Guilds that are more than gaming guilds

[Barrakketh]

I read an article about mmorpgs and their popularity , and that some in the entertainment business felt that mmo's would be a failure because they only took away from real life goals.

I heard that UO inspired many guild leaders to create a business out of their guilds , creating web sites that sells gold and game items , game property , and various game guides or websites , linking mmo's to real life creating links to a virtual economy . Some of the guilds mentioned were DEI , HOT , LLTS , PVP , among others.

Do you think players turning their mmo's time into financial adventures has contributed to the success of some mmo's including UO? How much of a games success is dependent on the ability of players to come together and create a business around it ?

 

[Specialshoes]

This post might be a little far into the intellectual realms for this board. No where in it do you mention Nerf this, fix that, or I want.

But... being as you posted a good question that seems to try to bring about a dialog.

I think this has had both a negative and positive influence on the success of UO. As for other games I don't really know to much about outside influences or businesses affecting the game.

On one hand for UO it has made services available for people to get that "template" together that they enjoy. But the negative effect is that it has hurt the virtual economy and hurt the play experience by removing some of the exploration value.

 

[UOKaiser]

I read an article about mmorpgs and their popularity , and that some in the entertainment business felt that mmo's would be a failure because they only took away from real life goals.

I heard that UO inspired many guild leaders to create a business out of their guilds , creating web sites that sells gold and game items , game property , and various game guides or websites , linking mmo's to real life creating links to a virtual economy . Some of the guilds mentioned were DEI , HOT , LLTS , PVP , among others.

Do you think players turning their mmo's time into financial adventures has contributed to the success of some mmo's including UO? How much of a games success is dependent on the ability of players to come together and create a business around it ?

Theres so much conversation to go with this. But the short answer based on my opinion is yes. It created the popularity that flocked players to create multitudes of accounts for the purpose of finanacial income by doing something you enjoy instead of a grinding 9-5 job. The internet gold rush you can say just like the possibilities of making money with webpages etc.. that brought enterpreneurs to it that brought all these advertisement into everything, companies people all looking to make money. The rares markets to hold on to something of value. To touch on a few things so yes money makes the world go round this includes games.

 

[Harlequin]

In short, my opinion is yes, RMT and other avenues like advertising to generate income does contribute to the success of MMOs.

But it may not be as simple as that. At the most basic level, a webpage that has income generating methods like advertising means the webmaster can likely offset (partially or totally) the costs of the domain/web hosting. Successful websites can even turn it into something profitable.

If fans don't have to worry about costs of running a site, more fans would do so. More fansites = more exposure to the game and free avertising.



Then there are the RMT sites that directly sell or facilitates the sale of in-game items for real money. This really bloomed with the coming of UO/ebay/paypal. The auction fan sites before the ebay ban mainly dealt with in-game gold transactions and brokering services.

I think this is good and healthy (it sorta gives a value to the time you spend playing a game). The people at Origin were so pleased that they actually commented that exchange rate for UO gold is better than certain countries.

Unfortunately, greed is ugly and this can also easily turn unhealthy once people start cheating to gain those sell-able resources, or even forming guilds to hog a spawn 24/7, block the spawn, or actively attacking other players to deny them of the resource.

For it to remain healthy, there must be some checks in place to ensure cheats/frauds/monopolies like those above do not occur. Blocking RMT totally so that the devs need not worry about the problems only means that a blackmarket will form...which will be another discussion entirely.

As to the people in the entertainment business that feels that "mmo's would be a failure because they only took away from real life goals", unfortunately, I think the traditional methods of entertainment will lose even more ground to these newer forms of entertainment. Just like TV killed the radio, and the internet killed TV.

 

[Canucklehead73]

I guess it all depends on the players involved, me personally I dislike RL, especially commercialism or sales, intruding on my gaming after a hard days work in RL selling stuff... So having to deal with players who seem to be "working" UO (or other games) rather than playing pretty much irk me.

As for helping the game itself well as I said it depends on the people, alot of games are imposing time consuming grinds, and a lot of people will relish being able to accelerate the time needed to become successful in-game.

And exposure can be a good thing.... Or not... KR world-wide release for example. So I guess I would have to say yes and no! lol i know i know.

Making money always seems to allow for making money to become the priority, instead of the game's success, so I guess that would always be an issue imho.

 

[Tuferon]

This post might be a little far into the intellectual realms for this board. No where in it do you mention Nerf this, fix that, or I want.

But... being as you posted a good question that seems to try to bring about a dialog.

I think this has had both a negative and positive influence on the success of UO. As for other games I don't really know to much about outside influences or businesses affecting the game.

