Illegal house desgn?

[D'Amavir]

I don't wish it was legal, I think that is one solution to the problem of inequality but TBH what I would really like is for the devs to be able to stop scripting entirely. I'd also really like it if everyone played legitimately and didn't cheat. Both of those wishes are pipe dreams, but hey, that's what I really want in regards to UO.

And yeah this thread got horribly off track. But d'amavir stopped replying to me so it'll probably peter out when he stops replying to other people who are making holes in his argument as well.

*shrugs*

More lies I see. What post was your last? Mine responding to you was #180. Did I miss one from you after that?

And, if I did, I doubt you were able to finally put in holes in my argument. You have already said the same lies over and over so I assume it was just more the same. So, what number post was it? I will go back and check it.

 

[Sarsmi]

I don't wish it was legal, I think that is one solution to the problem of inequality but TBH what I would really like is for the devs to be able to stop scripting entirely. I'd also really like it if everyone played legitimately and didn't cheat. Both of those wishes are pipe dreams, but hey, that's what I really want in regards to UO.

And yeah this thread got horribly off track. But d'amavir stopped replying to me so it'll probably peter out when he stops replying to other people who are making holes in his argument as well.

*shrugs*

More lies I see. What post was your last? Mine responding to you was #180. Did I miss one from you after that?

And, if I did, I doubt you were able to finally put in holes in my argument. You have already said the same lies over and over so I assume it was just more the same. So, what number post was it? I will go back and check it.

Oh, it was such a poor response that I missed it. You are seriously avoiding all my fabulous points now. Got no responses?

BTW PLEASE quote where I have lied. It hasn't happened. Unless you count that I missed your last really poor response to me? I guess someone's getting upset that they are being shown to be wro-ong! *sing song voice*

The truth can hurt eh?

Anyways, what it really boils down to is that cheating in any form DOES impact other players in the game. It isn't victimless. When you skill gain script you are gaining skills faster which gives you free time that legitimate players do not have. You have by the very act changed the nature of the game. If they opened a brand new shard skill gain scripters would be the first ones to GM+ their skills, be out farming gold, placing houses in the best spots etc. They would, because their poor moral compass would allow them to cheat, would cheat other players out of good house spots other competitive avenues where time is of the essence.

I can't believe I've spent so much time arguing something that is patently obvious to anyone who is above cheating. But then again cheaters always will try to find ways to justify what they do. How many times did you say that you GMd or 120'd skills already and you now find it boring? That you want to have fun playing instead of training skills? That is your justification. I'm not the only one who does a lot of boring stuff in this game in order to get to the places I want to be. It's part of the game, and trying to short cut it is cheating and affects everyone who will not take those short cuts.

I've already shown many ways that a skill scripter can benefit where a legit player lags behind. You chant the mantra of soulstones and adv char tokens like that saves your argument. I riposte that a skill scripter who uses a adv char token and powergames is a a cheater who will advance more quickly than a non cheater, and therefore they are able to reap the rewards (whatever those be) of getting to get that skill up first. I showed many examples (and even added a new one about a new shard opening) to show how getting those skills up first would be beneficial.

And you had no comeback for this.

Quite simply I have proven your argument false, and have left you with trying to counter with the same old arguments that don't work, or you avoid the points I bring up entirely.

BTW if you think I'm a liar and you think that is a bad thing, might be wise to refrain from lying yourself:

Disagreement is one thing. I disagree with a lot of things. But I am mature enough to express that disagreement without resorting to petty insults like you guys.

Haha...call me immature again. Tell me its "sad to be you, I bet". Tell me again that it's beyond me to be logical. Call me greedy. Tell me I'm about game validation. Tell me I'm too scary to visit your house.

All things you have said before, and I'm sure there's a lot more. I got tired of re-reading your logically flawed arguments to find more examples.

 

[D'Amavir]

Oh, it was such a poor response that I missed it. You are seriously avoiding all my fabulous points now. Got no responses?

If you ever make a point, I will respond to it. Gladly. But first, make a point. Or keep contradicting yourself. Either one works.

BTW PLEASE quote where I have lied. It hasn't happened. Unless you count that I missed your last really poor response to me? I guess someone's getting upset that they are being shown to be wro-ong! *sing song voice*

Aww, don't get upset. You should be used to being wrong.

The truth can hurt eh?

I guess. When you start telling it I will not for sure though.

Anyways, what it really boils down to is that cheating in any form DOES impact other players in the game. It isn't victimless.

You contradict yourself again. Make up your mind. Does it have a major negative impact or is it something you would do? Which is it?

When you skill gain script you are gaining skills faster which gives you free time that legitimate players do not have.

I agree. People that buy accounts get skills much faster than people that don't. Not sure what your point is there though. I have said that from the beginning. If your new method of 'winning' is just repeating what I say, cool.

You have by the very act changed the nature of the game. If they opened a brand new shard skill gain scripters would be the first ones to GM+ their skills,

And power gamers, and advanced token buyers. Don't forget those bad guys.

be out farming gold, placing houses in the best spots etc.

Yes, because anytime a new skill gets added, everyone has to GM that skill before they can place a house. Got it.

They would, because their poor moral compass would allow them to cheat, would cheat other players out of good house spots other competitive avenues where time is of the essence.

Exactly. I had to wait for years until I GM'd resist before I could place a house. So unfair!

I can't believe I've spent so much time arguing something that is patently obvious to anyone who is above cheating.

Again, you are missing the point. Again, point, missed.

But then again cheaters always will try to find ways to justify what they do.

Again with the justifying stuff? You already admitted that if the label was changed (NOT THE ACT) you would be the first to do it.

How many times did you say that you GMd or 120'd skills already and you now find it boring? That you want to have fun playing instead of training skills? That is your justification.

I state a fact that others share. It is not fun to keep working the same skills over and over. It is fun to you to do so, and I am glad. I want you to have fun in the game. Unlike you, I DO care about the enjoyment of others and not just myself.

I'm not the only one who does a lot of boring stuff in this game in order to get to the places I want to be. It's part of the game, and trying to short cut it is cheating and affects everyone who will not take those short cuts.

So can I expect to see you spend days on a thread that you created complaining about powergamers and advanced token users? Since you clearly have something against people that do those things. So, post away about it.

I've already shown many ways that a skill scripter can benefit where a legit player lags behind. You chant the mantra of soulstones and adv char tokens like that saves your argument.

Because it does. It is someone that uses something available to them to shorten the time it takes the to gain skill. Allowing them to get into the 'real' game faster.

I riposte that a skill scripter who uses a adv char token and powergames is a a cheater who will advance more quickly than a non cheater, and therefore they are able to reap the rewards (whatever those be) of getting to get that skill up first.

Again, you keep missing the point. You are mad at a LABEL. Not an ACT. You admitted that.

I showed many examples (and even added a new one about a new shard opening) to show how getting those skills up first would be beneficial.

You showed that having skills trained is beneficial? Heavens, I didn't know that. And here I was spending 11+ years with the same skill levels I started with. Shocking. Thanks for the insight.

And you had no comeback for this.

Comeback for how having skills trained is beneficial? Nope. No need for one. I agree. It is beneficial.

Quite simply I have proven your argument false, and have left you with trying to counter with the same old arguments that don't work, or you avoid the points I bring up entirely.

Again with the lies. I get it. You are hoping people won't actually read this thread and instead just pop on and see you tell one of those lies and take them as truth. That's fine with me. Your lies and their believing of your lies doesn't affect me.

BTW if you think I'm a liar and you think that is a bad thing, might be wise to refrain from lying yourself:

I don't think you are a liar. I know you are. See, when someone tells a lie, it makes them a liar. No matter how many times they claim 'I didn't lie' the fact is that their lies are in print for all to see.

