Illegal house desgn?

[D'Amavir]

Saying over and over and over that 'scripting skill gain hurts everyone' doesn't answer the question of how it hurts anyone.

"Why is the sky blue?"
"The sky is blue because the sky is blue"
"But why is it blue?"
"The sky is blue because the sky is blue"

So, why is the sky blue?

 

[D'Amavir]

Just to make you feel better.

1 Take my monk robe example.
2 Now think about how, just as with the monk robe example, the Devs. have spent countless hours dealing with skill gain over the years, as a result of people abusing skill gains (8x8, no 8x8, golems, golems that deal damage.... many many more changes; if you care to stop and think about it).
3 Now think about how, just as with the two examples above, the Devs. have spent countless hours on the illegal scripting situation over the years.

All of which would have been unnecessary had they simply changed the label on scripting for skill gain. I think you proved my point quite well, thank you.

Eureka!: All three are related and all three are examples of how breaking rules, by cheating, directly affect and impact everyone involved in UO.

Those changes were to address skill gain in general. Not specifically scripted skill gain. If you want to discuss how skill gain in general affects other people, feel free. But its not something I am interested in really.

I really didn't think I had to spell it out to you by making a direct correlation between obviously similar forms of cheating that some, perhaps even you, tend to dismiss as being 'victimless'. Thought you could connect A and B. I'm disappointed, heh (not really, I'm just toying with a phrase you used earlier in what looked to be an attempt to try to get some added leverage behind your statements ).

Victimless means there is no victim. We are discussing one form of 'cheating' not 'cheating' in general. Focus.

I guess you misunderstood where I was pointing out to you that jaywalking is not as harmless of an activity as you think and places consider it to be illegal for a reason, no matter how arbitrary you feel the rule is.
Can you grasp how that concept (concept of the affects of jaywalking), which you brought up as a comparison, can loosely relate to illegally scripting skill gain in UO?

You are misunderstanding. Let me try once more before the thread gets locked. Would you, personally, rather have ten cops out hunting jaywalkers or ten cops out stopping murders? Does that mean jaywalking isn't illegal? No. But in terms of priority, its fairly low.

Granted jaywalking is not murder but it has killed people and is against the law in many places...

Really? Its against the law? I never knew that. Especially when I brought it up as an example of something that was illegal. So, in your country, illegal means against the law? Got it.

Yet, I would consider scripting skill gain to be more more harmful than jaywalking; more like what the chaps at Enron did to their fellow employees when they cheated and destroyed their company's micro-economy even though they probably fooled themselves into thinking it was a victimless crime.

Yes, you not getting your shinies as early as someone else is exactly like someone wrecking the real life economy. Totally.

Dangit, why did I bring that up? Sorry all, I shouldn't have started another detour in this funny little journey of a thread.

Shocking.

(Btw, don't even bother trying to further derail the subject and try to imply that I am against legal scripting. I have no problems with legally 'scripting' skill gain with UO or UOA while attended...

But if EA said that scripting skill gain was suddenly legal you would still be on this board daily whining about it. Got it.

I am only in this thread because I'm concerned with cheating & breaking the rules of UO.

Sure you are.

Sometimes cheaters need to be reminded that they're being naughty and affecting others with their actions, imo.)

Please. Remind me how. Just once. Tell me how those people scripting poisoning in their house is affecting you. Or taming. Or provoking. Anything. Just remind me one time.

 

[AesSedai]

- Well you can say the sky is purple all you want but that does not make it true

Saying over and over and over that 'scripting skill gain hurts everyone' doesn't answer the question of how it hurts anyone...

- How does scripting skill gain hurt anyone?
Answer: The top half of this post, specifically:

... 2 Now think about how, just as with the monk robe example, the Devs. have spent countless hours dealing with skill gain over the years, as a result of people abusing skill gains (8x8, no 8x8, golems, golems that deal damage.... many many more changes; if you care to stop and think about it).
3 Now think about how, just as with the two examples above, the Devs. have spent countless hours on the illegal scripting situation over the years.

=

Eureka!: All three are related and all three are examples of how breaking rules, by cheating, directly affect and impact everyone involved in UO...

- If you play UO then what the Devs. have to spend their time on directly affects us & guess what that hurts everyone that is not perfectly content with UO... so yeah, there is the proof you were looking for that proves scripting skill gain defintely hurts someone.

Did you even read this thread?

 

[D'Amavir]

- Well you can say the sky is purple all you want but that does not make it true - How does scripting skill gain hurt anyone?
Answer: The top half of this post, specifically:- If you play UO then what the Devs. have to spend their time on directly affects us & guess what that hurts everyone that is not perfectly content with UO... so yeah, there is the proof you were looking for that proves scripting skill gain defintely hurts someone.

Did you even read this thread?

And again, since you can't seem to read it for yourself. Those changes were made because of skill gain in general. Not specifically scripting skill gain. Just like power hour was added because of skill gain issues, not scripting skill gain issues.

How the devs spend their time DOES affect us. Which is why, as I stated before, they should focus more on things that DO impact us instead of things like scripting skill gain that don't.

What affects your day to day play more? Someone beside you with 120 taming or someone duping runic hammers? Someone beside you with 120 swords or someone speedhacking? Someone beside you with GM poisoning or someone scripting heartwood quests?

Yes, I know you will answer the skill scripters for each of those things. But, we both know that's not true.

 

[AesSedai]

- You're right, the sky must be purple.
Explain to me once, just once, how to comprehend logic so masterfully.

 

[D'Amavir]

- You're right, the sky must be purple.
Explain to me once, just once, how to comprehend logic so masterfully.

The sky is purple because its purple. And, the reason its purple is because its purple. There, I used your logic since it seems to work so well for you.

Its impossibly, usually, to prove a negative. You claim that it impacts other people. The burden of proof is on you. But, since you can't do that, I think the judge says case dismissed.

All you had to do was come up with ONE way that 'scripting skill gain' impacts other people. Not skill gain, not jaywalking, not duping, not monk's robes and not speedhacking. But, you didn't. Sure, you told me about those other things. But not about the one thing that I asked you. One thing.

 

[Sarsmi]

Being first to get something doesn't prevent anyone from getting that same something later. So, you can get your shinies and anything else you want whenever you get them. Not sure how that 'wins' anything for you.

Just about everyone who has played this game for a while knows that when the introduce a new event or scenario initially the items go for tons of gold and then peter off as people find out how easy they are to get. So yeah, the first person to get their skill up and find those shinies is going to be the person who benefits most. It's pretty simple.

That's an example you can't argue against, which means I 'win' the debate.

 

[D'Amavir]

Just about everyone who has played this game for a while knows that when the introduce a new event or scenario initially the items go for tons of gold and then peter off as people find out how easy they are to get. So yeah, the first person to get their skill up and find those shinies is going to be the person who benefits most. It's pretty simple.

That's an example you can't argue against, which means I 'win' the debate.

Again, powergamers get things long before non powergamers. Always have, always will. Same with those that buy advanced characters.

But, if it makes you feel better. You win! And by win, I mean you have proven that all you care about are your gimme gimmes. Congrats!!

"Someone got something before me? WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!"

I am just glad I have more to do in games than get some shinies before anyone else to make myself feel good about myself.

Yet and still, you haven't come up with one example of how someone with scripting skills impacts anyone else. I won't say I win though. For one, because its pretty immature. For another, its just like saying 'We are on UHall'. You know, its just understood.

