How could players be enticed to PvP ?

[popps]

Ok, popps, in one breath you denounce scripts and hacks, then in the next you wonder if there is some way to help out the issues someone like Petra has ... what, exactly, do you think scripts and hacks do, what they are for, and who they benefit? why do you think they were written?

I am not condoning them (or knocking Petra!)) but you flat need to think about what you are saying.

To my opinion, the key is balance. That is, players on the same one level.

Which means, either NOONE using scripts and hacks or ALL using scripts and hacks.

Sure, there will always be someone quicker but if NOONE was to use scripts and hacks, players not as fast would not most always find themselves at the bottom of PvP because there would be also others not the fastest.

Ultima Online has always had macros. The point is to have LEGIT macros that all players can use. And macros that do not require an engineering degree to learn and use. Easily recordable and usable. The easier they can be learned, the more players might be willing to get closer to PvP, I think.

What brings problems and kills PvP, the way I see it, is the fact that only some players have an upper hand because they use "aid" which other players do not want to use.

PvP can be enjoyed even if one is not the faster PvPers out there. The condition, though, is that the playing field is levelled so that the vaster majority of PvPers are moreless on an equal basis and only a VERY limited of players will be able to really excel because of their particular abilities.

At least, that's how I see it.

 

[QueenZen]

There is very little re entice me to pvp in UO ever again.

I used to enjoy it actually.........back in the day.

I was in ORDER, ya had to BE in Order to sport that shield. Our enemies were Chaos. I enjoyed that sort of PVPing.

When factions first came into existance I was in CoM. I opted for CoM cuz at that time the Magincia faction stronghold was the most ridiculously *airy* hardest to defend compound. Thus I went CoM for the challenges of defending by land and sea the most *airy* compound of sigls to try to keep at all. It was FUN. Yet I enjoyed being in CoM back then, even though stat loss was annoying cuz sometimes there we all be, waiting out our time even with our enemies all counting our minutes together ..till we could go BACK to fighting as if whole again.

Then ITEM$%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% came into UO.

Sorry but I preferred a skill pvp over an item based pvp. It was enjoyable to only need a GM halley to layeth the smacketh down...now one has to be a math freak adding up your percentages per item per armor piece to get a great suit, you can INSURE and maybe never loose or loose entirely on Siege where there is no insurance, suits that can cost millions...or bless this or that...yet in the end you are still doing FRACTIONS MATH PERCENTAGES on every darn fool thing you may need to wear just to be competitive in pvp...and be FAST as well. I oft wonder minus their uber %%% suits and dorky artiefied items if these newer pvpers, even CAN fight [without their precious ITEMS suits and weps] like we used to do on just SKILL !

NO thank you..when pvp returns to a skill based set up over ITEM$ then pvp may once again peak my interest in Ultima Online.

So for now...my Chesapeake chrs. that used to pvp are my uber pvmers.

And on Siege..........I made crafters only there. I could care less about dying after all these years of death in UO since 98...but at least I do not need to do the math, TO DIE ! I guess I shunned item based pvp with AOS, and I will not return to pvp til I can once again...............layeth the smacketh down with just a halley and junk armor with my/our skillz alone !
And when I had a victory, it seemed much sweeter/realer/ on skills than some sort of post AOS item based addicted reliances on macros and uber item based Ultima Online.

 

[popps]

Then ITEM$%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% came into UO.

Sorry but I preferred a skill pvp over an item based pvp.

I agree, I also think that shifting the balance of Ultima Online away from skills and too much on items harmed PvP and the game overall.

While it is more feasible to balance a skill based game, it becomes a nightmare with all of the items, artifacts, modifiers out there.

Personally, I think it has gotten out of hand and it is now way beyond balanceable again.

Too many items and too many modifiers out there.

Unless the weight is restored in favour of skills, it will be hard if not impossible to bring balance back to PvP.

And without balance, PvP cannot prosper.

At least that's the way I see it.

