Illegal house desgn?

[Tortfeasor]

I woke up this morning and tried to log in and my account has been suspended. Received an email saying "Violation: Abuse of Ultima Online Game/Service Mechanics(Illegal House Design)" I have no idea how I violated this. I did have a few cu's locked in house but they were there to hold and in no way, was I using for skill gain. This makes no sense to me at all...My house is set to private so no one else was even there. The ban stated it was done at 4 am this morning and was not in game for at least ten hours. Has anyone ever had this happen or know what the heck is going on?

 

[Black Sun]

Having any animals in a house that they can't get out of one their own is considered illegal.

 

[Tortfeasor]

Well I guess I know that now but why a ban? No were in the contract did I ever read game animals can not be held hostage. On the email I received it stated I broke:

Rules of Conduct: 13) You may not use the Ultima Online Service or the Ultima
Online Web Site for any activities other than activities that are permitted
within the game world.

For all I know based on this "rule" wearing a red cape with a white shirt and running through a dungeon could be considered worthy of a ban. With this rule being so open ended I do not even see the point of having other rules. So, now my account has a mark against it based on one GM's perception of this god rule. Does not seem to reasonable to me...

 

[Kurgan]

I have no idea how I violated this. I did have a few cu's locked in house but they were there to hold and in no way, was I using for skill gain.

This is why. Holding animals in the house is considered illegal to do.

Rule #6 of
Ultima Online Service Rules of Conduct

You may not leave an active character or pet in game while unattended. If your character is performing a skill, text or action, you must be able to respond to a Game Master when one attempts to speak to you.

Couls also be this.

QUESTION
Can I keep my pets in my house?

Answer

You can leave pets in your house, but if they are not "refreshed" by being targeted or damaged, they will disappear. If you have a pet you would like to keep, seek out a stable master or animal trainer and stable the pet. All animals and creatures are subject to decay, even pets. To prevent a pet from decaying, it must take damage or be targeted periodically. If a creature is not targeted, or takes no damage, for approximately 2 hours (the amount of time can vary), the creature will decay and disappear. You can target your pet using a skill such as Animal Lore, Anatomy, or Evaluate Intelligence.

It is not legal to block NPC's or monsters with objects. The deliberate blocking of monsters or NPC’s with objects such as boats, crates, house tiles, invisible pets or invisible players with the intent to gain an unfair advantage, like skill gain or monster killing is considered an exploit and can result in account penalties. This also applies to “animal pens” or “Safe areas” in the game world. If the animal/monster cannot damage you, then you are abusing the system and will be asked to stop.

However there are times in which we will allow this. If your home is set up to be a stable, or you are showing off various animals of Britannia and these animals are not being used to gain skill, attack other players (in Trammel), or provide any unfair advantage to you or others then it is ok to leave your pets/animals in your home. However, please be aware that a Game Master may remove any wild pets if those pets are found providing an unfair advantage to other players or are causing an issue with the game in that area. These decisions are made on a case by case basis and players should follow the decision made at the time.

 

[Tortfeasor]

The pets were in my house untamed and not being used in anyway. My account was logged for probably 10 hours prior to this ban so the statement of 2 hour decay seems flawed. I am focus on the contract and how my activities went against it. Everything I have been told so far is strictly hearsay.

 

[GreywolfUK]

Tortfeasor, this house was it on Europa, at the Fens of the Dead north of Trinsic, if thats the case then there have been wild high end pets locked in that house for the last couple of weeks, that I have seen when I recall there to tame swampies for new players.

 

[RichDC]

Chances are someone paged on your pen before they decayed and it took a gm that long to respond.

Either way, you just gotta accept the fact that its against the rules. I know many people who have been temp banned for keeping pets while deciding which ones to keep due to full stables...learn from your mistake, dont do it again and stop whining


Sorry if it sounds like a troll, just get annoyed with people complaining about being banned for doing something that is wrong...so i kinda guess it is a troll

 

[Fink]

Hmm, rotten.

I have a tiny house on a midsize plot with a corral type fence around it. Occasionally I've left sheep, cows etc in the yard for a farmhouse look. I'd really like it if there were a way to keep livestock for resources, perhaps as an adjunct to the Herding skill. Anyway..

Maybe I should just stick to keeping gorillas seeing as they can open the gate themselves and won't technically be trapped there. Anyone want a warm glass of fresh gorilla milk?

