Effects of RMT - A case study from another game world

[Amber Moon]

i think everyone understands the deep reaching effects of Real Money Trades (RMT) in UO.... from scripting to Felucia spawn control.

One game company has taken a stand and have made public the results...

For the better part of 2009, we here at CCP have been formulating new strategies to address the issue that all persistent services on the Internet ultimately face, i.e. the data persisted in our systems has meaning to people and everything that has meaning has value. Frankly speaking this has been something that we have been strategizing about since 2004. Even though we have throughout the years kept the Real Money Trading element at bay with manual actions from our game masters, we have always realized that this is a bigger issue that needs to be addressed with innovation and thoughtfulness. As early as 2005, we came up with the seed which was later released in November 2008 as the Pilot's License Extension(PLEX). It has had many names through the years such as 28days and CCP Points, and it has been refined and iterated to the point that it is accepted by you, our players, as something that adds value to EVE and that is something we care deeply about.

The rest of the article can be found here...http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=687

 

[Stupid Miner]

Wonder if UO could implement this system... They'd have to first create an artificial "scarcity" of gold: every stack of gold, check, vendor prices, gold on vendors, monster gold drops, insurance costs--everything that has anything to do with gold--is divided by 10 rounded up. Then they could sell gold at 10$ per million.

I doubt they'll do it, not even sure if they can.

 

[Leto]

Impressive!

I hope that one day EA/Mythic will do the same. Down with RMT!

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

RMT is a wonderful scapegoat isn't it?

Go after cheaters, exploiters, and dupers. Provide a heavily moderated safe harbor for RMT transactions.

The problem is NOT RMT in and of itself, but its use as an outlet of profit for exploting... in which case the symptom that everyone sees are RMT transactions while the real PROBLEM is exploiting. People have been exploiting longer and for more reasons than RMT profit.

Case in point: Player A "gives" 100,000,000 gold to Player B. We could have several possibilities of why this happened, but let's take two and determine which is more and which is less an honest transaction:

Possibility 1: Player A through legitimate gameplay earned the 100,000,000 gold and sold it to Player B for an amount of real money. (What the game sees: Player A builds up 100,000,000 gold and transfers that gold to player B)

Possibility 2: Player A dupes either gold or items in order to sell for gold to reach 100,000,000 gold. As a "newbie giveaway", with much fanfare, he gives the 100,000,000 gold to Player B for free. (What the game sees: Player A exploits up to 100,000,000 gold and transfers that gold to player B)

Now which is more or less honest? Possibility 1 or Possibility 2? Which does actual harm to the game?

EA/M should NEVER sell gold for RMT themselves as it is in effect duping or creating gold from nothing above and beyond the standard output of ingame gold. In Possibility 1, the player must obtain the gold through normal gameplay, thus the gold is legitimately gained. Possibility 2 and EA/M selling gold creates gold OUTSIDE of the system, thus dumps excess into the marketplace.

Personally, I detest being able to x-shard items (especially shard history specific items) MUCH MORE than RMT.

 

[Stupid Miner]

People who are going to be duping the most are the ones who can continually profit from it. Is there any difference between 1 billion and 10 billion UO gold in terms of usefulness in-game? You can buy everything... or you can buy everything 10 times over.

Those ridiculously high amounts of gold can only really be useful if the duper sells them.

Of course people are still going to dupe, but at least this change gets rid of the people who do it the most.

The duper's supply = the people's demands.
EA's supply = the people's demands.
The duper's supply = EA's supply

No net increase!

 

[JC the Builder]

i think everyone understands the deep reaching effects of Real Money Trades (RMT) in UO.... from scripting to Felucia spawn control.

Our guild controlled the spawns on Atlantic for years and there was never anything tied to RMT about it. Maybe some members were selling scrolls for cash but we didn't do it for that. We did it for fun. I think maybe at one point we were trying to control prices a bit, but that was based off of gold and not cash.

You can't point to someone controlling spawns and say they did it for money. I think these groups actually were on the smallest shards and just transferred their goods to shards which had the most buyers.

