Garg Warrior

[Slayvite]

Gonna take the plunge and try to make a Gargoyle warrior, anyone got any advice on what to go with?
I know Throwing needs Swords aswell to compliment it and im guessing Fencing wont work the same with Throwing?
Any tips before i make the char would be helpfull

 

[Lynk]

One tip would be to research and figure out exactly what it is that you want to make before making it.

 

[Slayvite]

Their just dont seem to be a half decent thread for Gargoyles. Most of the info either seems to contradict itself or be out-of-date. Its hard enough to find anything that aint hijacked by sampire these days, let alone know wether their still talking about gargs or back on the human v's elf stuff. Gargoyles just seem to have been wrote off allready. Are they really that bad??

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Pros:
Flight doesn't take a control slot, or restrict spells/specials (like Animal Form).

Cons:
Racial ability (berserk) that drops your resists by 5 when you go under 30 HP.
Can't wear most artifacts or bonus slot like quivers/capes/sashes/boots/earrings/aprons.
Have to either convert items to gargoyle only (which can't be converted back) or craft/Imbue the whole suit gargoyle to start with.
No Jack Of All Trades on useful skills.
Throwing weapons re-target slowly.
Throwing weapons have over throw and under throw penalties.
Negating the close quarters penalty requires 120 Swords and 150 Dex (so at 149 it comes back)
Max range requires 150 Str which is hard to maintain, same as the close quarters problem, soon as anything curses you it drops.

Theres probably more depending on how you're looking at it (PvM/PvP) but in general the only things to make a gargoyle for are Imbuing, Greater Dragons or Rising Colossus.

 

[imperterritus]

I'm going to have to disagree with god here. I have 4 gargoyles (necro/fencer/poisoner, mystic/thrower/imbuer (Baja), mystic/mage/imbuer (Atlantic), and thrower/peacemaker) and enjoy playing them all.

To complete a couple of his items:

1) Berserk does have a defense cost as mentioned, but it also offers faster swing speed and damage increase. That said, I don't go out of my way to get Berserk to activate.

2) Yes, Gargoyles are restricted in the weapons and armor they can use. I haven't seen it for myself, but I understand that some artifacts can get converted for Gargoyle use by GM craftsmen. Also, they can wear earrings; in fact, earrings are armor for them, replacing helmets/caps on other races. (Similarly, necklaces replace gorgets. Both earrings and necklaces are begging to be imbued with whatever properties the Gargoyle needs.)

3) Yes, Throwing has under- and over-throw penalties. For me, overcoming these is a matter of adapting playstyle. Neither of my Throwers bothers with Swordsmanship nor Parry. Just keep moving as necessary to stay an appropriate distance from your foes. These guys are only PvM; PvP would likely be problematic.

4) The reason Gargoyles are good with the Rising Colossus spell is this summon requires 5 control slots. The flying skill allows you to move fast and still have Colossus. Other races would have to sacrifice their ride.

4a) I don't know of any relationship between Gargoyles and greater dragons.

5) Obvious, but probably should be stated -- throwing weapons don't require ammunition. No running out of arrows or bolts.

In answer to Slayvite's concerns:

a) Throwing doesn't need Swords, unless you plan on standing in melee range while you fight. If you plan to do that, skip throwing and just take Swords.

b) Fencing does not reduce the melee-range penalty; only Swords does.

If you go with one warrior Gargoyle, I suggest fully embracing the new Styggian Abyss skills:

120: Throwing, Imbuing
110: Mysticism
100: Tactics, EvalInt, Meditate
60: Chivalry

If your skill cap is less than 720, you could drop Tactics to 90 and still keep Chivalry useable, aided by jewelry that adds to Chiv skill.

There are no New Haven accelerated skill gain quests for the new skills, but you can buy all three to 40 in Ter Mur. Until the latest patch, it was an extremely good idea to start with 50 Imbuing, but the skill gain restrictions regarding unraveling are gone. (It was a real pain to move from 40 to 50.1, which had been a magic number.) Now it doesn't matter which two you start at 49 with. I'd go with 49/49/2 on the three skills. You'll immediately buy the 2 skill up to 40, so you won't start out in too bad a shape whichever one you choose as lowest.

 

[Konge]

I'm going to have to disagree with god here. I have 4 gargoyles (necro/fencer/poisoner, mystic/thrower/imbuer (Baja), mystic/mage/imbuer (Atlantic), and thrower/peacemaker) and enjoy playing them all.