Haha...call me immature again. Tell me its "sad to be you, I bet". Tell me again that it's beyond me to be logical. Call me greedy. Tell me I'm about game validation. Tell me I'm too scary to visit your house.

You are immature. I imagine it is sad to be you. It is beyond you to be logical about this subject. Others? I am not sure. But on this subject you have skipped all logic. Scary in the 'stalker' sense, not the boogie man sense.

All things you have said before, and I'm sure there's a lot more. I got tired of re-reading your logically flawed arguments to find more examples.

More examples? Try one.

To rehash your attempts.

1. You think 'all cheating hurts the game'. Ok, I can understand that viewpoint.

2. You think that people that use things like powergaming, soulstones, advanced characters, buying accounts and scripting skills are hurting the game. Again, that is your right to have that opinion.

3. If the 'label' of scripting skills was changed, you would be the first to do it. See, here is where you messed up. If it is 'so damaging to the game', why would you suddenly do it? Do you want to damage the game? Is that your goal? If you said something like "Even if it was legal, I wouldn't ever script because I think it, along with powergaming, soulstones, advanced characters and buying accounts, is bad for the game and I won't support it. Now, if you had said that, I would have accepted that as your opinion. I might not have agreed but I would have defending your right to that opinion.

So, the bottom line, as I have been saying for two days now, is that you don't have an issue with the act itself. Only with the label placed on that act. And you have taken a 'moral' stance against it, as long as the label doesn't change. If it did change, you would be all over it.

See, for me, I am opposed to killing puppies. Not because its ilegal, but because it is, to me, wrong to do. Now, should killing puppies because suddenly legal, I would still be opposed to it. I would even speak out against it while people like you would say things like "But its legal, so its ok. We don't question the label, we just follow and support it."

That, clearly, is the difference between you and I. If you really are 'opposed' to something, you should be opposed to it because of the fact that you think it is wrong. Not because of what 'label' is placed on it.

Clearly, doing things that harm others is wrong. Label or no label. Its wrong. So, if you really want to be opposed to people being able to take shortcuts when it comes to skill gain, be opposed to it. I support that view. I don't agree but I support you having it. Instead you come out with "Its so wrong, its evil, its bad for the game, it will ruin the economy" and then when its made legal its "I am all over doing that! I would be the first one doing it! Its all good for the game!"

 

[Sarsmi]

You contradict yourself again. Make up your mind. Does it have a major negative impact or is it something you would do? Which is it?

It's not a contradiction - It has a negative impact and it is *also* something I would never do. Cheat that is. I thought we covered this? I don't cheat, but you do? If they made scripting legal then it would not longer be cheating, ergo I might give it a whirl?

BTW by the very nature of the label "cheating" the act is changed. This is so fundamental to this debate that I think it is your flawed understanding of this from which all issues spring forth. Putting an ace up your sleeve when you play poker is considered cheating. You have said you would not do this. If they changed the rules so that anyone could in fact put a card up their sleeve if they wanted, would you? Of course you would! A game is defined by it's rules, those rules are not in and of themselves moral guidelines but more like boundaries which we resided within.

We all agree to those rule when we sit down to play, and when someone goes outside those rules they are cheating. It doesn't matter what the rule is, what composes it, by it's nature it is a guideline that is immutable by the players, only the rule makers can decide if it should be altered or changed or disregarded.

When players start questioning the rules of the game via the method of breaking them, they are no longer playing the game within it's given boundaries. Regardless of their reasons (it's no fuuuun, waaah) they are breaking the rules that are specifically set up so that all play is fair. By attempting to justify what you do as 'victimless' you are essentially saying it is ok for anyone to break the rules as long as they can justify those rules and use any type of argument to show that there is no harm done.

I could cheat at poker, but we're only playing for chips so it doesn't matter!

I could cheat at poker, but we're only playing for quarters, and jeez it's not like anyone is gonna go broke!

I could cheat at poker, but we all make good money so it's ok if I win $100!

I could script in UO because scripts are available on the internet for anyone to download! So we can all script! Yayayay!

Talk about your slippery slopes! Once you decide that you can draw your own personal line for what you consider "ok" to do, you have now stepped outside the boundaries of fair play and in doing so invite anyone who cheats to be your equal. The guy who script mines, the guy who dupes, the guy who scams other players - they all draw their own lines, and they have just as much a right to as you do. Is that really ok in your world? Who says you are the one who declares what is right or wrong?

The players in a game should all be equal. None of us above the other. None of us able to make the rules, only the rule makers outside of the game can do that.

And power gamers, and advanced token buyers. Don't forget those bad guys.

...and powergamers who use an adv token and script skill gain will do it the fastest. Stop rehashing, you keep making me show how I win this argument.

Yes, because anytime a new skill gets added, everyone has to GM that skill before they can place a house. Got it.

strawman, don't play (err if you are playing) dense.

Exactly. I had to wait for years until I GM'd resist before I could place a house. So unfair!

Strawman. Clearly someone who gets their taming up very quickly and can farm gold and item from higher end monsters will win the "i can place a house race" fastest. Stop making me point out the obvious.

Again with the justifying stuff? You already admitted that if the label was changed (NOT THE ACT) you would be the first to do it.

The act is changed by having a label. I covered this already, feel free to re-read and absorb my wisdom *points up*

I state a fact that others share. It is not fun to keep working the same skills over and over. It is fun to you to do so, and I am glad. I want you to have fun in the game. Unlike you, I DO care about the enjoyment of others and not just myself.

You honestly think what I do when I gather bones or work skills is fun for me? I do TONS of boring **** in UO just so I can do some fun stuff and provide fun for other people. I can't imagine the last time you spent any of your precious time on other players. Oh, but I forgot your campaign via cheating to free the slaves of legitimate play! Viva la revolucion! Power to the people! FREEDOM! FREEDOM!

So can I expect to see you spend days on a thread that you created complaining about powergamers and advanced token users? Since you clearly have something against people that do those things. So, post away about it.

You won't find me complaining about legal aspects of the game that don't get my dander up. Besides which you can't put adv char tokens back in the magic lamp. The time for complaining about that has come and gone.

Comeback for how having skills trained is beneficial? Nope. No need for one. I agree. It is beneficial.

Right-o. And therefore having them trained before legit players is an advantage that hurts others. For the many, many, many reasons I've already shown.

I don't think you are a liar. I know you are. See, when someone tells a lie, it makes them a liar. No matter how many times they claim 'I didn't lie' the fact is that their lies are in print for all to see.

Point out a lie I have made. Right now we are debating our opinions and no matter how much you want to believe you are speaking in facts, you 'aint. So if you consider that me saying I'm right is a lie...then you are quite obviously new to the arena of debating and should probably take a logic 101 class.

You are immature. I imagine it is sad to be you. It is beyond you to be logical about this subject. Others? I am not sure. But on this subject you have skipped all logic. Scary in the 'stalker' sense, not the boogie man sense.

Whats funny about this is you are reverting to personal attacks, but I imagine when the mods lock the thread because you couldn't control your temper you'll probably blame me, or someone else who didn't want the "truth" or whatever to get you. You already said many pages ago that your inside guy said the thread would get locked soon. You are...very amusing, but really wrong.

2. You think that people that use things like powergaming, soulstones, advanced characters, buying accounts and scripting skills are hurting the game. Again, that is your right to have that opinion.

I never said that. And it's more complicated than "hurtz" or "don't"

3. If the 'label' of scripting skills was changed, you would be the first to do it. See, here is where you messed up. If it is 'so damaging to the game', why would you suddenly do it? Blah blah...