 

[Amber Moon]

The problem is NOT RMT in and of itself, but its use as an outlet of profit for exploting... in which case the symptom that everyone sees are RMT transactions while the real PROBLEM is exploiting. People have been exploiting longer and for more reasons than RMT profit

Yes, people have always exploited in games and always will, especially in the more competitive aspects of gameplay. But you don't think RL cash is a strong incentive that drives a good portion of the BOTs and scripting?

Notice that they didn't attack the cash transactions and ISK (gold) transfer directly as much as chasing down the accounts where the activity was creating ISK through long hours of play. They targeted accounts based upon character behaviors.

 

[Amber Moon]

You can point to someone controlling spawns and say they did it for money. I think these groups actually were on the smallest shards and just transferred their goods to shards which had the most buyers.

I understand that probably most of the spawn control is legitimate but if I am not mistaken there was a written account by a guild leader within the last few years admitting to just such activity.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Is it an incentive? Certainly, but so is "being the richest person in UO" or whatever other goal you can have. The incentive isn't the problem though.

You're NOT going to stop RMT sales in an online game... you just AREN'T. Sure you can ban them, we ALL know how well that does (because there are NO RMT sales happening in WoW ), but again, you're banning an EXTERNAL process. The game does NOT EVER see the exchange of real cash taking place. To the game, someone selling something RMT then handing off the sold item is NO DIFFERENT than giving the item from player A to player B. Thus the PROBLEM does not lie in the trading, it lies in the actual exploiting.

Punish the ACTION, not the incentive.

 

[Stupid Miner]

...

Is it an incentive? Certainly, but so is "being the richest person in UO" or whatever other goal you can have. The incentive isn't the problem though.

You're NOT going to stop RMT sales in an online game... you just AREN'T. Sure you can ban them, we ALL know how well that does (because there are NO RMT sales happening in WoW ), but again, you're banning an EXTERNAL process. The game does NOT EVER see the exchange of real cash taking place. To the game, someone selling something RMT then handing off the sold item is NO DIFFERENT than giving the item from player A to player B. Thus the PROBLEM does not lie in the trading, it lies in the actual exploiting.

Punish the ACTION, not the incentive.

So? Who cares if they stop 100% or 80%? Even 50% is a heckuva lot better than 0%

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

The only people that bans against RMT stop are those who tend to follow the rules, thus who is left in the RMT market? The exploiters.

So which is worse honest gameplayers wanting to cash in a few buck extra either to pay their subscription or some other reason (including not too terribly long ago in UO, charity based purposes), or the exploiter making a living on scripting and duping to sell resources?

You want to stop the RMT that everyone hates, go after the exploiters for exploiting... it's very simple to understand (harder to implement, but more effective in the long run).

 

[Stupid Miner]

Er... why would you think this would only affect the "honest" people. The dupers sell their gold, track their information and ban them.

And isn't this about selling gold at or lower than the market value so that dupers can't make a decent profit out of it anymore?

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

That I'm against not due to any market outcome, but because it would be EA FLOODING the game with gold created from nothing. It in effect blows the entire purpose of the ideal of a "standard inflow of gold" right out the window. Instead of a gold "faucet", you have a constant gold tsunami.

It's basically the same thing as duping or scripting, it's just EA doing it simply making gold out of thin air and is just as bad for the game as duping regardless of any effect on an external market.

 

[Stupid Miner]

...

That I'm against not due to any market outcome, but because it would be EA FLOODING the game with gold created from nothing. It in effect blows the entire purpose of the ideal of a "standard inflow of gold" right out the window. Instead of a gold "faucet", you have a constant gold tsunami.

It's basically the same thing as duping or scripting, it's just EA doing it simply making gold out of thin air and is just as bad for the game as duping regardless of any effect on an external market.

See above quasi-mathematical equation.

It's basically the same thing as duping or scripting, it's just EA doing it simply making gold out of thin air.

You're right! it is! One key difference: UO is profiting, not cheaters.

