real unbalance'd

[Vyal]

Since greater dragons came out and someone invented the dismount archer tamer temp the game has got stupid to me. If you play in fel and arn't some trash tamer with a dragon you know what i'm talking about.

After being ganked by nothing but dismount tamers for the past year or so pvp is no longer fun to me. You go out get dismounted and die in the blink of a eye to some tamer who is already gone away in llama form from a dragon.

Or a squad of people riding dreads heck all it takes is a dismount and all kill with a prep'd dread and your dead. Fun times right?

I got a idea lets nerf archer or mages some more . . .

The pvp scene is a complete unbalance 10 non tamers versus 10 dismount tamers and every one that is against the tamers die I don't care who you are.

1 on 1 is just a sob story lets fight the dismounter with a dragon one on one oo wait I got dismounted the guy said all kill and is now in llama form or dog form and gone oo darn I got stuck on a tree - dead, darn time to sit out twenty min and not have fun.

And just soooo many others its just come to the point pvp is stupid. It's not team play its who has more tamers.

Me and 9 other people that I know of are quitting the game, SA or not.
I have seen alot of unbalanced gameplay in UO but tamers are the worst, people won't play UO anymore because of the tamers - people won't return because of tamers. Anyways this isn't a rant its a hope that it gets fixed within the next 26 days.

 

[Ender]

Re: Well my time has come . . .

Stuff like this is why I PvP in FPSes and other games.

 

[Uriah Heep]

Re: Well my time has come . . .

One very unpopular idea that was put forth some time back to combat this problem, was to have no bonded pets in Fel. You can fight with a Dragon all you want to, but when he's killed, he's gone, just like the old days.

Pets in Fel won't bond, pets taken to Fel become unbonded...Kinda puts more risk in the tamer pvp'er...

Maybe time for this idea to get looked at yet again.

 

[Uriah Heep]

Re: Well my time has come . . .

And besides, You'll be back.
Peeps always come back

 

[Berethrain]

Id be ok with unbonded pets. I'd also be ok with firebreath not being able to hit you from half the map away...it's rediculous.

 

[Krrom]

PvP in this game has been unbalanced for one reason or another since day 1 in 1997. First it was connection....now its tamers. Fact is most people dont go to Fel. Trammel was created because a large majority of people simply do not enjoy non-consentual pvp.

Not starting the age old Tram/Fel back and forth just stating a fact that has been proved time and time again in the MMO world. Do you actually think WoW would have millions of subscribers if pvp was non-consentual?

Anyway there is always that one class du jour in PvP and until it gets nerfed you gotta change or get steamrolled. Its true in all MMO's with PvP not just this one.

 

[Ender]

PvP in this game has been unbalanced for one reason or another since day 1 in 1997. First it was connection....now its tamers. Fact is most people dont go to Fel. Trammel was created because a large majority of people simply do not enjoy non-consentual pvp.

Not starting the age old Tram/Fel back and forth just stating a fact that has been proved time and time again in the MMO world. Do you actually think WoW would have millions of subscribers if pvp was non-consentual?

Anyway there is always that one class du jour in PvP and until it gets nerfed you gotta change or get steamrolled. Its true in all MMO's with PvP not just this one.

Guild Wars has always been pretty balanced tbh.

 

[UOKaiser]

Since greater dragons came out and someone invented the dismount archer tamer temp the game has got stupid to me. If you play in fel and arn't some trash tamer with a dragon you know what i'm talking about.

After being ganked by nothing but dismount tamers for the past year or so pvp is no longer fun to me. You go out get dismounted and die in the blink of a eye to some tamer who is already gone away in llama form from a dragon.

Or a squad of people riding dreads heck all it takes is a dismount and all kill with a prep'd dread and your dead. Fun times right?

I got a idea lets nerf archer or mages some more . . .

The pvp scene is a complete unbalance 10 non tamers versus 10 dismount tamers and every one that is against the tamers die I don't care who you are.

1 on 1 is just a sob story lets fight the dismounter with a dragon one on one oo wait I got dismounted the guy said all kill and is now in llama form or dog form and gone oo darn I got stuck on a tree - dead, darn time to sit out twenty min and not have fun.

And just soooo many others its just come to the point pvp is stupid. It's not team play its who has more tamers.

