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D'Amavir
Guest
Until someone shows me a victim, its a victimless crime.
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Illegal house desgn?
- Thread starter Tortfeasor
- Start date
- Watchers 8
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Never scripted even once. And I don't bother trying to "compete" because I know I can't BECAUSE of those that script. GM'ed many skills several times over without scripting or using any sort of attended or unattended "tricks" to do so (IE, doing it how the programmers intended). I just go about my business and yell at the idiots that pop up trying to stir up a sh**storm for no good reason other than to get their jollies, or their own ways. Or the devs doing something I find stupid.
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D'Amavir
Guest
So you are able to play the game in spite of the fact that someone in the game world scripted their skills to 120? Nice. Me too. Glad we can agree that it doesn't force anyone to do it.
Play it yes, but not play all of it, or enjoy all of it.. I find fun in what I can, yes, but I know there's a hell of a lot more out there that would be a blast to do or try, that I simply can't because of the people like you that insist on making the illegal legal.
Of course in the end its all the descision of the devs, and their stance seems to be the same as mine quite consistantly on scripting and cheating.. so... might be better for your health and sanity not to bother trying, hm?
Of course in the end its all the descision of the devs, and their stance seems to be the same as mine quite consistantly on scripting and cheating.. so... might be better for your health and sanity not to bother trying, hm?
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D'Amavir
Guest
What can't you play? Be honest. Tell me one thing you haven't been able to do just because someone else has 120 skill that they got from scripting it. Just one thing. Please. Must I beg? PPPPLLLLLLEEEEEASSSSE.
PvP in any form; I know I can't match up to anyone that can change their template on a whim to match the newest flavor of the month, and if I were to try to catch up on my own, be it by matching them or finding a better way, by the time I got to where I wanted they've most likely switched 2 or 3 times to new things.
Part of that is my fault for not being a very adaptive person I guess, but I have people constantly trying to train me in that field that know I can't make it either because I refuse to cheat. And yes, I have tried, for several long stretches.
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D'Amavir
Guest
But you claim that you get your in game fulfillment from training your skills manually. So you should be enjoying the template changing. And I have never in my 11 years here seen anyone change their templates in the middle of a fight. Are you playing on an illegal free server that allows people to do that? You should try the official servers if so. You can't do that sort of thing here.
So you are back to claiming that you are unable to GM skills in the game manually? I said I could teach you how to do that. You name the skill and I can teach you how to GM it without having to 'resort to cheating' as you claim you are unable to do.
You should know by now when I explain myself I don't go out of my way to put any extra meanings in unless its a joke, so the moment I say " in the middle of a fight" will be the moment I mean that. Same with "being unable to GM skills manually".. i'd love to see where I said those exact words, because if I didn't, I didn't say that. And I do enjoy traning skills manually, but I don't enjoy sticking to "templates".. I train what I feel like if I think it might help.. has always been my way. The problem isn't in the changing templates (I love training skills even now), its in the abscense of any actual achievement from constantly being lapped by the ones that can work up any skill overnight if they want without even being at their computer.
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D'Amavir
Guest
Never had that problem myself. My sense of achievement is how much fun I have in the game anytime I choose to log in. What someone else is doing when it doesn't impact me has no bearing on my fun level. I guess that's what makes me different from most stratics poster. I can have just as much fun at a spawn with 100 people with scripted skills as I can in a spawn with 100 people with manually gained skills. Different strokes I suppose.
Guess so, but again I never said that they have an impact on my fun level or sense of achievement, I said that there is none when working against them in those situations. I find mine in helping my friends, but it's always nice to have even more options for having a good time without knowing some of those options are impassably blocked (comes from thinking several steps ahead all the time, I guess).
It occurs to me that this topic is going off very quickly, and likely won't stay open long at this rate.
Suffice it to say that there are many scripts that make active combat a lot easier, some of which are legal (UOA) and some of which are not. Skill gain scripts could be considered separate to these.
Suffice it to say that there are many scripts that make active combat a lot easier, some of which are legal (UOA) and some of which are not. Skill gain scripts could be considered separate to these.
Want an example of a victim? How about the scripter who cheats themselves out of the satisfaction of playing a game legitimately, and therefore loses interest in the game much more quickly than the player who plays by the rules and respects themselves and others?
Cheaters will say anything to justify cheating. They are small minded and do not see the entirety of the situation. Cheating impacts everyone, including the person who cheats.
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D'Amavir
Guest
You mean playing it your way, right? I have spent 11 years training magery to 100 then 120 on many many many characters. There isn't much satisfaction left in that for me. Maybe you still enjoy it. If so, more power to you. Unlike you, I would never try to take away your enjoyment nor force mine on you.
You haven't shown how it impacts anyone, at all. Much less everyone. You can keep trying though if you want. I have time.
Let me ask you, if EA suddenly came out tomorrow and said that scripting skills was legal, would you change your opinion on it? Be honest.
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D'Amavir
Guest
I agree completely. Actions that do actually have an impact on others is different than those that don't.
Nope, sure wouldn't. Still don't even see UOA that way, really.
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D'Amavir
Guest
So, the label 'legal' or 'illegal' has no bearing on your opinion of it. How is that different from me? The act remains the same regardless of the 'label' placed on it. For you, its not something you care to do. For others, its something they don't mind. For even others, its a daily way of life. The label is not important. The act itself is.
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AesSedai
Guest
- Jumping in after a quick skim here... (use that against me all you like).
That right there is why anything that is against the rules, including what you may consider to be lesser degrees of cheating or even 'acceptable' rule-breaking, is bad for UO (and bad for everyone playing / involved in UO).
Why?
Because this is a multiplayer game and every action made ultimately and inevitably has an impact on everyone else playing the game. Sometimes the impact is more directly noticed & other times the impact is as unnoticable as a dev. having to spend many hours changing the game because of the actions rule-breakers are taking (because they see nothing wrong with breaking the rules as long as they are convinced that it isn't hurting anything... which is so easy to be convinced of when one wants to).