To complete a couple of his items:

1) Berserk does have a defense cost as mentioned, but it also offers faster swing speed and damage increase. That said, I don't go out of my way to get Berserk to activate.

2) Yes, Gargoyles are restricted in the weapons and armor they can use. I haven't seen it for myself, but I understand that some artifacts can get converted for Gargoyle use by GM craftsmen. Also, they can wear earrings; in fact, earrings are armor for them, replacing helmets/caps on other races. (Similarly, necklaces replace gorgets. Both earrings and necklaces are begging to be imbued with whatever properties the Gargoyle needs.)

3) Yes, Throwing has under- and over-throw penalties. For me, overcoming these is a matter of adapting playstyle. Neither of my Throwers bothers with Swordsmanship nor Parry. Just keep moving as necessary to stay an appropriate distance from your foes. These guys are only PvM; PvP would likely be problematic.

4) The reason Gargoyles are good with the Rising Colossus spell is this summon requires 5 control slots. The flying skill allows you to move fast and still have Colossus. Other races would have to sacrifice their ride.

4a) I don't know of any relationship between Gargoyles and greater dragons.

5) Obvious, but probably should be stated -- throwing weapons don't require ammunition. No running out of arrows or bolts.

In answer to Slayvite's concerns:

a) Throwing doesn't need Swords, unless you plan on standing in melee range while you fight. If you plan to do that, skip throwing and just take Swords.

b) Fencing does not reduce the melee-range penalty; only Swords does.

If you go with one warrior Gargoyle, I suggest fully embracing the new Styggian Abyss skills:

120: Throwing, Imbuing
110: Mysticism
100: Tactics, EvalInt, Meditate
60: Chivalry

If your skill cap is less than 720, you could drop Tactics to 90 and still keep Chivalry useable, aided by jewelry that adds to Chiv skill.

There are no New Haven accelerated skill gain quests for the new skills, but you can buy all three to 40 in Ter Mur. Until the latest patch, it was an extremely good idea to start with 50 Imbuing, but the skill gain restrictions regarding unraveling are gone. (It was a real pain to move from 40 to 50.1, which had been a magic number.) Now it doesn't matter which two you start at 49 with. I'd go with 49/49/2 on the three skills. You'll immediately buy the 2 skill up to 40, so you won't start out in too bad a shape whichever one you choose as lowest.

Greater dragons take 5 control slots... obviously the same reason as Colossus.

I don't know why you're starting 49/49/2 as starting 50/49/1 is the exact same thing, 2 does nothing over 1...

Gargoyles don't have gloves or hats which rule out Mace and Shield and Di gloves... If you make a Mystic thrower... I could see a reason to make a garg... but if you're just making a thrower... you'd probably be better off an archer and deal with the ammo consumption with no penalties + quiver bonuses. Just my two cents :/

 

[imperterritus]

Greater dragons take 5 control slots... obviously the same reason as Colossus.

I don't know why you're starting 49/49/2 as starting 50/49/1 is the exact same thing, 2 does nothing over 1...

Gargoyles don't have gloves or hats which rule out Mace and Shield and Di gloves... If you make a Mystic thrower... I could see a reason to make a garg... but if you're just making a thrower... you'd probably be better off an archer and deal with the ammo consumption with no penalties + quiver bonuses. Just my two cents :/

Konge, thanks for the info! I've never had a tamer high enough to have a greater dragon, so I didn't know about the 5-slots for them.
You're absolutely right that 50/49/1 is a more logical starting skill distribution.

To a Gargoyle, earrings are his hat/helmet. And instead of gloves, he has a kilt. I think the only bonus advantages other races might have in apparel pieces are due to quivers and the Crimson Cincture. So far as main armor goes, it matches up piece per piece with any other race.

* earrings = helmet
* necklace = gorget
* chest armor = chest armor
* arm armor = arm armor
* leggings = leg armor
* kilt = gloves

The first two pieces should be made by high-end tinker (preferably with GM Arms Lore), and only exceptional pieces used. Without the exceptional bonuses their resists are barely significant, but note that the other four pieces have higher base resists than non-gargoyle armor. Once you have the exceptional armor/jewelry pieces, get them imbued with whatever your build needs. Note that they can wear the same rings and bracelets as any other race.

Gargoyles have more crafted-armor choices than other races. The last four pieces can be cloth, leather, metal, or stone. Both cloth and (non-studded) leather armor are meddable. So even though they can't use all the same armor as humans and elves, IMO there is a dynamic equivalence.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

1) Berserk does have a defense cost as mentioned, but it also offers faster swing speed and damage increase. That said, I don't go out of my way to get Berserk to activate.