 

[Thangorodrim]

The pets were in my house untamed and not being used in anyway. My account was logged for probably 10 hours prior to this ban so the statement of 2 hour decay seems flawed. I am focus on the contract and how my activities went against it. Everything I have been told so far is strictly hearsay.

So, you are blocking monsters in the house then. Why are you confused?

What *we* are hearing is the hearsay. No one has 'told' you hearsay, rather the rules have been quoted. That is not hearsay.

Is this a permanent ban?

 

[Old Man of UO]

Hmm, rotten... Anyone want a warm glass of fresh gorilla milk?

I've read some pretty disgusting things, but Fink, you win!

 

[Lynk]

There is only one reason someone has a stable-type setup filled with Cu Sidhes..

 

[Old Man of UO]

There is only one reason someone has a stable-type setup filled with Cu Sidhes..

Two reasons... the other bard skill works with cu sidhe, too!

 

[Velvathos]

Having any animals in a house that they can't get out of one their own is considered illegal.

I find this funny because it is not a bug or exploit or anything. If the game mechanics allow you to do it, then it should be legal. If EA does not like it when you lock a pet in your house..

Well... That's their fault, the game mechanics are there, and most players like Black Sun, does not even know that it is one of their messed up rules of theirs.

 

[Thangorodrim]

I find this funny because it is not a bug or exploit or anything. If the game mechanics allow you to do it, then it should be legal. If EA does not like it when you lock a pet in your house..

Well... That's their fault, the game mechanics are there, and most players like Black Sun, does not even know that it is one of their messed up rules of theirs.

It is by definition an exploit of game mechanics.

 

[Tazar]

Considering how many times I have logged in to find my house filled with Gorillas... or even Dragons left behind as a joke by guildmates... it would be sad to be banned for that.

 

[Lady Tiger]

I have unicorns or cows locked in my house's stables just for looks too....we put the stables in why can't we fill them...or how about the auction houses that have us lock are pets in stables while attending auction??? shouldn't they be banned to???? I feel this was an unfair ban.

 

[Black Sun]

Well... That's their fault, the game mechanics are there, and most players like Black Sun, does not even know that it is one of their messed up rules of theirs.

I never said I agreed with it, but it's considered illegal to block monsters/npcs (which techinically unless a pet is tamed, it's an npc/monster). There's a lot of rules/laws I don't agree with (both IRL and in game), but I still abide by them.

He asked why he was banned, and I told him the most likely reason.

 

[jaraxlebaenrae]

So let me get this straight...repeatedly paging on a script miner/miners has no affect.....paging on someone with wild animals in their houses and the gms are all over it?

Seems about right....glad i reactivated my WOW account.

 

[Old Man of UO]

.... If the game mechanics allow you to do it, then it should be legal. If EA does not like it when you lock a pet in your house..

Well... That's their fault, the game mechanics are there, ....

Yes, but by that logic, the game mechanics allows duping, and therefore duping should be legal? It's not the same thing, but I find that logic applies.

 

[Lynk]

I have unicorns or cows locked in my house's stables just for looks too....we put the stables in why can't we fill them...or how about the auction houses that have us lock are pets in stables while attending auction??? shouldn't they be banned to???? I feel this was an unfair ban.

cows, sheep, gorillas, and the like.. don't really allow you to do what this guy was probably doing.

Having Cu Sidhes (non casting, perfect level of barding difficulty) trapped allows you to automate certain things with 0 risk.

A GM probably saw the house, saw multiple Cus, and put 2 + 2 together.

TBH - I could care less if he was doing it to gain skills, that particular one is a pain in the ass. What is stupid is doing something wrong, and then crying about it when you get caught. Suck it up and start over.

 

[Goodmann]

forteaser,

I saw the guy who paged on you last night on atlantic. I was talking to him once the GM removed your 15 cu's from your house. You were macroing afk it appeared thats why he paged a GM he said. I do not agree with his/the GM's actions if you were attended macroing. Hopefully this is a lesson learned. Good Luck

 

[Black Sun]

I do not agree with his/the GM's actions if you were attended macroing. Hopefully this is a lesson learned. Good Luck

Attended macroing or not, trapping creatures to use for skill gain at zero risk is against the rules.