Well maybe the game should change?
Maybe it should but we should petition for changes rather than go all vigilante and consider ourselves above the rules, man. Of course it is often much easier to take the rules into our own hands and decide which ones we, selfishly, feel are worth following... and that is often why people cheat and how they excuse themselves of any guilt for cheating, imo.
K bye.
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D'Amavir
Guest
All that and still nothing on how it actually impacts someone if someone else scripts their skills to the same level as someone that trained theirs manually. Sure, you can toss out things like "Because this is a multiplayer game and every action made ultimately and inevitably has an impact on everyone else playing the game" but without any actual examples, it doesn't mean anything.
One example please. From anyone. Even a dev. I will settle for them giving an example at this point. Just one. I don't mean to sound rude but people always claim this or that has an impact on them when, in actually, it really has nothing to do with them at all.
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Farscape
Guest
Ok I'm over it lets get on with UO life lesson learned
no harm done all scripters still working all scammers still working and speed is not an issue NEXT
no harm done all scripters still working all scammers still working and speed is not an issue NEXT
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D'Amavir
Guest
To quote Flava Flave...ignant.
You can't make the argument that I'm only looking at things from my perspective if you are asking for me to prove how cheating impacts anyone. I gave you an example - say if I were to cheat, I would know that I would be cheating myself out of the experience of having to actually work the skill. So yes I HAVE shown how cheating impacts people.
But you really want another example in this ridiculous argument about how cheating in a game with multiple players is a bad thing? When you cheat for skill gain you are validating it, at least to yourself. If you validate something in a manner you are moving the line from "cheating is wrong" to "cheating is right, in some instances". Once you change where you put the line it becomes something you can easily keep moving.
"Oh well I can speedhack cause everyone who pvps speed hacks!"
"Oh I can xxx cause it's sooo boring otherwise, I've already done it 10000 times."
Are you ever going to sell an account where you have gained skill by cheating? You have just devalued the work of an honest player who was going to sell their account to the person who bought yours but now has to reduce the price they would sell it at.
Are you going to go out and work a champ spawn with your scripted character? You just took an arty away from someone who gained their skills legitimately.
I could go on and on. There was once honor in doing things the hard, legitimate way. There used to be a certain amount of respect for people who had GM'd taming (or any tough skill), placed a castle, had a lord or lady title, etc. People who have scripted their skills have taken away the respect that someone deserves for the hard work of getting to 120 by dilluting the numbers. The few have become many.
Another example would be it could take 6 months for someone to get 120 magery or 1 week. Non-cheater versus cheater. The 6 months that the non-cheater is working magery, they are not out using their skills to flood even more gold and items into a bad economy. The more people who cheat, the higher and faster inflation rises. Or do you have an argument to explain why inflation is a good thing?
Lol, be honest. Do think think I am scared to say I would script if it was made legal? I would probably be one of the first person's who has never scripted to embrace scripting if it became legal, because then it would be LEGAL. See the difference? If something is legal then anyone can do it. If it is illegal than only people with a poor moral code who can easily lie to themselves and are weak scummy cheaters can do it.
Just to reiterate the first point I made, when you are making your OWN rules about what cheating is justified and what is not, then you enter a grey area where everyone is able to say what they consider to be cheating. Once you enter this area, your opinion is invalidated because you are using your own criteria and not criteria that fits every situation. It now becomes your opinion on what should be considered harmful and what is not. The only way to avoid this is to stick to the rules of the game you are playing as absolutely as you can.
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D'Amavir
Guest
I said how does it impact OTHER people. You claim that it would impact YOU if YOU did it. That's fine. But that's not OTHER people being impacted. Victimless.
Not true. Because I jaywalk it doesn't mean that I will then turn around and rob a bank. The 'slipper slope' logic is flawed in so many ways.
If I speed hack and run around alone with no one or thing around, is that also impacting other people? If so, how?
Correct. The game is about fun. If I want to have fun in real life and do it in a way that effects no one but me, shouldn't I be able to? As soon as that fun impacts someone else, then its an issue. Not before.
You buy accounts that tell how the skills were gained? I have never seen any for sale that used that as a selling point. Guess I don't buy enough accounts to see that trend. To me, a 6xLeg character is worth the same as another 6XLeg character regardless of how they got there.
Last I checked, the RNG doesn't take into account how a character gained there skills. Again, flawed logic. Everyone has an equal chance there. Everyone.
So the truth finally comes out. You want to remain one of the 'chosen ones' that have such and such to their name. "I don't want other 120 skilled players because I only feel validated if I am the only one!" Sad.
So, you think players should only be allowed to play one hour a day because some people can only play one hour a day? After all, if they play 10 hours a day they are adding more gold to the game that the one hour player can't match. So, fair is fair, right? Let's put limits on game time to keep things balanced.Another example would be it could take 6 months for someone to get 120 magery or 1 week. Non-cheater versus cheater. The 6 months that the non-cheater is working magery, they are not out using their skills to flood even more gold and items into a bad economy. The more people who cheat, the higher and faster inflation rises. Or do you have an argument to explain why inflation is a good thing?
No. Because those people that choose NOT to script will still suffer for the economy changes (your argument) caused by those that did. And those people like you that feel validated by having 'done it the hard way' will quit because now they have to share all that 'fame' of being a legendary tamer. Yep, you get validation in game differently than I. Its about fun for me, not recognition.
Exactly. I agree. EA should make it legal so everyone can do it. Since it doesn't hurt anyone there is no point to it not being so. We agree! And I would be sad to see you calling all those suffragettes scummy just because they fought to do something that was illegal. Sad, but not surprised.If something is legal then anyone can do it. If it is illegal than only people with a poor moral code who can easily lie to themselves and are weak scummy cheaters can do it.