It's so damaging precisely because it is cheating. See my awesome opus I posted above for reference. See it, and don't be ashamed to cry real tears at how beautifully I argue my points. It's ok to cry when you see something truly beautiful.

See, for me, I am opposed to killing puppies. Not because its ilegal, but because it is, to me, wrong to do. Now, should killing puppies because suddenly legal, I would still be opposed to it. I would even speak out against it while people like you would say things like "But its legal, so its ok. We don't question the label, we just follow and support it."

Real life is not a game and is not bound by ultimate rules that we all must follow equally. I can't believe you are *still* confusing real life with a game...do you argue about the rules in monopoly when you play it? Or do you just cheat to show your disgust with the man?

 

[D'Amavir]

It's not a contradiction - It has a negative impact and it is *also* something I would never do. Cheat that is. I thought we covered this? I don't cheat, but you do? If they made scripting legal then it would not longer be cheating, ergo I might give it a whirl?

Which is my point. You are against the label, not any made up 'damage' that you keep trying to make up into existing.

BTW by the very nature of the label "cheating" the act is changed. This is so fundamental to this debate that I think it is your flawed understanding of this from which all issues spring forth. Putting an ace up your sleeve when you play poker is considered cheating. You have said you would not do this. If they changed the rules so that anyone could in fact put a card up their sleeve if they wanted, would you? Of course you would! A game is defined by it's rules, those rules are not in and of themselves moral guidelines but more like boundaries which we resided within.

Flawed example, and I am not surprised.

We all agree to those rule when we sit down to play, and when someone goes outside those rules they are cheating. It doesn't matter what the rule is, what composes it, by it's nature it is a guideline that is immutable by the players, only the rule makers can decide if it should be altered or changed or disregarded.

Duh. I think people know what 'cheating' means. But, again, thanks for the needless insight.

When players start questioning the rules of the game via the method of breaking them, they are no longer playing the game within it's given boundaries. Regardless of their reasons (it's no fuuuun, waaah) they are breaking the rules that are specifically set up so that all play is fair. By attempting to justify what you do as 'victimless' you are essentially saying it is ok for anyone to break the rules as long as they can justify those rules and use any type of argument to show that there is no harm done.

I don't justify. I point out fact. Scripting skill gain has the exact same impact that all other skill gain methods have. It has no, that's NO, unique impacts.

I could cheat at poker, but we're only playing for chips so it doesn't matter!

No relevant.

I could cheat at poker, but we're only playing for quarters, and jeez it's not like anyone is gonna go broke!

And again.

I could cheat at poker, but we all make good money so it's ok if I win $100!

Senseless.

I could script in UO because scripts are available on the internet for anyone to download! So we can all script! Yayayay!

Exactly. IF everyone could do it, it would have ZERO impact.

Talk about your slippery slopes! Once you decide that you can draw your own personal line for what you consider "ok" to do, you have now stepped outside the boundaries of fair play and in doing so invite anyone who cheats to be your equal. The guy who script mines, the guy who dupes, the guy who scams other players - they all draw their own lines, and they have just as much a right to as you do. Is that really ok in your world? Who says you are the one who declares what is right or wrong?

Another poor example. But, ok. Sure, I am the one that declares what is right or wrong when it comes to my opinion. If I disagree with a rule, a law, an opinion or a view, I will question it. Because I can.

The players in a game should all be equal. None of us above the other. None of us able to make the rules, only the rule makers outside of the game can do that.

Right. So make script skill gain legal since, otherwise, people that can't afford to buy soulstones, advanced characters or accounts are at a disadvantage. As are those that can't play as many hours a day as powergamers. Thanks again for helping me make my points.

...and powergamers who use an adv token and script skill gain will do it the fastest. Stop rehashing, you keep making me show how I win this argument.

Wanna bet? I will make a wager with you right here and now that, should I win, you will accept my viewpoint and if I lose, I will accept yours. Deal?

Strawman. Clearly someone who gets their taming up very quickly and can farm gold and item from higher end monsters will win the "i can place a house race" fastest. Stop making me point out the obvious.

That makes zero sense. Maybe in the game you play, there are a bunch of people that don't have money to place a house and won't have it unless they script their skill. But, in the game I play, gold drops from the sky and its very easy to get enough to place a house.

The act is changed by having a label. I covered this already, feel free to re-read and absorb my wisdom *points up*

Saying it again doesn't make it true. But keep saying it. Its still the same act. Puppy killing is puppy killing, legal or not.

You honestly think what I do when I gather bones or work skills is fun for me? I do TONS of boring **** in UO just so I can do some fun stuff and provide fun for other people. I can't imagine the last time you spent any of your precious time on other players. Oh, but I forgot your campaign via cheating to free the slaves of legitimate play! Viva la revolucion! Power to the people! FREEDOM! FREEDOM!

I won't even attempt to address the things that are just too immature for my focused attention. Sorry.

You won't find me complaining about legal aspects of the game that don't get my dander up. Besides which you can't put adv char tokens back in the magic lamp. The time for complaining about that has come and gone.

Not true. Want an example? Stat loss. Years of whining about pk's got it added to the game. People complained. People like you claimed it was 'too late' to complain about it. Guess what? Stat loss was removed.

Right-o. And therefore having them trained before legit players is an advantage that hurts others. For the many, many, many reasons I've already shown.

EA supports people using different things to speed up skill training. They intentionally put things in the game to HELP that. But you aren't whining about those for days. All because of a label.

Point out a lie I have made. Right now we are debating our opinions and no matter how much you want to believe you are speaking in facts, you 'aint. So if you consider that me saying I'm right is a lie...then you are quite obviously new to the arena of debating and should probably take a logic 101 class.

Reread the things you said. Lies are there clearly.

Whats funny about this is you are reverting to personal attacks, but I imagine when the mods lock the thread because you couldn't control your temper you'll probably blame me, or someone else who didn't want the "truth" or whatever to get you. You already said many pages ago that your inside guy said the thread would get locked soon. You are...very amusing, but really wrong.

Personal attacks? Really? That's how you want to get this thread locked so you don't have to take me up on my wager and have to admit defeat? Ok, get it locked then. You admitted you were immature. I agreed. My name is David. If you call me David, its not a personal attack since I just admitted it was my name.

I never said that. And it's more complicated than "hurtz" or "don't"

You said that people using things to speed up their skill gain hurts those that can't do it. Are you backing off from that opinion now?

It's so damaging precisely because it is cheating. See my awesome opus I posted above for reference. See it, and don't be ashamed to cry real tears at how beautifully I argue my points. It's ok to cry when you see something truly beautiful.

Two words for you, and I know this will be wayyyyy over your head but still, Jean Valjean.

Real life is not a game and is not bound by ultimate rules that we all must follow equally. I can't believe you are *still* confusing real life with a game...do you argue about the rules in monopoly when you play it? Or do you just cheat to show your disgust with the man?

You don't see how many times your view has changed throughout this thread. Its hilarious to me. Make up your mind. Or, whatever it is that passes for such in your kind.

And, let me know about that wager. I can give you details as soon as you say you want to take part. I will win, guaranteed. So I hope you agree to wager.

 

[Tjalle]

Lol, I can´t understand why you guys are wasting your time with D in this thread.

It´s pretty obvious he has nothing substantial to come with as he just keeps twisting the words and grasping for straws.

But one must admire his ability to choose not to "get it" when examples are been given. But I guess he´s just here to argue for the sake of arguing...

With that said, I think it´s time for a...

 

[D'Amavir]

Lol, I can´t understand why you guys are wasting your time with D in this thread.