 

[Capt.E]

Interesting topic! I'm trying to think of what brought me into pvp. It was probably after a night of chaining mel like 9 times and I became bored with the same routine. Please don't misunderstand me, I enjoy doing all the peerless bosses. I love soloing shimmer keys, it's difficult and certain parts of it, like the vortex room or hydra room, have specific techniques to them. Like pvp I got a ton of deathrobes learning the process. For me there's nothing like fighting something that doesn't run on ai though. It took a few years to get to where I am at right now, and I am by no means exceptional. I still get a ton of deathrobes, but the challenge is what brings me back. I really feel that the only thing that will bring more people to fel is pvp guilds letting more people into their guilds and being understanding and helpful with template advice and perhaps a few items. Unfortunatly, the people who cheat will always cheat, and the bad attitudes will always be there too. It's an unfortunate byproduct of human nature. The only other thing I could think of would be ultima gaining more members and from what I've seen recently there is an influx of returning players now which I feel is due to good new content as well as items and events. I hope this continues(the content as well as membership) into the future.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

PvP is complicated because of a few things that are needed. I would say a good macro set and a well set up template. Then there is gear and the ability to learn the dance.

If PvM was made to mimic real life players, such as you would find in Fel, as if you could just take a red and make him available to fight in Trammel.

At the same time allow for certain gear to be dropped that would eventually allow you to match your opponent, such as, armour, weapons, and skills.

Also, a way to be able to see what skills they are using, such as, anatomy, similar to animal lore. This would give the player the ability to learn what skills are being used.

Runics should allow PvM to be a much more powerful type of game play, so that lower runics allow for PvM based weapons to be produced that are much more powerful, in turn, allowing higher hit points on spawns.

PvM is important because it should be the stepping stone for PvP, where you would allow the high end runics to create poweful PvP weapons, making PvP the pinnacle experience of the game and the player the most difficult spawn to defeat.

So, if in Trammel, when you hunt these types of spawn, you are basically doing the same thing you would be doing in Fel, if you were to PvP.

So, if you took your best PvP guy and put him in Trammel to fight any of these templates, he/she would have a 50% chance of dieing.

A set of different types of the spawns could be created that are different levels, where you would start out with a low skill and low gear spawn and work up to the top templates in the game. They could be geared with cursed armour and artifacts that have 0 durability and cannot be repaired.

Any how, the point is, to make it no different from PvM. I would even go as far as making very powerful PvP opponents that rarely die.

New spells are needed to make ganking no less powerful than one on one, such as the ability to cause damage or to shield many players at a time.

Ganking is definately something that stops people from PvPing, in my opinion.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Unless the weight is restored in favour of skills, it will be hard if not impossible to bring balance back to PvP.

And without balance, PvP cannot prosper.

At least that's the way I see it.

Ugh...one moment you are homing in on something worth praising, the next you are talking out of your bottom again about things you have no experience with. I cannot see you having a valid opinion on balance IF you have never pvped in the first place.

Please just take the time to listen to people who actually participate in fel and zip the lip. Thanks.

 

[Maplestone]

*tosses in an outsider question*

Would PvP (and Fel in general) be helped or harmed by having more PvP minigames?

Factions is an example of a PvP minigame: you accept certain handicaps (stat loss) in return for access to a distinct set of rewards. What if there were other layers to Fel modeled after this, but with more radical restrictions (eg: "cannot use equipment with any magical properties" or "no skills over 50/70/100") but in return gained access to their own rewards relevant to the minigame.

( obviously this puts minigame players at a huge disadvantage if they cross paths with an unrestricted player, but rather than trying to balance everything, why not use the richness of skills and equipment in the game to create more "low end Fel" gameplay? Or do most people prefer there being a single high-end brawl? )

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

*tosses in a an outsider questions*

Would PvP (and Fel in general) be helped or harmed by having more PvP minigames?

Factions is an example of a PvP minigame: you accept certain handicaps (stat loss) in return for access to a distinct set of rewards. What if there were other layers to Fel modeled after this, but with more radical restrictions (eg: "cannot use equipment with any magical properties" or "no skills over 50/70/100") but in return gained access to their own rewards relevant to the minigame.

( obviously this puts minigame players at a huge disadvantage if they cross paths with an unrestricted player, but rather than trying to balance everything, why not use the richness of skills and equipment in the game to create more "low end Fel" gameplay? Or do most people prefer there being a single high-end brawl? )

I dont think so. I believe that if you add too much, everything else ends up diluted. Guild wars and factions seem enough to this pvper.

 

[bumblefutz]

When i die i run straight off to a healer to get a res! If the person who killed me is trash talking their only talking to them self coz im long gone! I find the ones who stand at their body after death are normally the ones who start the trash talking.

Of course if it weren't for the archaic "winner gets to loot all your potions and crap while you respawn naked and useless" mechanics, none of this would even come up nearly as much. UO's excuse for a PVP system is garbage, a beaten-up twisted old relic of discredited design concepts.

