How could players be enticed to PvP ?

[popps]

I try to see things from both sides, PvPer's want more folks, and PvMer's either want to avoid ganks, or just don't care for PvP , and in a few cases simply can't afford the equipment.

The one's not interesting in PvP well that's a lost cause your not going to entice them into PvP, they don't want to be prey. I had this discussion with a few folks the other night and I came up with what I thought would be the best solution.

Restrict PvP to Factions, and open it across all facets. Remove the Red restrictions from everywhere open everything up to everyone. Additionally the Balancer for Factions needs put back in, and I'm a firm beleiver that Guilds should not be allowed in Factions. When you join a faction you should be joining a NPC based Guild, let the faction have access to the Guild Chat system. A message by a SL would go to all SL's same for Min TB CoM. What this does is.

• Opens the Doors to Felucca's tougher PvM content to those interested
• Removes the Zerg Dominance of Spawns.
• Reduces the cost of Scrolling up a toon since Non-Faction players can do them with no risk of Raids, increased Mob difficulty would be a different story.
• Increases Resources available since you can Mine/LJ in Fel with no risk of PK's.
• Allows people to see PvP without going to Felucca in a Non-Risk Environment.
• Removes factions within a faction.
• No more hiding in Trammel to wait out Stat Loss.
• Provides cheaper easier to obtain materials for PvP Suits since everyone PvPing would have access to Faction Artifacts.
• This would give more meaning to Factions, it wouldn't be a guild fighting for dominance in PvP it would be a Faction fighting closer to what they were intended Story Line wise.

It sounds interesting and quite close to the Chaos/Order system some suggest.

I have not clear one thing though, what happens to reds, the murderers ?

They disappear or are free game for everyone and live the hard life of the outcasts ?

 

[Lore Master]

I read most of the comments and I have to say there is nothing that can entice me to want to PVP.

1. No rule change can make me want to PVP.
2. If all hunting areas became PVP areas I wouldn't PVP I would just quit UO for good instead.
3. If all dungeons became all PVP areas I would not PVP I would just quit UO for good.
4. Double resources, Double loot, Double Gold, Double artifacts, Double rares or whatever cannot lure me to want to PVP.
5. Removing Item Insurance or and Blessed items would make me quit UO for good.
6. There is nothing fun about being PKD and having your hard earned items being looted from your body or stolen from you and being laughed at by some punk kid or who ever. I would rather lose my items to a monster or have my body time out before I can retrieve my stuff then lose my stuff to a player anytime it is a lot less annoying and a lot less upsetting.
7. Making UO all PVP areas, making UO non-consensual PVP, forcing players to PVP. removing item insurance, removing blessed items, removing house security and making us use keys that can be stolen would make me quit UO for good and many others as well.

Bottom line UO is a great game in part because it gives us the freedom to do as we wish if we want to PVM without the risk of being pkd we can PVM without the risk of being PKD , if we want to PVP we can PVP. if we want to craft we can craft, if we want to explore we can explore and so on. forcing players to PVP is not freedom it would lose more players then it brings in and it keeps. leave all non PVP areas non PVP areas. leave all PVP areas PVP areas. if you want to make more PVP areas that is fine but please leave my non PVP areas alone.

 

[popps]

I just broke 10,000 kills on my WoW paladin, but I wouldn't touch UO PVP with a ten-foot pole.

It would be very helpfull and in aid of the game if you couls explain what the reasons are.

Perhaps it is something that with some good effort can be adjusted and fixed ?

Maybe it is worth a try.

 

[Kaleb]

I try to see things from both sides, PvPer's want more folks, and PvMer's either want to avoid ganks, or just don't care for PvP , and in a few cases simply can't afford the equipment.

The one's not interesting in PvP well that's a lost cause your not going to entice them into PvP, they don't want to be prey. I had this discussion with a few folks the other night and I came up with what I thought would be the best solution.

Restrict PvP to Factions, and open it across all facets. Remove the Red restrictions from everywhere open everything up to everyone. Additionally the Balancer for Factions needs put back in, and I'm a firm beleiver that Guilds should not be allowed in Factions. When you join a faction you should be joining a NPC based Guild, let the faction have access to the Guild Chat system. A message by a SL would go to all SL's same for Min TB CoM. What this does is.

• Opens the Doors to Felucca's tougher PvM content to those interested
• Removes the Zerg Dominance of Spawns.
• Reduces the cost of Scrolling up a toon since Non-Faction players can do them with no risk of Raids, increased Mob difficulty would be a different story.
• Increases Resources available since you can Mine/LJ in Fel with no risk of PK's.
• Allows people to see PvP without going to Felucca in a Non-Risk Environment.
• Removes factions within a faction.
• No more hiding in Trammel to wait out Stat Loss.
• Provides cheaper easier to obtain materials for PvP Suits since everyone PvPing would have access to Faction Artifacts.
• This would give more meaning to Factions, it wouldn't be a guild fighting for dominance in PvP it would be a Faction fighting closer to what they were intended Story Line wise.

Never should they destroy the spirit of UO!!!! Everything that is PVMable in fel is available in tram save for maybe the new champ spawns w/SA. Fel has 2x resources due to the fact that you can be killed/attacked at any time, Rewards from spawns are based off that same principle.

