Thoughts on Using Axes

[Barl DeAbreago]

So, having been curious for a while, as I seem to remember someone fairly recently saying LJ was still worthwhile, and seeing the recent FOF, I did some tests on test center.

The set up was fairly simple - 40 hci/100 dam inc/ 120 swords/tact/anat and +/- 100 LJ.

Using ornates and exec axes with high ssi/damage increase/ and hci.

I wasn't so much worried about hit spells or any of that as that is easy to calculate.

It's been a few days now so I forget what my numbers were exactly, but never once in all of my adjustments did I see more than an increase of one damage with LJ over the max damage of an axe without LJ.

Can anyone confirm this or was I doing something wrong? I understand there are a million ways to increase your damage output with bush/chiv/necro whatever...but at the base of all that it shouldn't matter.

I cannot see how spending 100 points on LJ is at all viable for PVP or PVM.

I guess as someone who does both, it just seems like the better way to go would be bush/chiv or even straight bush without LJ, as even the 60 necro could give you better damage than that.

 

[Lynk]

I run a necro/lumberjack.

I'll admit I never tested dmg without LJ, just going for max possible damage when I swing that ornate after a corpse skin. Most I've hit for was 67 the other day with the ornate crushing blow. I did also corpse/disarm someone and did a doublestrike with a different axe I have, 37 dmg swings plus 2 hit lightnings went off.

I was pretty disappointed to learn the DI bonus was only 10. I may tweak that build to a bushido/parry of sorts.

 

[Kazumi the Wild]

I don't know if the formula is correct or not, but stratics lists the damage increase as 30% for the whole 100 Lumberjacking - 2% for every 10 points of skill, and an extra 10% when you reach 100.

From the sounds of things, that formula got tweaked?

 

[Lynk]

Well the FOF it says:

What is the actual damage increase in combat when you have 100 lumberjacking skill? Is it still 30-35% damage incerase like it was in renaissance or was it reduced to the same damage increase as inscription; 10-15%?

Lumberjack provides a damage bonus of +10% at GM.
–Leurocian

I read that as a 10% DMG INC bonus over all.

 

[Barl DeAbreago]

Yeah I took it to mean just a 10% dmg bonus as well.

LJ was always fun back in the day, no matter how cheap or skill-less it might of been. A part of me does miss using axes so I've recently been looking into doing so on a character again.

But perhaps it isn't really a matter of tweaking the warrior all that differently than any other warrior these days, just the weapon and the mods.

Thanks for the feedback, let me know if anyone else sees anything different than I have.

 

[Connor_Graham]

I read that as a 10% DMG INC bonus over all.

And you guys doubted me when I said it was 10% a while back.

 

[Farsight]

Tests just completed:
Against an opponent with 0 wrestling and 70 physical resist, using an exceptional ornate axe:
1. With 50 str, 100 tactics, 100 anatomy: 15-17 damage
2. With 125 str, 100 tactics, 100 anatomy: 16-18 damage
3. 50 str, 100 tactics, 100 anatomy, 100 lumberjack: 16-18 damage
4. 125 str, 100 tactics, 100 anatomy, 100 lumberjack: 18-20 damage

5. Same as test 4 but without tactics: 15-17 damage
6. Same as test 4 but without anatomy: 15-17 damage

(All tests match up with various stratics damage calculators as well, just FYI)

There are dozens of other combinations you could test, but this is enough to give the general idea. You can draw your own conclusions out of the information.

 

[Lynk]

Hmm.. I dunno... even if I drop LJ it would just be for more med and spirit. My defensive weakness vs archer ganks would remain. I'll just keep char as is just because I love 2 shot killing people.

I have well over 100 DI on this guy too btw. Like 84 before wep.

No LJ, no buffs. (20 tact/anat)

With LJ, no buffs.

With STR pot and Grapes of Wrath.

 

[Zodiac19]

Here's how it works: The DI at GM is 30% (2% per 10 skill points and the GM 10%) but ONLY to the base damage of the weapon. So and ornate axe has a base damage of 18-20 the bonus damage would be 6 max as all numbers are rounded down. When LJ first came out the LJ bonus was applied after all other DI calculations were done and the damage output was massive insane. So the BIG nerf stick was applied and we have what we have now. A skill to gather wood with but not good enough to put into a warrior template for damage output.....