I'm not just talking crap. I'll explain.

There are basically two types of PVP in MMO games. Call them "Worldy PVP" and "Sport PVP" if you will. Worldy is the sort of PVP that UO had when it came out. Sport PVP is minigames, stuff like capture the flag, duels, whatever.

Sport PVP is massively more popular. Factions is a sort of sport PVP. Champ spawning is basically sport PVP as well, it being a discrete thing that goes on in very specific places as a contest over particular rewards.

Which is all well and good, but the whole thing is still saddled with relic mechanics like looting and insurance money loss and rezzing naked with 1 HP. I'm sorry, but why is ANYTHING dropping to corpse in a gear-based commercial MMO in 2009? Why not just bless everything?

Because insurance is a goldsink? Just let people buy extra vet rewards from an NPC with gold and be done with it. That's a real goldsink. Or if not vet rewards, then something else that's desirable but not game-breaking. It doesn't matter what, really.

To put it another way, all you non-PVP folks, imagine you could go out to PVP in UO and die 40 times but not lose a thing. Even if you sucked, you could go out there and take a beating learning the ropes and go home not one bit worse off than when you started. Some of you wouldn't give a crap. But some of you would go "Oh hell why NOT try it?" and even have a good time.

 

[Tina Small]

PvP can be enjoyed even if one is not the faster PvPers out there. The condition, though, is that the playing field is levelled so that the vaster majority of PvPers are moreless on an equal basis and only a VERY limited of players will be able to really excel because of their particular abilities.

There will always be people like you that complain if even "a very limited [number] of players will be able to really excel because of their particular abilities" because no one can ever agree on what terms like "a very limited number" and "really excel" mean.

There will also be at least one person who is having a bad day (or has some other excuse) to get annoyed if they lose a particular fight on a particular day and then start screaming bloody murder that the winner had some sort of unmerited advantage.

By insisting that there always has to be a "level playing field," whatever that really means in UO, I believe you are overlooking just how many people PvP in UO and truly enjoy the process of tweaking skills and fussing over their gear to keep improving it. As hard as it is for some people to accept, there really are people that like going through the damage formulas and jumping on Test Center to try out new weapons and special moves or spells and various combinations of skills to perfect the way they compete in PvP.

Take all that away in an attempt to "level the playing field" and I think you lose those people. I hesitate to call them "geeks" and convey the idea that I think they are "losers" or inferior in any way. However, I think some of the "geeks" that like to play UO and really get into the "math" of it love the idea that they can be a "geek" and use it to play a warrior or mage of some type.

I know I'm not saying that very well and I hope no one who PvPs and loves the math of it is offended. Maybe you have a better way to explain it. I doubt I'm doing a good job of conveying what I've noticed in a few people who truly seem to enjoy the process of building a PvP character that can effectively challenge others without the use of hacks and cheats but instead relies on the player's ability to assemble a great combination of gear, skills, and macros and the player's own manual dexterity and quick thinking.

 

[bumblefutz]

There just needs to be more of an incentive for people who are inexperienced or undergeared or just not very good to at least participate. Then at least those people can beat on each other and feel good about it, and if they happen to occasionally get whipped hard by an uber guy, well so what? At least they'll have the occasional victory over fellow newbs to feel good about, and with time they'll improve their gear/skills/whatever.

 

[Nexus]

*tosses in an outsider question*

Would PvP (and Fel in general) be helped or harmed by having more PvP minigames?

Factions is an example of a PvP minigame: you accept certain handicaps (stat loss) in return for access to a distinct set of rewards. What if there were other layers to Fel modeled after this, but with more radical restrictions (eg: "cannot use equipment with any magical properties" or "no skills over 50/70/100") but in return gained access to their own rewards relevant to the minigame.

( obviously this puts minigame players at a huge disadvantage if they cross paths with an unrestricted player, but rather than trying to balance everything, why not use the richness of skills and equipment in the game to create more "low end Fel" gameplay? Or do most people prefer there being a single high-end brawl? )

Possibly but Factions is a very broken system when you look at it. Balances between the factions are gone meaning one faction could have 300 members and another have 2. Faction artifacts and rewards imbalance PvP on some shards, with Siege getting hit very very hard by them. Now people have a use for silver yes, but also new people interested in PvP are having to scramble for scarce or rare items that faction players have almost unlimited access too (as long as they have the rank and silver). Another mini game like Factions could be good if, it awarded items usable by anyone and not new "enhanced" versions but normal one's as a way to bring the priced down and the arability of items up so less people would be competing for the same dwindling supply.

