Satyr Training - Exploit or Not?

[Connor_Graham]

So there I am, happily following ol' Fuzzy Butt the Satyr around yesterday, going about my merry way training the last part of Cartography. I'm down to needing just 2 more gains to get to GM and some guy comes up and tells me to watch out, that Satyr training is considered an exploit. Well, this is news to me, as I'd never heard of this before, with even Stratics having a sticky for training Lockpicking in the Weald by using Satyrs.

So what's the deal? I've never seen nor heard anywhere that training skills using this method was an exploit. I see people in the Weald almost daily training up one skill or another, and they're never a bother except for the one guy that dropped a bazillion things on the ground instead of in bags, but that's another issue altogether. So which is it? Exploit or not? I'd really like to know.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I've not seen anything, one way or the other, and I do try to read everything that's posted from the EA team members.

Personally I feel uncomfortable about it, and yes, in my own, worthless opinion, I would consider it an exploit and will not use the method. On the other hand I consider training pets on shadow elementals in the same light and don't do that either. Nothing official, just my own views on the matter, so I don't expect to apply them to anyone but myself.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

While I am not an authority on the matter I would venture to say that it is safe, Exploits are usually considered when the creatures can not get to you, this not being the case I would not worry, but again the only way to know if something is wrong is for the developers to tell us.

 

[Tazar]

While is seems the easy way out...

I see it as no different than training with a negative-skill mage weapon in your hand. Or training in the accelerated skill gain areas of old-Haven. Or training in the old black-rock area.

The MOB can reach you and can counter attack so I fully believe that it is legal.

 

[Snakeman]

I would consider it a "round about way" to train, not an exploit. Reason being, ya can get your butt handed to you by getting them enraged enough to disco you. Seen many a face plant by people trying to get disco'd before they actually succeed. To me an exploit in that fashion, IMO, would be being able to be disco'd without any threat of OoOooO

 

[Black Sun]

I wouldn't consider it an exploit, It's not like it's a big secret among the players who use it, nor is it a new idea to train that way. I'm sure if it were an exploit the dev's would have done something about it by now.

 

[Stupid Miner]

So there I am, happily following ol' Fuzzy Butt the Satyr around yesterday, going about my merry way training the last part of Cartography. I'm down to needing just 2 more gains to get to GM and some guy comes up and tells me to watch out, that Satyr training is considered an exploit. Well, this is news to me, as I'd never heard of this before, with even Stratics having a sticky for training Lockpicking in the Weald by using Satyrs.

So what's the deal? I've never seen nor heard anywhere that training skills using this method was an exploit. I see people in the Weald almost daily training up one skill or another, and they're never a bother except for the one guy that dropped a bazillion things on the ground instead of in bags, but that's another issue altogether. So which is it? Exploit or not? I'd really like to know.

Well since we can't train in statloss, but we can still train with satyrs. I would consider that tacit approval from the devs.

 

[Harlequin]

Nope, I don't think it's an exploit. I think it has been asked before, but no comments from the devs.

Similar to using mage weapons (for magery), protection (for magic resist) etc which are not exploits either.

Unintended side effects of getting a penalty maybe, but not exploits.

 

[Lord Drakelord]

Never used the Satyr training myself, but have recommended it to folks training at the Lock Picking house on Sonoma. I can remember that pain in the rear run thru all the dungeons for days to GM the skill. Had the Satyr trick been back then I would have been in line with the rest to do it.

 

[Connor_Graham]

It looks, for the most part, that the general consensus is that training in this manner isn't considered to be an exploit. That's good to know, but it sure would be nice if someone "official" could pop in and let us know for certain.

*hint*

*hint*

 

[Arcus]

I'm sure if it were an exploit the dev's would have done something about it by now.

You are kidding right?

 

[Beastmaster]

Why its not an exploit:

If you are fighting a satyr and he discords you and you continue fighting him (mage, warrior, whatever) and your skills were below your cap you would experience the skill gain effect.

Also you can use discord when training your own pets to lower their skills for faster gains.

Its a training strategy, not an exploit. Remember seesawing for stat gains? That was never illegal either, just a strategy the game offered us.

 

[Black Sun]

I'm sure if it were an exploit the dev's would have done something about it by now.