 

[MalagAste]

I'm sure the answer to that was in a FoF a few months back.... defiantly against the rules and a bannable offense be happy it was just temp ban...

I know I've looked into that before.... It's also a bannable offense to trap a Tame Cu in your house and have you and your friends cast stuff on it... However you can do this out in the open now and have just tell the Cu to "stop" and then "all stay".... and then you and your friends can cast away to your hearts content however he won't work his healing. At any rate silly post you know it was bannable.. or you should have. Apparently more people ought to be not only reading the FoF more regularly but they should be reading stratics more regularly... They would then know these things.

I get on my guildmates all the time for that..... Lack of knowledge is an impairment that is easily remedied... if you are behind because you are too lazy to read a few forums then that's too bad for you... Don't blame others for your own ignorance.

Ignorance due to laziness is not the fault of EA/UO or your guild. Knowledge is free... and once you have it can not be taken back... Expand your mind and you expand the possibilities and you also make for a far better addition to any community.

 

[Thangorodrim]

forteaser,

I saw the guy who paged on you last night on atlantic. I was talking to him once the GM removed your 15 cu's from your house. You were macroing afk it appeared thats why he paged a GM he said. I do not agree with his/the GM's actions if you were attended macroing. Hopefully this is a lesson learned. Good Luck

I figured something like this would come out.

 

[JC the Builder]

You can't have pets in your house at all, no matter the design. Someone paged on me even though I was attended and standing in the middle of a bunch of animals trying to train Discordance. The Gamemaster said it isn't allowed to have pets in your house unless you are doing some type of zoo.

 

[sablestorm]

Hmm, rotten.

I have a tiny house on a midsize plot with a corral type fence around it. Occasionally I've left sheep, cows etc in the yard for a farmhouse look. I'd really like it if there were a way to keep livestock for resources, perhaps as an adjunct to the Herding skill. Anyway..

Maybe I should just stick to keeping gorillas seeing as they can open the gate themselves and won't technically be trapped there. Anyone want a warm glass of fresh gorilla milk?

I have one on Pacific like that as well. Usually some player comes along and slaughters the sheep or a gypsy will come by and open the pen, letting them out. Reading the last paragraph of Kurgan's post makes it seem like this is alright. Kurgan, where did you get your info?

While I'm at it, here's a question. What if some tamer comes along to some random person's house and released animals within? Could it get the house owner in trouble or do the GMs have a way of knowing who released the animals?

 

[Uriah Heep]

LOL
sheeesh
I had a house on atlantic that I designed a large corral in the front. And from time to time would tame and bring home all kinds of varmints...from horses and sheep, to mongbats and frenzied. Was just a thing I liked to do. And in my limited experience with it, 2 hours wont make em poof...
If something that simple can get ya in trouble,

 

[GarthGrey]

To the OP, wow sorry for your banning dude. 15 CU's trapped in your house seems pretty legit to me...God bless you man and have a Nice Day !!

 

[Storm]

I had been using polar bears recently to train discord I would go tame 5 and bring them to my house and use them till I get tired and then take them outside and release them or kill them ! the whole bottom of my house is open with no doors just teleporters.
that said the other day I had released outside my house and when I loged back in one of them had com in and had made it to my roof via the telepads all others where gone so is this considered illigal? do i need to sloter them all ?

 

[Draxous]

I do not agree with his/the GM's actions if you were attended macroing. Hopefully this is a lesson learned. Good Luck

Attended macroing or not, trapping creatures to use for skill gain at zero risk is against the rules.

So EAMythic should start banning all the players who train a combat skill on a golem too... right?

Your logic makes no freaking sense. If someone wants to be creative in how they level up their character... who the hell is anyone to insist that they be punished?

What I imagine when I read about this... is some irate dipstick who manually trained a skill over years and years of effort, only to go on an endless bitchfest over how it was unfair that another player was intelligent enough to figure out a cheaper, easier, better way to train the same skill.

A successful goal to make the other person pay for their genius?

Seriously... why would anyone in this thread care if someone else was training their character creatively, in their own home? Are people really that pathetic that they need to worry so much about what other people are doing instead of just having fun themselves?

I generally find that the people who go around looking for unattended macroers or just to page on people period, are for the most part only doing it to get a rise out of having the GMs punish someone.

Like paging on someone is an accomplishment, a badge of honor or something.

well kudos to your meaningless existance I say.