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D'Amavir
Guest
No criteria fits every situation. Some random 'label' by some game designer really has no bearing on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. You said it yourself, if the 'label' was changed, suddenly its alright and doesn't hurt anyone. But, if that label isn't changed, the very same act hurts everyone. Flawed logic yet again.
You missed so many of the points I was making I don't even know if it's worth debating with you anymore. I prefer to argue with people who at least get what I'm saying, but I'll take one more shot.
The rules made by the game developers are an absolute, and when you signed the ToS you agreed to abide by them. Real life rules are fluid and are prone to being changed or overturned as our society grows and changes. There are also legal ways to demonstrate and show that you think a law is unjust, and there are legal ways to show you think a game rule is unjust - like writing an email to the devs or chrissay or customer service and trying to get change enacted. Please don't act like you are a modern day Lucretia Mott because you script in an online game for your own benefit. The comparison is just embarrassing.
This almost even isn't worth addressing. People don't speedhack so they can "run around alone". That's probably the dumbest argument I've heard for speedhacking, ever.
You missed my point, I hope on purpose. There ARE accounts that are for sale where the owners cheated to get the skills up quickly. More accounts for sale means they will have to charge less because of a surplus of accounts. So that means the guy selling off his 8 year old account where he painstakingly worked his characters up will get less money that the guy who spent a month cheating. Gosh I hope I made that clear enough so that even you can understand it now.
What you are referencing is my example about champ spawns and how a cheater took away an arty from a non-cheater. It is a time management example. Someone who cheats and scripts their skill gain now has a surplus of time that would not have been available to them before they cheated. So during that 6 month or whatever period that they would have been trying to gain legitimately they are instead out working champ spawns, which in turn reduces the opportunity for legitimate players to benefit. There are a million examples I could make of this point, I really hope I don't have to do that so that you finally understand it though.
There'd be validity to what you are saying if I cared about my character's skills. I think the only 120 skills I have are in tailoring and blacksmithing on my crafter. You asked for an example of how people are hurt in general, but you're trying to apply it specifically to me because my argument is upsetting you. It's pretty telling. I think even cheaters feel dirty inside, they just don't want other people to see that...
This references my point that skill scripters cause inflation to rise more quickly. Somehow you have managed to try to make it look like I am trying to go Harrison Bergeron on everyone. All I want is for people to play legitimately, if that means 1 hour a week or 10 hours a day I don't care. We should all be in the same boat as far as the rules are concerned. You're trying really hard to pretend that skill scripting doesn't bring more gold into the economy faster though. Are you also going to claim that someone *could* work skills just as fast legitimately as they could with a script? Something running overnight while they sleep? Something that doesn't take breaks for going to the bathroom or eating or just flat out boredom? Please, don't bother and end up embarassing yourself by trying to make that argument.
It would be a CHOICE that everyone would be free to make. They could choose to script or not to script, just like people can choose to use KR or 2D or UOA or gargoyle pickaxes or multiple accounts...I am FINE with any method that is legal that people use to advance, even ones that I don't choose to use.
This is an absolutely horrible real life example. For one thing the suffragettes were fighting for the rights of all women. But cheaters only cheat for themselves. Just because some laws have been wrong doesnt mean in this case that the rules you are dealing with are wrong as well. Mainly because this is a game. It ain't real life. To quote an oft used phrase, would you cheat in monopoly?
The rules made by the game developers are an absolute, and when you signed the ToS you agreed to abide by them. Real life rules are fluid and are prone to being changed or overturned as our society grows and changes. There are also legal ways to demonstrate and show that you think a law is unjust, and there are legal ways to show you think a game rule is unjust - like writing an email to the devs or chrissay or customer service and trying to get change enacted. Please don't act like you are a modern day Lucretia Mott because you script in an online game for your own benefit. The comparison is just embarrassing.
Haha, it's not a random "label", its the rules of the game! Would you hide an ace up your sleeve while playing texas hold em? Why not? Because it's CHEATING and doing it is breaking the rules you agree to when you play the game. It is not only disrespectful of your opponents, it is disrespectful of yourself. This is fundamental to me, that I respect the choices I make as an individual. If you don't care about what you do to yourself then I certainly can't make you see how important it is. But how we feel about ourselves reflects in how we deal with other people. When you do not grant yourself respect you are less likely to respect others and treat them well, and that reverberates all the way down the line.
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D'Amavir
Guest
That's not an argument for speedhacking. You brought up speedhacking even though it has nothing to do with the conversation. IF speedhacking did not have any impact on OTHER people, then it wouldn't be as bad. But since it DOES have an impact, its not the same thing at all. I get what you are saying but you clearly aren't getting what I do.
Oh, I got it the first time. But, again, you didn't. I don't base my fun in this game on how much other people can sell accounts for. I don't care if me having 120 in magery means that 1000000 other people have to sell their accounts for less. I don't care at all. Its about people having FUN, not about making money.
As would the person that plays 10 hours a day vs 1 hour a day.
Again, miss on your part. If you go to the champ spawn from April till Dec and get an arty ten times, when I go in Jan I still have exactly the same chance of getting one as anyone else there at that time. Stop basing your game on what other people have and just have fun playing.
You haven't made a point yet. You are talking about your person need for validation, not the enjoyment of a game.
Again, incorrect. I don't get upset. I enjoy teaching people things about the game. Nothing upsetting to me at all about people being wrong and then contradicting themselves over and over to feel better.
I thought petty insults were beneath you. Sadly, you disappoint.
You even admitted that the only thing keeping you from scripting skills is the label of it being illegal. But, if it turned legal you ignore the impact all of a sudden it would have on the economy you claim to care about.
Two words, advanced characters. Can you at least admit that EA allowing people to buy advanced characters also means that EA is supporting everything you are claiming to be against? Advanced characters get to champ spawns much faster than normal characters. Advanced characters bring more gold into the game faster than normal characters. And advanced characters get to pvp faster than normal characters. But that is ok to you, right? So, it has nothing to do with the economy for you. Its just the label.
