Slayer Talismans

[Loral]

Ok so I am recently returned and just read that these do not effect spells. I am curious why they added slayer spellbooks after seeing a need to balance melee slayers, then gave another slayer slot to melee but not casters.

Is this a bug thats being fixed or what? I am generally enjoying being back these last two months but I don't understand why they would go a step backwards in PvM balance.

 

[Old Man of UO]

This isn't a bug and is working as it was intended. The way I look at it, this just "balances" the slayer spell books that mages have. After all, slayer spell books work on all offensive spells AND summons. I certainly don't see that as a weakness.

And there is only one super slayer talisman (Conjurer's Trinket) which is rare and doesn't spawn any more, yet spell books can have every slayer and super slayer type except the fey slayer (which isn't on a talisman either).

 

[Harlequin]

This isn't a bug and is working as it was intended. The way I look at it, this just "balances" the slayer spell books that mages have. After all, slayer spell books work on all offensive spells AND summons. I certainly don't see that as a weakness.

And there is only one super slayer talisman (Conjurer's Trinket) which is rare and doesn't spawn any more, yet spell books can have every slayer and super slayer type except the fey slayer (which isn't on a talisman either).

I never tested this, do you mean the slayer property on weapons do not work on summons? Or are you saying that summons inherit the slayer properties if you have a slayer spellbook?

Though I do think that slayer talismans like beetle/bird/bear/vermin slayers should work for spells too.

 

[Uthar Pendragon]

Slayer spellbooks are a balance for the slayer weapons that everyone has access to, not a balance for the talismans.

 

[Mistura]

This isn't a bug and is working as it was intended. The way I look at it, this just "balances" the slayer spell books that mages have. After all, slayer spell books work on all offensive spells AND summons. I certainly don't see that as a weakness.

And there is only one super slayer talisman (Conjurer's Trinket) which is rare and doesn't spawn any more, yet spell books can have every slayer and super slayer type except the fey slayer (which isn't on a talisman either).

I think your a wee bit mis informed on this. If you are saying that the summons like evs benefit from extra damage due to being cast with slayer book, this is not the case. Also, I would class Vermin Slayer Tali as a kind of superslayer as it covers more than just one variety of creature and is extremely handy for a certain spawn.

I agree with the above comments that talismen should definitely work for mages as well as dexers.

 

[RichDC]

I think your a wee bit mis informed on this. If you are saying that the summons like evs benefit from extra damage due to being cast with slayer book, this is not the case. Also, I would class Vermin Slayer Tali as a kind of superslayer as it covers more than just one variety of creature and is extremely handy for a certain spawn.

I agree with the above comments that talismen should definitely work for mages as well as dexers.

Especially as Area hits(whirlwind for example) are affected by slayers, yet area necro spells arent.

On that one how come necro spells in general arent affected by slayer books>?

 

[Connor_Graham]

On that one how come necro spells in general arent affected by slayer books>?

Because the slayer books are Magery books and not Necro books. They work on Magery spells.

 

[Anon McDougle]

and why dont other books get mods or slayer properties?

IE chiv necro etc etc

 

[Stratic Fanatic]

and why dont other books get mods or slayer properties?

IE chiv necro etc etc

I think the other casting skills are considered complimentary skills.

How many SW, chiv, or necros you know that dont have magery or a weapon skill?

I could only see it being useful for mules/specialty chars. that have all there other skills in crafting/thieving, etc..

 

[Mistura]

and why dont other books get mods or slayer properties?

IE chiv necro etc etc

I see no reason why Necro books shouldn't benefit from the exact same properties as Mage books, when crafted by a player using Inscription.

As for the rest of the books, such as Chivalry, they are not crafted by players are they? As far as I know you just buy from NPC so they would never benefit from additional properites in the way mage books do.

Also, for things like bushido and ninja you would never be holding the book anyway so it wouldn't be relevant.

 

[Old Man of UO]

I think your a wee bit mis informed on this. If you are saying that the summons like evs benefit from extra damage due to being cast with slayer book, this is not the case. Also, I would class Vermin Slayer Tali as a kind of superslayer as it covers more than just one variety of creature and is extremely handy for a certain spawn.

I agree with the above comments that talismen should definitely work for mages as well as dexers.

You could be right about the EV's not getting extra damage for slayer books, but I'd swear they do extra samage against miasma... I am going to have to go test that. It might be that I am just assuming they are doing extra and never paid close attention.

As far as the vermin slayer, not exactly what I'd call a super slayer, but okay since there just isn't an equivalent in spell books. And I forgot about the cold and fire slayers on talismans since those are super slayers. But there aren't demon slayer talismans, reptile slayers, etc. I see those as being the equivalent to mage spell books and the differences are the way they should be and working correctly. I vote to leave it alone.

 

[RichDC]

You could be right about the EV's not getting extra damage for slayer books, but I'd swear they do extra samage against miasma... I am going to have to go test that. It might be that I am just assuming they are doing extra and never paid close attention.