 

[Ancient Sosarian]

You can't entice people to PvP who aren't PvPers - you can only force them too.

What they should do is make hunting in Trammel/Malas/Tokuno so low valued that people don't bother - I'm talking gold from 10-50 per kill....loot would be so low that it's not valued...that way people who want to socialize can socialize freely in the non-consensual pvp areas and those who wish to hunt are forced to go to Felluca to have any chance at anything.

Oh - and all dungeons should be PvP

Now here is a Perfect Formula for ending Ultima Online!

 

[phantus]

1.) Make real pvp systems. Don't copy other games but look in their direction. Say what you want but CtF is fun and so it some of the other pvp systems in use in other games today.

2.) My personal favorite(otherwise known as UO Standard)

 

[Vyal]

I bet you all the gold in the game if the bounty system was reinstated and there was a 5 mill bounty on someones head, trammies would come into fel to try and collect.

But what do I know

 

[Lore Master]

You can't entice people to PvP who aren't PvPers - you can only force them too.

What they should do is make hunting in Trammel/Malas/Tokuno so low valued that people don't bother - I'm talking gold from 10-50 per kill....loot would be so low that it's not valued...that way people who want to socialize can socialize freely in the non-consensual pvp areas and those who wish to hunt are forced to go to Felluca to have any chance at anything.

Oh - and all dungeons should be PvP

Now here is a Perfect Formula for ending Ultima Online!

your right this would kill UO for sure.

 

[Kaleb]

I bet you all the gold in the game if the bounty system was reinstated and there was a 5 mill bounty on someones head, trammies would come into fel to try and collect.

But what do I know

Prob not I would just kill my red with my blue from my 2nd account for 5m a pop.

 

[Gellor]

Oh yeah... the once a month "how come you don't PvP" post

And I always love how seemingly the top complaints are: items and skills.

I would liken PvP to professional sports... lets say cycling. Using that analogy, here is what you will run into:

• No desire - Some people will just never have the desire to do it. No matter how level you make the field, some people just don't want to do it.
• No ability - Some people will never have the ability to do it. No matter how many years of doing it, they just won't have the knack for it. But it still doesn't prevent them for trying it.
• High learning curve - Let's face it, you don't just drop into the PvP arena and be god like... again no matter how level the playing field. Like professional sports, it takes LOTS of practice/exposure to get used to PvPing.
• "Items/skills" - True while having all the uber items/skills make somewhat of a difference, real life skill makes a bigger difference. Using cycling as an example, you don't have to have the $100k bike to be competative. But that $100k bike may help.
• Sportsmanship - This is probably the single largest turn off for getting into PvP. As a UO example, getting ganked by 8 people your first run to Yew and being told "you suck... go back to care bear land" does put a damper on things. As a cycling example, this would be like your first cycle race is against Lance Armstrong and he beats you soundly then he comes up to you and says "you suck... go ride a tricycle instead"
• Cheats - What can be said here as it applies to UO can't be said on stratics. Other than this is probably second largest turn off for getting into PvP. Using our cycling example, it would be like racing against people on steroids.

Sadly, there is nothing significant that EA can do to get more fresh blood into PvP. Anything of any significance would loose them 90% of their PvP base which in my opinion would loose them probably 10-20% of their player base. And at this stage of the game, I think a lose of 20% of their player base would close the game down.

EA can't enforce sportsmanship or even force other players to teach PvP. So short of four letter words and racial slurs, EA is powerless. Nothing EA can do about returning dropped suits.

Unfortunately, the only people who can get more fresh blood into PvP is the players. And the sad news of this is there are very few if any players or groups that will introduce people to PvP. A very good portion of the PvPers have turned elitist and won't take the time to help others trying to learn.

I was lucky in my PvP progression because my guild started an RPvP guild and we interacted with the major PvP guilds on the shard. At the time, PvP was still relatively friendly and you got a "good try.. maybe try this tactic" comments when you got wiped out. On my shard, I can't think of a single guild that does that now. In fact it probably has been 2 years since I've seen a Pac guild take that approach.

Even if PvP scene was "perfect" with everyone running the same suit, templates, and no hacks, there is still the people who have no desire to PvP. I'd venture a guess that a vast majority of people who play UO have no desire to PvP... say 60-70%.

And given that high number of no desire to PvP people, we are caught in a catch 22. In order for EA to devote a significant portion of dev time to PvP issues, they need to justify it with player numbers. But without fixing PvP issues, people aren't going to try PvP.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

1. I don't think fast enough - realising what you should have done 10 minutes after you rezed doesn't really cut it.

Actually realising what you should have done afterwards is how people learn PvP.

Its the people that don't ever realise, don't ever think and always blame it on some 'thing' thats beyond their control, like the other person speedhacking that never get anywhere and have a miserable time trying.

It quite honestly doesn't make any difference wether you fight someone who is speedhacking or not, running away doesn't kill anyone, it increases their movement not their cast time, or swing time.

If I duel someone whos better than me and lose I'm not going to miraculously win just by turning on a speedhack, the only way I can win is if I learn what I'm doing wrong and get better.