No. I know better. That's the whole point. I know that people that script skills can gain faster than by not scripting skills. Thus, they get to be out having FUN in the game when otherwise they would be grinding away for months poisoning the same daggers over and over or walking behind a bull taming it. Its about FUN. Not profit. That's the difference between you and I.
No worries there.
Even if they kill the economy? Gotcha. The economy doesn't matter, just the label does. Glad we can remove the economy (that you brought up by the way) from the discussion.
Flawed again. I will use ME here to mean 'skill scripters' just because its shorter. Same with 'I'. I have been on this thread for a long time trying to make the point that EVERYONE should be able to skill script should they choose. If it is just about 'me', I could just be out skill scripting and not worry about it. I want EVERYONE to have the choice, not just me. ME is not stopped by some label. ME knows that the act is not hurting anyone.
No. Because that impacts the person I am playing against? Would I cheat at solitaire? No. But, if I did, and you lost sleep over it, then that says more about you than me. Use some decent examples at least.
Rules in game change to. UOA went from being not approved to being one of the approved third party tools in game. Fluid. 'PK'ing' went from having statloss applied to it to having no statloss. Fluid. You really don't think rules in this game change based on different events? Really?
I didn't compare myself to anyone. I compared the typical 'its a law so right or wrong, suck it up' posters to people that said the same thing about suffrage. Nice try though. Or not.
As always, people contradict themselves as soon as they start to realize they are wrong. You went from 'scripting skills is bad because it kills the economy' to 'I would be the first to script if the label changed'. Toss out the whole economy argument because you admitted that it doesn't really matter to you. Again, try at least.
Too many people want people in game to do what THEY want them to do. Not what the person paying to play wants to do. Just like real life. I won't even get into examples of people trying to control what others do even though it has no impact on them *cough* prop 8 *cough*. And they use the exact same flawed 'slippery slope' logic to try to justify it.
Victimless is victimless no matter how you slice it.
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D'Amavir
Guest
Its random because they could come out tomorrow and change it. Its not based on any real logic other than a whim on their part to allow or disallow.
"Scripting is bad" because it allows people to do things that weren't initially intended.
"Using goza mats to raise objects is good" because its a creative use of game mechanics.
Last time I checked, most 'creative uses' of game mechanics were called bugs. But, some are ok bugs and others aren't ok bugs.
Again, using poker is another flawed example. If I had an ace up my sleeve playing poker, it CLEARLY impacts other people. If I had one up my sleeve playing solitaire, it wouldn't. Different.
As for respect, what does that have to do with how I enjoy an online game? Suddenly you would lose respect for yourself if you started scripting skills when EA said it was ok? Its the same act. The only only only difference is the label. Its still as wrong or as right as before. And it still has the exact same impact.
You know how I feel about myself? Great. Why? Because I play a game online every day for enjoyment, not self validation. And I don't do anything in game that negatively impacts my fellow players. I also don't try to force my playstyle on said players. Again, that's what makes us different. Different strokes, as I always say.
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AesSedai
Guest
- You had my attention after the first two words...
(Maybe I can get back and read up on this humorous discussions later. But I'm thinking, 'you missed' is likely all I need to read)
x: Hey D: maybe read over my earlier post again. I already gave an example of how breaking the rules (even seemingly unimportant rules) affects everyone involved in UO.
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D'Amavir
Guest
No you didn't. But if you bothered actually reading the thread you would have seen me pointing that out to you already. Answering 'How does it affect other people' with 'everything affects other people' doesn't really show how it affects other people. Give an actual example of how. Just one. One example. But you probably won't read this so that won't happen. Then again, even if you did read it you wouldn't be able to.
MalagAste: " Lack of knowledge is an impairment that is easily remedied... if you are behind because you are too lazy to read a few forums then that's too bad for you... Don't blame others for your own ignorance."
In real life, we hire people with expertise in all kinds of fields. EG: Lawyers, Accountants, Engineers. Most people don't have time nor money for studying, researching and interpreting laws, rules, conditions and regulations. It's no different in UO.
UO is a reflection of real life. I've played the game for eleven years and still don't know all the rules. Never will. Real life keeps me too busy! Too busy to learn EVERYTHING about and to keep up with ALL UO new additions to the game, and old and new changes to laws and Regulations and far too busy to find time for reading all the posts, threads, messages, rules buried deep in ALL forums searching for free knowledge, especially when I simply want to use the time for enjoying playing the game, building skills, and having fun. It helps to visit the forums to ask a question, no matter how it ignorant it sounds to the well-informed. I just wish everyone would try be constructively informative, instead of turning their messages into put-downs.
So you ask, WHY play the game if one isn't prepared to spend time learning about it?" Answer: People have real life priorities that come firstl! EG: Earning a living, and learning rules and regulations for filing income Taxes. Games are for fun and relaxation. It's paranoid to ban players for not knowing the rules. Innocent until proven guilty? Or Guilty until proven innocent?
Tortfeasor - Animals in the house? Banned for that? YIKES! What next?
PS: Jade wishes to build an igloo on snow lands, and wishes, for a veteran's reward, a fishing hole that produces fish. Thank you in advance.
In real life, we hire people with expertise in all kinds of fields. EG: Lawyers, Accountants, Engineers. Most people don't have time nor money for studying, researching and interpreting laws, rules, conditions and regulations. It's no different in UO.
UO is a reflection of real life. I've played the game for eleven years and still don't know all the rules. Never will. Real life keeps me too busy! Too busy to learn EVERYTHING about and to keep up with ALL UO new additions to the game, and old and new changes to laws and Regulations and far too busy to find time for reading all the posts, threads, messages, rules buried deep in ALL forums searching for free knowledge, especially when I simply want to use the time for enjoying playing the game, building skills, and having fun. It helps to visit the forums to ask a question, no matter how it ignorant it sounds to the well-informed. I just wish everyone would try be constructively informative, instead of turning their messages into put-downs.