On one hand for UO it has made services available for people to get that "template" together that they enjoy. But the negative effect is that it has hurt the virtual economy and hurt the play experience by removing some of the exploration value.

Well put

 

[Schuyler Bain]

In short, my opinion is yes, RMT and other avenues like advertising to generate income does contribute to the success of MMOs.

But it may that be as simple as that. At the most basic level, a webpage that has income generating methods like advertising means the webmaster can likely offset (partially or totally) the costs of the domain/web hosting. Successful websites can even turn it into something profitable.

If fans don't have to worry about costs of running a site, more fans would do so. More fansites = more exposure to the game and free avertising.



Then there are the RMT sites that directly sell or facilitates the sale of in-game items for real money. This really bloomed with the coming of UO/ebay/paypal. The auction fan sites before the ebay ban mainly dealt with in-game gold transactions and brokering services.

I think this is good and healthy (it sorta gives a value to the time you spend playing a game). The people at Origin were so pleased that they actually commented that exchange rate for UO gold is better than certain countries.

Unfortuantely, greed is ugly and this can also easily turn unhealthy once people start cheating to gain those sell-able resources, or even forming guilds to hog a spawn 24/7, block the spawn, or actively attacking other players to deny them of the resource.

For it to remain healthy, there must be some checks in place to ensure cheats/frauds/monopolies like those above do not occur. Blocking RMT totally so that the devs need not worry about the problems only means that a blackmarket will form...which will be another discussion entirely.

As to the people in the entertainment business that feels that "mmo's would be a failure because they only took away from real life goals", unfortunately, I think the traditional methods of entertainment will lose even more ground to these newer forms of entertainment. Just like TV killed the radio, and the internet is killing TV.

/agree

Well said Harlequin!

 

[Uriah Heep]

This post might be a little far into the intellectual realms for this board. No where in it do you mention Nerf this, fix that, or I want.

LOL

Good one!

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

If I'm interpreting your question correctly, I would surmise the answer is: It has not contributed at all to the success of such games.

I don't think enough people have used the game in that manner to really effect numbers. I know I haven't used the game in that manner.

Further, the more I think about it, the trading of RL and in-game things (money for accounts, or money for gold, or money for items, etc.), has arguably contributed to cheating and other nastiness. Which hurts most players, and turns those hurt off to the game.

Off-hand I'd suggest that your proposition has less empirical support than the exact opposite proposition.

But that's just off-hand.

-Galen's player

 

[Michael Wolf]

[qoute]Do you think players turning their mmo's time into financial adventures has contributed to the success of some mmo's including UO? How much of a games success is dependent on the ability of players to come together and create a business around it ?[/quote]

Yes, but minimally so. On a percentage I'd say the players or guilds actually making real cash from playing games, especially enough to consider it an income, is really a low number. The MMO which has boasted the highest subscription base by far for years now is WOW and although I'm sure some real world trading exists it's not allowed so it definitely not keeping that game up and running.

By far the predominate player of MMO's plays for entertainment. I think one aspect of playing MMO's that that article did not take into account is the pure $/time entertainment value of MMO's. The average MMO charges about $15 per month to play. For that price you can spend every available minute of "entertainment" time you can spare playing that game. What other entertainment venue offers that low of a cost. Movies are up to $10 to $12 for a ticket and for that you get at the most 3 hours of entertainment, usually 1.5 to 2 hours.

 

[Barrakketh]

If I'm interpreting your question correctly, I would surmise the answer is: It has not contributed at all to the success of such games.

I don't think enough people have used the game in that manner to really effect numbers. I know I haven't used the game in that manner.

Explain players that have multiple accounts, that have several BoD account that have nothing but tailors and blacksmiths on them that they use to do nothing else but farm bods. Take the gold from those sales and sell it on a website to players buying gold.

 

[Michael Wolf]

Explain players that have multiple accounts , players that have several BoD account that have nothing but tailors and blacksmiths on them that they use to do nothing else but farm bods ?

Many players have BOD accounts simply to try to increase the chances of getting good BOD's. I personally run spare accounts for housing, have for many years now, since the housing rules changed and I had a need to place a new house. When BOD's were first introduced I ran every spare char slot I had with a low level smith so I could log them all in once an hour and get extra BOD's. Actually a pretty common practice among any smith or I imagine tailors too, just to increase the chances of getting good BOD's.