You are kidding right?

I'd be willing to bet that this trick has worked since day one of ML going live. And for something as serious as this would be, yes, I'm sure they'd have done something by now about it.

I know EA's record for bug killing is somewhat less than stellar, but this would be considered a major exploit that wouldn't have escaped their notice for nearly 4 years now.

 

[Stupid Miner]

You are kidding right?

Well they did "fix" that "exploit" of partially chopping stone tables to make customized new ones several years back. (though i hear it's doable again)

This Dev team seems smart in that they don't fix the bugs that turn out as unexpected advantages as opposed to the older dev teams.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Also you can use discord when training your own pets to lower their skills for faster gains.

Although, for some reason they've changed Cu Sidhe's so their Healing doesn't get affected by Disco any more. I'd kind of like to know why that change was made. Seems pretty damn stupid.

 

[Sarsmi]

Also you can use discord when training your own pets to lower their skills for faster gains.

Although, for some reason they've changed Cu Sidhe's so their Healing doesn't get affected by Disco any more. I'd kind of like to know why that change was made. Seems pretty damn stupid.

I think it doesn't show that it's been lowered, but the cu will still get gains from healing normally (not just curing poison).

 

[Connor_Graham]

That's good to know. I've got 3 Cu's to train Resist up on so hopefully Healing will raise too.

 

[Old Man of UO]

I think it doesn't show that it's been lowered, but the cu will still get gains from healing normally (not just curing poison).

I can confirm that Sarsmi is correct... the discorded heal skill on cu sidhe does not show it being lowered with either client, but I have recently trained 3 dogs up to 95+ for sale. But for me this is a good thing since I don't have to bother converting the skill to know where its true skill is.

 

[NuSair]

I don't consider it an exploit, but I do think it's bad programming.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Also you can use discord when training your own pets to lower their skills for faster gains.

Although, for some reason they've changed Cu Sidhe's so their Healing doesn't get affected by Disco any more. I'd kind of like to know why that change was made. Seems pretty damn stupid.

I think it doesn't show that it's been lowered, but the cu will still get gains from healing normally (not just curing poison).

The last I checked on my Cu's at the Shadow Ore Elemental they were gaining past 90.0 when disco'd.

 

[Beastmaster]

Although, for some reason they've changed Cu Sidhe's so their Healing doesn't get affected by Disco any more. I'd kind of like to know why that change was made. Seems pretty damn stupid.

On Rune Beetles the poisoning skill doesn't display lower either, but I think it does gain as if it is lowered. So apparently the 5th skill slot just doesn't show lowered.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

I've not seen anything, one way or the other, and I do try to read everything that's posted from the EA team members.

Personally I feel uncomfortable about it, and yes, in my own, worthless opinion, I would consider it an exploit and will not use the method. On the other hand I consider training pets on shadow elementals in the same light and don't do that either. Nothing official, just my own views on the matter, so I don't expect to apply them to anyone but myself.

Just my 2cp's .......

As long as things are as difficult to train as they are now, I do not see any issues with using things like this to achieve goals.

I do understand and in spirit agree with you, I do not agree in reality.

I would really like to see the team, just .... go back through this training (pc and pet) with a different view point. One that is more akin to letting people play the game vs the one that dictated that anyone doing this must suffer some kind of real life permanent reduction in abilities.

I fully understand and accept that there is a ... group of people that are extremely hardcore obsessive / compulsive masochistic's that have some how managed to change the game to give them their fix. The other group of us ... well we just cope as best we can. The Satyr is just a means to ease the suffering.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Unless someone official says otherwise then, I guess I'll keep my original plans of training up the last part of Ninjitsu in the Weald. I really wasn't looking forward to having to train the last 20 points the hard way. It takes forever from what I hear.

 

[MalagAste]

Personally I don't see it as being any different than about a dozen other cheaper skill gaining methods..... such has carrying a negative mage skill item and training magery, hitting a golem to train up fighting skills or any number of other things folk to do train that doesn't involve actual hunting....

I've used it to a certain degree and it's a dangerous practice sometimes... and you even have the occasional griefer who will come and kill the satyr just to be a jerkwad...

So train away and enjoy it.

 

[J.B.]