So you ask, WHY play the game if one isn't prepared to spend time learning about it?" Answer: People have real life priorities that come firstl! EG: Earning a living, and learning rules and regulations for filing income Taxes. Games are for fun and relaxation. It's paranoid to ban players for not knowing the rules. Innocent until proven guilty? Or Guilty until proven innocent?
Tortfeasor - Animals in the house? Banned for that? YIKES! What next?
PS: Jade wishes to build an igloo on snow lands, and wishes, for a veteran's reward, a fishing hole that produces fish. Thank you in advance.
I brought up speedhacking as an example of an argument a cheater would make. And all forms of cheating have an impact on other people. So therefore it was a valid example.
You asked how scripting skill gain can impact other people negatively and I answered. I fail to see what your "fun" has to do with the question, period. Trying to avoid that I'm obviously right? It's your opinion what should or should not constitute "fun", and has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever.
If someone can farm gold, mine, or do anything else that is repetitive but earns them gold or some other pixel items for 10 hours a day then more power to them. They certainly deserve their rewards, and certainly don't deserve to have those rewards devalued by those who cheat.
I can't believe you STILL can't get this point. Time = money. When people script to save time they gain a chance to make more money. You LOSE OUT on having a chance to get an arty if the cheater goes to the champ spawn DURING the time they would have otherwise been trying to work their skill and gets the arty instead of you. I honestly don't know how many more ways I can say it so you can understand...
But I am having fun...? BTW I probably have a couple billion worth of items and gold from playing the game legitimately. I don't base my worth on what others do, because I base my worth on who I am and how I act. Self respect is something that you can't buy or cheat your way into getting.
Actually I was giving a variety of examples in order to show that cheating hurts people in many ways on many different levels. You'd rather not acknowledge any of them though, because that would mean *gasp!* that you're wrong, and skill gain scripts are in fact bad for the game!
If you're going to make a claim (example: I'm not upset), don't immediately follow it up with an incorrect judgment meant to make the person you are debating with look wrong. Cause it kind of highlights that you're getting upset...but please point out where I have once contradicted myself if you honestly feel that is the case.
It's a genuine belief. I think people who cheat lie to themselves, but they know the truth deep down inside and dislike themselves because of it. But then I guess I also think that everyone has been raised to have some kind of moral compass and will get resulting guilty feelings when they do something wrong. I guess I'm an optimist?
You say "admitted" like you forced me into some kind of revelation. You asked and I answered. I don't cheat, because by nature cheating is illegal. I'm glad we have come to an understanding on this point. It would be too difficult to get into an economics discussion right now, but you seem to be thinking linearly - as in; well a few scritpers script so they inflate the economy a bit, therefore if everyone scripts the economy gets inflated a whole lot! It's a lot more complicated than that though.
It is absolutely true that if scripting were legal people would make more gold and gold would devalue more rapidly than it would have otherwise. People would farm more resources and those would devalue as a surplus is created. As it is, the necessary correction that needs to be made (I think it needs to be made now and is long overdue) thanks to game inflation will occur more quickly. It's pretty much up to the devs to decide what to do, but at some point they will have to put in place some kind of gold sinks in addition to taking corrective measures. At least by that time everyone would have had a shot at scripting their way to fortune (yawn, sounds boring) instead of just a few.
I don't care for the advanced character system and think it was a real blow to people who had worked hard to get their characters how they wanted them. I can understand the reason they introduced the system, but I still think it hurt the game.
Actually it's not about profit to me in the least. But the real difference between you and I is that I understand what it means to respect myself and others, and you do not.
You keep forgetting that you asked for examples, and I provided them. I would script if scripting were legal and I would support the eventual economic corrections that the devs really need to put into place. The economic problems up till that point affect everyone's game. I cannot imagine that they would ever do any sort of gold wipe in totality (IE all the gold and checks just flat out gone), but I can well imagine that they would reduce all the gold in the system by up to 90% just to get people back on par with NPC prices and monster loot drops. If scripting is legal for 1 year before that happens then the majority of players will be prepared to be on par with each other post wipe. If scripting is illegal still and people still cheat then there will be a small majority made up mostly of cheater who will still be ahead of the game.
Gee thats great that you feel that way. But it just wouldn't happen. There are people who would (and have) quit the game before they ever cheat. So as long as one is still cheating and there are people who refuse to cheat because it is against the rules (or whatever reason), then you are gaining an unreasonable advantage over them.
Of course the rules change. They are absolute at the time they are made, and up until the point they are changed. If you feel like a rule is not fair then petition to have it changed, but abusing it and claiming it hurts no one is BS.
The two do not cancel each other out. I have said on these boards before that I'd script if it was legal. You seem to not understand the rather basic concept that because something is illegal, people will not do it. Yes it is a label, and it stands for something that is important to certain people. Therefore people who decide that they don't like the label so they'll go ahead and cheat are giving themselves and advantage over others.
Want another example?
I have a mage who is at 112.something. I log her in here and there to get her GGS. I'm sure it'll take me a few months to get to 120. I'm not in a huge rush, but I'd like to get her to legendary so I can make spellbooks with good mods and not waste scrolls. In the few months that it will take me to get her to 120 player made spell books will devalue further, so I will get less for the good books I make by then. This is only an example, it's not some cricitcal facet of my game that I sell spellbooks to the masses. But this is just one example of a million about how cheating could benefit me but hurt other players (those who gain the old fashioned way and don't get to make their spellbooks right away.)
What if they introduced a new skill that lets miners dig up special stone, but was very hard to gain in? Skill scripters would be the first ones to benefit from the results of their "labors" and would reap the most rewards. Can you seriously not see how this hurts other players who play legitimately?
Uh yeah. I don't think it's asking too much to ask people to NOT CHEAT in a multiplayer game. You are...too amusing.