 

[Barrakketh]

Many players have BOD accounts simply to try to increase the chances of getting good BOD's. I personally run spare accounts for housing, have for many years now, since the housing rules changed and I had a need to place a new house. When BOD's were first introduced I ran every spare char slot I had with a low level smith so I could log them all in once an hour and get extra BOD's. Actually a pretty common practice among any smith or I imagine tailors too, just to increase the chances of getting good BOD's.

Well did you have 10 accounts with all of the character slots tailors and blacksmiths ?
Did you have a website that sold the gold the bod vendors made ?

 

[Barrakketh]

If I'm interpreting your question correctly, I would surmise the answer is: It has not contributed at all to the success of such games.

I don't think enough people have used the game in that manner to really effect numbers. I know I haven't used the game in that manner.

Further, the more I think about it, the trading of RL and in-game things (money for accounts, or money for gold, or money for items, etc.), has arguably contributed to cheating and other nastiness. Which hurts most players, and turns those hurt off to the game.

Off-hand I'd suggest that your proposition has less empirical support than the exact opposite proposition.

But that's just off-hand.

-Galen's player

Consider how a player could use their guild as a resource , how this could maintain subscription levels that may otherwise drop off.

 

[Michael Wolf]

Well did you have 10 accounts with all of the character slots tailors and blacksmiths ?
Did you have a website that sold the gold the bod vendors made ?

No, and for one I never said some players don't cheat. Your original statement was, "Explain players that have multiple accounts, that have several BoD account that have nothing but tailors and blacksmiths on them that they use to do nothing else but farm bods."

I did that. I'm a legit player, don't sell gold or anything else for real cash, and fit your criteria of having multiple accounts and have at one time run several BOD collectors and would log in with them for nothing else than to collect BOD's.

In the early days of UO I ran a warrior, ranger, mage and smith, the smith supplied the others, it was the money maker. So when BOD's came out the first reaction of many was to collect as many as possible, whether you were a legit player or not. Crafters were still very viable characters back then.

 

[Barrakketh]

No, and for one I never said some players don't cheat. Your original statement was, "Explain players that have multiple accounts, that have several BoD account that have nothing but tailors and blacksmiths on them that they use to do nothing else but farm bods."

Its not cheating , but what you have is an example how the prospect of making money from selling gold created an increase in subscriptions to the game.

 

[JC the Builder]

Can you give a link to that article? Or the name of which website you saw it on?

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Consider how a player could use their guild as a resource , how this could maintain subscription levels that may otherwise drop off.

I just wrote a reply then realized I might have misunderstood you.

Did you mean to talk about players who would have quit, due to lack of money or something like that, but their "business guilds" were able to carry them for awhile, paying their subscription fees for them, kind of like wages?

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Explain players that have multiple accounts, that have several BoD account that have nothing but tailors and blacksmiths on them that they use to do nothing else but farm bods. Take the gold from those sales and sell it on a website to players buying gold.

I know of some players who maintain crafting-only second (or third) accounts who never turn their playing into a business that they make RL, out-of-game money from.

I guess my point is that I don't think these people have enough of a presence in the game that you could say they've contributed to its success.

I could easily, however, be wrong.

I am starting, for example, to realize that I've vastly under-estimated the amount of scripting that's out there. (Not the amount of scripters, just the amount of scripting, which is a different thing.) So I could be under-estimating the amount of people making RL profits off of the game too.

-Galen's player

 

[CatLord]

Welcome to the Club...

 

[Barrakketh]

I am starting, for example, to realize that I've vastly under-estimated the amount of scripting that's out there. (Not the amount of scripters, just the amount of scripting, which is a different thing.) So I could be under-estimating the amount of people making RL profits off of the game too.

-Galen's player

When I played on Atlantic server players regularly discussed using scripts , writing scripts and trading scripts , as well as game exploits. Also these same players payed for their accounts by selling gold and game codes. At times I felt as though I was one of the few players that didnt use scripts. I sometimes wondered how many of these people would pay for a subscription to UO if there was no way to make money on playing it.

 

[Cal Hurst]

I'm only here to mention one thing.

I was in DEI. In no way, shape, or form, was DEI ever turned into a business organization. DEI was founded by the now developer Sakkarah, and was a guild made of people who just wanted to play the game. No where, in any point in my time in DEI, was there ever any talk of "business" or selling things for real life cash as part of a guild purpose. I was part of council. I think to include DEI in the list of guilds alongside HOT and LLTS, specifically, is an insult to the people who were part of DEI.

DEI was never a business guild. Remove them from your list.

 

[Chaosy]

When you start a thread that slanders well-established guilds that have kept the game going for so long, please either list the source article or don't post at all.

 

[Barrakketh]

I'm only here to mention one thing.