 

[THyRoID99]

Question to non-PvPers...
Alright, you have always hated PvP and have enjoyed the game for its PvM content, but stop for a minuite to think about it............
Is there even a chance that you could be intrigued by PvP and interested in getting into it ?
What would the game need, what changes, new dynamics in order to have YOU interested in joining the PvP part of the game ?

Sure, stop all the speed hackers/cheaters and then I might consider it.

Also get an official arena/battleground going.

 

[popps]

By insisting that there always has to be a "level playing field," whatever that really means in UO, I believe you are overlooking just how many people PvP in UO and truly enjoy the process of tweaking skills and fussing over their gear to keep improving it. As hard as it is for some people to accept, there really are people that like going through the damage formulas and jumping on Test Center to try out new weapons and special moves or spells and various combinations of skills to perfect the way they compete in PvP.

I can understand that.

My concern though, is whether or not this is a good or a bad thing for the game, overall.

I will try to explain myself better.

That there are some players in the game who enjoy the twisting and fine tuning of all modifiers and stats to gain an edge in combat I can understand.

Thing is, that "if" this turns down other players from doing PvP and make many players want to stay the hell out of PvP because of that, I wonder, is it really a good thing for the game ?

It is good for those players who like it, but if a much larger number of players are deterred from PvP because of that same reason that I wonder which is bigger, the pros or the cons... ?

The argument is not about spoiling the game for anyone, but it is whether all that fine tuning and modifiers focusing in the end helps or damages a wider practise of PvP in the game.

My concern is that it may condemn PvP to a niche activity in UO, deterring away from PvP a lot of players who "might" get into it but because of all that complexity and confusion in the end just give it up and stay the hell away from PvP areas.

 

[popps]

There just needs to be more of an incentive for people who are inexperienced or undergeared or just not very good to at least participate. Then at least those people can beat on each other and feel good about it, and if they happen to occasionally get whipped hard by an uber guy, well so what? At least they'll have the occasional victory over fellow newbs to feel good about, and with time they'll improve their gear/skills/whatever.

Well, the Developers could certainly help in this.

How ?

With a Template Building Editor that all players could use, to help them build up a template the way they want guiding them through all of the existing artifacts, modifiers and so forth.

For example, say that one wants to make an Archer for PvP, the Template Builder Editor would make a few questions and depending on the answers of the player it would process the data and come out with the best combination of skills, stats and armor/weapons for the player to put together for that purpose.

Then the player would need to focus in finding these items/artifacts playing the game so as to build that given outfit.

This could possibly help out players in becoming competitive and so perhaps become willing to get interested in PvP.

 

[Tina Small]

I can understand that.

My concern though, is whether or not this is a good or a bad thing for the game, overall.

I will try to explain myself better.

That there are some players in the game who enjoy the twisting and fine tuning of all modifiers and stats to gain an edge in combat I can understand.

Thing is, that "if" this turns down other players from doing PvP and make many players want to stay the hell out of PvP because of that, I wonder, is it really a good thing for the game ?

It is good for those players who like it, but if a much larger number of players are deterred from PvP because of that same reason that I wonder which is bigger, the pros or the cons... ?

The argument is not about spoiling the game for anyone, but it is whether all that fine tuning and modifiers focusing in the end helps or damages a wider practise of PvP in the game.

My concern is that it may condemn PvP to a niche activity in UO, deterring away from PvP a lot of players who "might" get into it but because of all that complexity and confusion in the end just give it up and stay the hell away from PvP areas.

I see. Everything done in the game must always fall to the level of the laziest common denominator.

 

[olduofan]

when you walk through or recall into fell all armor turns to gm made all the same all items like shields and swords as well all caps to skill are set to 100 and NO greater dragons

let it be about skill not items/pets

sounds fair to me oh and no ins wouldn't need it its armor bought in town just a thought

 

[hawkeye_pike]

For example, say that one wants to make an Archer for PvP, the Template Builder Editor would make a few questions and depending on the answers of the player it would process the data and come out with the best combination of skills, stats and armor/weapons for the player to put together for that purpose.

That won't work, because there's over a dozen different ways to make an Archer template. The success of the template does also depend on what you favor, what you are comfortable with, and how good your training and timing is.
Besides, we want as much diversity and individualism as possbile, don't we? We wouldn't want everybody to run around with exactly the same skills and exactly the same equipment.