I'm not saying they don't exist, but people also have a pretty skewed idea of what scripts can do for you, drinking potions - yeah scripts exist - but they don't think, they don't make judgement calls on wether its a good time to drink the potion with a 10s wait or if its worth saving an extra few seconds to see if a bandage kicks in or someone gets your heal, or the other guy gets ganked.

Sadly these days, most peoples PvP experiences come down to dismount tamer ganks, or really biased dexxer fights.

Syrus of Gahd's post (aside from my own dislike for tamers) is pretty much what PvP is about.

If all you take away from a fight is a death robe then yeah you lost, if you take away some insight then eventually you'll get better.

 

[phantus]

I bet you all the gold in the game if the bounty system was reinstated and there was a 5 mill bounty on someones head, trammies would come into fel to try and collect.

But what do I know

Nothing apparently. If it was 5 mil he'd have his buddy cash it in for him like used to happen.

 

[PASmountaindew]

Well I am not a PvPer. Closest I get to PvP is being a backup person at the gate rezzing and healing my guildmates or doing the PvM at a champ spawn. The biggest draw back for me in PvP is all the scripting hacks people use in PvP and the fact that I never really took the time to learn how to set up all the spell combos on hot keys and such. Maybe with the new client and having the hot bars to drag spells to will help. What would be really nice is if someone or EA created a custom set of ingame macros for spells and then made a universal backup copy of the UOmacros file from the UO folder and put it and a diagram of a keyboard mapping out all the macros. That way all someone like me would have to do is copy that macro file to my UO folder and study the keyboard diagram to learn what all the key combos are and then try them.

 

[bumblefutz]

I have my share of kills in WoW, but according to my statistics page I also have 1000+ deaths. Thus if my PVP habit took place in UO instead of WoW, it may well have cost me...

A hundred thousand bandages
Ten thousand assorted potions
Fifty thousand of each reagent
Five or six million insurance gold

I can't afford to PVP in UO, even leaving aside buying hundreds of millions of gold worth of gear. If I die in PVP I want to lose absolutely NOTHING. This is non-negotiable. If I decide that I'm going to PVP, I want to actually PVP, not run a whole scroll-selling potion-manufacturing side business to be able to afford to PVP.

Seriously. PVP in UO is nothing bit a rich man's pastime. PVP in WoW is something every newb can do to get XP and/or gear.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

I bet you all the gold in the game if the bounty system was reinstated and there was a 5 mill bounty on someones head, trammies would come into fel to try and collect.

But what do I know

Nah Id just kill myself with my other account and collect the 5 million.

 

[FrejaSP]

I'm a Siege Perilous player and red on my main char but I sucks in PvP.

1. I'm rusty, to few players on in EU time
2. I'm to slow (getting old and I'm female), the young guys are much faster, both their fingers and their mind when it comes to PvP.
3. I don't use most effective template and items, I just play.
4. I too hate to die and get dry looted

However I love the freedom on Siege and the freedom we had first year of UO.

I offen think about how to get more non PvP players to try out PvP.

I think players need a way to train PvP safe without lose of items or with limet risk.

I could think a few ways.

Duel arena:
I think we need at least on of them in each town and some away from town too.

Give them a sign, where you get a popup gump, where you can add your self to one of the sides of the fight. When all figthers had choosen side and added them self, all need to accept like in a trade gump.

If more join in before all accept, all will have to accept again.

If someone want to make 1 vs 3 or 2 vs 2 or 5 vs 2, it should be possible as some are more powerful than others.

I also think you should be able to allowed some levels of looting, something like:
All [ ], Gold [ ], Potions [ ], Regs [ ], Gems [ ], Resources [ ], etc
Then the fighters could mark the kind they wanted to drop to the winning team.
When dying, you should auto rez without a body on ground and be kicked from the arena. Your items marked for looting should be saved somewhere in the system until there is a winner or a winner team it can be shared between.

I don't know about battlegrounds, never been in one so I don't know if it would be useful as PvP tranings ground.

I also think we need a simple duel system, like the one in WOW, where the dueling players won't drop loot.

Alot would like to PvP but do never get enough training to have a fair chance.
Dying in few sec everytime they try is no fun.

 

[kelmo]

It is a pity that faster is rewarded... Sometimes slow is good.

 

[Jade of Sonoma]

I completely agree here. If you have to 'bait' someone to do something - it will not end well.

Why does the original poster even care? Because they want more targets to kill. Its like the deer hunter saying 'gee - what can I do to get more deer to come near my blind so I can kill them'? Do you think that is going to be fun for the deer?

I find zero enjoyment in 'killing' a fellow player. I used to run hundreds of champ spawns and the fun was in working together to complete the spawn and earn the reward. I found no satisfaction in this game ever from killing another player. I'm not that type of person. I prefer co-operative play.

Now I do spend alot of time in Fel but fortuneately its usually deserted these days and I don't get bothered.

At the end of the day - if you have to 'bait' someone into doing something they dont' want to do - its not a good tactic. How about creating gameplay that people WANT to play?

How about creating fighting arena's with no insurance loss and giving out titles for success on a weekly basis? How about creating ways for players to compete with each other without it having to be a fight as to who has the best spell/pot macro or script? I dunno. Change the gameplay and it might be something I'm interested in.