Like a close friend of mine says its not an exploit, its using the game mechanics in your favor. Satyr Training is just a mechanic of the game.

 

[Connor_Graham]

I've used it to a certain degree and it's a dangerous practice sometimes... and you even have the occasional griefer who will come and kill the satyr just to be a jerkwad...

It doesn't even take a griefer, but just a tamer working the Cu population hoping for a lucky score. I lost 2 packy's while training, but the tamer was a very nice fellow that went and bought a replacement for me after the 2 I'd bought had died and I ended up with a large stack of blank scrolls sitting in the desert area that I had no way to carry. It sucks to have dire wolves and changeling spawn right on top of you when you're disco'd and have 2 packy's that are freshly bought and not bonded yet.

 

[Wenchkin]

Just my 2cp's .......

As long as things are as difficult to train as they are now, I do not see any issues with using things like this to achieve goals.

I do understand and in spirit agree with you, I do not agree in reality.

I would really like to see the team, just .... go back through this training (pc and pet) with a different view point. One that is more akin to letting people play the game vs the one that dictated that anyone doing this must suffer some kind of real life permanent reduction in abilities.

However, as long as satyrs, golems and shadow ele type methods exist, players will use them rather than push EA into making the skill gain system enjoyable for the rest of us. So we won't get a solution if EA keep landing more easy safe ways for folks to power train up. The dev time is perhaps saved, but the cheating these methods attract must rack up a lot of GM time in weeding out the cheats.

At least make it so that players who actually take on some risk during their training, are rewarded with faster gains. That would be at least something...

I fully understand and accept that there is a ... group of people that are extremely hardcore obsessive / compulsive masochistic's that have some how managed to change the game to give them their fix. The other group of us ... well we just cope as best we can. The Satyr is just a means to ease the suffering.

Hardcore obsessive/compulsive masochists? LOL. Maybe some folks just want to play the game, as opposed to sitting looking at a golem, satyr or shadow ele for hours, hitting the same macro, while at no real risk. It makes me laugh thinking that EA spent all the time making dungeons and fancy monsters and then their players spend most of their time with just 3 of them...

Wenchy

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Just my 2cp's .......

As long as things are as difficult to train as they are now, I do not see any issues with using things like this to achieve goals.

I do understand and in spirit agree with you, I do not agree in reality.

I would really like to see the team, just .... go back through this training (pc and pet) with a different view point. One that is more akin to letting people play the game vs the one that dictated that anyone doing this must suffer some kind of real life permanent reduction in abilities.

However, as long as satyrs, golems and shadow ele type methods exist, players will use them rather than push EA into making the skill gain system enjoyable for the rest of us. So we won't get a solution if EA keep landing more easy safe ways for folks to power train up. The dev time is perhaps saved, but the cheating these methods attract must rack up a lot of GM time in weeding out the cheats.

At least make it so that players who actually take on some risk during their training, are rewarded with faster gains. That would be at least something...

I fully understand and accept that there is a ... group of people that are extremely hardcore obsessive / compulsive masochistic's that have some how managed to change the game to give them their fix. The other group of us ... well we just cope as best we can. The Satyr is just a means to ease the suffering.

Hardcore obsessive/compulsive masochists? LOL. Maybe some folks just want to play the game, as opposed to sitting looking at a golem, satyr or shadow ele for hours, hitting the same macro, while at no real risk. It makes me laugh thinking that EA spent all the time making dungeons and fancy monsters and then their players spend most of their time with just 3 of them...

Wenchy

I accept the Catch 22 proposition your making and no I do not see the way out (catch 22 = we use the easy things making it such that the team is not compelled to redo how things are).

I accept that "Just play the game" is ambiguous / subjective. I do suspect, based on posts here on stratics, that more than a few think the current perception of Gains for both Pets and Self are .... to difficult.

The Hard Core Obsessive / Compulsive Masochist was levity. In the end, every single life form (human or other wise) is Obsessive / Compulsive, it is just a matter of how it is manifested. Being Masochistic is basically an Oxymoron statement as it applies to the Observer and the subject. This makes it a subject / judgment thing and .......