As far as the vermin slayer, not exactly what I'd call a super slayer, but okay since there just isn't an equivalent in spell books. And I forgot about the cold and fire slayers on talismans since those are super slayers. But there aren't demon slayer talismans, reptile slayers, etc. I see those as being the equivalent to mage spell books and the differences are the way they should be and working correctly. I vote to leave it alone.

Only direct damage is affected by slayers(so holy light isnt for chiv nor are summons).

I would consider vermin to be a super slayer as it affects all monsters in that category(not just ratmen, slimes etc)

 

[Mistura]

But there aren't demon slayer talismans, reptile slayers, etc. I see those as being the equivalent to mage spell books and the differences are the way they should be and working correctly. I vote to leave it alone

Yes the Elemental, Demon, Repond and Arachnid slayer are not available in talisman form but they are available as weapons.

So why is it warriors should get the benefit from a different set of slayer tali's and not mages?

 

[RichDC]

Yes the Elemental, Demon, Repond and Arachnid slayer are not available in talisman form but they are available as weapons.

So why is it warriors should get the benefit from a different set of slayer tali's and not mages?

Its not that they have a different set thats the problem per se, i mean if you think about it the only talis of use that a mage doesnt have is Fey, Beetle and bird.

The problem in my eyes is that Dexxers can use Doouble slayer by using say a Demon slayer weap and ice slayer tali(ice fiends) or Vermin slayer and Repond(all rat champ).

 

[Mistura]

Yup there is that.

I just think in general, with how powerful dexers are these days, its crazy to leave mages out of something like the slayer talis. Theres just no good reason for it that I can think of!

 

[Old Man of UO]

Yup there is that.

I just think in general, with how powerful dexers are these days, its crazy to leave mages out of something like the slayer talis. Theres just no good reason for it that I can think of!

Most mages I know don't stand in as a tank to take direct damage, but prefer to stand out of the line of fire with their 100% LRC +12MR suits, and cast from the safety of distance. It's a different play style that has pluses and minuses, just like warriors (who take most of the damage), tamers, etc. I think it's completely fair.

 

[aoLOLita]

Because the slayer books are Magery books and not Necro books. They work on Magery spells.

Are you sure about that?? Seems when I equip the appropriate super slayer book, my necro Wither spell does way more damage than my Scrappers - Wither after all is the only necro spell that SDI applies to ...

Also, I thought my WoD did more damage when the appropriate Slayer book was equipped?

 

[Borric]

Yup there is that.

I just think in general, with how powerful dexers are these days, its crazy to leave mages out of something like the slayer talis. Theres just no good reason for it that I can think of!

Most mages I know don't stand in as a tank to take direct damage, but prefer to stand out of the line of fire with their 100% LRC +12MR suits, and cast from the safety of distance. It's a different play style that has pluses and minuses, just like warriors (who take most of the damage), tamers, etc. I think it's completely fair.

At the start, I was for talis working for mages. You have flipped me good sir! Thats the best argument for them to NOT work for mages I have read.

Thanks,
Borric

 

[Loral]

This is from UO guide for those who don't know. Its not just the general availability of slayers and super slayers, its the fact that they stack that is an issue for me.

"Talisman Slayers do not affect spells. The Damage Increase from both talisman-based and instrument/spellbook/weapon-based forms is cumulative, or stacks, subject to the 300% cap."

 

[hen]

They're great for someone who shuns chiv or those silly skills from places that don't fit UO lore.

My vermin talisman and repond slayer help me try to solo that damn rat fort in Ice dungeon. I always die though.

 

[Harlequin]

Most mages I know don't stand in as a tank to take direct damage, but prefer to stand out of the line of fire with their 100% LRC +12MR suits, and cast from the safety of distance. It's a different play style that has pluses and minuses, just like warriors (who take most of the damage), tamers, etc. I think it's completely fair.

But the talisman works for archers, who also avoid tanking, preferring to stand out of the line of fire and shoot from the safety of distance...

 

[Mistura]

Most mages I know don't stand in as a tank to take direct damage, but prefer to stand out of the line of fire with their 100% LRC +12MR suits, and cast from the safety of distance. It's a different play style that has pluses and minuses, just like warriors (who take most of the damage), tamers, etc. I think it's completely fair.

But the talisman works for archers, who also avoid tanking, preferring to stand out of the line of fire and shoot from the safety of distance...

Yip, good point Harlequin.

I mean c'mon, dexers and archers are infinitely more powerful than mages in PvM. Thats never gonna change with or without slayer talismen.

Who's ever heard of a solo mage doing one of the peerless?

Why are we not allowing mages to use slayer talismen? Is it because we're scared they will become overpowered in PvM??

I'm still yet to hear a viable argument as to why mages can't benefit from slayer talismen...

 

[RichDC]

Are you sure about that?? Seems when I equip the appropriate super slayer book, my necro Wither spell does way more damage than my Scrappers - Wither after all is the only necro spell that SDI applies to ...