 

[AesSedai]

All you had to do was come up with ONE way that 'scripting skill gain' impacts other people. Not skill gain, not jaywalking, not duping, not monk's robes and not speedhacking...

- Umm, I already did: It has taken dev. time to address.

& you already agreed with me:

How the devs spend their time DOES affect us.

- I don't want to boggle your mind with any other ways it impacts other people at this moment, for you seem to be in disbelief that this is an example I've offered of how scripting skill gain impacts other people, and an example you've already agreed with; and an example I offered in my first post to you.

But you didn't even explain to me once how you comprehend logic so masterfully.
Did you really just say that because I have no problems with legal scripting of skills (~UO or UOA) that I would have problems with legal scripting by using currently illegal methods if they were deemed legal?
I'm a shinies fiend, really?
Assume much and then deem that the irrevocable truth?
So the sky is purple because you say so. Ok. Got it.

 

[Sarsmi]

Just about everyone who has played this game for a while knows that when the introduce a new event or scenario initially the items go for tons of gold and then peter off as people find out how easy they are to get. So yeah, the first person to get their skill up and find those shinies is going to be the person who benefits most. It's pretty simple.

That's an example you can't argue against, which means I 'win' the debate.

Again, powergamers get things long before non powergamers. Always have, always will. Same with those that buy advanced characters.

But, if it makes you feel better. You win! And by win, I mean you have proven that all you care about are your gimme gimmes. Congrats!!

"Someone got something before me? WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!"

I am just glad I have more to do in games than get some shinies before anyone else to make myself feel good about myself.

Yet and still, you haven't come up with one example of how someone with scripting skills impacts anyone else.

Wow, you want to be right so much you won't acknowledge my point.

I'll break it down for you:

1. Scripters will gain skill faster than legit players.
2. When a new skill comes out scripters will gain in that skill first because of #1.
3. Therefore, if there are items to be gotten from getting their skill up first then scripters will beat out legitimate players to those items.

Capiche?

BTW I'm like the last person to go to events or scenarios that involve a bunch of gimme gimme players. Like I said, I go to ilsh for the bones, don't do champ spawns other than that, and tend to stay away from newly introduced events because of the people. I'll go see what is going on after a few months (like magincia, didn't start collecting threads of whatever till hrm I think it was january?)

I won't say I win though.

Well that's because you didn't, silly. I did.

 

[D'Amavir]

- Umm, I already did: It has taken dev. time to address.

No, it hasn't. Skill gain has. Not scripted skill gain. You know the difference right? One is just skill gain and the other is scripted skill gain.

& you already agreed with me:-

If by agree with you you mean pointing out that it has nothing to do with the discussion, yep. I agree.

I don't want to boggle your mind with any other ways it impacts other people at this moment, for you seem to be in disbelief that this is an example I've offered of how scripting skill gain impacts other people, and an example you've already agreed with; and an example I offered in my first post to you.

And you agreed with me that scripting skill gain should be made legal and that it doesn't impact anyone else. See, I can make stuff up too.

But you didn't even explain to me once how you comprehend logic so masterfully.

Its a gift. I won't ask you how you can't comprehend because, honestly, it would just make me sad for you. More so I mean.

Did you really just say that because I have no problems with legal scripting of skills (~UO or UOA) that I would have problems with legal scripting by using currently illegal methods if they were deemed legal?

Would you? If the label was changed it would suddenly get rid of all those 'impacts' that you claim are there? See, you support my view that it shouldn't be illegal. Thanks.

I'm a shinies fiend, really?
Assume much and then deem that the irrevocable truth?

I don't assume anything. I asked you to give me examples of how scripted skill gain impacts other people. You couldn't. Nuff said there.

So the sky is purple because you say so. Ok. Got it.

Right. And scripted skill gain impacts other people because you said so. Not because you actually came up with any ways that it does. Got it?

 

[D'Amavir]

Wow, you want to be right so much you won't acknowledge my point.

I'll break it down for you:

1. Scripters will gain skill faster than legit players.

Yes they do.

2. When a new skill comes out scripters will gain in that skill first because of #1.

Yes they will.

3. Therefore, if there are items to be gotten from getting their skill up first then scripters will beat out legitimate players to those items.

They will get them faster just like powergamers will get them faster and advanced character buyers will get them faster. But, that does not stop anyone else from being able to get them. If you think skill gain should be faster so you can get your shinies faster, I am ok with that.

BTW I'm like the last person to go to events or scenarios that involve a bunch of gimme gimme players.

And yet everything you say comes down to how much money you can or can't make from selling game items or accounts. Gotcha.

Like I said, I go to ilsh for the bones, don't do champ spawns other than that, and tend to stay away from newly introduced events because of the people. I'll go see what is going on after a few months (like magincia, didn't start collecting threads of whatever till hrm I think it was january?)

So what you are saying is that someone at a champ spawn using scripted skills doesn't impact you. I agree. And I assume that people with scripted skills didn't keep anyone from getting their own threads during magincia either. I know I got all of them I wanted and never had to ask people around me how they got their skills.

Well that's because you didn't, silly. I did.

Absolutely. You definitely win the 'can't make a point' award for this quarter. Well, its actually a three way tie with your two compatriots. But, part of a win is better than no win, right?

 

[Sarsmi]

They will get them faster just like powergamers will get them faster and advanced character buyers will get them faster. But, that does not stop anyone else from being able to get them. If you think skill gain should be faster so you can get your shinies faster, I am ok with that.

And a powergamer who uses an advanced character token and scripts skill gain will get them fastest of all. So again, cheating trumps non cheating. Legit players will get their shinies, but not as soon as a cheater would, and that's my point.

And yet everything you say comes down to how much money you can or can't make from selling game items or accounts. Gotcha.

I could also give the argument that people who script a new skill that is a boon while pvping have the potential to decimate their opponents. There, an example that doesn't involve money. I double win the argument!

 

[Stratic Fanatic]

So, why is the sky blue?

Yes, It answers everything....but the question!

 

[T'Challa]

BTW I'm like the last person to go to events or scenarios that involve a bunch of gimme gimme players.

I lol'ed. You forget that Delly figured you out Sarsmi!

 

[Sarsmi]

BTW I'm like the last person to go to events or scenarios that involve a bunch of gimme gimme players.

I lol'ed. You forget that Delly figured you out Sarsmi!

Second to last then?

That was a while ago! And it's not like I went for the items.

 

[T'Challa]

Every time I see that char running around I think of foofoo drinks and poolwater...

 

[popps]

However there are times in which we will allow this. If your home is set up to be a stable, or you are showing off various animals of Britannia and these animals are not being used to gain skill, attack other players (in Trammel), or provide any unfair advantage to you or others then it is ok to leave your pets/animals in your home. However, please be aware that a Game Master may remove any wild pets if those pets are found providing an unfair advantage to other players or are causing an issue with the game in that area. These decisions are made on a case by case basis and players should follow the decision made at the time.

Question.

If a player has a tamer who is taming animals to sell but the stablles are full of the tamer's animals which are for personal use (i.e. hunting), can this player temporarily keep the animals for sale in the player's home until they sell ?

Since some animals do are aggressive and the player may have other characters, perhaps weak ones as crafters or similar, does the player have a right to keep these animals confined in an area of the house where they would not kill other characters when they log in like for crafting or similar ?