 

[UOKaiser]

However, as long as satyrs, golems and shadow ele type methods exist, players will use them rather than push EA into making the skill gain system enjoyable for the rest of us. So we won't get a solution if EA keep landing more easy safe ways for folks to power train up. The dev time is perhaps saved, but the cheating these methods attract must rack up a lot of GM time in weeding out the cheats.

At least make it so that players who actually take on some risk during their training, are rewarded with faster gains. That would be at least something...


Hardcore obsessive/compulsive masochists? LOL. Maybe some folks just want to play the game, as opposed to sitting looking at a golem, satyr or shadow ele for hours, hitting the same macro, while at no real risk. It makes me laugh thinking that EA spent all the time making dungeons and fancy monsters and then their players spend most of their time with just 3 of them...

Wenchy

That's why theres advance character creation,SOT,Haven accelerate skill gains,soulstones, used to be 8x8 boat so to help they removed the anti- code they saw how tedious it was. The rest are methods to get the character done faster.

You have no choice but to sit there wack at whatever. it's either that and get your skill to playable levels in a couple of days or spend 6 months to a year attaining the same levels doing nothing but killing low level spawn which you already did what when they first came out 11 years ago. The players who bring there skills up this way are vets training there skill the 1000's time again. They are not gonna play the game when they already done that and being there. They just want to finish there character and return to the same thing they being hunting or fighting for the last year.
Theres no point no reward wasting time on hunting dungeons that you finished billion of times.

Ratio of vet to new players is 9 to 1. I challenge any vet to build a full skill 6x warrior or mage character from the character creation menu without out haven with out short cuts just by hunting like they used to do 11 years ago going through every dungeon. I promise you if they finish and it's a big if cause they rather play there vet characters than this but if they finish in a year or so they be pretty pissed of cause they will need to redo it again or use the merthods above because some publish made there work useless.

 

[Tina Small]

That's why theres advance character creation,SOT,Haven accelerate skill gains,soulstones, used to be 8x8 boat so to help they removed the anti- code they saw how tedious it was. The rest are methods to get the character done faster.

You have no choice but to sit there wack at whatever. it's either that and get your skill to playable levels in a couple of days or spend 6 months to a year attaining the same levels doing nothing but killing low level spawn which you already did what when they first came out 11 years ago. The players who bring there skills up this way are vets training there skill the 1000's time again. They are not gonna play the game when they already done that and being there. They just want to finish there character and return to the same thing they being hunting or fighting for the last year.
Theres no point no reward wasting time on hunting dungeons that you finished billion of times.

Ratio of vet to new players is 9 to 1. I challenge any vet to build a full skill 6x warrior or mage character from the character creation menu without out haven with out short cuts just by hunting like they used to do 11 years ago going through every dungeon. I promise you if they finish and it's a big if cause they rather play there vet characters than this but if they finish in a year or so they be pretty pissed of cause they will need to redo it again or use the merthods above because some publish made there work useless.

I'm curious about something. If EA added new dungeons and new spawn at various levels of difficulty to the game, do you think the majority of vet players would take advantage of the new additions for training new characters? Or do you think that finishing a character as quickly as possible would remain their overriding concern and would only motivate them to look at the new additions for ones that could be used in as mindless a fashion as golems, spectral spellbinders, ridgebacks, shadow iron elementals, and that scripting program that cannot be named? In other words, is there any point to the developers even attempting to create new training opportunities for vet players to use in a completely ATTENDED fashion, or will most of them dismiss anything that doesn't allow them to train while also doing something else outside the game?

 

[LadyNico]

Satyr-hugging is so thoroughly documented here on Stratics that it can only be a feature unless/until the Dev Team tell us otherwise.

Satyr-hugging is not entirely without risk.

If I had just 1 gold for every time I have been taming and some herbert runs as best he/she can in the sand with a horde of changlings (often Irk, too, lol) on his/her tail with the end goal of dragging them into the champ area where the pixies & dryads will polish them off, I'd be substantially more wealthy.

Provided there is no exploit of game mechanics, I figure it's entirely up to the individual how they wish to train their chosen skills. *shrug*

 

[Wenchkin]

I accept the Catch 22 proposition your making and no I do not see the way out (catch 22 = we use the easy things making it such that the team is not compelled to redo how things are).

I accept that "Just play the game" is ambiguous / subjective. I do suspect, based on posts here on stratics, that more than a few think the current perception of Gains for both Pets and Self are .... to difficult.