Me and 9 other people that I know of are quitting the game, SA or not.
I have seen alot of unbalanced gameplay in UO but tamers are the worst, people won't play UO anymore because of the tamers - people won't return because of tamers. Anyways this isn't a rant its a hope that it gets fixed within the next 26 days.

Wait are you showing a picture of 3 tamers against one guy and it takes 3 tamers to kill him? Wouldn't that mean that the 1 guy is overpowerd so much that 1 tamer can't take him down let alone 2 but needs 3? I know what you getting at but just needed to point that one picture and comment out.

 

[Berethrain]

Wait are you showing a picture of 3 tamers against one guy and it takes 3 tamers to kill him? Wouldn't that mean that the 1 guy is overpowerd so much that 1 tamer can't take him down let alone 2 but needs 3?

Stupid Post of the Day.

 

[Viper09]

Wait are you showing a picture of 3 tamers against one guy and it takes 3 tamers to kill him? Wouldn't that mean that the 1 guy is overpowerd so much that 1 tamer can't take him down let alone 2 but needs 3?

Stupid Post of the Day.

On the contrary. If it takes 3 then clearly either the tamers suck or he's just good. Your post gets your own reward though.

But to get back on topic.

 

[Berethrain]

On the contrary. If it takes 3 then clearly either the tamers suck or he's just good. Your post gets your own reward though.

It's clearly a gank. Stupid Post of the Day #2. Congrats.

 

[Viper09]

It's clearly a gank. Stupid Post of the Day #2. Congrats.

So you're are absolutely sure he couldn't handle that one tamer by himself? lmao

 

[popps]

Bah, PvP messed up gets no symphathy from me as this is a natural consequence of wanting the game shift balance away from skills and towards items and modifiers.......

It seems that all the hype of wanting to make that uber super mega giga template with all the best mods and a salad of skills thanking to +skill items is giving its fruits now.

Everything is getting messed up from PvM to PvP.

Oh well, the plant that grows depends on the seeds that were sown........

 

[Poo]

Since greater dragons came out and someone invented the dismount archer tamer temp

that was me.
i did it.
sorry.

but i was doing it years before the greater dragons came along.
infact i dont even use greater dragons.
i use a beetle mare combo.

but what i have to ask is this;

when is anything fair?
if you roll around in a guild of 5 stealth archers and gank people.
is that fair?
if your in a guild of mages and you guys roll around with a necro dropping corpse skin then 4 flame strikes instantlly land... is that fair?

i personally see no difference in any of it.
its fel.
you live or you die.
if you die, do something different.

personally id rather fight one tamer with a greater dragon then a good mage or a dex monkey.
but thats just me.

maybe re-evaluate your tactics?

 

[Yalp]

I'd also be ok with firebreath not being able to hit you from half the map away...it's rediculous.

This is a problem. It has been acknowledged as such by the dev's and we all await a fix. I don't expect one anytime soon with all attention to SA. I also don't expect a fix anytime soon to the rampant scripting, hacking and cheating in pvp either.

I also don't subscribe to your philosophy that only some templates are worthy, authorized or allowable to pvp with. It's a game, templates are just tools.. use some, use all or don't use any.. it's your call.. that's what choice is all about. And I love choice!

 

[Berethrain]

So you're are absolutely sure he couldn't handle that one tamer by himself? lmao

 

[Viper09]

that was me.
i did it.
sorry.

but i was doing it years before the greater dragons came along.
infact i dont even use greater dragons.
i use a beetle mare combo.

but what i have to ask is this;

when is anything fair?
if you roll around in a guild of 5 stealth archers and gank people.
is that fair?
if your in a guild of mages and you guys roll around with a necro dropping corpse skin then 4 flame strikes instantlly land... is that fair?

i personally see no difference in any of it.
its fel.
you live or you die.
if you die, do something different.

personally id rather fight one tamer with a greater dragon then a good mage or a dex monkey.
but thats just me.

maybe re-evaluate your tactics?

Oh!
Don't forget the classic x-field trap
Also the evil omen + para combo.

 

[Viper09]

So you're are absolutely sure he couldn't handle that one tamer by himself? lmao

Yeah, didn't think you would actually admit that you don't know.

 

[Berethrain]

I also don't subscribe to your philosophy that only some templates are worthy, authorized or allowable to pvp with. It's a game, templates are just tools.. use some, use all or don't use any.. it's your call.. that's what choice is all about. And I love choice!