And by the way... the game already is flooded with gold.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

It's EA profiting at the expense of the game, the same as cheaters. Frankly both ways are wrong in terms of game economy balance regardless of who gets paid.

 

[Basara]

Gold RMT and Duping are legs of a modern triangle trade system that is in some ways as vile as the 18th century one if you consider the people being exploited to man gold-farming operations as slaves.

Dupes & illegally gained codes (CC fraud) are sold for Real money and in-game gold.

That gold is sold in RMT

Much of the money goes for profit, with some of it going to fund the operations' employees. The rest goes to buy more things to dupe, and pay for the account operations that enable the duping through their exploits.

 

[Stupid Miner]

...

It's EA profiting at the expense of the game, the same as cheaters. Frankly both ways are wrong in terms of game economy balance regardless of who gets paid.

Precisely. To put this not-at-all-hypothetically: you can choose one or the other, not neither. Pick

@ Basara: Ummm... yea... not gonna touch that first paragraph with a 10 foot stick.

 

[Basara]

The people "playing" at the foreign gold farming operations are typically paid even less than the clothing factory jobs that the human rights people are always screaming are practically slave labor - so it's hardly a stretch. Exploitation is exploitation.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

you can choose one or the other, not neither.

Incorrect.

You do not do the one and you investigate and get rid of as many doing the other as possible.

You don't solve anything by becoming what you're trying to get rid of.

See I see the exploiters as harming the game based on what they do IN THE GAME. What they do with the ill gotten games OUTSIDE the game is meaningless in terms of what is happening with the INGAME systems.

RMT just makes a good scapegoat because "profit" has become a "bad word". It's become verboten for anyone to profit be it ingame or in many ways in real life these days. The real evil of envious greed/covetousness of other people's profit leads to mindsets like this, where people think it's ok for EA to destroy the ingame economy to in theory slow down or stop an out of game activity.

As long as someone gains something in game legitimately, it's not up to me, you, the OP, or anyone else except that person and the person they deal with on what they do with that item, or what they accept in exchange for that item, nor is it our right to judge them based on how they exchange the item to another player.

Two wrongs (duping/creating gold from nothing) do NOT make a right, nor does one prevent the other. Get rid of the exploiters and let the free market be a free and equitible market.

I'm going to vehemently disagree on free market morals against the blanket derision of RMT always, regardless of who posts it (even the devs).

Get rid of the exploiters, regardless of what their incentives may be. Leave the free market alone.

Again, if they want to put the effort into it, provide a heavily moderated account bound marketplace outside the game that offers both RMT and ingame trading, then use it to investigate anyone who posts transactions beyond what can be considered normal and if they are exploiting, then get rid of them.

Destroying the economy in an attempt to destory RMT exploters only serves to destory the game as a whole and solves NOTHING.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Basara, you're speaking of a real life labor issue in a country that UO nor the country in which it originates has any jurisdiction. As long as the players are attended and respond to GMs if paged on, there's really nothing that can be done about it.

You are, however, free if you so desire to petition the Chinese government to crack down on these operations, though I doubt that will get you anywhere considering that UO is by far NOT the only US based economic system they are undermining. I work in the numismatic field (rare coins) and Chinese fakes are a HUGE problem both in terms of coins themselves and even as far as the certified holders that companies like the one I work for put coins into.

 

[XLaCeDX]

Omg, I wanna marry CCP.


Beautiful! Just beautiful!

 

[XLaCeDX]

...

you can choose one or the other, not neither.

Incorrect.

You do not do the one and you investigate and get rid of as many doing the other as possible.

You don't solve anything by becoming what you're trying to get rid of.

See I see the exploiters as harming the game based on what they do IN THE GAME. What they do with the ill gotten games OUTSIDE the game is meaningless in terms of what is happening with the INGAME systems.

RMT just makes a good scapegoat because "profit" has become a "bad word". It's become verboten for anyone to profit be it ingame or in many ways in real life these days. The real evil of envious greed/covetousness of other people's profit leads to mindsets like this, where people think it's ok for EA to destroy the ingame economy to in theory slow down or stop an out of game activity.