 

[Crysta]

So EAMythic should start banning all the players who train a combat skill on a golem too... right?

Yes. They should. Should have done it back when people started abusing it, even.

 

[D'Amavir]

Yes. They should. Should have done it back when people started abusing it, even.

Couldn't disagree more. Training wrestling to 120 on the 20th character you have leveled is mega dull. Who cares if someone using a golem to wrestle, honestly?

Aren't there much more important things that GM's could be doing with their time than running around after people doing nothing but training a skill? I can name ten right here.

1. Finding Resource scripters
2. Finding Heartwood Quest scripters
3. Finding runic hammer dupers
4. Helping people with 'items under the house' issues
5. Finding speedhackers
6. Finding field runner through-ers (if they exist of course)
7. Finding pvp scripters
8. Answering player pages regarding bugs
9. Watching pvp in order to get 'balancing' information to pass on to developers
10. Supporting EM's during EM events.

 

[anvira]

I generally find that the people who go around looking for unattended macroers or just to page on people period, are for the most part only doing it to get a rise out of having the GMs punish someone.

Like paging on someone is an accomplishment, a badge of honor or something.

well kudos to your meaningless existance I say.

Ironically usually I am too busy doing something productive and just ignoring what other idiots do. I play this game to do what I want (and I don't interfere with what other people do since there is no murder happening here)

 

[Kaleb]

Well... That's their fault, the game mechanics are there, and most players like Black Sun, does not even know that it is one of their messed up rules of theirs.

Problem here is they have not released a good,viable player handbook since uo:R being that EA has become so cheap they will not make another box for the stores. Like this upcoming UO:SA, DL only what BS it will have new landmass and should require a box so we can get our map!!

 

[Kaleb]

Couldn't disagree more. Training wrestling to 120 on the 20th character you have leveled is mega dull. Who cares if someone using a golem to wrestle, honestly?

Aren't there much more important things that GM's could be doing with their time than running around after people doing nothing but training a skill? I can name ten right here.

1. Finding Resource scripters
2. Finding Heartwood Quest scripters
3. Finding runic hammer dupers
4. Helping people with 'items under the house' issues
5. Finding speedhackers
6. Finding field runner through-ers (if they exist of course)
7. Finding pvp scripters
8. Answering player pages regarding bugs
9. Watching pvp in order to get 'balancing' information to pass on to developers
10. Supporting EM's during EM events.

I could not agree more, Scripting skill and skills only should be allowed so the 10's of thousands of pages everyday can be for whats on that list than on someone who is working Magery for the 100th time.

 

[Draxous]

So EAMythic should start banning all the players who train a combat skill on a golem too... right?

Yes. They should. Should have done it back when people started abusing it, even.

You should start not careing so much about what other people are doing. Who died and made you the authority over the right and wrong behind this?

I personally think training on a golem is fine. Therefore I also think if people want to creatively train their characters without the use of an illegal 3rd party program... then GREAT!

So I suggest a solution to our little dilema of differing opinions.

So, because this is a videogame and to each their own. I will continue to train my fighting skills on a golem because I want to and you go off and do it the manual way by fighting monsters. You mind your own damn business when it comes to me and what I do and I will do the same like-wise. By doing what I'm doing, I do not harm you or your "fun" in any way, therefore you have no right to tell me squat diddly dookie about how I should play this game.

Now I also suggest you apply this solution to every other player you'd happen to see in Ultima Online and all will rejoice in the lands and be merry.

Have a nice night! 8)

 

[D'Amavir]

I could not agree more, Scripting skill and skills only should be allowed so the 10's of thousands of pages everyday can be for whats on that list than on someone who is working Magery for the 100th time.

That's for High Five, not talk to the hand! heh

 

[Black Sun]

I do not agree with his/the GM's actions if you were attended macroing. Hopefully this is a lesson learned. Good Luck

Attended macroing or not, trapping creatures to use for skill gain at zero risk is against the rules.

So EAMythic should start banning all the players who train a combat skill on a golem too... right?

Your logic makes no freaking sense. If someone wants to be creative in how they level up their character... who the hell is anyone to insist that they be punished?

It's in the ToS. Read where someone posted above the part where it says that blocking animals/npc's/monters for the intent of gaining skill is an actionable offense. It's not my opinion, it's EA's rules. If someone is breaking the rules a ban is deserved.