You must not pvp.

 

[Berethrain]

Originally Posted by Berethrain
Quote:
So you're are absolutely sure he couldn't handle that one tamer by himself? lmao



Yeah, didn't think you would actually admit that you don't know.

No, I just couldn't come straight out and call you an idiot.

 

[Endrik]

After being ganked by nothing but dismount tamers for the past year or so pvp is no longer fun to me.

The pvp scene is a complete unbalance 10 non tamers versus 10 dismount tamers and every one that is against the tamers die I don't care who you are.

And just soooo many others its just come to the point pvp is stupid. It's not team play its who has more tamers.

Me and 9 other people that I know of are quitting the game, SA or not.

LoL... Translation...

"Im no longer King of the Hill, so UO is no longer a good game. Its not fair that other people are killing me now... Im supposed to be the one who kills everybody else... waaaaaaaa"

Dude, grow up. Now you know what everyone else has felt like forever. Are we really supposed to feel sorry for you because a different (and harder to build) template now has more power then what you are running? So these "losers" spend more time training Taming, and now have a stronger build... one thats actually viable in PvP, and your mad cause now your the one eatin dirt?

Sorry man, but I just dont feel anything for you at all. And for the record I do PvP and not with a Tamer.

 

[UOKaiser]

I just love messing with ya.
Seriously though that picture is a bad example of overpowering. Nobody is expected to win against 3 pvp tamers,mages,dexters,or whatever. If they do then they really got lucky or his skill is so great and they suck so much but no matter what it would be a fight up there to remmember . Running and surviving from it well thats normaly possible exept in this case them being dismount players it makes it extremly rough..

Examples of overpowering are when one guy can take down multiple opponents with np almost everytime. No matter how good or bad his opponents are. That would be a better example.
When fighting against a tamer you must disable there weapon and go after the player. Easier said than done but plenty of ways to do that depending of the type of template each one has. Though 1 on 1 with tamers if your character is not built to take down tamers you will be at a disavantage.

I always consider a tamer as 2 people. 1 powerful but dumb and the other weak but smart. Using that to my advantage. Can't win all the time but oh well not suppose to. Just like I consider any one with a extra summons or animal at there disposal as 2 players no matter how easy or hard it is to dispose of the added player aka pet or summon.
Plenty of people will disagree with this assesment or agree but this is the point of view i've made for myself when I pvp. Haven't had any disapointments from it. To each there own.

 

[Alezi]

Here's some solutions:
1) Cap pet damage in PvP
2) Make pets stop when they are casting spells
3) Fix pets so that they won't cast spells/firebreath to a target that's 6 screens away
4) Remove tamers

Lets see how long it takes for the noobies to crawl out from their holes and start defending their best weapon - the "All Kill" command.

 

[Vyal]

The point is I play on a shard where nearly every player is a dismount tamer there is no pvp anymore unless it has dragons or dreads, get it?

 

[The Fallout]

Make a discord/peace character, or fight back with a tamer. What can I say. No one tries to be clever when fighting tamers in fel. They just whine and cry like little girls. I do agree that tamers should be toned down in pvp, other then that change your template. Or make a new character.

3) Fix pets so that they won't cast spells/firebreath to a target that's 6 screens away

This should definitely be fixed.

 

[Alezi]

Make a discord/peace character, or fight back with a tamer. What can I say. No one tries to be clever when fighting tamers in fel. They just whine and cry like little girls. I do agree that tamers should be toned down in pvp, other then that change your template. Or make a new character.



This should definitely be fixed.

Try to Para pet only to find out it's resisting spells has been trained -> stops for 2sec. Running around houses trying to get it stuck to stairs -> oh wait, 70 dmg Firebreath through the wall. Bring a friend and try to gank the tamer -> llama form, awayy!

 

[Taylor]

I don't want to nerf tamers. However, it'd be kinda cool if bards could provo pets onto their masters.

 

[Maximus Neximus]

Here's some solutions:
1) Cap pet damage in PvP
2) Make pets stop when they are casting spells
3) Fix pets so that they won't cast spells/firebreath to a target that's 6 screens away
4) Remove tamers

Lets see how long it takes for the noobies to crawl out from their holes and start defending their best weapon - the "All Kill" command.

I'd be ok with 1-3. Each pet may need a different cap since (I may be wrong) they cast at different speeds.