It´s pretty obvious he has nothing substantial to come with as he just keeps twisting the words and grasping for straws.

But one must admire his ability to choose not to "get it" when examples are been given. But I guess he´s just here to argue for the sake of arguing...

With that said, I think it´s time for a...

Couldn't agree more! Yes! He is completely wrong! Completely! Move along, all, nothing to see here. Nothing to see here.

 

[AesSedai]

]BTW by the very nature of the label "cheating" the act is changed. This is so fundamental to this debate that I think it is your flawed understanding of this from which all issues spring forth. Putting an ace up your sleeve when you play poker is considered cheating. You have said you would not do this. If they changed the rules so that anyone could in fact put a card up their sleeve if they wanted, would you? Of course you would! A game is defined by it's rules, those rules are not in and of themselves moral guidelines but more like boundaries which we resided within.

Flawed example, and I am not surprised.

- For any argument to attempt to have any credence, one should provide examples to prove their point. Sarsmi's example was perfectly sound, as it is a completely valid analogy between cheating in two different games: UO & poker.

We all agree to those rule when we sit down to play, and when someone goes outside those rules they are cheating. It doesn't matter what the rule is, what composes it, by it's nature it is a guideline that is immutable by the players, only the rule makers can decide if it should be altered or changed or disregarded.

Duh. I think people know what 'cheating' means. But, again, thanks for the needless insight.

- Apparently some people need a refresher course regarding the definition of cheating; and some need a reminder that in a game the gamemaster makes the rules and the players either follow them or they don't & if they don't then they are cheating, which is always considered bad, in a game.

When players start questioning the rules of the game via the method of breaking them, they are no longer playing the game within it's given boundaries. Regardless of their reasons (it's no fuuuun, waaah) they are breaking the rules that are specifically set up so that all play is fair. By attempting to justify what you do as 'victimless' you are essentially saying it is ok for anyone to break the rules as long as they can justify those rules and use any type of argument to show that there is no harm done.

I don't justify. I point out fact. [Illegally] Scripting skill gain has the exact same impact that all other skill gain methods have. It has no, that's NO, unique impacts.

+

I could script in UO because scripts are available on the internet for anyone to download! So we can all script! Yayayay!

Exactly. IF everyone could do it, it would have ZERO impact.

- Fact: D'amavir, you just contradicted yourself and you also admitted that you know illegally scripting skill gain has SOME impact above and beyond legal methods of skill gain, when you declared that: 'IF everyone could do it [then] it would have ZERO impact'.
I'm happy for you; I knew you had it in ya'.
Thanks for confirming what some of us have been trying to express to you all along.

Since many have answered your question in many different ways, I'm happy to see that you have now also answered your own question.
You did a good job of morphing your question into various forms over the history of this thread (decent argumentative tactic, eh), but I'm happy to see that you have confirmed that you also agree that 'illegal scripting for skill gain' does indeed have SOME impact on everyone involved in UO; and since it is illegal (~since it is against the rules of the game) it is a matter of simple logic to deduce that that impact is negative. Case closed (the thread still isn't, although you've hinted that you might like for it to be, a few times).
Good job everybody
Reward:

 

[D'Amavir]

- For any argument to attempt to have any credence, one should provide examples to prove their point. Sarsmi's example was perfectly sound, as it is a completely valid analogy between cheating in two different games: UO & poker.

Wrong. Poker doesn't have 'rules' in place that allow someone to buy an Ace up their sleeve. You get what you are dealt. Period. No amount of bonus money can get you an extra ace up your sleeve.

Apparently some people need a refresher course regarding the definition of cheating; and some need a reminder that in a game the gamemaster makes the rules and the players either follow them or they don't & if they don't then they are cheating, which is always considered bad, in a game.

I think everyone knows what cheating is.
+

- Fact: D'amavir, you just contradicted yourself and you also admitted that you know illegally scripting skill gain has SOME impact above and beyond legal methods of skill gain, when you declared that: 'IF everyone could do it [then] it would have ZERO impact'.

Correct. It would have ZERO impact, just like now. It has no impact now, if it was legal it would still have impact. None. No impact. None. Zero. How is that a contradiction when I have been saying that for days?

I'm happy for you; I knew you had it in ya'.
Thanks for confirming what some of us have been trying to express to you all along.

For confirming that it has zero impact? Anytime.

Since many have answered your question in many different ways, I'm happy to see that you have now also answered your own question.

I had the answer from the start. Just took you days to catch up.

You did a good job of morphing your question into various forms over the history of this thread (decent argumentative tactic, eh),

Actually, my question has been the same from the start. I did, admittedly, have to dumb it down a lot so that certain types could follow. But, in that, I have failed. Because it clearly didn't work.

but I'm happy to see that you have confirmed that you also agree that 'illegal scripting for skill gain' does indeed have SOME impact on everyone involved in UO;

It has the exact same impact as all the legal methods that EA has put in place. The same. No unique impacts.

and since it is illegal (~since it is against the rules of the game) it is a matter of simple logic to deduce that that impact is negative.

But the other methods that have the exact same impact are positive? Because of the label? Gotcha. One is bad even though it does exactly the same thing. All because of its label. I have been saying that for days.

Case closed (the thread still isn't, although you've hinted that you might like for it to be, a few times).
Good job everybody
Reward:

Me? No way. I want this thread to continue forever. I don't need to hint. I am man enough to come out and say anything I want said. Like this for example, you are wrong. You have no ability when it comes to using logic. You miss every point made against you and still tell yourself that you don't.

See. I said what I felt. No hinting needed.

However, I did recently get a pretty serious message from someone about a certain regular poster on this thread. And what I was told wasn't very pleasant. So, in order to limit my risks in regards to what I have heard has happened before with that poster, I won't be commenting to them any longer. The last thing I need is that sort of attention. I mean, wow. I know some people get worked up about being wrong. But to take things to that level is, honestly, quite overboard.

I will, however, continue to respond to other people that attempt to make points but end up contradicting themselves over and over. At least until 'a certain person' succeeds in getting the thread shut down.

To sum up what I have been saying from day one.

1. Scripting skills has the exact same impact as the other 'skill simplification' methods that EA has made 'legal'.

2. The only, and that's only, complaint has been that it is 'illegal' or 'cheating'. And people have insisted on making a moral stand against 'cheating'. Which I can accept. However, if the only problem with something is that it is illegal, and there are many many things that accomplish the same thing that are 'legal', then having that act labeled as 'illegal' does nothing more than cause animosity between the sides. As you have proven.

3. No one has been able to name ONE example of a unique impact that it has on others. Not one. Plenty of people have said 'its bad cause its cheating' but that doesn't really answer WHY its bad. I know, its illegal. And doing it is 'cheating'. And people that do it are 'morally bankrupt'. But the simple fact is that EA has realized that many players do not enjoy the over and over grind that is repeat skill training. As such, they have added options to the game that make that act less of an issue. If A, B and C all do the same thing and have the same exact impact. And B and C are legal while A is illegal. There is no logical reason why A should remain illegal.

Again, the facts are the facts. Neither my opinion nor your opinion changes that. And, unlike others on this thread, I have maintained the same opinion throughout.

From my very first post on this thread....

Aren't there much more important things that GM's could be doing with their time than running around after people doing nothing but training a skill? I can name ten right here.

1. Finding Resource scripters
2. Finding Heartwood Quest scripters
3. Finding runic hammer dupers
4. Helping people with 'items under the house' issues
5. Finding speedhackers
6. Finding field runner through-ers (if they exist of course)
7. Finding pvp scripters
8. Answering player pages regarding bugs
9. Watching pvp in order to get 'balancing' information to pass on to developers
10. Supporting EM's during EM events.