To get run over by someone who spends far more time working on their scripts and hacked client to gain an advantage so they can mow me down and stand over my corpse talking with the ego of a 6th grade student is not my idea of fun.

Ditto.

 

[popps]

I bet you all the gold in the game if the bounty system was reinstated and there was a 5 mill bounty on someones head, trammies would come into fel to try and collect.

But what do I know

Who pays the 5 millions ?

If it was the game system it could be exploited.

If it was the trammel player I don't think we'd see many bounties.

Now, if it was the reds from their own money and if they did not have any then items would be deleted to pay for, then it could be worth discussing it.....

The more murders a red has the higher the bounty would be and the more expensive it would be for that red to die.

Quite a challenging and thrilling life would become that of murderers.....

 

[Kaleb]

I have my share of kills in WoW, but according to my statistics page I also have 1000+ deaths. Thus if my PVP habit took place in UO instead of WoW, it may well have cost me...

A hundred thousand bandages
Ten thousand assorted potions
Fifty thousand of each reagent
Five or six million insurance gold

I can't afford to PVP in UO, even leaving aside buying hundreds of millions of gold worth of gear. If I die in PVP I want to lose absolutely NOTHING. This is non-negotiable. If I decide that I'm going to PVP, I want to actually PVP, not run a whole scroll-selling potion-manufacturing side business to be able to afford to PVP.

Seriously. PVP in UO is nothing bit a rich man's pastime. PVP in WoW is something every newb can do to get XP and/or gear.

UO is not WOW, WOW is not UO!!! People should never compare the systems. It does not cost 100's millions to suit up for PVP anymore, artifacts are easier than ever to get be it through factions, or running doom runic armor is cheap and everywhere. Imbuing will soon even the field item wise homeboys 50m jewel or weapon will drastically decline in value. Insurance prevents everything from being looted and is cheaper to die in PVP vs a MOB.

frejaSP:
Duel arena:
I think we need at least on of them in each town and some away from town too.

Give them a sign, where you get a popup gump, where you can add your self to one of the sides of the fight. When all figthers had choosen side and added them self, all need to accept like in a trade gump.

If more join in before all accept, all will have to accept again.

If someone want to make 1 vs 3 or 2 vs 2 or 5 vs 2, it should be possible as some are more powerful than others.

I also think you should be able to allowed some levels of looting, something like:
All [ ], Gold [ ], Potions [ ], Regs [ ], Gems [ ], Resources [ ], etc
Then the fighters could mark the kind they wanted to drop to the winning team.
When dying, you should auto rez without a body on ground and be kicked from the arena. Your items marked for looting should be saved somewhere in the system until there is a winner or a winner team it can be shared between.

This is a good system, The devs should log into the most popular PRS server and take their dueling arena Idea from them its one of the best duel ideas i have ever seen or done.

 

[Prince Erik]

While I was never a heavy duty PvP'er I did enjoy mixing it up now and then under the right circumstances. I personally prefer the art of the duel where you're mixing wits and skills against a valiant opponent in single combat. So, yes, ganks turn me off as they do many people.

What truly killed all aspects of pvp for me was the switch to item based UO. Now to even have a chance to compete you need uber equipment. I, like many here, are not ultra competitive and I do not have the equipment. I liked pvp better when all it was was GM armor against a bag of regs. The last fun time I had pvp'ing was on Siege since it's closest to what I'd like out of pvp. Politics and having to pvp all the time chased me away from there, but really, Siege is closest to what I'd like to see. Fel without insurance... I might like that..

-P.E.

 

[Mervyn]

Hi I'm mervyn, i have pvped for 8 years on Europa, everyone knows me:

Reasons why people stop doing pvp:

1. A few players 'Speedhack' and use scripts every single day and not one person has yet even been given a warning, it just spoils it for the rest of players and they get sick of it and just don't play anymore. Everyone knows who they are and they even admit it in-game sometimes.

2. It is actually possible to set your pet on another player? This is frowned upon in the community so not many do it, but the fact that it's possible is ridiculous, you even still go in stat loss when killed by an enemy factioners pet, unbelievably ridiculous.

3. Someone made a point about the equipment being too expensive, this will be remedied with the new update by imbueing.

4. Someone made a good point about being killed by 'armys', there should be a mode where you can challenge someone without being set upon by others. Otherwise some players will never get a chance to learn pvp.

 

[HeathBar]

I PvP regularly but I'm also friends with a lot of people who aren't into that playstyle. I think there is too much elitism and trash talk, it's a big turn off for new players who don't have "leet" suits or can't compete on the same level as the best players/guilds.

 

[Smokin]

Nothing could really entice me to pvp, I mean I can do it. I am skilled enough in game and out. I am not afraid of dieing or losing stuff, it happens. Its just not in my nature to kill someone even if its just a game, I don't enjoy it.

That part about having to pvp in the new expansion ticked me off, and telling me that I don't know what I like or need, give me a break been around long enough in this world to know what I like and need.

 

[Kazar]

I used to pvp all the time and then the pk punks took over. It used to be a lot of fun to me to go kill or be killed in fel. But then it changed and there turned out to be more smart*** crap talkers that don't know their rectum from their cranium that think that there is glory in rezkills.