 

[Berethrain]

Would you like some candy? Please, step into my van.

 

[dukarlo]

EA doesnt care. EA is putting all its resources into another half assed expansion based on more mods will further imbalance things. After 6 months to a year of fixing everything that is literaly broken(half ass at that) some kind of weak pvp balance will come out that will do little to actually appease people that have pvped long term. After that speed hacks and other pvp cheats will still be the norm. Only when people start canceling accounts will it compute with EA. How long did we have to deal with 5/6 mages? Stealth archers? Word of Death? Machine gun archers(still dealing with em), Super Dragons(game is still zookeeper online) Speedhacking(you cant kill what you cant catch and it is now the norm). Im sure im forgetting quite a few lame things we have dealt with or are still dealing with but the point is EA does not care as long as we still give them our cash.

 

[Poo]

Here's some solutions:
1) Cap pet damage in PvP
2) Make pets stop when they are casting spells
3) Fix pets so that they won't cast spells/firebreath to a target that's 6 screens away
4) Remove tamers

Lets see how long it takes for the noobies to crawl out from their holes and start defending their best weapon - the "All Kill" command.

i like number 4

but it dosnt go far enough!!!!

i think we should remove all mages and dexers from pvp as well.
also anyone holding or thinking of holding or who has held a mage weapon.
oh, and anyone with legs, cant have those buggers running around.
and arms. with or without fingers on the end, i dont wanna seem like im singling fingerless people out.
ohhhhhh, and anyone who goes into fel!!!!
definatlly cant have any of them in pvp.

that should about cover it.

 

[Llewen]

Good grief, go away for a year, come back and the "hard core" pvp'rs are crying about the same things they were when I left. I used to play a pvp tamer, before they became all the rage. I stopped when greater dragons came out because everyone started doing it, and I don't like following the crowd.

There are plenty of ways to combat a tamer, but you can't use the same tactics with a tamer that you use against other templates. If you do, you will lose. I'll give you one hint for free though. If your guild keeps running into groups of tamers, make a habit of bringing a bard along. Bards are the great equalizer when it comes to pets, and both discord and peace are extremely effective against pets.

 

[ElRay]

Oh!
Don't forget the classic x-field trap
Also the evil omen + para combo.

Really??

Trapped box 4thewin.

 

[ElRay]

There are plenty of ways to combat a tamer, but you can't use the same tactics with a tamer that you use against other templates. If you do, you will lose. I'll give you one hint for free though. If your guild keeps running into groups of tamers, make a habit of bringing a bard along. Bards are the great equalizer when it comes to pets, and both discord and peace are extremely effective against pets.

This.

 

[ElRay]

LoL... Translation...

"Im no longer King of the Hill, so UO is no longer a good game. Its not fair that other people are killing me now... Im supposed to be the one who kills everybody else... waaaaaaaa"

Dude, grow up.

Are we supposed to take this post seriously? You just went waaaaaaaaaaa, then told him to grow up.

Ok then.

 

[Viper09]

Oh!
Don't forget the classic x-field trap
Also the evil omen + para combo.

Really??

Trapped box 4thewin.

While that will work for getting out of the Evil Omen+Para, not everyone has one all the time

 

[Endrik]

Are we supposed to take this post seriously? You just went waaaaaaaaaaa, then told him to grow up.

Ok then.

Are you having trouble understanding quotations? Re-read my post... I said that was a translation of what he was saying.

 

[Pfloyd]

I don't want to nerf tamers. However, it'd be kinda cool if bards could provo pets onto their masters.

All that would do is make people hate bards and say they are over powered. why stop at provo? why not disco and peace affecting characters too?

Why doesn't someone make a template NOW using nothing but what skills we have and what they currently do? Wouldn't a discord/archer with all the backup skills music/chiv/tactics and a nice weapon take a GD down before it could get off its high damage firebreath? What is the damage someone with this template could do with just 1 hit? that 1 hit lowers the damage of any firebreath.

Is this a stupid idea?

Are people just wanting to be able to kill everyone with just 1 template excluding the "cheesy" dismount tamers?

 

[Taylor]

All that would do is make people hate bards and say they are over powered. why stop at provo? why not disco and peace affecting characters too?

Well, I think the distinction would be barding skills affecting pets versus barding skills affecting players, but I see your point.