As long as someone gains something in game legitimately, it's not up to me, you, the OP, or anyone else except that person and the person they deal with on what they do with that item, or what they accept in exchange for that item, nor is it our right to judge them based on how they exchange the item to another player.

Two wrongs (duping/creating gold from nothing) do NOT make a right, nor does one prevent the other. Get rid of the exploiters and let the free market be a free and equitible market.

I'm going to vehemently disagree on free market morals against the blanket derision of RMT always, regardless of who posts it (even the devs).

Get rid of the exploiters, regardless of what their incentives may be. Leave the free market alone.

Again, if they want to put the effort into it, provide a heavily moderated account bound marketplace outside the game that offers both RMT and ingame trading, then use it to investigate anyone who posts transactions beyond what can be considered normal and if they are exploiting, then get rid of them.

Destroying the economy in an attempt to destory RMT exploters only serves to destory the game as a whole and solves NOTHING.

"As long as someone gains something in game legitimately..."



Herein lies the problem with RMT of virtual world items.


The L word...


I once asked a gold seller on Pac, (who at that time had 564 pieces of uber samurai armor for sale on his Luna vendors, all with his name on it, (street value $1500) if he could earn $5000 real money by cheating in UO and be reasonably sure he'd never get caught, if he'd do it.


Ask anyone in UO or any other online game that question.


The "L" word gets Tee Kay Ohed when it comes to money honey.

 

[Stupid Miner]

The people "playing" at the foreign gold farming operations are typically paid even less than the clothing factory jobs that the human rights people are always screaming are practically slave labor - so it's hardly a stretch. Exploitation is exploitation.

Exploitation =/= Slavery. Now let's stop derailing this topic.

 

[Stupid Miner]

...

you can choose one or the other, not neither.

Incorrect.

You do not do the one and you investigate and get rid of as many doing the other as possible.

Theoretically you're right. Practically you're wrong. We both know that the Devs have neither the time nor the resources to hunt down exploiters and dupers at this time. If they did, it would be done.

You don't solve anything by becoming what you're trying to get rid of.

You mean forcing dupers out of business doesn't solve anything? And I suppose making a decent profit for UO doesn't solve anything either. And doing both of those at the same time is so worthless i can't believe that thought could cross anyone's mind.

See I see the exploiters as harming the game based on what they do IN THE GAME. What they do with the ill gotten games OUTSIDE the game is meaningless in terms of what is happening with the INGAME systems

The people who dupe for profit don't care about the game they care about the profit. Take away the profit, and they're gone to the next game they can exploit for a better profit. Sure it's not 100% of the dupers, but it's a large amount.

RMT just makes a good scapegoat because "profit" has become a "bad word". It's become verboten for anyone to profit be it ingame or in many ways in real life these days. The real evil of envious greed/covetousness of other people's profit leads to mindsets like this, where people think it's ok for EA to destroy the ingame economy to in theory slow down or stop an out of game activity.

You're missing it. The economy is already destroyed. The supply meets the demand no matter who's controlling it. It's a lot better to have the person controlling the supply using it to further benefit UO.

... and the rest of the post seems to be reiterations.

 

[Tomas_Bryce]

Day EA starts selling gold is when I am quitting. I am not going to play a game where you can officially buy your way through everything in game with $'s. EA should be going after the gold sellers and banning them. Not becoming a gold seller themselves.

People who have no qualms buying gold from exploiters will continue to buy gold at rates lower than EA rates.

Enough said.

 

[HD2300]

RMT is bad for UO.

If gold and item brokers can make a profit from it after they paying EA for their accounts, it means the EA can make even more profit from selling gold and powerscrolls etc themselves directly.

The more profitable UO is, the more likely EA will employ additional UO staff to develop content.

 

[HD2300]

Day EA starts selling gold is when I am quitting. I am not going to play a game where you can officially buy your way through everything in game with $'s.

You can indirectly already. Just go to uogamecodes. Buy transfer tokens, charger of fallen, soulstones, dyes then trade for what you want be it gold or gear or powerscrolls.