 

[Wolfways]

As soon as i saw the title of this thread i felt the rage rising...so haven't replied until i've had some time to think about this, but i have to say that my reply is still the same...

I hate Fel.
I hate that because it's a pvp ruleset and few players play there EA feel that it needs better pvm (champ spawns+powerscrolls) to "entice" pve players there and more resources so crafters will go there...just so pk's have more targets.
Looking at other mmo's shows that pve will always be more popular. There are always more pve servers.

How about just letting people play the way they want and stop giving the pvpers better items?
I hate being penalised because of my playstyle.

Now i'm not against pvp...if it is solely for pvp.
The only game i've seen this done right in is Warhammer Online and i loved pvping there. My wife hated pvp in UO but can't get enough in Warhammer! Pvp areas on pve servers are for pvp. There's battlegrounds which don't start until there are enough on both sides, and areas where you can go (and are flagged for pvp) if you wish, but there's nothing there that is "important" to the game, like powerscrolls.
It also helps that nearly every character template is good for pve and pvp so no need to have characters specifically for pvp. You can do pve and jump straight into a pvp fight (in the pvp areas) if you wish.

Of course, the death penalty in UO is harsh compared to any game i can think of other than EVEOnline.
In pve that is acceptable because you rarely die in pve...or you should rarely die anyway
In pvp the death penalty is too harsh when you could die over and over in one day.

In summary, without a system of "sides" and pvp areas that are solely for pvp, and a less harsh death system i don't see, or maybe even want, a reason to pvp in UO.
I don't want to be enticed to pvp. I want to pvp because i enjoy it.

 

[Nexus]

Never should they destroy the spirit of UO!!!! Everything that is PVMable in fel is available in tram save for maybe the new champ spawns w/SA. Fel has 2x resources due to the fact that you can be killed/attacked at any time, Rewards from spawns are based off that same principle.

And Zerg Dominance of Felucca's PvP Scene is what's slowly choking the life out of that play style. Don't like it you don't have to, but Felucca PvP will not get a major up swing until Zerg guilds are gone, and availability of items deemed "Necessary" to PvP are easily obtainable at low cost to every player.

And Do NOT spout off the concept of Risk vs Reward. There is 0 risk in Fel, at least on prodo shards. You have no risk because the only thing you have to loose is 600gp per item insured and stuff you didn't start with when you logged on to begin with. You face the same risk in PvM, your no better and the Feluccian population is just as "Carebear" as anyone else when you start splitting hairs finely.

**Edit**
Come to think of it I see more Neon and Sparklies on the Fel side of the moongate than in Trammel if you want to talk "CareBear".

 

[PJay]

I pvp most of the days im playing uo and the state of pvp is pretty sorry its the same old people fighting over the same stupid things.
Im not sure pvp can be fixed with uo because of many things:

1 - Time: Its been left too long people are now way to cocky they say what they like freely no censorship and mostly set out to offend people rather than enjoy the game.

2 - Balancing: we could go on forever in this section. As mervyn meantioned Pets are a royal pain in the arse. Certain templates have way too much power archers in perticular.

3 - Equipment: This has turned a corner allready with the enhanced faction arties which has made a massive difference to the cost of a pvp suit. Also imbuing with also help even further.

4 - Ganking: This will allways happen as long as people dont learn pvp. You often find the major gankers are the ones with little pvp experiance but can follow a simple "KILL PJAY" command from their guild leader.

5 - Cheating: Too much going on. Auto scripts, speed hacks, field hacks, stump hacks. Been going on forever and never been stopped. We all know who they are they freely post pictures of these hacks in action and gloat etc but how can anyone say anything when theyve been around so long they are part of uo??

6 - Idiots: Most people know who these are on Europa and they despise new players wont help anyone selfish and usually the ones who talk rubbish trash talk and generally give pkers a bad name.

The only way i can see things changing is People changing! And anyone who uses the excuse its too expensive has never tried. When i die i loose about 2 - 3k insurance a drop in the ocean.

 

[shanshu]

Nothing. I don't enjoy PvP. I'm not very competitive by nature and have little to no desire to fight against another player. At least with a MOB, I can recall if I get bored.

These days, I don't PvM much anyway. I am more interested in house design and deco as well as maxing my skills.

 

[Kaleb]

And Zerg Dominance of Felucca's PvP Scene is what's slowly choking the life out of that play style. Don't like it you don't have to, but Felucca PvP will not get a major up swing until Zerg guilds are gone, and availability of items deemed "Necessary" to PvP are easily obtainable at low cost to every player.

I have been in guilds that fought against one of the best Zerg guilds in the History of uo on pacific for years and with quite abit of success. Though I didnt ever think to try to go about it solo I guess common sense got the better of me.

And Do NOT spout off the concept of Risk vs Reward. There is 0 risk in Fel, at least on prodo shards. You have no risk because the only thing you have to loose is 600gp per item insured and stuff you didn't start with when you logged on to begin with. You face the same risk in PvM, your no better and the Feluccian population is just as "Carebear" as anyone else when you start splitting hairs finely.

LOL, OK I hunt in fel all the time, when I get PK'ed I loose what ever I have been collecting during that time that was the risk i was taking, when I pvm in tram if I die i rez recollect my loot and go at it again that is zero risk. With this post I hardly believe you play siege or have been playing there long. Besides since when have we been able to insure resources Seems you know something I don't? and I never said risk vs reward, I only see that at spawns.