I haven't often PvPed proper, but I spend at lot of time yew gating on Atlantic. Honestly, I don't see many tamers. Every now and then, I'll see a greater, but reds gravitate to these players likes moths to flame - blues aren't inclined to help these tamers, either. I'd never bring a greater to the yew gate - I'd be a walking target for 10+ folks.

I see a lotta necro/mages, a lotta ninja/archers, a few weaver/mages and a few dexxers. Occasionally a dismount/tamer will show, and very rarely, a mage/tamer with greater in tow.

Maybe its just Atlantic? Maybe just the yew gate?

 

[ElRay]

Are you having trouble understanding quotations? Re-read my post... I said that was a translation of what he was saying.

You interpreted his post by being childish, then told him to grow up.


He wasnt waaaaaa waaaaaing or weee weeeeing, he was making a point that inevitably, everyone soon will turn to using pvp tamers, aka his pic shots.

Geez, is it that hard to understand the point of his post?

 

[Vyal]

That is my point exactly UO pvp isn't what it used to be that is one thing that is for sure.
You have to understand I made a dismount tamer archer back when super drags came out to stop one ninja tamer with a greater. Ya I loved it I had so much fun dismounting everyone saying all kill then they would just die.
It was so fun making people mad they would get so mad and say all you tamer you suck blah blah blah. Looking back I was a vet but now I feel like such a noob, back then I could have spent my time playing one of my many real temps (before fel became flooded with dragons) but I played my instant kill no skill needed temp just to make people mad. Now one dismount tamer archer was bad enough but I never thought it would be so 80% of all the people who pvp play one. Now a days your lucky to go out and get into a fight that lasts 5 min before the dragon death brigade comes in dismounts you and thats it game over for twenty min.

There is alot of ways to fix it, I liked some of the ideas like make it so pets need to stop moving to cast, putting a range on how far they can actually cast, really need like a 25hp dmg cap not 35 like I have been hearing think about it still 35 dmg coming from something that can eat you in two bites plus cast flamestrike ebolts poison and bleed in about 5 seconds, dreads need to go away period or at least make them available to everyone.
The biggest thing needs to be for factions, make it so pets can't put you in stat loss. I don't know how other shards are on this but for a while on mine the guy with the most factions points on the shard was a ninja tamer in a darkwood suit with no offense but a dragon.

For the record I deleted that tamer and gave away my dragons.

 

[Llewen]

Trapped box 4thewin.

While that will work for getting out of the Evil Omen+Para, not everyone has one all the time

You call yourself a pvp'r? If you intend to pvp, you should always have a trapped box. In fact, I'll go one better, if you go to Felucca, you should always carry a trapped box.

I haven't often PvPed proper, but I spend at lot of time yew gating on Atlantic. Honestly, I don't see many tamers.

Now a days your lucky to go out and get into a fight that lasts 5 min before the dragon death brigade comes in dismounts you and thats it game over for twenty min.

I don't know this guy, and I haven't been in game for over a year - but I will hopefully be back in soon. Having said that, my guess is that this is just the same nonsense that has always gone on with tamers. I'm thinking that what Syrus says is closer to the truth, and Vyal just doesn't like tamers, and is trying to get them out of the game.

Why do I say this? Because this is exactly the same thing that has been posted many times, and it has never been true. Sure, you can post a screen shot with four tamers in it, but I could just as easily post a screen shot with a dozen dexxers, or half a dozen mages, and no tamers in site.

My guess is that if you were to objectively analyze pvp across the shards, tamers would be one of the less common templates. I could be wrong, I haven't been in game for awhile, but this sounds an awful lot like the same story I've read dozens of times in years past.

 

[Alezi]

Well there's quite a lot of tamer temps floating around. Greater Dragon dismounter who has Ninjitsu for survivability (make animal form take up 1 control slot?), Dread WH tamermages, Dread WH dismount archers, Cu Sidhe/Hiryu+orc brute bushparrydexers and the list goes on..

 

[Old Man of UO]

Re: Well my time has come . . .

One very unpopular idea that was put forth some time back to combat this problem, was to have no bonded pets in Fel. You can fight with a Dragon all you want to, but when he's killed, he's gone, just like the old days.

Pets in Fel won't bond, pets taken to Fel become unbonded...Kinda puts more risk in the tamer pvp'er...

Maybe time for this idea to get looked at yet again.