Actually it doesn't, it gives 1 FC & 15 SSI. When your HP is below 30 your Stamina - which affects swing speed - drops like a rock, so 15 SSI isn't going to do a great deal to help you. There's no Damage Increase. Also the reason I consider it a con isn't so much for what bonuses it does/doesn't give as the matter of your resists dropping while you're already low on health, its a very badly thought out racial (read non optional) ability.

2) Yes, Gargoyles are restricted in the weapons and armor they can use. I haven't seen it for myself, but I understand that some artifacts can get converted for Gargoyle use by GM craftsmen. Also, they can wear earrings; in fact, earrings are armor for them, replacing helmets/caps on other races. (Similarly, necklaces replace gorgets. Both earrings and necklaces are begging to be imbued with whatever properties the Gargoyle needs.)

Yes some can be converted but not all. I'm not saying they can't wear earrings I'm saying that... humans and elfs get head armor, neck armor and earrings slot free for nightsight earrings or earrings of protection. Gargoyles only get head armor (in the earrings slot) and neck armor. They don't get quivers. They don't get Crimsons or boots or sashes.

3) Yes, Throwing has under- and over-throw penalties. For me, overcoming these is a matter of adapting playstyle. Neither of my Throwers bothers with Swordsmanship nor Parry. Just keep moving as necessary to stay an appropriate distance from your foes. These guys are only PvM; PvP would likely be problematic.

Maintaining the no penalty spot which is 3 or 4 tiles on the max range weapon (which as I stated elsewhere is difficult to maintain) and given that only one of the Throwing weapons had Moving Shot is not very likely. Also the penalty is not a straight reduction that can be countered, it is not a negative HCI but a penalty to your hit chance as a whole which comes from your weapon skill and as such a much higher amount. It's not -64% from 45 HCI, but from 50+ chance to hit.

4) The reason Gargoyles are good with the Rising Colossus spell is this summon requires 5 control slots. The flying skill allows you to move fast and still have Colossus. Other races would have to sacrifice their ride.

4a) I don't know of any relationship between Gargoyles and greater dragons.

The same reason as Rising Colossus.

 

[Slayvite]

So why didnt they just make Throwing the same mechanics as Archery since their race specific anyway?
Im really trying to see the upsides but since most things in a decent dungeon cast magiks anyway, whats the point of being a few steps infront. I assume youd still need 120 spell resist on a Garg?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

They wanted to make it as different from Archery as possible even though they're basically the same purpose (ranged dexxer). They ignored pretty much all the feedback about Throwing. People will still use it though, same reason they use Archery, for most stuff its fine, but with halfed leeches and things that counter attack ranged attacks its often not the best choice.

 

[imperterritus]

So why didnt they just make Throwing the same mechanics as Archery since their race specific anyway?
Im really trying to see the upsides but since most things in a decent dungeon cast magiks anyway, whats the point of being a few steps infront. I assume youd still need 120 spell resist on a Garg?

I'm guessing the devs added the Throwing restrictions as a balance to having a ranged weapon that doesn't need ammo. (Of course, magery with a 100% LRC suit doesn't need resources either; IMO they should limit LRC to 90% to force an actual cost when using ranged damage.)

If you mostly solo, magic casters in high-end dungeons are going to be tough. I tend to go to those dungeons teamed with a good number of SG mates, so their pets and summons receive most of the attacks. Solo you would need to go prepared with potions and nice armor. I haven't tried it, but it's likely you could adapt the ABC archer template to use throwing, and be very effective solo that way.

120 Resist is as useful for Gargoyles as any other race. Similarly, having Chivalry and its Remove Curse spell helps alleviate the lack of Resist. Mysticism offers an even better spell, Cleansing Winds. It not only removes curses, but simultaneously heals and cures poison.

BTW, I'm not a blind cheerleader for Gargoyles. I know they may not quite stack up with Humans -- yet. My guess is that the devs didn't want to overpower them, so they erred toward weakness. It's a lot more popular to give buffs later. Nerfs tend to be .. unpopular. We've already seen them buff the Imbuing skill, which had been bothersome and expensive to gain skill in. IMO it's likely we'll see further buffs in Throwing and the the Gargoyle race itself. That all said, they are fun to play now. Just avoid thinking in the back of your mind, "if he were only human". Focus on the strengths, and think of any current weaknesses as challenges to overcome with your play-skill and experience.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

(Of course, magery with a 100% LRC suit doesn't need resources either; IMO they should limit LRC to 90% to force an actual cost when using ranged damage.)