I was in DEI. In no way, shape, or form, was DEI ever turned into a business organization. DEI was founded by the now developer Sakkarah, and was a guild made of people who just wanted to play the game. No where, in any point in my time in DEI, was there ever any talk of "business" or selling things for real life cash as part of a guild purpose. I was part of council. I think to include DEI in the list of guilds alongside HOT and LLTS, specifically, is an insult to the people who were part of DEI.

DEI was never a business guild. Remove them from your list.

I was in all of those guilds at one time or another , I believe Sak was associated with UO Treasures Hunters as well as UO Rares and she was also a Tradespot broker. I was in DEI and I spent a lot of time in their teamspeak channels.I still have the link to the last guild website.http://uotreasurehunters.com/phpDEI/portal.php DEI was by far the best of the 4 guilds listed and Sak was the very best GM I played UO with.

BTW buying and selling gold and game items aka virtual property is not prohibited , and I certainly respect and commend those that had the ingenuity to develop an income along with their entertainment.

 

[Barrakketh]

When you start a thread that slanders well-established guilds that have kept the game going for so long, please either list the source article or don't post at all.

The article was from an online gaming magazine which I first read in 2004 with the release of World of Warcraft , and the subject was about people spending time playing mmo's persuing virtual goals as opposed to real life ones and how mmo's would fail, which I didnt book mark . If you are interested in reading about this subject you can google it, use terms like , mmorpg's , real life , business , virtual economy , achievements , etc. you will get about 50 web sites or more that have some sort of discussion about this. I brought the subject up for discussion because as stated the topic was about the expected failure of mmo's , that was 4 years ago and about 30 new mmo's ago and more mmo's being planned.

What are you calling slander ?

Now going back to the OP , do you think these guilds and guilds like them that have these virtual business are part of what keeps UO viable over the years ?

 

[Chaosy]

The article was from an online gaming magazine which I first read in 2004 with the release of World of Warcraft , and the subject was about people spending time playing mmo's persuing virtual goals as opposed to real life ones and how mmo's would fail, which I didnt book mark . If you are interested in reading about this subject you can google it, use terms like , mmorpg's , real life , business , virtual economy , achievements , etc. you will get about 50 web sites or more that have some sort of discussion about this. I brought the subject up for discussion because as stated the topic was about the expected failure of mmo's , that was 4 years ago and about 30 new mmo's ago and more mmo's being planned.

What are you calling slander ?

Now going back to the OP , do you think these guilds and guilds like them that have these virtual business are part of what keeps UO viable over the years ?

No, it is slander. Either you bring up the topic as stated with references or you DO NOT MENTION GUILDS. By stating specific guild names, you are only providing trolls with reasons to pester the guilds you listed with false accusations. How would you feel if you were the GM or a council member in a guild and some random person mentions the only reason why you run a guild is to make a business and profit from it?

If you were interested in starting a discussion on the issue, you would not have specified guilds OR you would have posted the original article. I do not care enough to look up the article using my own time, but I do care enough that you listed guilds that I either respect or have been in without you providing any bit of proof on what you posted.

Furthermore, you mention you were a member of DEI and have known Sakkarah who is one of our current devs. I'm surprised you don't know better. The uotreasurehunters website IN NO WAY MADE ANY PROFIT. There was nothing being sold on the site and the entire purpose of people going there was to learn about various aspects of UO. To assume she was associated with UO Rares is a little too much, and while she was a broker, you need to keep in mind a broker then is vastly different than what a broker is now. Tradespot brokers were available to broker trades between players for in-game currency. I fail to see how this equates to making a profit.

Your entire original post is an insult to the guilds you listed.

 

[Cal Hurst]

Your post was about how these people make their guilds into "more than just gaming guilds," yet you specifically point out that Sakkarah had been involved in something OTHER THAN DEI which is where she did that work. So, in essence, you have just proven yourself wrong. While she may have had a hand in running uo treasure hunters or what have you (which was nonprofit), and she was the GM of DEI, the two never crossed.

She brokered for gold, not cash. And the gold that she "gained" from brokering? She ran events with and gave out as prizes to participants. She didn't pay her rent with it. She didn't buy a Big Mac with it. She gave it back.

Check your facts before you spew misinformation.

 

[Barrakketh]

Your post was about how these people make their guilds into "more than just gaming guilds," yet you specifically point out that Sakkarah had been involved in something OTHER THAN DEI which is where she did that work. So, in essence, you have just proven yourself wrong. While she may have had a hand in running uo treasure hunters or what have you (which was nonprofit), and she was the GM of DEI, the two never crossed.
She brokered for gold, not cash. And the gold that she "gained" from brokering? She ran events with and gave out as prizes to participants. She didn't pay her rent with it. She didn't buy a Big Mac with it. She gave it back.
Check your facts before you spew misinformation.