Same opinion as I have now.

 

[AesSedai]

- For any argument to attempt to have any credence, one should provide examples to prove their point. Sarsmi's example was perfectly sound, as it is a completely valid analogy between cheating in two different games: UO & poker.

Wrong. Poker doesn't have 'rules' in place that allow someone to buy an Ace up their sleeve. You get what you are dealt. Period. No amount of bonus money can get you an extra ace up your sleeve.

- It is a perfectly sound example because UO doesn't have any rules in place that allows someone to illegally script skill gain. It has legal methods to gain skills, which you have mentioned plenty (just like poker has legal ways to obtain an Ace to play with). But, just as I quoted you admitting in my last post, illegally scripting skill gain has SOME impact above and beyond the legal methods of skill gain (just as hiding an Ace up your sleeve in poker has SOME impact above and beyond legal methods of obtaining an Ace).

I'd love to break down some of the other misconceptions you had regarding my last post, but it may have to wait a few hours. I have other things to attend to atm.
Cheers

 

[D'Amavir]

- It is a perfectly sound example because UO doesn't have any rules in place that allows someone to illegally script skill gain. It has legal methods to gain skills, which you have mentioned plenty (just like poker has legal ways to obtain an Ace to play with).

UO has rules in place that allow someone to skip the manual training of their character. See the point? There is NO rule in poker allowing you to get a bonus ace up your sleeve. But there IS a rule in UO that allows someone to skip having to train manually.

But, just as I quoted you admitting in my last post, illegally scripting skill gain has SOME impact above and beyond the legal methods of skill gain (just as hiding an Ace up your sleeve in poker has SOME impact above and beyond legal methods of obtaining an Ace).

What is the impact? If scripting skills was legal, what additional impact would be in place that isn't currently there with the other options?

I'd love to break down some of the other misconceptions you had regarding my last post, but it may have to wait a few hours. I have other things to attend to atm.
Cheers

Sure. I believe ya. After all, no one would ever lie on this board. Nevah.

 

[D'Amavir]

- It is a perfectly sound example because UO doesn't have any rules in place that allows someone to illegally script skill gain. It has legal methods to gain skills, which you have mentioned plenty (just like poker has legal ways to obtain an Ace to play with). But, just as I quoted you admitting in my last post, illegally scripting skill gain has SOME impact above and beyond the legal methods of skill gain (just as hiding an Ace up your sleeve in poker has SOME impact above and beyond legal methods of obtaining an Ace).

I'd love to break down some of the other misconceptions you had regarding my last post, but it may have to wait a few hours. I have other things to attend to atm.
Cheers

This is a last ditch effort to make you understand why the 'poker' example doesn't work. And, this is using YOUR logic so try not to claim I am 'contradicting' myself when I use it.

Poker has no rule in place allowing someone to 'buy' an ace up their sleeve in order to use in the game. If, for example, there was a rule created that allowed people to just buy whatever cards they wanted, it would ruin the integrity of the game itself. Gone would be the 'play with the hands you are dealt' aspect of poker. If would become less about who played their cards better and more about who had the most cash to speed to get the best hand.

Now, relate that to UO. The one complain, outside of the 'its bad cause its illegal' garbage, is that scripting skills give an advantage over those that don't. Now, in the beginning of UO (97), that would have been a valid argument. Then, someone could say that they had to manually train the skills they had while others could just script it. Now, in this age of UO, that argument has been trumped by EA themselves. It is legal to buy soulstones. But, if you can't afford them, you are at a disadvantage against those that do. It is legal to buy advanced characters. But, if you can't afford them, you are at a disadvantage against those that do. It is legal to buy accounts. But, if you can't afford them, you are at a disadvantage against those that do.

See? EA has placed things into the game that give those willing to spend real money an advantage over those that don't. Is that right or wrong? That's a matter of opinion of course. However, those things do exist and disadvantages and advantages ARE in fact created because of them.

Now, the subject of scripting skills comes up and people go crazy (in some cases, literally. In most just figuratively.) about it. They claim that allowing someone to script their skills would cause disadvantages for those that don't. But EA has already shown that they are ok with those sorts of disadvantages. A, B and C are all legal and each give advantages over others. D, which does the exact same thing, is illegal and the only thing it being illegal ADDS to the game is animosity. Do you really believe that it being illegal has curbed its use at all? I don't believe that at all. I know people that have been scripting skills for a decade now. EA has shown that they can't stop it completely. They just can't. So, since they can't stop it and they have already added other things to the game that do the same thing, how does keeping it illegal really help?

In the beginning years of UO, UOA was the equivalent of the current 'spend extra money' to get an advantage over those that don't. People with UOA could do tasks much easier than those that didn't have it. They could do things that were virtually impossible to do without it. EA (OSI, Origin, whoever) saw this and, instead of waging war on UOA, chose instead to name it as a 'approved third party tool', thus allowing this disadvantage to continue.

 

[AesSedai]

- Sorry, no time to read all you wrote right now. You think it is an excuse then why don't you come on over and watch me, or better yet help me

But, Poker also has rules in place (in some games) that call for jokers or other cards to be wild (so, just like UO, there are rules in poker that allow one to actually get an Ace without having or drawing one, if that's the point you're trying to make... while at the same time it is still against the rules to put an Ace up one's sleeve). Much similar to EA allowing you to pay for advanced characters in UO (which that money goes to EA, which is necessary in order for UO to survive).

But get this: UO does not have any method to skip manual training re: skill gaining the way that illegal skill scripting does - There is no way to get to GM or 120 skill without exerting more effort than downloading an illegal program and pushing a button. Illegal scripting, by your own admittance allows one to get their faster with less effort.

Your advanced character excuse is the most valid you have, but even then it does not GM or 120 a character's skill, and it also carries the caveat of contributing to the UO coffers that keep this game going, unlike illegal skill scripting.

You are looking for a simple linear answer, when the answer and realities of this entire situation are much more dynamic than a simple line between two points.

Why does it have an impact? Because it is illegal and allows you to do things that simply are not possible to do when legally playing UO (otherwise illegal scripting skill gain would be legal as you seem to think it should be). Because it negatively affects everyone involved in UO (how? Well for one because it is illegal and provides an, as admitted by you, benefit that legal players do not have - Because if it did not provide a benefit you wouldn't be doing it, would you?). Because of the dozens of other perfectly valid reasons that others have presented to you in this thread.

 

[D'Amavir]

-
But get this: UO does not have any method to skip manual training re: skill gaining the way that illegal skill scripting does - There is no way to get to GM or 120 skill without exerting more effort than downloading an illegal program and pushing a button. Illegal scripting, by your own admittance allows one to get their faster with less effort.

Buying accounts is legal. Much faster by far than scripting skills.

Your advanced character excuse is the most valid you have, but even then it does not GM or 120 a character's skill, and it also carries the caveat of contributing to the UO coffers that keep this game going, unlike illegal skill scripting.

Again, buying accounts is legal AND the money doesn't go to EA when one player sells his 6X Legendary account to another player.

You are looking for a simple linear answer, when the answer and realities of this entire situation are much more dynamic than a simple line between two points.

No. I am looking for information.

Why does it have an impact? Because it is illegal and allows you to do things that simply are not possible to do when legally playing UO

You keep falling back on the 'it has an impact because it is illegal'. If it was not illegal, you could not keep falling back to that excuse. Then it would just be another of EA's ways to allow people to skip some tedium.