Just in case you don't feel like reading the rest of the thread, I'll quote the ToS for you.

It is not legal to block NPC's or monsters with objects. The deliberate blocking of monsters or NPC’s with objects such as boats, crates, house tiles, invisible pets or invisible players with the intent to gain an unfair advantage, like skill gain or monster killing is considered an exploit and can result in account penalties. This also applies to “animal pens” or “Safe areas” in the game world. If the animal/monster cannot damage you, then you are abusing the system and will be asked to stop.

I've bolded the parts that are relevant. And in case you want to read the entire section I took this from it's http://support.ea.com/cgi-bin/ea.cf...W1hIG9ubGluZSBiYW5uYWJsZT8*&p_li=&p_topview=1

 

[D'Amavir]

It's in the ToS. Read where someone posted above the part where it says that blocking animals/npc's/monters for the intent of gaining skill is an actionable offense. It's not my opinion, it's EA's rules. If someone is breaking the rules a ban is deserved.

Just in case you don't feel like reading the rest of the thread, I'll quote the ToS for you.
I've bolded the parts that are relevant. And in case you want to read the entire section I took this from it's http://support.ea.com/cgi-bin/ea.cf...W1hIG9ubGluZSBiYW5uYWJsZT8*&p_li=&p_topview=1

I think most people understand that it IS a violation. Most of us are just saying that it SHOULDN'T be since there are much more important things they could be focusing on instead of some guy GM'ing a skill.

Is jaywalking illegal? Yes. Do you think a 300 man task force should be assigned to catch jaywalkers even if it means 300 men are taken off more important duties? Apparently so.

 

[Fink]

The Gamemaster said it isn't allowed to have pets in your house unless you are doing some type of zoo.

That'd be my defense. I've never gained any skill from the critters at my place, just the occasional fleece which I could have easily been outdone by camping Yew and shearing/killing sheep so they respawn afresh.

Makes me rethink doing my Gorillagram service, too. I like to leave (among other things) dozens of gorillas in friends' houses. I guess I could still do the gorillas, for reasons stated above; nothing like finding your home being ransacked by a pack of great apes.

One of my favourites was I left 100 bullfrogs in my friend's tower. He said the noise was enough to drive his normally pacifist smith to beating them all to death with a hammer. I've also done giant scorpions or spiders with interesting results. I might have to curb these, though. I wouldn't want to get someone a ban, temporary or otherwise.

 

[Black Sun]

I think most people understand that it IS a violation. Most of us are just saying that it SHOULDN'T be since there are much more important things they could be focusing on instead of some guy GM'ing a skill.

Is jaywalking illegal? Yes. Do you think a 300 man task force should be assigned to catch jaywalkers even if it means 300 men are taken off more important duties? Apparently so.

No, I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the rule, stupid or not. There's no sense in complaining about it, because it's not something that they're going to change.

As far as your 300 man taskforce to enforce jaywalking laws, no I don't think that GM's should be out looking for people with houses full of animals. But if you're breaking the rules, and someone pages on you, suck it up and move on with your life.

 

[D'Amavir]

No, I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the rule, stupid or not. There's no sense in complaining about it, because it's not something that they're going to change.

As far as your 300 man taskforce to enforce jaywalking laws, no I don't think that GM's should be out looking for people with houses full of animals. But if you're breaking the rules, and someone pages on you, suck it up and move on with your life.

You are right, nothing changes in UO because people on Stratics complain about it. Nope. No Trammel was created. Thank goodness. No stat loss was removed. Good deal. Nothing at all was ever changed because people complained about it. Nope. Nothing. Never ever. Nothing. Nu uh.

The 'you are breaking the rules so suck it up' mentality is fairly common. Especially from the *you know what's* that *you know what* for Stratics. Its much easier to tow the line than actually question stupid things. Especially if you want to one day sign one of the popular NDA's. Coincidence, I know.

I bet you guys were out in the streets telling suffragettes to suck it up, too, right?

 

[Crysta]

I bet you guys were out in the streets telling suffragettes to suck it up, too, right?

You do realize you're drawing a line between real life rights inequality and cheating in an online game, yes?

 

[D'Amavir]

You do realize you're drawing a line between real life rights inequality and cheating in an online game, yes?

Indeed. One is people sitting around saying "Its the law, right or wrong, so suck it up" and people sitting around saying "Its the law, right or wrong, so suck it up."