The Hard Core Obsessive / Compulsive Masochist was levity. In the end, every single life form (human or other wise) is Obsessive / Compulsive, it is just a matter of how it is manifested. Being Masochistic is basically an Oxymoron statement as it applies to the Observer and the subject. This makes it a subject / judgment thing and .......

We all enjoy different things, that's all. There's no need to get into discussions where you designate one group as obsessive/compulsive masochists merely because they like to explore a virtual world and experience it fully, while you want to train in a power gaming style with a static mob. Training in UO isn't "suffering" unless you've had such a blissful life that you don't know what the real kind is

Wenchy

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

That's why theres advance character creation,SOT,Haven accelerate skill gains,soulstones, used to be 8x8 boat so to help they removed the anti- code they saw how tedious it was. The rest are methods to get the character done faster.

You have no choice but to sit there wack at whatever. it's either that and get your skill to playable levels in a couple of days or spend 6 months to a year attaining the same levels doing nothing but killing low level spawn which you already did what when they first came out 11 years ago. The players who bring there skills up this way are vets training there skill the 1000's time again. They are not gonna play the game when they already done that and being there. They just want to finish there character and return to the same thing they being hunting or fighting for the last year.
Theres no point no reward wasting time on hunting dungeons that you finished billion of times.

Ratio of vet to new players is 9 to 1. I challenge any vet to build a full skill 6x warrior or mage character from the character creation menu without out haven with out short cuts just by hunting like they used to do 11 years ago going through every dungeon. I promise you if they finish and it's a big if cause they rather play there vet characters than this but if they finish in a year or so they be pretty pissed of cause they will need to redo it again or use the merthods above because some publish made there work useless.

Been playing since beta. Still train using all the dungeons. can do it in days. not 6x since I don't start out with 120 skill points, unlike other "vets" I play each char as its own, so I start with 100 in each skill and play the game on that char not sharing gold or resources from the others. Challenge met, completed, and dominated. (admittingly I did use the satyr trick in a way once while training spellweaving. I think my wife was taming Cu's and I was bored, tho not an excuse only being honest about the situation). Honestly what can you do on a vet char that you can not do on a noobish one? If I am on a vet char I try to do something that is risky enough to where I can die, preferably a lot, On a noobish char, same thing only difference is I can accomplish this with out having to go with High end monsters or pvping, simple walk through of shame and I'm sure to find something able to kill me fast enough for a thrill. Hell I even take my noobish chars to yew. granted I die way more than i want to when on a noobish char, but looting that bola off a red and using it against them while getting them killed, is an accomplishment on a naked char with 300 or less skill points while training something like spirit speak or some other non fighting skill.

 

[UOKaiser]

I'm curious about something. If EA added new dungeons and new spawn at various levels of difficulty to the game, do you think the majority of vet players would take advantage of the new additions for training new characters? Or do you think that finishing a character as quickly as possible would remain their overriding concern and would only motivate them to look at the new additions for ones that could be used in as mindless a fashion as golems, spectral spellbinders, ridgebacks, shadow iron elementals, and that scripting program that cannot be named? In other words, is there any point to the developers even attempting to create new training opportunities for vet players to use in a completely ATTENDED fashion, or will most of them dismiss anything that doesn't allow them to train while also doing something else outside the game?

New players how few they are would take advantage of that. But the vets will look for the easiest and fastest way to train available. If the new dungeons is not faster and easier than a focus on training 1-2-3 skills at a time without interuption then that will not be the method of which is trained.
The fastest of methods is advance character token then using haven for any skills needed to 50 then a fast proven method either be satire,golem ,sheep method, sparring, anything that able to reach the goel with miniman work then using sot for the final points. If anything EA adds that is not faster than that then it will be worthless.

If for some reason methods like this don't exist then less characters will be made and it's either use what you got or quit. Why transfer tokens where made? Players do not like to start from scratch and if they have to they want to get done with it as fast as possible either be skills,homes,gold or anything else. Once you have something you want to move forward and never backwards no matter what.

No matter how much players say they want a challenge they do not want a hassle. People play games to have fun and relax or for dorphin that rushes through the body. No one wants to play a game if it's gonna just be more boring work. And if they have to do that boring work they are gonna find the fastest easiest way posiible to get it over with so they can have fun.