The 100 LRC on the suit IS the resource.
The only thing that hits for free are weapons.

 

[Slayvite]

If you go with one warrior Gargoyle, I suggest fully embracing the new Styggian Abyss skills:

120: Throwing, Imbuing
110: Mysticism
100: Tactics, EvalInt, Meditate
60: Chivalry

If you have Imbuing dont you also need GM item Id to make it work?
appart from that why would you want imbuing on a warrior type char, am i missing something?

 

[imperterritus]

ItemId now lets you see ahead of time what you will receive if you unravel an item. It is not necessary, does not buff, nor is it even really helpful for Imbuing. Bottom line is when you want to unravel something, you're going to unravel it. Seeing exactly what you'll get before you get it is kind of a waste of time.

However, Imbuing does buff many of the Mysticism spells. So does Eval Int. So a good Mystic needs all three. Having Imbuing on a warrior or mage means that if you have a pre-existing craftsman, you don't need to squeeze Imbuing into that guy's template.

I suggested that particular template because it offers all three new SA skills. If that combo doesn't make sense to you, choose something else.

 

[[JD]]

I don't know if the change went live or not but some of the throwing specials seemed to get bonuses from having either 80 imbuing or mysticism.

 

[Slayvite]

Lol, got myself set up for the char. and got me a full 70's suit.
Set off to train using the acid blob thins just inside the Abyss.
Walked around the corner a little to far (they were all hiding over the other side, luring me into a trap). Bingo 1 hit death.

Worst still once i ressed myself i found i hadn't insured my suit and couldnt even get near it now to reclaim my gear.

Not off to the best start. Lol :loser:


Oh, also wouldnt Focus be better than Meditation as youll be moving alot?

 

[Yacct]

Imbuing is very strong for gargoyles thanks to the higher base resists of gargoyle armour (hence why you'd rarely 'want' to convert humelf items). Any decent imbuer can create a damn fine suit for any pvm template.

Yes they lack JOAT etc for 2 MR here, some DCI there bla bla but quite frankly PvM in UO is pathetically simple and anyone who claims they need that edge is fos/fail.

Of course if you don't have 100 Million gold in the bank (most players going by the average suits I see people wearing in game) then imbuing is quite simply the beez kneez. Case in my point, my tamer ran around in a 50s/60s resist suit, ~50% lrc, maybe 2/2 casting, ~25% lmc, maybe 5MR for aaaages simply cause I didn't have the time/money to create a bloody suit. SA came out, I trained imbuing and bam, all the above capped out plus other perks like hpi etc etc. Then I realised just how rediculously easy anything is to solo in this game, got bored and am close to quitting again

Throwing does look pretty terrible though.

So yeah, make a gargoyle warrior that roxxors, find some hidden perks (bound to be some since everyone here takes the stance 'gargs look trash on paper so I won't bother'), post about it here so everyone can drool over your l337 warrior, then become famous as the guy that got gargs nerfed

 

[imperterritus]

Lol, got myself set up for the char. and got me a full 70's suit.
Set off to train using the acid blob thins just inside the Abyss.
Walked around the corner a little to far (they were all hiding over the other side, luring me into a trap). Bingo 1 hit death.

Worst still once i ressed myself i found i hadn't insured my suit and couldnt even get near it now to reclaim my gear.

Not off to the best start. Lol :loser:


Oh, also wouldnt Focus be better than Meditation as youll be moving alot?

Sorry about the start of your Gargoyle career. I've forgotten to insure stuff myself. As Yacct indicates though, the extra resists offered on Gargoyle armor makes a nice suit easier to replace.

What level is he? I personally wouldn't feel comfortable going into the SA dungeon until my fighting skills were at least in the 70s, and even then I'd like to go with a more experienced friend.

Meditation works fine while moving. You won't be getting the doubled mana-regen rate of active meditation, but that's true for any race. However, the Meditation skill forces you to wear all-meddable armor; even one piece of non-meddable armor shuts it off. If wearing non-meddable armor is important to you, then yes, Focus is the better choice.

Here's a quick comparison:

Meditation
* leather or mage armor only
* every 10 points of Med increases mana regen rate by 1
* no endurance regen
* possibility of doubling mana regen rate via active use of the skill

Focus
* any armor
* every 20 points of Focus increases mana regen rate by 1
* every 10 points of Focus increases endurance regen rate by 1
* no active mode

If you went the Mystic/Thrower route, you'll likely want the extra mana regen. Even a non-magic warrior though might want the extra mana for his specials and possible Chivalry spells.