Also, since tamers are limited by 5 pets' slots max, if a tamer is selling, say, Giant Beetles, or Cu-Sidhes or Nightmares or whatever, it is not possible to keep 5-6 animals all tamed.

Especially for tamed animals for sale that come in different colors, it is a very good business practise to have a few of them of various colors so that if a customer comes looking for some color one has more chances to make the sale. If the tamer has only 1 color available, and this color does not match the customer's desire, the tamer loses the sale opportunity. Having instead 5-6 different colors always at hand raises the chances to have the right color ready for when a customer asks.

Therefore, untill they sell, the tamer may need to have a number of pets of different colors released in the home, perhaps restricted in an area where they cannot harm other, weaker characters, and then sell them one by one until they are all gone.

I would hope this is ok as it is in line with the game as for playing the role of a tamer, right?

 

[weins201]

Having wild animals in your house is not illegal weather they can get out or not ... What makes the house design illegal is ...

Pens setup in the house where the wilds can be contained and used for training PERIOD it is that simple. Weather or not u used them for training is irrevelent.

Now there is also the issues with wild pets that can kill other characters .... It is illegal to release pets in a location were they could potentially kill another player Tram, Fel, Tokuno, Dungeons, it doesnt matter. If another player could die due to the fact that YOU released pets then the TAMER has the potential to have actions taken.

I have spoken with GM on both issues as i have had both these problems.

I released a Bunch old Dragons a while back in the center area of my castle and some idiot ran in and died LoL.

Also more recently in a customhome i was holding MANY CUs i was taming trying to get good ones and selling of the others letting the buyers choose.

Both time i ended up in jail and spoke directly with a GM before being freed.

This has also been brought up many time before and NO ONE on stratics can use the excuse I didnt know.

 

[Connor_Graham]

The burden of proof is on you. But, since you can't do that, I think the judge says case dismissed.

Ah, but then that judge has never met ME.

All you had to do was come up with ONE way that 'scripting skill gain' impacts other people.

I'll take a stab at this, then wait for you to quote every other word.

I worked every skill on every character I have by myself, without the help of any scripts. It's taken several years to build all of the characters, then obtain the gold and high end equipment it takes to compete in the high end aspect of UO.

Another person just started playing yesterday. They paid a certain site RL $$ to work their skills up on all of their characters, all of which is done in 3 days as the site says, which is obviously scripted. That person also then pays RL $$ for high end artifacts and runics, of which those runics are also obviously scripted. They've now got the equivalent of what it took me to obtain over several years within a matter of a couple of days. They are now direct competition in the same area of the game that normally would have taken them several years to reach.

Any events or new introductions to the game now have an additional person competing for the "prize" that wouldn't have been, thus cutting down my own personal intake of said "prize". This is all due to the fact that this person used scripting to reach a level that he shouldn't have been at in the amount of time it took.


Another example-

Val hammers used to sell for 50 mil. Scripters came along and through bod running scripts obtained all of the bods needed for a val hammer. They then used another illegal operation and duped the completed bod, thus saturating the market with val hammers and reducing the price of them from 50 mil to 15 mil. The val hammer bod that I have has lost 35 mil of it's normal value due to the scripter running the script non stop.


Another example-

Heartwood runics. Nuf said.



Need any more?

 

[Sarsmi]

Every time I see that char running around I think of foofoo drinks and poolwater...

.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Question.

If a player has a tamer who is taming animals to sell but the stablles are full of the tamer's animals which are for personal use (i.e. hunting), can this player temporarily keep the animals for sale in the player's home until they sell ?
Therefore, untill they sell, the tamer may need to have a number of pets of different colors released in the home, perhaps restricted in an area where they cannot harm other, weaker characters, and then sell them one by one until they are all gone.

I would hope this is ok as it is in line with the game as for playing the role of a tamer, right?

No, this would be considered to be illegal. Skill training isn't the only reason keeping wild animals penned can result in a ban.

 

[popps]

I have spoken with GM on both issues as i have had both these problems.

I released a Bunch old Dragons a while back in the center area of my castle and some idiot ran in and died LoL.

Also more recently in a customhome i was holding MANY CUs i was taming trying to get good ones and selling of the others letting the buyers choose.

Both time i ended up in jail and spoke directly with a GM before being freed.

You were released because you did nothing wrong meaning, it is ok to keep beasts in the house for selling purposes ?

 

[popps]

Question.

If a player has a tamer who is taming animals to sell but the stablles are full of the tamer's animals which are for personal use (i.e. hunting), can this player temporarily keep the animals for sale in the player's home until they sell ?
Therefore, untill they sell, the tamer may need to have a number of pets of different colors released in the home, perhaps restricted in an area where they cannot harm other, weaker characters, and then sell them one by one until they are all gone.

I would hope this is ok as it is in line with the game as for playing the role of a tamer, right?

No, this would be considered to be illegal. Skill training isn't the only reason keeping wild animals penned can result in a ban.

That surprises me a whole lot and I find it very, very unfair towards Tamers trying to simply play their character role, that of taming beasts and selling them.

It is already quite difficult to find customers looking for pets given the reduced number of players in today's UO, and not being able to promptly and readily be able to provide to customers the color pets they are looking for, can mean losing the customer and the business and, therefore, make the role of playing a tamer less fun.

If there were tons of people looking to buy pets it would not be a problem but in today's game, where customers are scarce, well, having a wider variety of pets' colors means making the difference between making a sale or losing a sale.

I would be VERY surprised to learn that the Developers do not want tamers to play their characters role and do their best to sell their tames.......

If there is a problem with scripting well, this is NOT tamers fault, IMHO.

Instead of hurting players who play a tamer and simply want to raise their options to make their sales then the game owners should look at ways that DIRECTLY address scripting without penalizing other players.

That's at least how I see it.

 

[Petra Fyde]

This rule has been in game as long as I've played. It's not some new thing introduced to combat recent scripting.

 

[Thangorodrim]

That surprises me a whole lot and I find it very, very unfair towards Tamers trying to simply play their character role, that of taming beasts and selling them.

It is already quite difficult to find customers looking for pets given the reduced number of players in today's UO, and not being able to promptly and readily be able to provide to customers the color pets they are looking for, can mean losing the customer and the business and, therefore, make the role of playing a tamer less fun.

If there were tons of people looking to buy pets it would not be a problem but in today's game, where customers are scarce, well, having a wider variety of pets' colors means making the difference between making a sale or losing a sale.

I would be VERY surprised to learn that the Developers do not want tamers to play their characters role and do their best to sell their tames.......

If there is a problem with scripting well, this is NOT tamers fault, IMHO.

Instead of hurting players who play a tamer and simply want to raise their options to make their sales then the game owners should look at ways that DIRECTLY address scripting without penalizing other players.

That's at least how I see it.

It has nothing to do with scripting.

Tamers will have to run their business within the rules of the game - like everyone else - or face the consequences.

 

[popps]

This rule has been in game as long as I've played. It's not some new thing introduced to combat recent scripting.

Well, regardless, tamers who sell their pets know well (I imagine), how important it is to have various colors of various stats/skills of a given pet ready at any times because one has no idea what will be the color or the stats/skills combination that a buyer will want and if the tamer does not have that one specific color or stas/skills combination ready to go at the moment a buyers asks for it, at perhaps Luna Bank, the sale and the business is lost.
Most often not having the requested pet ready to go means having a customer looking for (and getting) it elsewhere. The sale either happens right away, in a few monutes or often the opportunity is lost for good for the tamer.