(otherwise illegal scripting skill gain would be legal as you seem to think it should be). Because it negatively affects everyone involved in UO (how? Well for one because it is illegal

Again, you are stuck on the label. You are answering things like "Why shouldn't it be legal?" with "It shouldn't be legal because its illegal."

and provides an, as admitted by you, benefit that legal players do not have

But ALL players have the benefit if its 'legal'. Not just people willing to spend real money for something.

Because if it did not provide a benefit you wouldn't be doing it, would you?).

Of course it has a benefit. No one is denying it has a benefit. The benefit that is has is exactly the same benefit that EA has already made changes to provide.

Because of the dozens of other perfectly valid reasons that others have presented to you in this thread.

No one has given a valid reason, yet. No one. Even you keep saying things like "its shouldn't be legal because its illegal" and "it hurts people because its illegal" to answer "Why is it illegal while other things just the same aren't?"

I know its difficult to answer that question. But I would expect at least one person could come up with a reason why its illegal while other things exactly the same aren't.

When EA removes things like advanced characters, soulstones and account buying, then and only then will the 'it gives people an advantage' argument even come close to being a fitting answer. ALL of those things give an advantage. ALL of them are legal EXCEPT the one. THAT is the point. THAT is the question. THAT is the issue.

Over and over its just been the same tired comment of 'its illegal because its illegal' followed by the same tired people jumping up and shouting how brilliant of a point that is. Sadly, its not brilliant nor is it a point.

IF A, B and C give XX advantage and are legal, why is D which gives XX advantage not legal? I know, because its illegal. We got that part. But why? I know, because its illegal. Got it. But why? Because its illegal. Ok, I heard that. But why? Because its illegal. Jeez, we know! But why? Because its illegal.

Ok, so you can't say anything other than 'because its illegal'. Let's try this route, why do you think it shouldn't be made legal like the other things that do the same thing? Because its illegal. Ya, I know. But why don't you think it should be made legal like the other things that do the same thing? Because its illegal. Ok, broken record. Got it.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, because its illegal.

 

[Sarsmi]

Which is my point. You are against the label, not any made up 'damage' that you keep trying to make up into existing.

Yes I am against doing anything illegal in UO because by definition doing something illegal in game is cheating. I believe in fair play. I'm not the only person who feels this way, there are lots of us. Which means that people who use scripts willingly create an unequal situation because always there will exist players who refuse to cheat. Knowing this, you do it anyways.

Scripting skill gain has the exact same impact that all other skill gain methods have. It has no, that's NO, unique impacts.

Of course it does. All cheating has an impact on the game, the people who cheat, and the other players. Lets see. An impatient teenage UO player:

I could run a script every night while I'm sleeping to finish off my char. Yay! GM hiding etc etc. Now I can go camp idocs earlier than I would have before, and grab some leet lewt that the other camper at the idoc would have gotten had I been busy legitimately training my skills instead of breezing my way through them by cheating. I didn't even have to use daddy's credit card to buy an advanced character token - I couldn't find it anyways, and I could have powergamed but mom makes me get off the computer at 10. So three cheers for scripting! Yayayay!

Like that scenario? I was gonna work in some teenage slang but I don't know what those crazy kids say these days. Shucks!

Exactly. IF everyone could do it, it would have ZERO impact.

IF everyone could do it, it would have zero impact? As in "if they could it would, but since they can't it doesn't?" I think you dun talked yerself into a corner there, dagnabit!

Sure, I am the one that declares what is right or wrong when it comes to my opinion. If I disagree with a rule, a law, an opinion or a view, I will question it. Because I can.

If you concede that right to yourself then you have to concede it to everyone. Which means in any game you play anyone you play against will have the same right to question a rule and cheat if they feel like it wouldn't hurt anyone. Would you really want to spend your life playing games with people who interpret and reject rules according to their own beliefs? That sounds pretty awful to me...

Right. So make script skill gain legal since, otherwise, people that can't afford to buy soulstones, advanced characters or accounts are at a disadvantage. As are those that can't play as many hours a day as powergamers. Thanks again for helping me make my points.

It's not legal and I can't. But please fee free to write your congressman or state representative and try to get this awful, awful abuse of human rights invoked. It's shocking what they won't allow us to do! Oh wait, it's just a game, and its one of the game rules. Well maybe email chrissay? I'm sure she'll want to hear all about how you've been "fighting the good fight" so be sure to include your account information and lots of anecdotes about how you cheat because otherwise the game is no fun.

I'm sure her sympathy will be immense and she'll do what she can to correct this horrific situation. How many characters did you have to GM or get to legendary again?? Dozens wasn't it? And who was holding a gun to your head making you repeat those actions over and over to gain skill? Er? No one you say? Hrm, well maybe she'll understand your plight anyways...I'd still send the email if I were you, ASAP. /helpful

Wanna bet? I will make a wager with you right here and now that, should I win, you will accept my viewpoint and if I lose, I will accept yours. Deal?

Wow, a non specific challenge about a bet in which the rules haven't been defined. Given from someone who already admits to breaking the rules when they don't care for them. Haha, I think I'll pass. I'm still looking into buying this lovely bridge I saw for sale on craig's list.

That makes zero sense. Maybe in the game you play, there are a bunch of people that don't have money to place a house and won't have it unless they script their skill. But, in the game I play, gold drops from the sky and its very easy to get enough to place a house.

On a brand new shard no one has gold. Cause...it's like totally brand new, dude. New shard, everyone is equal. Well, until the scripters start up their engines.

Not true. Want an example? Stat loss. Years of whining about pk's got it added to the game. People complained. People like you claimed it was 'too late' to complain about it. Guess what? Stat loss was removed.

I pick my battles, I campaign for change where I think it would be likely to happen and try to come up with ideas that would make it more attractive or feasible. I cannot imagine they would ever remove advanced character tokens, and I don't feel any particular desire to start a petition about them in particular. If I was the type I would have other fish I'd prefer frying. Or baking rather, it's much healthier for you.

EA supports people using different things to speed up skill training. They intentionally put things in the game to HELP that. But you aren't whining about those for days. All because of a label.

I don't even want to count how many times you have said this. I would run out of fingers and toes! (again) By the act of something being against the rules of the game it's nature is changed.

Reread the things you said. Lies are there clearly.

Yeah we're debating our opinions. Where is the lie in that? Can you prove that anything you have said about skill gain scripting being a victimless crime is a fact? If you could prove your argument with actual facts there would be no need for an argument, and this thread would have never turned into the soul sucking hydra it has become.

Personal attacks? Really? That's how you want to get this thread locked so you don't have to take me up on my wager and have to admit defeat? Ok, get it locked then. You admitted you were immature. I agreed. My name is David. If you call me David, its not a personal attack since I just admitted it was my name.

haha you called me immature, greedy etc all that junk pretty early on. I don't recall asking you to give me your personal opinion of me, you just volunteered. For the record of any mods are reading this and not skimming (like I'd sooo be doing) Please don't lock this thread just because D'amavir can't keep it in his pants! I don't care about the numerous attacks he has reverted to making on my person in lieu of providing a reasonable argument against my salient and well-written points!
*whew* Does that work for you?

2. You think that people that use things like powergaming, soulstones, advanced characters, buying accounts and scripting skills are hurting the game. Again, that is your right to have that opinion.

I never said that. And it's more complicated than "hurtz" or "don't"

From a broad perspective anytime gold enters the economy and doesn't leave it helps inflation along, so for the most part just playing the game hurts the game. That is what I meant when I said it is more complicated. It's not just that the game is hurt, it's how it is hurt that is important.

Two words for you, and I know this will be wayyyyy over your head but still, Jean Valjean.