And as for "victimless crime", please see my "new skill" example and try to convince yourself that skill scripters aren't hurting anyone in that example. Really.
You aren't playing solitaire though, you're playing a multiplayer game. Everything you do affects everyone else, whether or not you stick your head in the sand and try to ignore that fact, it IS a fact. Thus is the ecology of UO.
Uh no, I respect myself because I don't cheat. That is where the respect comes from. It has nothing to do with the act of scripting, but instead the act of not cheating. You are disrespecting other players when you cheat. Your argument is like saying if you're married and you cheat on your wife, it isn't wrong because she doesn't know. So therefore she can't be hurt by it. I mean, what she doesn't know can't hurt her right? And "married" is just a label anyways, we all know those aren't important. I mean whats the difference, you could have had sex with a woman if you weren't married, so obviously it's no different...
I just want to apologize to the mods for having to read all this. I can be really annoyingly wordy sometimes when I'm trying to figure out exactly how I want to present an argument. Maybe you guys could assign chunks and break it up in pieces for each of you to read?
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AesSedai
Guest
- Look, I'm very busy but I did find it worthwhile to try to point out some of the nonsense you were campaigning because I find it quite detrimental to the game to have more and more players 'ignantly' believing that cheating is harmless and only provides a benefit to them. The rules are there for a reason (the Devs. didn't spend time writing them for nothing - hey there's something else that affects, had a direct impact on, everyone involved in UO). Jaywalking is illegal for a reason (even if you are personally wise enough to cross a street safely, good for you... but you aren't the only one in the world, ya' know, & you might appreciate that 'rule' if someone jumps out in the street in front of your car and you can't avoid them in time). Here, my original example:
- Obviously you didn't consider that to be an example (x: of how breaking rules impacts & affects other people) or you didn't consider it to be up to your specifications.
Fine [brickwall thing], here ya' go:
Monk robes - a direct result of people breaking the rules and exploiting game mechanics that cost the Devs. (programmers/QA/community reps. , etc.) to spend hours changing the game because of rule-breakers.
x: oops, forgot to spell it out for ya', sir: Just that one example of 'harmless' cheating directly impacted everyone involved in UO because it costs them time and we pay for the time it takes them to work on UO.
If you sat and thought about it for a moment, I'm sure you could come up with dozens and dozens of examples just like that on your own; if you wanted to.
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D'Amavir
Guest
No, it wasn't. One HAS an impact on other people. One DOESN'T.
Ask me my favorite color and I say baseball. I answered, yes. But did the answer even come close to being an answer for the actual question?
I play to have fun. Not for in game validation of my greatness as one of the only 120 tamers in the game like you.
What are you right about? I haven't seen anything yet and I have read every word.
It does when people bring up comments like 'they are cheating themselves' to justify their flawed logic. Sound familiar?
So, if EA came out and said that playing more than 2 hours a day was cheating, you would have no complaints? Really? I find that hard to believe.
I still can't believe you think you made a point.
As do people that buy advanced characters (legal) and play for more hours than others (legal).
So, you want to be able to do spawns alone so you can get more loot? Really? That's what the game is about for you? Sad to be you I bet. I can go to the champ spawns every day and have just as much chance as anyone else there to get an arty. RNG, again, does not know how they got their skills.
[qoute]I honestly don't know how many more ways I can say it so you can understand...[/quote]
You could try logically. Nah, too much for you.
For someone that has so much you sure do whine a lot about what other people might get or how them getting a chance for something might make you have less of a chance. Greedy much?
Just saying you gave an example isn't the same as actually giving an example. Which, as we know, you haven't done yet.
Sure. Here ya go. You 'claimed' all these things that were damaging to the game in regards to skill scripting. Which seemed to imply that you thought skill scripting was inherently bad for the game. Then, you turned around and said it EA relabeled it, you would be the first to do it. Which seems to imply that all those examples that you gave are meaningless to you when compared to the label of the act itself.If you're going to make a claim (example: I'm not upset), don't immediately follow it up with an incorrect judgment meant to make the person you are debating with look wrong. Cause it kind of highlights that you're getting upset...but please point out where I have once contradicted myself if you honestly feel that is the case.
Sadly, I think you really think that. Just like all those people that try to make other people live the way they want them too really believe in what they do as well.
The fact that you even attempt to use 'moral compass' in relation to training a skill in a video game shows that 'optimist' is not the word that should be used to describe you.
No, I say admitted like the dictionary defines it.
" to acknowledge; confess: "
I asked, you acknowledged. Yes.
No one has denied that it is illegal. Just like other things have been illegal in the past even though they weren't inherently wrong or harmful to anyone else. Sure.
Really? Ten people pouring water in a pool gets such and such amount of water. But 100000 people pouring water in the pool doesn't get a lot more water in it? Really? Nice.
Not really since people like you wouldn't do it because its bad for the economy. Wait, you would do it because the label was changed and the economy wouldn't matter to you then. Wait, which story are you going with now? I can't keep up with all the changes.
So, now its boring to script? But you would be the first to do it if the label was changed? Again, I can't keep up with all your story changes.
How so? I never used one myself and other people using them wasn't a blow to me at all. Again, I am not about some game validation like you though. I feel good about having fun, not about being able to say I have something others don't.
I have much respect for myself. How I gain or don't gain skills in an online game really doesn't change that. I know it somehow does for you, but my self esteem goes far beyond online game validation. Maybe one day yours will too. And its funny hearing how you have respect for others. Especially after all the petty insults you have tossed out here. Or, do you only respect people that agree with you even when you are wrong?
Oh, I know I asked. And I am still waiting for some. Got any?
You act like the economy is only an issue because of how someone besides you gain skill points. As if.
Again, the economy is damage by things that don't include how someone GM'd poisoning.
No more than those buying the advanced characters or playing more hours. Two are ok, according to EA, but one isn't.
No, its fact. Not BS. Until you can actually prove that it impacts people beyond your need for validation as Legendary Skillsoandsohaver.
