that would take 4 hours doable in 15-20 minutes..

those "programs" are necessary..
and i dont think using those programs for tasks like these are cheating.

Those are the kinds of excuses that cheaters use. That's the reason why you accuse some people of cheating that you know are cheating and they will baldly tell you they are not, and on some level, they actually believe they are telling the truth.

I've done the plant thing. I've moved every single plant, and clicked every single gump, one at a time, with my mouse and entirely without the aid of any illegal third party apps. Whether you believe me or not is entirely your business, I know that what I've written is true, and that's all that I care about at this point...

 

[T'Challa]

Soooooo much misinformation in this thread, it boggles the mind.

However, pot scripts do suck.

 

[Llewen]

Soooooo much misinformation in this thread, it boggles the mind.

However, pot scripts do suck.

Please enlighten us all knowing one...

I suggest everyone find the site of "that program which shall not be named" and take a look at the scripts in their "PvP, Fighting and Survival" section. It's a real eye opener. I'm not saying this to encourage anyone to cheat, but that list and the descriptions there will give you an idea what the few clean players in pvp are up against, and why I am saying that those scripts are a far bigger problem than speeding. And those publicly available scripts are just the tip of the iceberg, there are probably hundreds more which are used by individuals, or versions of those public scripts which have been modded, many of which are likely more effective than those in that list.

I actually wrote my post before I had seen yours when you used the word research, so was not accusing you directly!

It's ok, I didn't take it personally.