If there are problems in the game, IMHO, it would be much better to specifically address them and not instead penalize players who have nothing to do with those problems and yet, get hurt and quite drastically in being able to fully play their roleplaying role.

Tamers should never be forbidden the ability to have in their homes the pets they need to have a large pool of pets of various colors and various stats/skills combinations from which to readily pick the one that is of interest to the buyer of the moment and so as to secure a sale which, otherwise, would get lost, thus hurting the fully playability of their tamers' roleplaying role.

 

[popps]

It has nothing to do with scripting.

Tamers will have to run their business within the rules of the game - like everyone else - or face the consequences.

But the game is not static, it CHANGES, and, therefore, to accomodate players, so should rules, IMHO.

How it changes ?

If there is less players around, there is less perspective buyers of pets from tamers.

Meaning, that if a tamer is not able, because of existing rules, to have a large pool of pets of various colors and stats/skills combinations, chances are that the tamer will not be able to sell much to perspective buyers. And this means not being able to fully play the role that one has chosen and therefore, hurt the fun when playing the game.

Customers usually want to get done fast. They come and look for that given color or stats/skill combination pet and want to find it fast.

For a tamer wanting to do good business it means having to have such a large pool to pick from. That's why having a number of them in the house can be so important for a tamer.

If the game was full of players and, therefore, of perspective buyers and customers of a tamer, well, then losing a deal would not be a problem. For one deal gone another would be around the corner to show up shortly.

But the game has changed and quite some.

There is less players around now and so less deals for a tamer. Not losing the much fewer deals still existing is very important.

That's why a changed game should also consider changed policies, IMHO..........

Tamers have the right to play their role also with a reduced player base and I do not think that penalizing them is right for faults which are not theirs.

If there are other problems in the game well, address THOSE problems, specifically, rather than making policies which can hurt some playing roles which have nothing to do with them.

That's at least how I see it.

 

[Thangorodrim]

But the game is not static, it CHANGES, and, therefore, to accomodate players, so should rules, IMHO.

How it changes ?

If there is less players around, there is less perspective buyers of pets from tamers.

Meaning, that if a tamer is not able, because of existing rules, to have a large pool of pets of various colors and stats/skills combinations, chances are that the tamer will not be able to sell much to perspective buyers. And this means not being able to fully play the role that one has chosen and therefore, hurt the fun when playing the game.

Customers usually want to get done fast. They come and look for that given color or stats/skill combination pet and want to find it fast.

For a tamer wanting to do good business it means having to have such a large pool to pick from. That's why having a number of them in the house can be so important for a tamer.

If the game was full of players and, therefore, of perspective buyers and customers of a tamer, well, then losing a deal would not be a problem. For one deal gone another would be around the corner to show up shortly.

But the game has changed and quite some.

There is less players around now and so less deals for a tamer. Not losing the much fewer deals still existing is very important.

That's why a changed game should also consider changed policies, IMHO..........

Tamers have the right to play their role also with a reduced player base and I do not think that penalizing them is right for faults which are not theirs.

If there are other problems in the game well, address THOSE problems, specifically, rather than making policies which can hurt some playing roles which have nothing to do with them.

That's at least how I see it.

Tortured logic.

So, there are less players and therefore all the rules need to be rewritten?

So, all crafters should get an extra two thousand lockdowns since they have to hold additional working inventory?

Is there even a market for tames with the advent of pet bonding?

Houses were never supposed to function as an ancillary stable, period, end of story.

 

[D'Amavir]

And a powergamer who uses an advanced character token and scripts skill gain will get them fastest of all. So again, cheating trumps non cheating. Legit players will get their shinies, but not as soon as a cheater would, and that's my point.

Which is actually my point. The 'legit' players will get their shiniest. In the same amount of time that they would have gotten them if 'script skill gain' didn't exist. There play is not impacted at all. "I will be able to get what I want in the exact same amount of time regardless of when other people happen to get it."

I could also give the argument that people who script a new skill that is a boon while pvping have the potential to decimate their opponents. There, an example that doesn't involve money. I double win the argument!

You double lose, as usual. A person training a new skill will of course lose to someone that has full skill. How they got that skill is irrelevant. If you are out running around trying to pvp without your skills being maxed, anyone you face that has higher skills (be they 'legit' or scripted) has a better chance of winning. So, again, you just tell me how someone having skill benefits. Not anything specific to this discussion.

 

[D'Amavir]

I worked every skill on every character I have by myself, without the help of any scripts. It's taken several years to build all of the characters, then obtain the gold and high end equipment it takes to compete in the high end aspect of UO.

Another person just started playing yesterday. They paid a certain site RL $$ to work their skills up on all of their characters, all of which is done in 3 days as the site says, which is obviously scripted. That person also then pays RL $$ for high end artifacts and runics, of which those runics are also obviously scripted. They've now got the equivalent of what it took me to obtain over several years within a matter of a couple of days. They are now direct competition in the same area of the game that normally would have taken them several years to reach.

I started playing in 97. Back then, training resist to GM was a monster to do. It took a really long time. Now, its really easy to 120 it. Do I whine because 'new' players are able to get it faster than I got it back then? No. Why? Because what skill they have doesn't impact me. I am happy they are able to enjoy the game sooner which makes it more likely they will stick around.

Any events or new introductions to the game now have an additional person competing for the "prize" that wouldn't have been, thus cutting down my own personal intake of said "prize". This is all due to the fact that this person used scripting to reach a level that he shouldn't have been at in the amount of time it took.

Another person that doesn't want competition. Nice. Sounds like more gimme gimmes. But ya, people that use the legal advanced characters will also be able to have a chance for your shinies. I agree. You should make a thread every day like anti competition people do and complain about that.

Another example-

Val hammers used to sell for 50 mil. Scripters came along and through bod running scripts obtained all of the bods needed for a val hammer. They then used another illegal operation and duped the completed bod, thus saturating the market with val hammers and reducing the price of them from 50 mil to 15 mil. The val hammer bod that I have has lost 35 mil of it's normal value due to the scripter running the script non stop.

Skill scripting. Skill....scripting. Not quest scripting. Not duping. Skill scripting. "Why is the sky blue?"

"The reason the sky is blue is to get to the other side of the road, duh!"

Another example-

Heartwood runics. Nuf said.

Another reminder, not quest scripting.

Need any more?

Just one. One. About SKILL SCRIPTING. But, you can keep telling me how you hate advanced characters instead. Or how you hate quest scripting.

I know this has been explained for hours here, but one more time.

The question was "How does skill scripting impact others?"

It was also explained that the question means "How does skill scripting (illegal) impact others in ways that powergaming (legal), advanced characters (legal) and buying accounts (legal) doesn't? Why are three of those "massively impacting" (according to the naysayers here) legal and accepted while the fourth isn't?"

I know people don't want competition for their shinies. I get it. But 'they get gimme gimmes faster than I get gimme gimmes' complaint isn't script skill gain specific. What I am looking for, is how that ONE aspect is deemed 'illegal' while the other things that do the exact same thing aren't.

 

[D'Amavir]

Tortured logic.

So, there are less players and therefore all the rules need to be rewritten?

No. UO losing players should in no way cause EA to make any changes. None.

So, all crafters should get an extra two thousand lockdowns since they have to hold additional working inventory?

How many lockdowns does your bank have these days? Same as day one in UO's history?