As they say in many packages "Players experience may differ"

 

[UOKaiser]

Been playing since beta. Still train using all the dungeons. can do it in days. not 6x since I don't start out with 120 skill points, unlike other "vets" I play each char as its own, so I start with 100 in each skill and play the game on that char not sharing gold or resources from the others. Challenge met, completed, and dominated. (admittingly I did use the satyr trick in a way once while training spellweaving. I think my wife was taming Cu's and I was bored, tho not an excuse only being honest about the situation). Honestly what can you do on a vet char that you can not do on a noobish one? If I am on a vet char I try to do something that is risky enough to where I can die, preferably a lot, On a noobish char, same thing only difference is I can accomplish this with out having to go with High end monsters or pvping, simple walk through of shame and I'm sure to find something able to kill me fast enough for a thrill. Hell I even take my noobish chars to yew. granted I die way more than i want to when on a noobish char, but looting that bola off a red and using it against them while getting them killed, is an accomplishment on a naked char with 300 or less skill points while training something like spirit speak or some other non fighting skill.

I commend you. Some people will accomplish it. Not something me and many others would ever enjoy though. After 11 years seen it all done it all. I just cant go back to killing anything other than a high end mob repetedly knowing theres no reward or nothing new from it just to gain skill so I can go fight high end mobs which i was already doing. Virtue rewards where nice but became old fast. Not to mention I have so much to do in UO with my crafter and other characters that I just wil never finish a new character with that method. Took me so many years just to finish my first account. Felt good but it was not worth it when I had to use souls stones anyway to make new characters and before souls tones just retire the old ones.
Though if a publish messed up one of those characters you trained will you delete it and train it again the same way? Or will you use the short cut of soulstones and keep the skills you can still use?

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Set one down, set others up. I am not completely against deleting chars...I have done so, But I generally would just set the skill down and train w.e skill up. any skill i have ever put on a soul stone i have ended up hitting the remove skill button for it, Honestly I have used soul stones to move skills around, but usually because of change of mind or some other thing that needed to change two chars I already had. I am not completely against soul stones or anything. But I would never hit a golem to train....So yes I could likely use a soul stone, but I was only really responded to the "golem" or other completely mindless and unattended ways of playing (spell binders anyone?)

 

[UOKaiser]

Set one down, set others up. I am not completely against deleting chars...I have done so, But I generally would just set the skill down and train w.e skill up. any skill i have ever put on a soul stone i have ended up hitting the remove skill button for it, Honestly I have used soul stones to move skills around, but usually because of change of mind or some other thing that needed to change two chars I already had. I am not completely against soul stones or anything. But I would never hit a golem to train....So yes I could likely use a soul stone, but I was only really responded to the "golem" or other completely mindless and unattended ways of playing (spell binders anyone?)

As I always believe to each there own. If they prefer to build there skills the old fashion way and that brings them joy then go for it. If they prefer to attack golem and that brings them enjoyment go for it. We all pay to play a game we live in day by day. We all have equal rights in how we want to play the game and what we do with our time in the game.
I enjoy mining a very repeatous lonely task. Many see it as a chore and will hate to spend hours on it. I see it as a relaxing time to spend while listening to music after a long day at work. To each there own. The game is about fun whichever way a person wants to have fun especialy if it doesnt involve anybody else.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

As I always believe to each there own. If they prefer to build there skills the old fashion way and that brings them joy then go for it. If they prefer to attack golem and that brings them enjoyment go for it. We all pay to play a game we live in day by day. We all have equal rights in how we want to play the game and what we do with our time in the game.
I enjoy mining a very repeatous lonely task. Many see it as a chore and will hate to spend hours on it. I see it as a relaxing time to spend while listening to music after a long day at work. To each there own. The game is about fun whichever way a person wants to have fun especialy if it doesnt involve anybody else.

I agree with you on this post. My replies were only based on your other posts. I enjoy mining too, (not so much lumberjacking tho....I dunno just not the same I guess) but some things have no reward and are just numbing to me, obviously others do not feel the same way, but I am in no way trying to push my play style on anyone (at the moment anyway )