You're comparing a character who stole bread so they wouldn't starve to someone who cheats in an online game? Again, comparing the rules of a game to real life laws do you no credit. I'd stop if I were you, and pretend it never happened. Just walk away from it, don't go too quickly or you'll draw attention.

You don't see how many times your view has changed throughout this thread. Its hilarious to me. Make up your mind. Or, whatever it is that passes for such in your kind.

I have shaped and clarified but not altered my views. I'd ask for an example but I saw how well you did with my "lie" request. I really hope you aren't a civil servant, this could well be the reason for the long lines at the DMV.

And, let me know about that wager. I can give you details as soon as you say you want to take part. I will win, guaranteed. So I hope you agree to wager.

Yeah awful tempting. I agree and then you tell me the rules? And then you cheat anyways, cause that's what you do? No thanks? Oop email dinged, I hope it's about my bridge bid!

 

[Sarsmi]

Oh man I just thought of another way skill scripting hurts the game, and quite a bit. EA sells advanced character tokens, but why buy them when you can just cheat instead? So EA gets cheated out of money, which in turn means they make less profit and there is now less money to devote to working on the game.

 

[Sarsmi]

However, I did recently get a pretty serious message from someone about a certain regular poster on this thread.

Ooh ooh was it me? Was it??

And what I was told wasn't very pleasant. So, in order to limit my risks in regards to what I have heard has happened before with that poster, I won't be commenting to them any longer. The last thing I need is that sort of attention. I mean, wow. I know some people get worked up about being wrong. But to take things to that level is, honestly, quite overboard.

Man, you see one tasty looking baby and the next thing you know people are screaming and throwing rocks and you have to run out of town and...er...nm. I really really hope it's me! I love a good story just as much as the next person! Want to share it? I'm sure the person who wrote you won't mind...

You probably can't post it here though, you'll have to go to the stratics Off Topic No Holds Barred™ forum where you can call me a poopy pants among other things if you so choose. Gotta be over 18 to play in the mud though.

 

[HD2300]

I've come to the conclusion that nothing effective will be ever done about scripting. What is it? 10 years? Nada. Nothing. Zip.

EA just doesnt want to stop it, so why not just allow scripting as long as it is attended. Not there? Ban that account for 21 days. UO's unique selling point can be it allows attended scripting. If it is legal, existing customers will open up more accounts.

 

[D'Amavir]

Yes I am against doing anything illegal in UO because by definition doing something illegal in game is cheating. I believe in fair play. I'm not the only person who feels this way, there are lots of us. Which means that people who use scripts willingly create an unequal situation because always there will exist players who refuse to cheat. Knowing this, you do it anyways.

Fair play is advanced characters for those that want to pay real money for them? Oh, you mean fair for you. Got it.

Of course it does. All cheating has an impact on the game, the people who cheat, and the other players. Lets see. An impatient teenage UO player:

I could run a script every night while I'm sleeping to finish off my char. Yay! GM hiding etc etc. Now I can go camp idocs earlier than I would have before, and grab some leet lewt that the other camper at the idoc would have gotten had I been busy legitimately training my skills instead of breezing my way through them by cheating. I didn't even have to use daddy's credit card to buy an advanced character token - I couldn't find it anyways, and I could have powergamed but mom makes me get off the computer at 10. So three cheers for scripting! Yayayay!

Let that same teenager GM his hiding with a script and then let some other teenager just buy a 6xLegendary account. I guess the GM hider from scripting still wins huh?

Like that scenario? I was gonna work in some teenage slang but I don't know what those crazy kids say these days. Shucks!

I loved it because it gave me yet another chance to put out how wrong you are.

IF everyone could do it, it would have zero impact? As in "if they could it would, but since they can't it doesn't?"

No, as in the only thing you can come up with for how it is damaging to the game is because its illegal. Over and over. So, take away that ONE impact and it has zero impacts.

I think you dun talked yerself into a corner there, dagnabit!

Fraid not.

If you concede that right to yourself then you have to concede it to everyone. Which means in any game you play anyone you play against will have the same right to question a rule and cheat if they feel like it wouldn't hurt anyone. Would you really want to spend your life playing games with people who interpret and reject rules according to their own beliefs? That sounds pretty awful to me...

I play a game that has a board where people can bring up their opinions and discuss them. Do I want to play a game or live in a world even where people CAN'T question rules and laws that they think don't make sense? Nope. Good thing I don't have to.

It's not legal and I can't. But please fee free to write your congressman or state representative and try to get this awful, awful abuse of human rights invoked. It's shocking what they won't allow us to do! Oh wait, it's just a game, and its one of the game rules. Well maybe email chrissay? I'm sure she'll want to hear all about how you've been "fighting the good fight" so be sure to include your account information and lots of anecdotes about how you cheat because otherwise the game is no fun.

Not sure why I have to email anyone in order to express my opinions. Is that how it works for you? Not me. I just give my opinions.

I'm sure her sympathy will be immense and she'll do what she can to correct this horrific situation. How many characters did you have to GM or get to legendary again?? Dozens wasn't it?

24 currently. Was more than that but I shut off some of my accounts.

And who was holding a gun to your head making you repeat those actions over and over to gain skill? Er? No one you say? Hrm, well maybe she'll understand your plight anyways...I'd still send the email if I were you, ASAP. /helpful

Make up your mind, did I repeat those actions over and over again or did I just 'cheat'? You keep changing your idea of what I did.

Wow, a non specific challenge about a bet in which the rules haven't been defined. Given from someone who already admits to breaking the rules when they don't care for them. Haha, I think I'll pass. I'm still looking into buying this lovely bridge I saw for sale on craig's list.

Of course you will pass. It was a simple challenge. You claimed that someone scripting skill and buying an advanced character was, and I quote ".and powergamers who use an adv token and script skill gain will do it the fastest." which is clearly incorrect. Either you are wrong or you are admitting you are lying when you say that. A simple challenge would prove that statement wrong then you can decide which route you wanted to take to justify it.

On a brand new shard no one has gold. Cause...it's like totally brand new, dude. New shard, everyone is equal. Well, until the scripters start up their engines.

Oh ya, brand new shards. We get those daily. Like Atlantic, I heard that new one is opening soon. I can't wait!

I pick my battles, I campaign for change where I think it would be likely to happen and try to come up with ideas that would make it more attractive or feasible.

Me too.

I cannot imagine they would ever remove advanced character tokens, and I don't feel any particular desire to start a petition about them in particular.

So you are ok with people getting an advantage over others? Hmm, another change of viewpoint from you. Shocking.

I don't even want to count how many times you have said this. I would run out of fingers and toes! (again) By the act of something being against the rules of the game it's nature is changed.

Sometimes that is true. In this case, its not. If the ONLY issue with it is that its illegal, as you keep saying over and over, why make it illegal? Most things that are illegal are illegal for a reason. Not illegal just because they are illegal.

Yeah we're debating our opinions. Where is the lie in that? Can you prove that anything you have said about skill gain scripting being a victimless crime is a fact? If you could prove your argument with actual facts there would be no need for an argument, and this thread would have never turned into the soul sucking hydra it has become.

You are one to talk about facts with your constant swap between viewpoints. I have stayed on target from the start. You should try that sometimes.

haha you called me immature, greedy etc all that junk pretty early on. I don't recall asking you to give me your personal opinion of me, you just volunteered.

And I stand by that, especially since you admitted it being true.

For the record of any mods are reading this and not skimming (like I'd sooo be doing) Please don't lock this thread just because D'amavir can't keep it in his pants! I don't care about the numerous attacks he has reverted to making on my person in lieu of providing a reasonable argument against my salient and well-written points!
*whew* Does that work for you?