And ruin the economy? Shame on you!
Another? I would settle for ONE.
Good thing its not about the money for you then, right? Or was that a false statement on your part too? Since you just said this
So, which is it?
Every example you tried to use ends up being about how much money you can make. Either by selling items before anyone else or selling accounts before anyone else. But, its not about the profit for you, no ma'am.
Not really since as you claim its not about the profit but about how you act. So, you would be able to stare at your moral compass and look down your nose at all those dirty miners and feel superior because of how you acted. Sounds like them scripting actually benefited you, huh?
Cheating that impacts other people, I agree.
Done and done. I get that you want to keep being big momma fat stacks and have all the loot you can get your hands on. If some 'new stone' came out, the first people that got it would be whoever trained the skill the most. If that was scripters, that's who it is. If it was powergamers, that's who it was. And if it was advanced character buyers, that's who it was. And I am sure that seeing someone else get some new stone before you would just give you nightmares every night. After all, its all about validation. Gimme gimme is just a playstyle I don't understand as well as you, I guess. No biggie, I don't understand Italian as well as Italians either. And I get by just fine. Cause I have respect for myself and for other people. Try it, you might like it.
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D'Amavir
Guest
Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.
More power to ya. I have respect for myself in more ways than just how I do or don't gain skill in a game.
I get it. Its the label, not the act. Not the 'impact on the economy'. The label. I get it.
Bitter much? That's not even in the same ballpark.
Wow, your logic is out there. And not in a good way. Its really out there. Like, in a scary I hope you don't show up at my house way. Wow.
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D'Amavir
Guest
People got Monk robes by scripting skill gain? Really? I wasn't aware of that. Good one! How exactly did they do that pray tell? You might not have noticed but the discussion was 'how does scripting skill gain affect other people'. Sure, you gave an answer. To what question I don't know. But an answer nonetheless. Bravo!
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D'Amavir
Guest
Wow, you really didn't read the thread did you? The 'jaywalking' comment was made as a way of showing that there are much worse things in game that GM's should be dealing with than someone gaining skill using a script. As in, would you rather a cop focus on jaywalkers or murderers?
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D'Amavir
Guest
Ya, I have already gotten word from the inside that the crew has started working to get this shut down asap so that certain people won't feel bad about not being able to make any sense. So, expect that really soon. I am not surprised.I just want to apologize to the mods for having to read all this. I can be really annoyingly wordy sometimes when I'm trying to figure out exactly how I want to present an argument. Maybe you guys could assign chunks and break it up in pieces for each of you to read?
p.s. One down and one to go! Until the next time someone starts a thread about the same topic. Which will be tomorrow I am sure.
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Nh'bdy
Guest
THEMOSTEPICQUOTEWAREVAR!
win
QFT
It's really very simple. When I bought the game and loaded it on my pc I agreed to the terms of service. I made a promise to abide by those rules. My promises mean something to me, I keep them.
There is no need for any of the rest of this 'scripting' argument. The question was 'is it illegal to lock game creatures in your house'
The answer is, while it's permissible (though inadvisable) to leave pets in the house, it is not allowed to lock untamed creatures in, it is classed as 'blocking'.
There is no need for any of the rest of this 'scripting' argument. The question was 'is it illegal to lock game creatures in your house'
The answer is, while it's permissible (though inadvisable) to leave pets in the house, it is not allowed to lock untamed creatures in, it is classed as 'blocking'.
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AesSedai
Guest
1 Take my monk robe example.
2 Now think about how, just as with the monk robe example, the Devs. have spent countless hours dealing with skill gain over the years, as a result of people abusing skill gains (8x8, no 8x8, golems, golems that deal damage.... many many more changes; if you care to stop and think about it).
3 Now think about how, just as with the two examples above, the Devs. have spent countless hours on the illegal scripting situation over the years.
=
Eureka!: All three are related and all three are examples of how breaking rules, by cheating, directly affect and impact everyone involved in UO.
I really didn't think I had to spell it out to you by making a direct correlation between obviously similar forms of cheating that some, perhaps even you, tend to dismiss as being 'victimless'. Thought you could connect A and B. I'm disappointed, heh (not really, I'm just toying with a phrase you used earlier in what looked to be an attempt to try to get some added leverage behind your statements).
I guess you misunderstood where I was pointing out to you that jaywalking is not as harmless of an activity as you think and places consider it to be illegal for a reason, no matter how arbitrary you feel the rule is.
Can you grasp how that concept (concept of the affects of jaywalking), which you brought up as a comparison, can loosely relate to illegally scripting skill gain in UO?
Granted jaywalking is not murder but it has killed people and is against the law in many places...
Yet, I would consider scripting skill gain to be more more harmful than jaywalking; more like what the chaps at Enron did to their fellow employees when they cheated and destroyed their company's micro-economy even though they probably fooled themselves into thinking it was a victimless crime. Dangit, why did I bring that up? Sorry all, I shouldn't have started another detour in this funny little journey of a thread.
(Btw, don't even bother trying to further derail the subject and try to imply that I am against legal scripting. I have no problems with legally 'scripting' skill gain with UO or UOA while attended...
I am only in this thread because I'm concerned with cheating & breaking the rules of UO. Sometimes cheaters need to be reminded that they're being naughty and affecting others with their actions, imo.)
2 Now think about how, just as with the monk robe example, the Devs. have spent countless hours dealing with skill gain over the years, as a result of people abusing skill gains (8x8, no 8x8, golems, golems that deal damage.... many many more changes; if you care to stop and think about it).
3 Now think about how, just as with the two examples above, the Devs. have spent countless hours on the illegal scripting situation over the years.
=
Eureka!: All three are related and all three are examples of how breaking rules, by cheating, directly affect and impact everyone involved in UO.