Is there even a market for tames with the advent of pet bonding?

Houses were never supposed to function as an ancillary stable, period, end of story.

How many stable slots does a tamer have these days compared to day one in UO's history?

The point is that many rules HAVE changed based on how the game has changed. Its not the same UO as it was in the beginning.

 

[Sarsmi]

And a powergamer who uses an advanced character token and scripts skill gain will get them fastest of all. So again, cheating trumps non cheating. Legit players will get their shinies, but not as soon as a cheater would, and that's my point.

Which is actually my point. The 'legit' players will get their shiniest. In the same amount of time that they would have gotten them if 'script skill gain' didn't exist. There play is not impacted at all. "I will be able to get what I want in the exact same amount of time regardless of when other people happen to get it."

I could also give the argument that people who script a new skill that is a boon while pvping have the potential to decimate their opponents. There, an example that doesn't involve money. I double win the argument!

You double lose, as usual. A person training a new skill will of course lose to someone that has full skill. How they got that skill is irrelevant. If you are out running around trying to pvp without your skills being maxed, anyone you face that has higher skills (be they 'legit' or scripted) has a better chance of winning. So, again, you just tell me how someone having skill benefits. Not anything specific to this discussion.

Haha, you just can't admit I'm right. Sure someone will get their shinies eventually, that is pretty obvious and not really worthy of being a "point". But they will get them after the skill scripters have cashed in and flooded the market with new items, and if they were to try to sell them they would get less for them.

And yes, of course if you are in a pvp guild and your buddies are going out to work a harry its much better for you to get out there with them with incomplete skills than stay in and train. So when they introduce a new skill and the skill scripters work it up to max faster than legit players, they will reap the benefits.

I'm giving myself an extra broccoli for being so patient with you and explaining in such great detail!

 

[popps]

Tortured logic.

So, there are less players and therefore all the rules need to be rewritten?

Not all but some of them possibly yes, if the need arises......

So, all crafters should get an extra two thousand lockdowns since they have to hold additional working inventory?

Quite a different issue, I think. While crafters can already count on a whole lot of lock downs and storage capacity for their wares, tamers all which can count on is 14 slots in stables TOP. And they are definately not enough for tamers who want to play a tamer and sell their tames on the market.

Is there even a market for tames with the advent of pet bonding?

Yes, there is, because many want to have a pet for a lot of reasons like prestige, hunting and all that but do not want to go through the hassle and time consuming task of finding "that" particular color or stats/skills combination pet and so forth.
Sure, with less players around there is less perspective buyers around and they are more demanding (meaning they want a specific pet, often), but there still happen to be players asking for particular pets at Luna Bank from time to time, for example...

Houses were never supposed to function as an ancillary stable, period, end of story.

Houses are containers for players to use, that's what they are for.

Players can use them to store armor, weapons, rune books, vendors or anything else they may see important to keep in THEIR house.

So, ALSO tamers should be allowed to have their pets which help their business and help them play the role playing role they chose for the game, in THEIR house.

I do not see why tamers should be limited in their fun and to play their role for problems with the game which is not their responsibility to fix nor their business.

Address problems in other ways if there are any, NOT penalizing some players in playing the role they choose to play the game they pay their monthly subscription for.

That's at least my point of view on it.

 

[D'Amavir]

Haha, you just can't admit I'm right. Sure someone will get their shinies eventually, that is pretty obvious and not really worthy of being a "point". But they will get them after the skill scripters have cashed in and flooded the market with new items, and if they were to try to sell them they would get less for them.

And yes, of course if you are in a pvp guild and your buddies are going out to work a harry its much better for you to get out there with them with incomplete skills than stay in and train. So when they introduce a new skill and the skill scripters work it up to max faster than legit players, they will reap the benefits.

I'm giving myself an extra broccoli for being so patient with you and explaining in such great detail!

You should read the actual question that I reposted just now. You haven't answered it even though I know I have explained it to you several times. Keep trying though.

 

[Thangorodrim]

No. UO losing players should in no way cause EA to make any changes. None.



How many lockdowns does your bank have these days? Same as day one in UO's history?



How many stable slots does a tamer have these days compared to day one in UO's history?

The point is that many rules HAVE changed based on how the game has changed. Its not the same UO as it was in the beginning.

Your point is obscure. The discussion was never about EA changing the game to attract / retain players. Stable slots and tamers breaking the rules with illegal houses are not going to have any meaningful impact on player retention or acquisition.

What are you proposing here anyway?

Houses should now be treated as stables because tamers are bereft of sufficient stable slots for their basic needs?

Really? All because the playerbase is smaller? So, less players = legal to use houses as stables? Really?

So, for example, the OP should be able to create a stable to house 15 Cu Sidhe because of a smaller playerbase?

 

[Old Man of UO]

Well, regardless, tamers who sell their pets know well (I imagine), how important it is to have various colors of various stats/skills of a given pet ready at any times because one has no idea what will be the color or the stats/skills combination that a buyer will want and if the tamer does not have that one specific color or stas/skills combination ready to go at the moment a buyers asks for it, at perhaps Luna Bank, the sale and the business is lost....

I've been taming and selling pets for a long time. It doesn't take a bright tamer very long to figure out that customers only want a couple colors of pets, and they all want MAX stats, not any particular combination of stats. I keep three colors of cu sidhe in my stable, train them and sell them as they are trained. I also have customers occasionally request special colors of lesser hiryu or cu sidhe, but they always waited for one to spawn... I've never had an issue with that.

I would LIKE more stable slots, but I MANAGE quite well with the ones that I have. If I have a pet that I can't sell, I dump it or give it away, always leaving on slot open for that special pet. I even tamed a blaze cu sidhe when I didn't have any stable spots open, but managed to do a swap with friends.

There really is no great need to use a house to store tames... if you manage your stables well.

 

[Thangorodrim]

......

Popps, if you want to run a business selling pets then you have to allocate less stable space to your personal stash. Its not that much of a hardship.

What is so complicated about this?

 

[D'Amavir]

Your point is obscure. The discussion was never about EA changing the game to attract / retain players. Stable slots and tamers breaking the rules with illegal houses are not going to have any meaningful impact on player retention or acquisition.

What are you proposing here anyway?

Houses should now be treated as stables because tamers are bereft of sufficient stable slots for their basic needs?

Tamers have asked to be allowed to keep 'house pets' for years. Right now, if a tamer drops a 'guard dog' in their house and leaves it they can be banned. I don't play a tamer so its really not a factor for me. But, it has been on the tamer wish list for a long time.

Really? All because the playerbase is smaller? So, less players = legal to use houses as stables? Really?

Really. Does that mean that players should be able to house 100 cu's in their crib? No, of course not. But being banned for leaving a cow in your house? Really?

So, for example, the OP should be able to create a stable to house 15 Cu Sidhe because of a smaller playerbase?

You keep falling back on the 'smaller playerbase' thing but you don't understand what it means. Should a developer not try to make changes to make their playerbase happy? Does that mean EVERY change players ask for should be added? No, of course not. But, simple common sense says the developers should be thinking "We have a smaller playerbase. What changes can we make to improve that?"

 

[Thangorodrim]

Tamers have asked to be allowed to keep 'house pets' for years. Right now, if a tamer drops a 'guard dog' in their house and leaves it they can be banned. I don't play a tamer so its really not a factor for me. But, it has been on the tamer wish list for a long time.