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Anyone else notice having LJ allows you to hit players for over the pvp damage cap? I assume Lynk has since he said he two hits people. Just an observation, I have an lj warrior but I never pvped with him, on the other hand a friend does tend to hit me for 50+ damage easy with hers.

 

[Lynk]

Anyone else notice having LJ allows you to hit players for over the pvp damage cap? I assume Lynk has since he said he two hits people. Just an observation, I have an lj warrior but I never pvped with him, on the other hand a friend does tend to hit me for 50+ damage easy with hers.

Thats because there is no PvP damage cap... there is a cap on one special move - armor ignore. And that is capped at 35..

 

[Lefty]

OK Something is definitely Wrong here! I am working on an Axer myself and don't nearly have the skill points you invested, but I still have the same Damage Range. I think this needs a closer look at. It seems like nearly 40 points of skill isn't doing squat for damage.

See--

 

[Lynk]

That's messed up.. I have 120/120 tact/anat and you have 108.6 anat and 104 tactics yet your status bar lists the same dmg output as mine without LJ.

 

[Lefty]

Ya, not sure what is going on. I am on test now at new haven trying to figure this out.

 

[Lynk]

Well if tact/anat give no damage bonus over GM that would sure be nice to know... I know I could use the 40 skill points elsewhere.

 

[Lefty]

On test with the same stats I get a different value. Same str, 100 di, 108.6 and 104.2 I now get 66-74.

Either my char is bugged or something is wrong with either the skill damage or something with the DI items.

 

[Lefty]

Guess it was a bug. Logged back on the char and now it is 66-74. Odd..

 

[Farsight]

more tests:

default: ornate axe, 40% DI, 100 lumberjack, 100 anatomy, 100 tactics, 125 str
Damage against unarmored opponents = 62-69
Add 20 anatomy
Damage = 64-71
Add 20 tactics
Damage = 64-71
Total 90 tactics
Damage = 60-66
Total 90 anatomy
Damage = 60-67
Add 20 anatomy and 20 tactics
Damage = 66-73

This time I will give a conclusion:
100 tactics is a lot better than 90 tactics, same with anatomy
After 100, its better to take anatomy to 120 than tactics if you had to choose. The damage benifits are the same.

Total damage increase (max damage, ornate axe) from 100 points in a skill:
Tactics: 12
Anatomy: 9
Lumberjacking: 6

For lower damage output weapon (I tested a smith hammer with no DI), the difference is less (Tactics 8, anatomy 6)

 

[Turdnugget]

Once you hit GM tacs there's not much use going past... it only adds a few points of damage unfortunately =/

 

[Connor_Graham]

Once you hit GM tacs there's not much use going past... it only adds a few points of damage unfortunately =/

It's a 20% increase at 120 over GM, which is quite a bit.

 

[Old Man of UO]

It's a 20% increase at 120 over GM, which is quite a bit.

It's 12.5%, not 20% increase, but still significant. Damage increase from tactics is divided by 1.6, so 20 skill points gives you 12.5% increase... still worth doing if you have the skill points to spare.

 

[Connor_Graham]

It's 12.5%, not 20% increase, but still significant. Damage increase from tactics is divided by 1.6, so 20 skill points gives you 12.5% increase... still worth doing if you have the skill points to spare.

The formula I'm aware of is: Tactics + 50, so at GM you'd have 150% DI, and at 120 you'd have 170%. Where are you getting your formula?

 

[tarugobr]

Hmm.. I dunno... even if I drop LJ it would just be for more med and spirit. My defensive weakness vs archer ganks would remain. I'll just keep char as is just because I love 2 shot killing people.

I have well over 100 DI on this guy too btw. Like 84 before wep.

No LJ, no buffs. (20 tact/anat)

With LJ, no buffs.

With STR pot and Grapes of Wrath.

this template looks cool
do you use corpse skin, poison damge axe and crush?
ive seen a topic about something like this. i guess it was your topic, not sure

 

[Lynk]

I have a few different tactics, but ya the basic idea is to corpse skin them, use poison dmg weapons and knock the crap out of them.

When people "corpse proof" their suits they usually go excess fire, very few go excess poison. Every time I play that guy I 2 shot kill at least 1 person. Crushing, they stop to cast heal, crushing blow dead.

I have a few weps, but usually stick to war fork (bleed), ornate (crushing), double axe (double strike after a disarm), and battle axe (concussions greater than or equal to a crossbow).