I really didn't think I had to spell it out to you by making a direct correlation between obviously similar forms of cheating that some, perhaps even you, tend to dismiss as being 'victimless'. Thought you could connect A and B. I'm disappointed, heh (not really, I'm just toying with a phrase you used earlier in what looked to be an attempt to try to get some added leverage behind your statements
).I guess you misunderstood where I was pointing out to you that jaywalking is not as harmless of an activity as you think and places consider it to be illegal for a reason, no matter how arbitrary you feel the rule is.
Can you grasp how that concept (concept of the affects of jaywalking), which you brought up as a comparison, can loosely relate to illegally scripting skill gain in UO?
Granted jaywalking is not murder but it has killed people and is against the law in many places...
Yet, I would consider scripting skill gain to be more more harmful than jaywalking; more like what the chaps at Enron did to their fellow employees when they cheated and destroyed their company's micro-economy even though they probably fooled themselves into thinking it was a victimless crime. Dangit, why did I bring that up? Sorry all, I shouldn't have started another detour in this funny little journey of a thread.
(Btw, don't even bother trying to further derail the subject and try to imply that I am against legal scripting. I have no problems with legally 'scripting' skill gain with UO or UOA while attended...
I am only in this thread because I'm concerned with cheating & breaking the rules of UO. Sometimes cheaters need to be reminded that they're being naughty and affecting others with their actions, imo.)
Heh, guess I just won the argument and can stop giving the mods headaches now. I mean you clearly couldn't argue against my hypothesis in this situation that scripters who skill up first are the ones to benefit. You already admitted earlier that people who script gain skill faster than people who don't. So therefore in this situation a scripter would be cheating a legitimite player out of their shinies.
BTW for the record I made arguments against you, not personal arguments about how I've been injured by scripters. It's a little something about how I can look around and see how other people are affected by something that may not personally affect me. So no, I don't have a legendary tamer, I don't pvm much at all in fact, I don't do champ spawns except to get bone for my tailors and vendors at ilsh, and will rarely see them to completion if I'm there already.
My examples involving money are because this is an item based game, and money is the medium from which we buy all goods and services. Surely you can understand that point? I run about a million vendors and 95% of them sell piddly things like repair deeds, engraving tools, plants, furniture...I lose money on these vendors for the most part because I like providing things that people need. I have a lot of money because I've done a ton of idocs, and it's impossible to not get rich doing idocs. Pretty much all your assumptions about me are false.
Petra made a really good point anyways and without my long windedness. I hope you don't fail to acknowledge it.
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AesSedai
Guest
- Didn't see your post until now, Petra Fyde.
You're right about the subject of the thread.
But hopefully the OP doesn't have too many objections to discussing the difference between following the rules of the game and breaking the rules of the game. As, it is fairly obvious there are people playing UO that aren't playing by the same rules we all agreed to play by... and it would be great if this thread somehow got through to some of them and helped them realize how they are hurting UO and their fellow players when they choose to cheat.
PSA = over
You're right about the subject of the thread.
But hopefully the OP doesn't have too many objections to discussing the difference between following the rules of the game and breaking the rules of the game. As, it is fairly obvious there are people playing UO that aren't playing by the same rules we all agreed to play by... and it would be great if this thread somehow got through to some of them and helped them realize how they are hurting UO and their fellow players when they choose to cheat.
PSA = over
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D'Amavir
Guest
Being first to get something doesn't prevent anyone from getting that same something later. So, you can get your shinies and anything else you want whenever you get them. Not sure how that 'wins' anything for you. I stated from the start that people that play for 10 hours a day get some things before people that play for 1. I just don't see anything wrong with that. But, as I said, I am not all about the gimme gimmes like you.
You didn't give any examples at of how anyone was 'injured' by anything. You did say over and over that you might not get your gimme gimmes as fast as someone else might.
I made no assumptions. You made statements and I mentioned those statements.My examples involving money are because this is an item based game, and money is the medium from which we buy all goods and services. Surely you can understand that point? I run about a million vendors and 95% of them sell piddly things like repair deeds, engraving tools, plants, furniture...I lose money on these vendors for the most part because I like providing things that people need. I have a lot of money because I've done a ton of idocs, and it's impossible to not get rich doing idocs. Pretty much all your assumptions about me are false.
Acknowledge what? That its illegal? As if I haven't said that from the start. I know what is legal and what isn't legal. But, 'legal' does not always equal right. See, I can acknowledge things. Unlike you.
Like I said from the beginning, jaywalking is 'illegal'. But I would much rather have all the cops in the city stopping crime that actually is worth bothering with than wasting their time tracking down jaywalkers.
If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
But, to repeat. Scripting for skill gain is illegal. It is illegal to script skill gain. There is a rule in game against scripting for skill gain. In UO, you are not allowed to script skill gain. How many more ways should I say the exact same thing?
Oh yeah, scripting for skill gain is illegal. In case you didn't know. Look at me, I made a point. But even that one I bet you won't get.
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D'Amavir
Guest
If by hurting you mean not impacting anyone else, then I agree 100%.- Didn't see your post until now, Petra Fyde.
You're right about the subject of the thread.
But hopefully the OP doesn't have too many objections to discussing the difference between following the rules of the game and breaking the rules of the game. As, it is fairly obvious there are people playing UO that aren't playing by the same rules we all agreed to play by... and it would be great if this thread somehow got through to some of them and helped them realize how they are hurting UO and their fellow players when they choose to cheat.
PSA = over
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AesSedai
Guest
- I guess you missed my reply to you that posted right after Petra Fyde's?
Read it and maybe you will understand, by the examples you asked and I provided you with (yeah, more than one example, heh), how cheating hurts everyone (including the cheaters themselves, even if the consequences are not immediately noticed); or maybe not. I won't hold my breath. Take care.
Read it and maybe you will understand, by the examples you asked and I provided you with (yeah, more than one example, heh), how cheating hurts everyone (including the cheaters themselves, even if the consequences are not immediately noticed); or maybe not. I won't hold my breath. Take care.
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