Really. Does that mean that players should be able to house 100 cu's in their crib? No, of course not. But being banned for leaving a cow in your house? Really?



You keep falling back on the 'smaller playerbase' thing but you don't understand what it means. Should a developer not try to make changes to make their playerbase happy? Does that mean EVERY change players ask for should be added? No, of course not. But, simple common sense says the developers should be thinking "We have a smaller playerbase. What changes can we make to improve that?"

Show me examples of these innocent tamers banned for a stray dog or cow in their house. The OP, reportedly, was running a 15 Cu stable for skill gain. Let's not get too far off track with the pettifogging.

Incidentally, I think I understand a smaller playerbase and growing the playerbase is not going to be achieved by catering to the whims of a few tamers.

What will grow the playerbase is a properly implemented client, content, and marketing.

 

[D'Amavir]

Show me examples of these innocent tamers banned for a stray dog or cow in their house. The OP, reportedly, was running a 15 Cu stable for skill gain. Let's not get too far off track with the pettifogging.

I was responding to your comments implying that no changes should be made in a smaller playerbase world of UO. And no, the original poster said they weren't using the pets for skill gain. If that is true or not, I don't know. But that is what the original poster said.

Incidentally, I think I understand a smaller playerbase and growing the playerbase is not going to be achieved by catering to the whims of a few tamers.

Of course. No one is saying that ONLY tamer changes should be made to help improve the playerbase. You implied that no changes should be. That was the point.

What will grow the playerbase is a properly implemented client, content, and marketing.

Agreed. But since we can't any of those things, maybe some rule changes to grow the playerbase might help. Or not.

 

[Tina Small]

I've been taming and selling pets for a long time. It doesn't take a bright tamer very long to figure out that customers only want a couple colors of pets, and they all want MAX stats, not any particular combination of stats. I keep three colors of cu sidhe in my stable, train them and sell them as they are trained. I also have customers occasionally request special colors of lesser hiryu or cu sidhe, but they always waited for one to spawn... I've never had an issue with that.

I would LIKE more stable slots, but I MANAGE quite well with the ones that I have. If I have a pet that I can't sell, I dump it or give it away, always leaving on slot open for that special pet. I even tamed a blaze cu sidhe when I didn't have any stable spots open, but managed to do a swap with friends.

There really is no great need to use a house to store tames... if you manage your stables well.

Agreed 100%. Another option is to use another account to make another tamer character and have UO installed on two computers so you can trade pets between the two tamers without anyone else to help you. Of course, then you end up with more tamers to train, but that's another issue entirely.

 

[Sarsmi]

Haha, you just can't admit I'm right. Sure someone will get their shinies eventually, that is pretty obvious and not really worthy of being a "point". But they will get them after the skill scripters have cashed in and flooded the market with new items, and if they were to try to sell them they would get less for them.

And yes, of course if you are in a pvp guild and your buddies are going out to work a harry its much better for you to get out there with them with incomplete skills than stay in and train. So when they introduce a new skill and the skill scripters work it up to max faster than legit players, they will reap the benefits.

I'm giving myself an extra broccoli for being so patient with you and explaining in such great detail!

You should read the actual question that I reposted just now. You haven't answered it even though I know I have explained it to you several times. Keep trying though.

I rechecked your last post to me and you didn't ask me a question. What is this mythical question I am avoiding?

 

[D'Amavir]

I rechecked your last post to me and you didn't ask me a question. What is this mythical question I am avoiding?

I know this has been explained for hours here, but one more time.

The question was "How does skill scripting impact others?"

It was also explained that the question means "How does skill scripting (illegal) impact others in ways that powergaming (legal), advanced characters (legal) and buying accounts (legal) doesn't? Why are three of those "massively impacting" (according to the naysayers here) legal and accepted while the fourth isn't?"

I know people don't want competition for their shinies. I get it. But 'they get gimme gimmes faster than I get gimme gimmes' complaint isn't script skill gain specific. What I am looking for, is how that ONE aspect is deemed 'illegal' while the other things that do the exact same thing aren't.

Not sure how 'mythical' it was but its pretty clear on the post that I referred you to. Which just goes to show how little you are actually reading. Maybe if you spent more time reading and less making petty insults and shouting how you 'win' you would understand a little better.

 

[Sarsmi]

I rechecked your last post to me and you didn't ask me a question. What is this mythical question I am avoiding?

I know this has been explained for hours here, but one more time.

The question was "How does skill scripting impact others?"

It was also explained that the question means "How does skill scripting (illegal) impact others in ways that powergaming (legal), advanced characters (legal) and buying accounts (legal) doesn't? Why are three of those "massively impacting" (according to the naysayers here) legal and accepted while the fourth isn't?"

I know people don't want competition for their shinies. I get it. But 'they get gimme gimmes faster than I get gimme gimmes' complaint isn't script skill gain specific. What I am looking for, is how that ONE aspect is deemed 'illegal' while the other things that do the exact same thing aren't.

Not sure how 'mythical' it was but its pretty clear on the post that I referred you to. Which just goes to show how little you are actually reading. Maybe if you spent more time reading and less making petty insults and shouting how you 'win' you would understand a little better.

I explained that. And I guess one of my responses eluded you so I'll retype it out for ya. You can use an advanced character token, powergame, and skill script, and this is the fastest way to build a character and it will be faster than if you are legitimately playing. Got it now?

BTW powergaming and advanced character tokens don't do "the exact same thing" and you may want to remove that part of your argument before trying to replay it for the 10th time.

Oh and also:

Why are three of those "massively impacting" (according to the naysayers here) legal and accepted while the fourth isn't?"

Uh...because the devs deem that scripting is illegal? I think you're losing the thread of your argument.

I have shown quite a few ways that skill scripting affects other players but I can add even more if you like:

1. scripting skill will allow players in fel to swap out templates quickly. And before you invoke the soulstone comeback, remember that soulstone tokens aren't cheap and it's expensive to have a dozen or so stones for the skills you might need. It's an advantage to be able to change your template up quickly to stay current with nerfs etc.

2. scripting skill lets those banned scripters who script mine get back in the game right away to devalue the work of honest harvesters.

3. scripting skill is a time saver, and this is a competitive game whether or not that is how you personally play it - when you save time you get an advantage over others who have to spend that time grinding skills.

4. if someone skill scripts they become familiar with the scripting tools and become comfortable using them. Once they realize that they are safe from getting in trouble this can easily lead them down the path of using scripts for other things. I'll just laugh at you if you say this has never happened, not even once.

5. When someone scripts their skill they are adding to the hordes of cheating players that help give this game a bad name, and the perception that this game is rife with cheaters definitely hurts it.

6. They also incite disgust in honest players who work hard on their skills. You can pooh pooh me all you want on this, but I'm proud of the skills I've worked up, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets disgusted with cheaters. Being disgusted impacts my gameplay, and no amount of you telling me to just play the game changes that fact (a fact that completely proves that skill gain cheating impacts other people's game play.)

7. I have spent a lot of time on this thread already, and if skill gain scripting did not exist I would not have spent near as much time on it. This is time that I could have been playing UO, but did not. Therefore, skill gain scripting indirectly has affected my gameplay.

Ok that last one is a joke, but I think it's not a bad argument really.

 

[D'Amavir]

I explained that. And I guess one of my responses eluded you so I'll retype it out for ya. You can use an advanced character token, powergame, and skill script, and this is the fastest way to build a character and it will be faster than if you are legitimately playing. Got it now?