**Edit**
Come to think of it I see more Neon and Sparklies on the Fel side of the moongate than in Trammel if you want to talk "CareBear".

I never once in this thread called any playstyle "Carebear". Hue's In game have nothing to do with being Carebear.

 

[Nexus]

I have been in guilds that fought against one of the best Zerg guilds in the History of uo on pacific for years and with quite abit of success. Though I didnt ever think to try to go about it solo I guess common sense got the better of me.

And new people to PvP are automatically going to be in a with a guild? How are they going to experiment if not solo?

LOL, OK I hunt in fel all the time, when I get PK'ed I loose what ever I have been collecting during that time that was the risk i was taking, when I pvm in tram if I die i rez recollect my loot and go at it again that is zero risk. With this post I hardly believe you play siege or have been playing there long. Besides since when have we been able to insure resources Seems you know something I don't? and I never said risk vs reward, I only see that at spawns.

In the end you left with nothing of value you didn't have when you logged on to start with. You lost pretty much nothing you didn't already have to start with. End the end you risked nothing since you didn't come out worse than before. You know it's simple math, you had your gear which we'll call (1) and you got some loot we'll call (2) your day went (1 + 2 - 2 = 1) Hmm seems you didn't loose anything you didn't already have since that simplifies down to (1).
You never got that Loot back somewhere you could profit off it. It is irrelevant to the situation. It's like saying someone gave you a Corvette but before you could drive off with it a Semi hit it and totaled it. You didn't gain anything, but in the end you didn't lose anything either.

I never once in this thread called any playstyle "Carebear". Hue's In game have nothing to do with being Carebear.

That part wasn't directed towards attempting to counter your arguments, but I know sooner or later it's coming from someone. Truth is Felucca is just as Carebear as Trammel when you simplify it all down. I can have just as rotten luck on some days in Trammel as I do in Fel. Only difference? It's Mobs not players, so what I still stand to lose the same amount, it's pointless for people to babble "Risk vs Reward" in a PvP thread because there really is no risk real risk involved.

 

[Amren]

Iam a non PvPer!

The only PvP i ever did was some RP guildwars back in the days before Trammel. Else I have been pked a few times.. especially arround IDOCS in fel
I think that PvP is too item dependant... I cant afford to pay 100s of millions to get the top gear that is needed to really stand out in pvp.

One thing that could bring me futher into pvp is "battlegrounds" (Sorry just comming back from WoW ).
Id like to enter a "safe" area with random or predefined teams and fight till the objective is met.. be that kill all others or CTF or something simular.

Id like to not worry about losing any non insured or blessed gear.. if I want a bag with potions or regs, I dont want to lose it on my first death.

Battlegrounds would never work in UO. It works in WoW because every race is etiher tired to the Horde or Alliance factions. Both factions have no way of communicating with each other at any time, and the only interaction they have with each other is in some form of pvp, be it ffa on pvp servers or in BGs/WG.

If a system like that was in UO, people would just buy wins (pay someone to lose) or just fight their friends and take the path of least resistance to what ever rewards there were.

 

[MalagAste]

First off..... I PvP.....

I just choose to do it in TRAMMEL... Where I don't have to worry about, hacking, cheating, scripting, gank squads.

I do it with a purpose.... for RP reasons..not just to "kill" others.

Secondly since they took out pretty much all the reasons to "hunt" reds in Fel.... I hardly find it rewarding... And it's not the Money gold that matters...

Then lets talk about the consequences.... reds have zero risk... and nothing to fear... it's no longer any big deal to "go red".... and be a MURDERER... that means NOTHING anymore.... any 2 bit twit can go red now..... especially if he's a script running hacker...

Anyone can be a red when it's 20 vs 2... but where is the "fun" in that? Honestly NOT my idea of a good time...

I gave up any hope at good PvP when they killed archery, turned tamers loose with GD's making it "easy" for them to go red... Quit working to stop script running hackers... and turned UO from a skill based game to a game of who's got the best items and hacks...


Add that with my outdated PC, arthritis and refusal to run "cheats" and there really is the reason why I am rarely seen in Fel.

And "forcing" me to go there isn't going to happen. I'm sure I'm not alone in my feelings.

Calling me a Trammy and a Carebear isn't going to change my mind or earn you any respect either.

 

[Gwendar-SP]

Why would anyone want to murder others. From my years on Siege it seems like that is what PvP is - killing players who have no desire to fight.

These days EA is telling us that we should leave Siege if we don't want to be in faction. What else can they do to force PvP?

Arenas? EA is moving the other way when they removed the guard zones in faction towns. For Siege this means the removal of escorts unless one can gate, increased risk in heartwood and community collections, the lost of guard in half our towns, and the loss of thhe use of 60% of our gatable stable towns.

 

[LordTesla]

CHANGE THE 3rd PARTY PROGRAM LAWS...

Fix them... too many people depend on steriods...

I am a pvper, but it makes me want to even quit the game when someone is OBVIOUSLY using a crutch of some sort, and a GM is like 3 hours away from busting them,

 

[Ailish]

The points you raise are good ones.