This was a very stupid idea when it was first proposed, and not that I've had time to think about it, it's still stupid. That's like using a sledge hammer to drive a tack... it would work, but is the wrong tool and would do too much damage.

My issue... my house is in Felucca, and I gather resources in Felucca, and dungeon crawl there now and again. But I don't PvP. Under your proposal, if I go out with my fire beetle to collect ingots and get PK'd, I'd permanently lose my pet when it gets killed. So I get punished because PvP isn't balanced in other places. Way overkill.

I'm not saying that PvP doesn't need balancing, just this isn't they way to do it.

 

[Splup]

Well there's quite a lot of tamer temps floating around. Greater Dragon dismounter who has Ninjitsu for survivability (make animal form take up 1 control slot?), Dread WH tamermages, Dread WH dismount archers, Cu Sidhe/Hiryu+orc brute bushparrydexers and the list goes on..

Yeap. G dragons are just small part of a LOT bigger problem. Pets just do too much damage in PvP. When we get outnumbered we take out tamers... Why? Cause then we can fight a bigger group since pets just dump like hell even when we focus on keeping ourselves alive.

Pets need like 50 % damage nerf when hitting a player or something...

 

[Llewen]

Yeap. G dragons are just small part of a LOT bigger problem. Pets just do too much damage in PvP. When we get outnumbered we take out tamers... Why? Cause then we can fight a bigger group since pets just dump like hell even when we focus on keeping ourselves alive.

Pets need like 50 % damage nerf when hitting a player or something...

I'm a bit confused. You are upset because you are losing battles when you are outnumbered and some of them are tamers?

Yes pets mana dump like crazy, especially the good ones, but they make up for it by being incredibly stupid in so many other ways. There really are almost as many ways to fight a tamer as there are tamers. You just have to use your brains, and not go fight on autopilot.

And what follows is just an example of the kind of misinformation that players that hate tamers spread.

1 on 1 is just a sob story lets fight the dismounter with a dragon one on one oo wait I got dismounted the guy said all kill and is now in llama form or dog form and gone oo darn I got stuck on a tree - dead, darn time to sit out twenty min and not have fun.

Last I checked ninja animal forms use a control slot, so you can't use a greater dragon if you intend to use ninja animal forms. And this is also a fine example of what I mean by changing tactics. Bolas take ninjas out of animal form. So just get used to carrying a bola or two. They are easy to make, and not very expensive to buy.

Dread WH tamermages..

I'm proud to say I was one of the first, if not the first tamer using a dread warhorse in pvp on my shard. I also know, from experience, that it wasn't "easy mode". I've played a dexxer, and a mage tamer, quite extensively in pvp, and without a doubt my mage tamer was the much more complex and challenging of the two templates to pvp with.

 

[DARTH_VADER]

I have heard that slayer properties on weapons and spellbooks are going to do more damage to pets in pvp in an upcoming patch, this would help if its true and im nto sure when its supposed to happen if at all.

 

[Old Man of UO]

I have heard that slayer properties on weapons and spellbooks are going to do more damage to pets in pvp in an upcoming patch, this would help if its true and im nto sure when its supposed to happen if at all.

Might be a good idea, but do you have a link, or are you just spreading a rumor?

 

[DARTH_VADER]

Might be a good idea, but do you have a link, or are you just spreading a rumor?

no this was something i was told by a guildmate of mine, if anyone else has a link or can verify this that would be good

 

[Llewen]

I have heard that slayer properties on weapons and spellbooks are going to do more damage to pets in pvp in an upcoming patch, this would help if its true and im nto sure when its supposed to happen if at all.

Might be a good idea, but do you have a link, or are you just spreading a rumor?

Unless something has changed, slayers already provide the same kind of damage bonus against pets as they do against mobs (ie. dragon slayers, reptile slayers, beetle slayers, pixie swatters, etc.).

Again, exactly what I was talking about when I was saying there are many ways to deal with tamers in pvp, you just can't expect to use the tactics against a tamer that you use against other templates.

And quite frankly, it's the same with any template. Every template has tactics that are more or less effective against it. We're back to the same thing. There are pvp'rs who simply want pets out of pvp, and many who want them out of the game altogether.

They don't want to lose to them, ever, even if they are outnumbered, or the tamer is a better, more intelligent pvp'r than they are. This debate is rarely about fairness, it is most often about prejudice and misinformation.