It's a faction char that I rarely get to use because there are sooo many speedhacking archers that when 2 or 3 get on me without me having parry It's only a matter of time before I take a dirt nap with moving shots.

 

[Old Man of UO]

The formula I'm aware of is: Tactics + 50, so at GM you'd have 150% DI, and at 120 you'd have 170%. Where are you getting your formula?

Sorry... I didn't see this post to respond to it. Here are the correct formulas:

DAMAGE FORMULAS:
Tactics Damage Bonus% = Tactics ÷ 1.6 (Add 6.25% if Tactics >= 100)
Anatomy Damage Bonus% = (Anatomy ÷ 2) (Add 5% if Anatomy >= 100)
Lumberjack Damage Bonus% = Lumberjack ÷ 5 (Add 10% if Lumberjacking >= 100)
Strength Damage Bonus% = Strength * 0.3 (Add 5% if Strength >= 100)
Final Damage Bonus% = Tactics Bonus + Anatomy Bonus + Lumber Bonus + Strength Bonus + Damage Increase Items*
Final Damage = Base Damage + (Base Damage * Final Damage Bonus%)

* Damage Increase is capped at 100%.

I'm not sure when or where the Tactics +50% came from, but it isn't correct, and I don't think it ever was. These formulas are from Stratics and confirmed to be correct by the Developers in 2007 (if my memory is correct) - except for the 5% GM bonus formula as stated by Stratics is incorrect, but I fixed it here.
So at 120 Tactics, you get 120/1.6 + 6.25%= 81.25% bonus, not 170%.

Here is the Stratics Link:
http://uo.stratics.com/content/arms-armor/combat.php

 

[Connor_Graham]

Sorry... I didn't see this post to respond to it. Here are the correct formulas:

DAMAGE FORMULAS:
Tactics Damage Bonus% = Tactics ÷ 1.6 (Add 6.25% if Tactics >= 100)
Anatomy Damage Bonus% = (Anatomy ÷ 2) (Add 5% if Anatomy >= 100)
Lumberjack Damage Bonus% = Lumberjack ÷ 5 (Add 10% if Lumberjacking >= 100)
Strength Damage Bonus% = Strength * 0.3 (Add 5% if Strength >= 100)
Final Damage Bonus% = Tactics Bonus + Anatomy Bonus + Lumber Bonus + Strength Bonus + Damage Increase Items*
Final Damage = Base Damage + (Base Damage * Final Damage Bonus%)

* Damage Increase is capped at 100%.

I'm not sure when or where the Tactics +50% came from, but it isn't correct, and I don't think it ever was. These formulas are from Stratics and confirmed to be correct by the Developers in 2007 (if my memory is correct) - except for the 5% GM bonus formula as stated by Stratics is incorrect, but I fixed it here.
So at 120 Tactics, you get 120/1.6 + 6.25%= 81.25% bonus, not 170%.

Here is the Stratics Link:
http://uo.stratics.com/content/arms-armor/combat.php

I got it from this:

"FORMULA: % of Base Damage that is Dealt= Tactics + 50"

This is what is listed on Stratics as the formula for Tactics. If this isn't the case, that's a big difference between the 2. Almost a 50% difference.

 

[Old Man of UO]

I got it from this:

"FORMULA: % of Base Damage that is Dealt= Tactics + 50"

This is what is listed on Stratics as the formula for Tactics. If this isn't the case, that's a big difference between the 2. Almost a 50% difference.

Connor, do you have a link for that on Stratics? I'd have to search for the Developer's quote, but the other one is correct. And yeah, it is a BIG difference.

*EDIT*
Okay, here is the FOF link confirming the Combat page on Stratics has the correct formula. You need to follow the link in the FOF.
http://www.uo.com/fof/fiveonfriday63.html

 

[Connor_Graham]

I got mine right from the Tactics page on Stratics. I guess they need to update the Tactics page then. I'll send Petra an email with the details so she can correct the formula.

 

[Old Man of UO]

I wondered where you got that information from... very confusing when the same source quotes two different versions and they are so far off from each other.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Petra is getting this fixed for us.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I suppose that means you want it live today instead of waiting till I do an announcement on Friday?

 

[Connor_Graham]

I suppose that means you want it live today instead of waiting till I do an announcement on Friday?

You mean it wasn't done yesterday? What are you waiting for?