The original website that I and the other guild members of DEI used for our forums had links to sites with items for sale and gold and the current site that is still up has those links.
In teamspeak members as well as guild officers often commented on how much gold they had sold , would have to break from champ spawning to make gold deliveries to their customers and refer to how much money they made selling gold , and have discussions about the price of gold and how much they sold it for.

 

[Chaosy]

Well as I understand sak ran uotreasurehunter which is herehttp://www.uotreasurehunters.com/. The original website that I and the other guild members of DEI used for our forums had links to sites with items for sale and gold.
In teamspeak members as well as guild officers often commented on how much gold they had sold , would have to break from champ spawning to make gold deliveries to their customers and refer to how much money they made selling gold , and have discussions about the price of gold and how much they sold it for.

So in other words, you're saying you pretty much took what a few people said over TeamSpeak (which may or may not be true, as we all know people in UO don't exaggerate about stuff like that) and applied it to the entire guild? What does this have to do with other members and more specifically the guild leader? Yeah, sounds like a solid argument for "UO inspired many guild leaders to create a business out of their guilds."

And linking to a website with sites that sold virtual items for gold really sounds like some master plan to make money. Have you ever considered that it could just be coincidental? Or perhaps that the UO community is only so big with so many websites that could be linked to? Or perhaps that some websites sell services or items to help pay for the maintenance of the website?

While there are individuals out there looking to turn a profit from virtual item sales, I can assure you that the actions of any individual should not reflect on a guild as a whole; and listing specific guilds certainly does nothing but damage the reputation of the guilds and the members in said guilds especially when the guilds you listed are far removed from the problem.

 

[Barrakketh]

So in other words, you're saying you pretty much took what a few people said over TeamSpeak (which may or may not be true, as we all know people in UO don't exaggerate about stuff like that) and applied it to the entire guild? What does this have to do with other members and more specifically the guild leader? Yeah, sounds like a solid argument for "UO inspired many guild leaders to create a business out of their guilds."

And linking to a website with sites that sold virtual items for gold really sounds like some master plan to make money. Have you ever considered that it could just be coincidental? Or perhaps that the UO community is only so big with so many websites that could be linked to? Or perhaps that some websites sell services or items to help pay for the maintenance of the website?

While there are individuals out there looking to turn a profit from virtual item sales, I can assure you that the actions of any individual should not reflect on a guild as a whole; and listing specific guilds certainly does nothing but damage the reputation of the guilds and the members in said guilds especially when the guilds you listed are far removed from the problem.

Not a few people , most of the members , there was no reason to lie , selling gold and items in UO is not prohibited if anything it is a positive and I know some of the people they sold gold to.
Several of the guild members and officers of these guilds said that it was an income.All the guilds listed I was a member of and there were more than a few individuals involved. These facts are from my own experience I have no issue with players selling gold and items for profit or running a website that sells gold or links to them and I commend them for their ingenuity and arguably aiding in the success of a game.

The topic is how these outside business ventures may contribute to the success of a game please stay to the topic.

 

[Chaosy]

Not a few people , most of the members , there was no reason to lie , selling gold and items in UO is not prohibited and I know some of the people they sold gold to.
Several of the guild members and officers of these guilds said that it was an income.All the guilds listed I was a member of and there were more than a few individuals involved.
These facts are from my own experience I have no issue with players selling gold and items for profit or running a website that sells gold or links to them and I commend them for their ingenuity and arguably aiding in the success of a game.

The topic is how these outside business ventures may contribute to the success of a game please stay to the topic.

Sorry, but to me the topic was solely raised to insult the guilds you listed. You must have had a different personal experience from the rest of the members of these guilds.

 

[Barrakketh]

Sorry, but to me the topic was solely raised to insult the guilds you listed. You must have had a different personal experience from the rest of the members of these guilds.

If you have an issue with selling gold and items thats just your opinion, some people can argue that it is a positve thing for a game and to imply it as an insult looks to me as attempt to highjack the topic.

 

[JC the Builder]

I am still waiting for a link to this article.

 

[Barrakketh]

I am still waiting for a link to this article.

Your answer is in a reply on this thread.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Sorry, but to me the topic was solely raised to insult the guilds you listed. You must have had a different personal experience from the rest of the members of these guilds.

You should work on thickening your skin, especially as a mod...la