BTW powergaming and advanced character tokens don't do "the exact same thing" and you may want to remove that part of your argument before trying to replay it for the 10th time.

Oh and also:

Your complaint was that people that scripted skill were able to get to things before those that didn't. Correct me if I am wrong, but buying an advanced character allows people to get to things before those that don't. And powergaming allows people to get to things. before those that don't. The difference is?

Uh...because the devs deem that scripting is illegal? I think you're losing the thread of your argument.

The devs deemed it illegal because the devs deemed it illegal? Wow, I really am losing with logic like that. "Why did the devs make this illegal?" "Because they devs said it was illegal". Got it.

I have shown quite a few ways that skill scripting affects other players but I can add even more if you like:

1. scripting skill will allow players in fel to swap out templates quickly. And before you invoke the soulstone comeback, remember that soulstone tokens aren't cheap and it's expensive to have a dozen or so stones for the skills you might need. It's an advantage to be able to change your template up quickly to stay current with nerfs etc.

Yes, soulstones allow you to do the exact same thing. And you can swap out templates even FASTER using them vs scripting skills. So, another point in my favor. Again, the question is "How does scripting skills impact others in ways that a ton of other things that are legal don't?".

2. scripting skill lets those banned scripters who script mine get back in the game right away to devalue the work of honest harvesters.

As do advanced characters and powergamers. Another in my favor there. Once again, the question is "How does scripting skills impact others in ways that a ton of other things that are legal don't?"."

3. scripting skill is a time saver, and this is a competitive game whether or not that is how you personally play it - when you save time you get an advantage over others who have to spend that time grinding skills.

Advanced characters AND soulstones are time savers as well. Yet another in my favor. And again, the question is "How does scripting skills impact others in ways that a ton of other things that are legal don't?"."

4. if someone skill scripts they become familiar with the scripting tools and become comfortable using them. Once they realize that they are safe from getting in trouble this can easily lead them down the path of using scripts for other things. I'll just laugh at you if you say this has never happened, not even once.

And I will laugh at you when you say that soulstones haven't tempted people to dupe those stones for their benefit. As have runic hammers, runic kits, checks, rares and just about anything else of value in the game.

5. When someone scripts their skill they are adding to the hordes of cheating players that help give this game a bad name, and the perception that this game is rife with cheaters definitely hurts it.

Exactly. If EA stopped calling this act that impacts no one 'cheating', that 'stigma' is gone. Another in my favor.

6. They also incite disgust in honest players who work hard on their skills. You can pooh pooh me all you want on this, but I'm proud of the skills I've worked up, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets disgusted with cheaters. Being disgusted impacts my gameplay, and no amount of you telling me to just play the game changes that fact (a fact that completely proves that skill gain cheating impacts other people's game play.)

And again, if EA just came out and changed the label to match all the other legal things that do the exact same thing, that disgust would instantly disappear. Yet another in my favor.

7. I have spent a lot of time on this thread already, and if skill gain scripting did not exist I would not have spent near as much time on it. This is time that I could have been playing UO, but did not. Therefore, skill gain scripting indirectly has affected my gameplay.

If EA changed the label there would be less threads started by people like you whining about how those 'cheaters' give you nightmares every night. Then again, you probably have nightmares about advanced characters too. So it might not help people like you.

Ok that last one is a joke, but I think it's not a bad argument really.

Of course its a great argument, in my favor. Thank you for all the support in making the label changed to something fitting those things that do the exact same thing.

 

[Thangorodrim]

I was responding to your comments implying that no changes should be made in a smaller playerbase world of UO.

I see. I made the comment only in the context of the justification by popps of using a house as stables because the tamer business is crunched by reduced buyers. Or whatever the hell he was saying.

Anyway, too starved an argument for my sword at this point.

 

[Connor_Graham]

I started playing in 97. Back then, training resist to GM was a monster to do. It took a really long time. Now, its really easy to 120 it. Do I whine because 'new' players are able to get it faster than I got it back then? No. Why? Because what skill they have doesn't impact me.

What does this have to do with a perfectly good example?

I am happy they are able to enjoy the game sooner which makes it more likely they will stick around.

They weren't around when they scripted the skill to begin with. What makes you think they're going to be around when they're scripting other things?

Another person that doesn't want competition. Nice. Sounds like more gimme gimmes. But ya, people that use the legal advanced characters will also be able to have a chance for your shinies. I agree. You should make a thread every day like anti competition people do and complain about that.

I don't have anything against fair and legal competition. I do have something against people that cheat in that competition.

Skill scripting. Skill....scripting. Not quest scripting. Not duping. Skill scripting. "Why is the sky blue?"

Wow, you really need it spelled out for you? Ok...

Scripter scripts the mining skill. Scripter illegally obtains raw materials needed to script Smithing skill. Scripter then scripts bod running, which then leads to duping val hammer bods, thus artifcially devaluing the market for those that sat in front of their computer and did all of that manually, and in a time frame not possible for a normal player, and it all started with scripting the mining skill.

The reason the sky is blue is to get to the other side of the road, duh!

Dude.......are you on drugs?

Seriously.

Another reminder, not quest scripting.

You don't honestly believe the quest scripters actually worked up lumberjacking and bowcrafting without scripting do you? If you do that would say that you're as thick as the Great Wall of China.

Just one. One. About SKILL SCRIPTING. But, you can keep telling me how you hate advanced characters instead. Or how you hate quest scripting.

I never said anything about advanced characters, or SoT's, or Alacrity Scrolls, just to head you off before you start bringing those into a discussion about scripting.

I know this has been explained for hours here, but one more time.

The question was "How does skill scripting impact others?"

I answered this. You brought up how difficult it was to raise Resist back in the old days when you had to walk uphill barefoot, in the snow, both ways.

It was also explained that the question means "How does skill scripting (illegal) impact others in ways that powergaming (legal), advanced characters (legal) and buying accounts (legal) doesn't? Why are three of those "massively impacting" (according to the naysayers here) legal and accepted while the fourth isn't?"

Uh, because scripters aren't sitting in front of their computers doing any of the actual gameplay. Because scripters are running scripts 24/7 day after day, which is impossible for any human to do. Because scripters do so with multiple accounts, thus destroying the market for crafters and others because they never have to stop.

I know people don't want competition for their shinies. I get it. But 'they get gimme gimmes faster than I get gimme gimmes' complaint isn't script skill gain specific. What I am looking for, is how that ONE aspect is deemed 'illegal' while the other things that do the exact same thing aren't.

There is nothing that can duplicate a computer running the game while there is no one sitting in front of it pushing the buttons. Not any kind of token, scroll, or anything else.

That's ok though. We all know that you'll come back with some weak ass excuse why perfectly good reasons don't answer your stupid question. We also all know that you know scripters well enough to know how they're paying for their accounts and all that. We know that because you've already told us you did. As I said in that thread, we all know what side of the fence you're standing on. I bet the grass is green as hell on that side, what with all the BS that's being tossed around.

 

[D'Amavir]

What does this have to do with a perfectly good example?

The same thing that people buying runics did I imagine. Nothing at all.

They weren't around when they scripted the skill to begin with. What makes you think they're going to be around when they're scripting other things?

Not even sure what this means. Who wasn't around and what other things are they scripting?

I don't have anything against fair and legal competition. I do have something against people that cheat in that competition.

Again, the point is WHY is one thing cheating while another thing that does the exact same thing isn't?