I wonder if the wonderfull world of programming could somehow find ways to help with the issues that you raise so that even those players not interested in PvP because of them could instead become more willing to adventure in it.

Ok, popps, in one breath you denounce scripts and hacks, then in the next you wonder if there is some way to help out the issues someone like Petra has ... what, exactly, do you think scripts and hacks do, what they are for, and who they benefit? why do you think they were written?

I am not condoning them (or knocking Petra!)) but you flat need to think about what you are saying.

 

[Kazar]

oh well

 

[pacific lily]

Do you play tennis? Why not? If you don't play tennis, how can I entice you to play tennis?

TENNIS PLAYERS - what would you say Tennis needs to have to get more players?

NON TENNIS PLAYERS - do you just not like to sweat? Don't look good in a short skirt? Not neat enough to wear white clothes? What would tennis NEED in order to get you to play tennis?


Is there some prize that you get if 100% of players PVP? Do you get some sort of recruitment bonus weapon or extra house storage space? If you don't, then why does it matter why someone doesn't pvp? Do you just feel like you need the posting capital of more PVP players on Stratics? I mean seriously, some people just don't like the same things you do! There isn't anything you can *give* some of us, we're just not interested in PVP.

Lily - Tried both PVP and Tennis and found them to be BORING.

 

[Uvtha]

Stop the cheating in pvp. Open some sort of arena where people can fight with a no stress, no loss rule set, so people can try out pvping to see if they like it before getting into the actual frey.

Thats really all thats needed.

 

[bumblefutz]

UO is not WOW, WOW is not UO!!! People should never compare the systems.

Yeah, one is a game with millions of players engaging in various PVP systems, where even a super-carebear roleplayer probably has a few hundred kills from screwing around in Battlegrounds. The other has six guys standing at Yew gate going "Why doesn't anyone PVP?"

 

[hawkeye_pike]

what, exactly, do you think scripts and hacks do, what they are for, and who they benefit? why do you think they were written?

They were written because
1. the system allows them to work for many years without consequence.
2. some players have the urge to "OWN", to feel superior, even if they lack PvP skills.

What they do?
- Opponents who outrun you on foot while you're on horseback.
- People who run macros that automatically chug the right potion.
- Multiple shots being fired at the same time.
- People who see you although you're hidden.
- People who use tools that help them navigate around blocking tiles.
- People who use a tool to exploit an insurance bug.
- Speedhacks that cause you unexpected lag.
- People using automated mass targeting systems for their advantage.
- Instant target change scripts.
- Hackers who can run through trees and other blocking objects.
And so on.

They benefit those who do not care about honesty, fairness and ethics.

 

[Petra Fyde]

1. Practice
2. Practice
3. Practice
4. Who says you have to kill players? Let your teammates do the killing while you heal them or hit up some champ spawn with blues doing it and protect them if raiders show up.

But that's not pvping is it? The fact that I don't pvp doesn't mean I don't go to felucca. My Europa characters mine in Felucca, one of my characters is a stealth shepherd, her name is Heidi Ninfel. Are you able to 'read' my quirky character names?
I've occasionally been invited along on a champ spawn, I don't actually belong to a large guild. When I go, I'm the one that stops the spawn from reverting while the pvper's drive off the raiders.
Every nightmare I've tamed comes from Covetous 2 Fel, I pvm in fel. I just don't pvp. I don't enjoy it. If a pk comes along I run or die, or more usually both. That's fine, I'm oki with that, it's the risk I take from being there. I play Siege too.

The only thing that ever bothers me is the senseless gloating over your corpse that people call 'trash talk'.
There was a time when trash talk served a purpose, gloating over a defeated enemy or murdered crafter wasn't it. It was used during the fight, not after it. It was used in an attempt to make your opponent lose his temper and make a mistake. There was dexxer on Europa who was pretty expert at it. Not sure how many would remember Villa now.

Trash talk over a corpse isn't the sign of a good pvper, it's the sign of a playground bully. Those are what keep people out of Felucca.

 

[Winker]

The only thing that ever bothers me is the senseless gloating over your corpse that people call 'trash talk'.

Trash talk over a corpse isn't the sign of a good pvper, it's the sign of a playground bully. Those are what keep people out of Felucca.

Why are you hanging around your dead body any way?

When i die i run straight off to a healer to get a res! If the person who killed me is trash talking their only talking to them self coz im long gone! I find the ones who stand at their body after death are normally the ones who start the trash talking.

Actually i find that if you get a good res kill at a healer you find the dead doode doing a lot more of trash talking than the killer

 

[FrejaSP]

Why are you hanging around your dead body any way?

Not all killers are jerks, at least not on Siege. I always show my ghost. Some will tell me to wait and rez me after they are done looting, others will tell me to find a healer.

Most rez kill do happen because the new rezzed try to loot before the killer is done looting or because the new ressed start to trash talk or cry.

I do not play normal shards so I do not know how life is there but I rarely get trash talked or rez killed on Siege but I do offen chat with the guy who killed me.