Pretty similar I must say. The examples may be different, but the mindset for both is the same. Just like psychologists determine that kids that pull the wings off flies usually grow up to abuse people and commit violent crimes. "You do realize you are comparing what happens to a fly to what happens to a human, yes?"

 

[Crysta]

Alright.. might as well play your game here..

If you want to draw that completely baseless comparison, i'll draw a different one I can back impressively in just as ephemerally a way as you did with yours.

Cheating is a practice most people disagree with, but you think is alright. Slavery was a practice most people disagreed with, but slavers thought was alright. Therefore, you are no better than a slave trader.

I can come up wiht a few thousand more with reasons for each of them if you want.. it still doesn't make any of them right. Also doesn't make cheating right.

 

[D'Amavir]

Alright.. might as well play your game here..

If you want to draw that completely baseless comparison, i'll draw a different one I can back impressively in just as ephemerally a way as you did with yours.

Cheating is a practice most people disagree with, but you think is alright. Slavery was a practice most people disagreed with, but slavers thought was alright. Therefore, you are no better than a slave trader.

Actually, you use an example that I could have used but knew I would get flamed and banned for.

"Slavery is legal, suck it up". If more people were like you, that's how things would be.

If you don't see the difference between a crime that harms others and a victimless crime, I hope you never get into any position of authority.

Do I support bad things that hurt other people? No. Do I think that things that don't hurt other people shouldn't be the focus of 'law enforcement', be they cops or GM's? Indeed.

 

[Crysta]

Do I support bad things that hurt other people? No. Do I think that things that don't hurt other people shouldn't be the focus of 'law enforcement', be they cops or GM's? Indeed.

It does hurt others though.. it forces other people to have to do the same at the risk fo their account to compete, most of which don't because they agree with the mindset that it's cheating. "So just make it legal so it doesn't cause a problem", yes? Even then, only the most hardcore into it would go out of their way to do it constantly, leaving the rest that simply don't have such an opportunity in the dust.Not to mention that when there's nothing to work for the human psirit diminishes and looks for other sources of fulfillment (IE people will quit if there's nothing to work for).


Two things to ask of you:
1) Name a pay to play game where scripting is open-heartedly allowed and encouraged as a playstyle. If it really isn't cheating, there should be at least some example somewhere.
2) If you despise how the game plays and has played since it started so damned much, why do you still play? And complain?

 

[Bomb Bloke]

According to the OP, he wasn't using the creatures for skill gain, but was instead using the house as a stable. The final paragraph of the rule seems to allow this.

I suppose you could call the rules ambiguous.

I suppose you could call a lot of UO's rules ambiguous.

It's no wonder you get an entirely different response from each GM.

 

[shanshu]

victimless crime

People are just stupid. I give up on most of you.

 

[D'Amavir]

It does hurt others though.. it forces other people to have to do the same at the risk fo their account to compete,

So you are admitting to scripting skill gain? Since its been going on for years, there is no other way for you to compete with people that do it without doing it yourself. Right?

most of which don't because they agree with the mindset that it's cheating. "So just make it legal so it doesn't cause a problem", yes? Even then, only the most hardcore into it would go out of their way to do it constantly, leaving the rest that simply don't have such an opportunity in the dust.

Again, you have been unable to GM/Legendary a skill without scripting it? I can show you how if you would like so you don't have to resort to cheating to compete.

Not to mention that when there's nothing to work for the human psirit diminishes and looks for other sources of fulfillment (IE people will quit if there's nothing to work for).

If fulfillment for you is GM'ing the same skill over and over for 11 years, then I hope you enjoy that. For me, fulfillment is logging into the game and having fun.

Two things to ask of you:
1) Name a pay to play game where scripting is open-heartedly allowed and encouraged as a playstyle.

Not sure. I play UO.

2) If you despise how the game plays and has played since it started so damned much, why do you still play? And complain?

Seems like you are the one complaining. You just complained that you had to resort to cheating to gain skills because you couldn't compete with other people that did. Not me. I compete just fine with skills I manually trained. Again, I can show you how to manually work skills if you would like.

Honestly, if you go out and pvp with a 7XGM or 6XLeg character that you trained manually and you can't compete with another 7XGM or 6XLeg character that scripted theirs, I don't know what to tell you really. Maybe its you?