Wow, you really need it spelled out for you? Ok...

Scripter scripts the mining skill. Scripter illegally obtains raw materials needed to script Smithing skill. Scripter then scripts bod running, which then leads to duping val hammer bods, thus artifcially devaluing the market for those that sat in front of their computer and did all of that manually, and in a time frame not possible for a normal player, and it all started with scripting the mining skill.

You are adding a lot of scripting that no one is talking about. Scripter scripts mining. Yes. Then he goes outs and plays the game and gets the exact same things that someone that manually trains mining does. Powergamer powergames mining. Yes. Then he goes out and plays the game and gets the exact same thing that someone that manually trains mining does. One is legal, one is not. Why?

Dude.......are you on drugs?

Seriously.

No more than those people responding to 'Why is script skill gaining illegal while other things that do the same thing aren't?' with "Script skill gaining is illegal because people can dupe runics!" See the point? The answers don't have anything to do with the question. Get it? Thought not.

You don't honestly believe the quest scripters actually worked up lumberjacking and bowcrafting without scripting do you? If you do that would say that you're as thick as the Great Wall of China.

Irrelevant to the discussion. Quest scripting is not the same thing as skill scripting. Are you saying that if scripting for skill gain was completely removed, you would be ok with quest scripters? Since they didn't use scripts to gain their skills its ok?

I never said anything about advanced characters, or SoT's, or Alacrity Scrolls, just to head you off before you start bringing those into a discussion about scripting.

But that IS the discussion. Why are THEY ok with you while the other isn't? Why are THEY legal while the other isn't? They both accomplish the same thing.

I answered this. You brought up how difficult it was to raise Resist back in the old days when you had to walk uphill barefoot, in the snow, both ways.

You didn't answer this. You answered some other question that no one asked. The question, and I have tweaked it as much as possible so certain people can understand it, is "Why is scripting for skill illegal while things like soulstones, SoTs, advanced characters and powergaming aren't?" They all accomplish the same thing.

Uh, because scripters aren't sitting in front of their computers doing any of the actual gameplay. Because scripters are running scripts 24/7 day after day, which is impossible for any human to do. Because scripters do so with multiple accounts, thus destroying the market for crafters and others because they never have to stop.

So its a matter of degrees? I can instantly get an advanced character in about 2 minutes. Much faster than anyone scripting can get to those levels. But that's ok? Powergamers can get to 120 in any skill faster than any casual player can. But that's ok? SoT users can GM any skill in minutes by using SoTs, much faster than any scripter can. But that's ok? See the point yet? No, I know you don't.

There is nothing that can duplicate a computer running the game while there is no one sitting in front of it pushing the buttons. Not any kind of token, scroll, or anything else.

Wanna bet? As I said, I can get an advanced character in minutes. A scripter can't do that. Not even close.

That's ok though. We all know that you'll come back with some weak ass excuse why perfectly good reasons don't answer your stupid question.

There are no stupid questions, only stupid people trying to answer.

We also all know that you know scripters well enough to know how they're paying for their accounts and all that. We know that because you've already told us you did. As I said in that thread, we all know what side of the fence you're standing on. I bet the grass is green as hell on that side, what with all the BS that's being tossed around.

Pretty green yeah. On my side of the fence, there are people with common sense. On yours, not so much. Making up lies really doesn't help you out. Then again, with the company you keep. That may not be true. I am sure the people like you buy into the garbage you try to spread when you can't tell the truth.

But, I appreciate you giving up trying to answer a simple question.

 

[Sarsmi]

Uh...because the devs deem that scripting is illegal? I think you're losing the thread of your argument.

The devs deemed it illegal because the devs deemed it illegal? Wow, I really am losing with logic like that. "Why did the devs make this illegal?" "Because they devs said it was illegal". Got it.

You originally asked "Why are three of those "massively impacting" (according to the naysayers here) legal and accepted while the fourth isn't?", not "why did the devs decide to make scripting illegal?" I'm just calling you on some of your poor argument building skills.

Your complaint was that people that scripted skill were able to get to things before those that didn't. Correct me if I am wrong, but buying an advanced character allows people to get to things before those that don't. And powergaming allows people to get to things. before those that don't. The difference is?

Your argument is very poor here. I see nothing wrong with people using legal methods to advance more quickly than they could have, only illegal methods that everyone will not use. The playing field is not level that way. I have said this before in this thread, please stop making me cover old ground.

Yes, soulstones allow you to do the exact same thing. And you can swap out templates even FASTER using them vs scripting skills. So, another point in my favor. Again, the question is "How does scripting skills impact others in ways that a ton of other things that are legal don't?"

Darn it what did I just say! AGAIN see my point above! Scripting skills is an unfair advantage that not everyone will use, because some people WILL NOT cheat no matter how much people like you try to white wash it. I pointed out that soulstones are not available in bulk to everyone, they are pretty pricey unless you are willing to use up a bunch of vet rewards on them, which means that to go the soulstone route instead of the skill scripting route would be costly. I already *made* this point, which means that I certainly didn't prove any point of yours.

As do advanced characters and powergamers. Another in my favor there. Once again, the question is "How does scripting skills impact others in ways that a ton of other things that are legal don't?"."

Advanced character tokens cost money, but scripting skills is free. So therefore if you want to script skills you will not have to pay extra money. Also, there's no lumberjack adv char token. So bzzt! Try again.

Advanced characters AND soulstones are time savers as well. Yet another in my favor. And again, the question is "How does scripting skills impact others in ways that a ton of other things that are legal don't?"."

And for the fifitieth time, they are also LEGAL. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE. I'm so sorry you don't get it! But there are a million LEGAL time savers in the game, like using the recall spell to get around. I don't have a problem with LEGAL time savers! I have a problem with an ILLEGAL TIME SAVER THAT GIVES CHEATERS AN ADVANTAGE.

Whew! I hope that way it will stick in your brain and you can stop making the same same same dumb argument.

4. if someone skill scripts they become familiar with the scripting tools and become comfortable using them. Once they realize that they are safe from getting in trouble this can easily lead them down the path of using scripts for other things. I'll just laugh at you if you say this has never happened, not even once.

And I will laugh at you when you say that soulstones haven't tempted people to dupe those stones for their benefit. As have runic hammers, runic kits, checks, rares and just about anything else of value in the game.

Lol, people have always been tempted to cheat, but who is more likely to cheat? Someone who is ALREADY FREAKING CHEATING or someone who isn't? Cmon, I know you can come up with the right answer. *puts on the final jeopardy theme song*

And again, if EA just came out and changed the label to match all the other legal things that do the exact same thing, that disgust would instantly disappear. Yet another in my favor.

Uh dude, that is how it works with everything that is illegal ingame. If they legalize it a good portion of the population will jump at the chance to use/get it. It's not like there are heroin dealers in UO, there aren't any morally questionable things going on except game exploits that they will never legalize (like duping), because duping is an exploit of game mechanics and they prefer to fix bugs. The "stigma" or "label" or whatever you want to call it IS important, because it separates people who play legitimately from those who cheat.

Ok one more time:

SKILL SCRIPTING IS AN ILLEGAL ADVANTAGE AND I DO NOT APPROVE THE USE OF IT. I AM FINE WITH ANY TIMESAVERS THAT ARE LEGAL, AND IN FACT USE MANY OF THEM AS TIME MANAGEMENT IS IMPORTANT TO ME.