 

[Alezi]

But that's not pvping is it? The fact that I don't pvp doesn't mean I don't go to felucca. My Europa characters mine in Felucca, one of my characters is a stealth shepherd, her name is Heidi Ninfel. Are you able to 'read' my quirky character names?
I've occasionally been invited along on a champ spawn, I don't actually belong to a large guild. When I go, I'm the one that stops the spawn from reverting while the pvper's drive off the raiders.
Every nightmare I've tamed comes from Covetous 2 Fel, I pvm in fel. I just don't pvp. I don't enjoy it. If a pk comes along I run or die, or more usually both. That's fine, I'm oki with that, it's the risk I take from being there. I play Siege too.

The only thing that ever bothers me is the senseless gloating over your corpse that people call 'trash talk'.
There was a time when trash talk served a purpose, gloating over a defeated enemy or murdered crafter wasn't it. It was used during the fight, not after it. It was used in an attempt to make your opponent lose his temper and make a mistake. There was dexxer on Europa who was pretty expert at it. Not sure how many would remember Villa now.

Trash talk over a corpse isn't the sign of a good pvper, it's the sign of a playground bully. Those are what keep people out of Felucca.

Well, by cross-healing/curing friendly mounts & poisoning enemy mounts you'd still be participating in PvP. Hidin' In Fel. Yes, trashtalk BEFORE someone has been killed is a good way to make 'em charge like an idiot and die like an idiot

EDIT: Did I win moderator status?

 

[Cailleach]

Question to PvPers...
Alright, you are a PvP expert and know it all, all of the good, but also all of the bad of PvP.

What would you say Ultima Online needs in order to have more players be willing to join the PvP ruleset areas ?


Question to non-PvPers...
Alright, you have always hated PvP and have enjoyed the game for its PvM content, but stop for a minuite to think about it............
Is there even a chance that you could be intrigued by PvP and interested in getting into it ?
What would the game need, what changes, new dynamics in order to have YOU interested in joining the PvP part of the game ?

Let's start the discussion and see if any good ideas show up......

Gag the trashtalkers. Get rid of the hacks. Do that, and you might just be able to convince me to give it a go. My husband pvp's, and after spending a few hours watching him, I can honestly say those are the two things that put me right off. If those people were standing in front of me in rl, they'd be holding their ear and saying 'oww'. I don't tolerate being spoken to like that in rl, damned if I'm going to put up with it in game!

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

@popps...color me impressed by this insightful topic.

@blacksun...You hit the nail right on the head. Keep that list around, it would be a good checklist for new pvpers and devs alike to review.

 

[rareitem]

For those trying to put rules to make pvp more interesting "FOR THEM" I just say Felucca is pure pvp area and we love it , so let it stay the way it is.

The game offers many ways to play pvp in trammel, you dont need to go to Felucca if you dont want to. I mean, if you want to PvP with people you trust and wont loot you, just make a guild , split members in 2 or more groups, or just make 2 guilds and declare war each other and all that people can pvp in trammel with their own rules.If someone breaks the rules just kick him out of the guild.

There is a lot of people usign that system, like those that like playing old style pvp with no arties and just exceptional armor, weps. they dont need a pre AoS server no need of new pvp rules because they put the rules.

So , the guild system in trammel a bit of organization and some imagination can make a full pvp system with the rulesets you like. The game is open to all those initiatives.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

The only thing that ever bothers me is the senseless gloating over your corpse that people call 'trash talk'.

Trash talk over a corpse isn't the sign of a good pvper, it's the sign of a playground bully. Those are what keep people out of Felucca.

My first PK death is still fresh in my mind. My killer stood over me as my screen went dull and *pees on corpse*. At first I was shocked but then began to laugh as he did his little pk *dance*.

 

[Numtinae]

I go way back, just came back after a year or so off. I'm a dedicated non-PVPer in UO.

My early experiences with PVP were large crowds of people appearing out of nowhere shouting cor por, killing me, and looting me dry. I came, I saw, I cancelled.

When I came back after Tram supposedly gains were better for taming in Fel so I would go over with little other than potion bags and tame on ice island. I never saw anyone and I was starting to get comfortable. I saw someone crafting once. I moved a judicious few screens away. A large crowd of reds from the crafter's friends appeared and ganked me. I stopped taming in Fel.

Now I will go to Fel on an ethereal with an insured LRC suit and runes and books and mark runebooks to sell. And that's it.

I have enjoyed PVP in other games. I was part of Shadowclan Irekei in Shadowbane. I am in a little belt-pirate corp in Eve. I played DAOC for years. Tried warhammer (too much pve, bad sieging). I am looking forward to Aion.

I feel like UO PVP is mainly pointless, zergy, ganky, inaccessible to someone who doesn't have a PVP build/mentality/macros/etc, and dominated by people I don't find it socially fun to be around. The incentives to pvp in the form of scrolls and such seem to be largely aimed at forcing people who don't want to PVP to provide victims for gankers, not to actually set up competitive meaningful pvp.

Mostly it feels like a different game from my PVE life in UO and it's not the game I came here to play in 1998 and it's not the game I come here to play now in 2009. When I joined Eve or Shadowbane or Warhammer the game was PVP. Period. That was why I was there. I'm not here for that. Never have been. There's really nothing that could push me to spend more time in Fel or PVP and when I see something like the champ spawns being put in SA being all Fel ruleset, it makes me resentful not interested in going there.