Well, according to what I have heard, what you say publicly differs from what you say privately. I have the integrity to say anything I saw in private in public as well. But, that's just me. Clearly.

From a broad perspective anytime gold enters the economy and doesn't leave it helps inflation along, so for the most part just playing the game hurts the game. That is what I meant when I said it is more complicated. It's not just that the game is hurt, it's how it is hurt that is important.

And how is it hurt? I know, I know, because cheating always hurts. But how? By being cheating it hurts. Yes, but how? Because cheating always hurts. Gotcha.

You're comparing a character who stole bread so they wouldn't starve to someone who cheats in an online game? Again, comparing the rules of a game to real life laws do you no credit. I'd stop if I were you, and pretend it never happened. Just walk away from it, don't go too quickly or you'll draw attention.

Ya, I said in advance that it would be over your head. Thanks for proving me right again.

I have shaped and clarified but not altered my views. I'd ask for an example but I saw how well you did with my "lie" request. I really hope you aren't a civil servant, this could well be the reason for the long lines at the DMV.

Really? "Script skills hurts the game and kills the economy so it shouldnt be allowed!" "If it was legal I would be the first to do it."

Those were you. I guess you don't care about killing the economy after all, huh?

Yeah awful tempting. I agree and then you tell me the rules? And then you cheat anyways, cause that's what you do? No thanks? Oop email dinged, I hope it's about my bridge bid!

Ya, good cop out. If I were you I would hate to be proven wrong as well. I assume at least. Since, thank gawd, I am not you. So I don't know for sure. I only go by what I see and what I see isn't pretty. Or logical. Or even able to carry on a decent conversation. I expect too much I guess.

 

[D'Amavir]

I've come to the conclusion that nothing effective will be ever done about scripting. What is it? 10 years? Nada. Nothing. Zip.

EA just doesnt want to stop it, so why not just allow scripting as long as it is attended. Not there? Ban that account for 21 days. UO's unique selling point can be it allows attended scripting. If it is legal, existing customers will open up more accounts.

Exactly.

 

[Sarsmi]

Fair play is advanced characters for those that want to pay real money for them? Oh, you mean fair for you. Got it.

Uh, well lets see. Tokens are available to everyone and anyone can buy them so yes, they are fair?

Let that same teenager GM his hiding with a script and then let some other teenager just buy a 6xLegendary account. I guess the GM hider from scripting still wins huh?

What does that have to do with the prcie of apples? Actually yeah the GM hider still wins cause the tamer gets pwnd at the idoc by a bunch of red archers and the hider stealths around them. AGAIN I come up with a plausible scenario to show how skill gain cheating hurts legit players and again you try to deflect the point with some pointless sideline.

I play a game that has a board where people can bring up their opinions and discuss them. Do I want to play a game or live in a world even where people CAN'T question rules and laws that they think don't make sense? Nope. Good thing I don't have to.

You really seem enamored of the idea that the rules of a game are analogous to real life laws. Newsflash: they aren't. Certainly comparitive situations exist, but as a system real life laws do not have absolutes. Game rules are absolutes based on what the rule makers decide. Games are closed systems, real life is not.

Not sure why I have to email anyone in order to express my opinions. Is that how it works for you? Not me. I just give my opinions.

I thought you wanted to fight for the cause? Free the slaves of legal gameplay? Get scripting put in the game! Isn't that one of the reasons you said you cheat? To fight the good fight? Well email her your opinions, stand up for them! Don't be scared to push your agenda, it's something you obviously feel passionate about! Please don't forget those account names, either!

Make up your mind, did I repeat those actions over and over again or did I just 'cheat'? You keep changing your idea of what I did.

Uh, you were cheating and thus the actions were repeated over and over? You pushed the big red 'cheat' button and your character started doing the hokey pokey and finshed with the lambada to get Dancing to GM? Dude, you're really reaching now.

Of course you will pass. It was a simple challenge. You claimed that someone scripting skill and buying an advanced character was, and I quote ".and powergamers who use an adv token and script skill gain will do it the fastest." which is clearly incorrect. Either you are wrong or you are admitting you are lying when you say that. A simple challenge would prove that statement wrong then you can decide which route you wanted to take to justify it.

You did not (and still haven't really) outlined the nature of the challenge and are already an admitted cheater. I want to see a show of hands of the people who would accept a wager with you knowing those things. Ok now those of you with your hands up, take out your wallets and toss them in the trash, cause trust me, you'll just lose your cash anyways.

BTW this sounds like the kind of challenge that involves skill scripting, which obviously I don't endorse, so I couldn't be a party to it anyways.

Oh ya, brand new shards. We get those daily. Like Atlantic, I heard that new one is opening soon. I can't wait!

You know maybe in hindsight you should have said something like "ok show me a way that skill scripting impacts other players all the time every day like a TON" instead of what you DID say, and then it wouldn't be so easy to come up with dozens of examples of how skill scripting can hurt others. Your bad?

So you are ok with people getting an advantage over others? Hmm, another change of viewpoint from you. Shocking.

How is this a change in viewpoint? Find one quote from me that says that players having a legal advantage over others is flat out wrong, and I'll buy you a cookie. You should probably make bullet points of what I actually say so you can refer back to them instead of just making it up as you go along.

Sometimes that is true. In this case, its not. If the ONLY issue with it is that its illegal, as you keep saying over and over, why make it illegal? Most things that are illegal are illegal for a reason. Not illegal just because they are illegal.

Why do you keep asking me why it is illegal? Why ask me "why is it illegal?" I gave you my guesses about what the devs intended earlier. They're just guesses, I don't know. If you want their reasons email chrissay.

You are one to talk about facts with your constant swap between viewpoints. I have stayed on target from the start. You should try that sometimes.

I've always had the exact same viewpoint, but your comprehension of what I'm saying seems to be all over the map. I'm not going to rehash my views, you can go back and read my previous replies if you want.

And I stand by that, especially since you admitted it being true.

Right, and you don't attack other people unlike the people in this thread.

Well, according to what I have heard, what you say publicly differs from what you say privately. I have the integrity to say anything I saw in private in public as well. But, that's just me. Clearly.

Oooh, more vague off the cuff references to unprovable slander! I would defend myself if I didn't have a big ol case of the giggles right now. And a powerful hunger for delicious baby meat...man, how these rumors get started I'll just never know...

And how is it hurt? I know, I know, because cheating always hurts. But how? By being cheating it hurts. Yes, but how? Because cheating always hurts. Gotcha

Go back and reread the zillion points I made about this. Sorry about your short term memory problems btw.

Ya, I said in advance that it would be over your head. Thanks for proving me right again.

Two words for you: spongebob squarepants. If you don't get that, well, it's totally over your head man. TOTALLY over it. *nods sagely*

Really? "Script skills hurts the game and kills the economy so it shouldnt be allowed!" "If it was legal I would be the first to do it."

Those were you. I guess you don't care about killing the economy after all, huh?

I already gave reasoning on this point like 7 pages ago. Yet more rehash from the dredge-up-old-points master.

Ya, good cop out. If I were you I would hate to be proven wrong as well. I assume at least. Since, thank gawd, I am not you. So I don't know for sure. I only go by what I see and what I see isn't pretty. Or logical. Or even able to carry on a decent conversation. I expect too much I guess.

I live in mortal terror that some anonymous person on teh interwebz is going to prove me wrong!!! My therapist says this is why I eat all those babies. Oh god, such a vicious cycle.

Dude you got anything better than "I nu u wuz skered" and "ur dum n ugly LOLOL"? It's a big overplayed, really.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I think it's time I called a halt to this. You two may continue by pm if you so wish.