Also, I thought my WoD did more damage when the appropriate Slayer book was equipped?

Complete misconception.

Wither is 100% NOT affected by Slayers...Nor is WOD(oh and poison strike is also affected by SDI)

 

[Old Man of UO]

But the talisman works for archers, who also avoid tanking, preferring to stand out of the line of fire and shoot from the safety of distance...

This part I did not know. I thought Talisman only worked for melee... so it also works for archery?

I've seen more than one mage solo Doom with Swords of Prosperity, but haven't been in peerless dungeons enough to know if it can be done. I suspect with discord or other appropriate skill set it can be done. Still, that's not a good way to judge a skill... I have a Sampire and can't solo any peerless, let alone Doom.

 

[aoLOLita]

Complete misconception.

Wither is 100% NOT affected by Slayers...Nor is WOD(oh and poison strike is also affected by SDI)

Good to know - ty! Now I can equip the Pyros saff and VerminSlayer talisman (for Baracoon spawn) or Undead Talisman (all else) to maximize kills at the lower levels of Spawn - then back to Scrappers & shield.

 

[RichDC]

Good to know - ty! Now I can equip the Pyros saff and VerminSlayer talisman (for Baracoon spawn) or Undead Talisman (all else) to maximize kills at the lower levels of Spawn - then back to Scrappers & shield.

Id suggest (for vermin) using a 30%SDI spellbook all the way to barry.

For the undead, stick with the conjurers grimoire and 2n level begin with the meteor swarms.

 

[Mistura]

This part I did not know. I thought Talisman only worked for melee... so it also works for archery?

I've seen more than one mage solo Doom with Swords of Prosperity, but haven't been in peerless dungeons enough to know if it can be done. I suspect with discord or other appropriate skill set it can be done. Still, that's not a good way to judge a skill... I have a Sampire and can't solo any peerless, let alone Doom.

So would you not agree that mages should also benefit from slayer talismen?

 

[Old Man of UO]

So would you not agree that mages should also benefit from slayer talismen?

Nope... magery is a great all around skill with summons, direct damage spells and pretty darn good defensive spells. It already has the player made scrappers with slayer mods on it, and can't make talismans. The scrapper is already has much better modifier bonus that any talisman. I think it is pretty well balanced the way spell books and talismans work now.

If anything, Slayers (of all types) should work with Bards... they are the most neglected of all PvM skills.

 

[Tom_Builder]

Are you sure about that?? Seems when I equip the appropriate super slayer book, my necro Wither spell does way more damage than my Scrappers - Wither after all is the only necro spell that SDI applies to ...

Also, I thought my WoD did more damage when the appropriate Slayer book was equipped?

I dont know about the others but your right about WoD for sure, it gets a sdi bonus from my spellbook. I know that wither gets a bonus from the jewels I wear, but my necro doenst carry a spellbook. I will have to test it out.

 

[Mistura]

Nope... magery is a great all around skill with summons, direct damage spells and pretty darn good defensive spells. It already has the player made scrappers with slayer mods on it, and can't make talismans. The scrapper is already has much better modifier bonus that any talisman. I think it is pretty well balanced the way spell books and talismans work now.

If anything, Slayers (of all types) should work with Bards... they are the most neglected of all PvM skills.

Scrappers? Warriors get soulseekers. Whats your point?

Warriors get to swing at 1.25 and deal 200 damage per hit without being interupted. Warriors can leech back life/mana/stamina leech while deflecting hits with parry....

I thought we were discussing Talismen though? Whats a scrapper's compendium/soulseeker got to do with slayer talismen? Very little.

Allowing mages to use slayer talismen would increase the balance in PvM rather than make things less balanced.

 

[RichDC]

I dont know about the others but your right about WoD for sure, it gets a sdi bonus from my spellbook. I know that wither gets a bonus from the jewels I wear, but my necro doenst carry a spellbook. I will have to test it out.

Spellweaving is NOT affected by SLAYERS it is only Increased by SPELL DAMAGE INCREASE

 

[Old Man of UO]

...

I thought we were discussing Talismen though? Whats a scrapper's compendium/soulseeker got to do with slayer talismen? Very little.

Allowing mages to use slayer talismen would increase the balance in PvM rather than make things less balanced.

I disagree, but then we see things differently. The scrappers can have slayer mods, that were the comparison to talismans is.

BTW, talisman plural = talismans

 

[Mistura]

rofl - can't believe I got the plural of talisman wrong... Do you want me to start picking you up on all of your gramatical errors? I might have to spend quite a long time at the keyboard

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one old man, I feel strangely as though we're having two completely seperate debates in response to one and other and I can't quite put my finger on what your getting at.

Oh well...

 

[Old Man of UO]

rofl - can't believe I got the plural of talisman wrong... Do you want me to start picking you up on all of your gramatical errors? I might have to spend quite a long time at the keyboard

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one old man, I feel strangely as though we're having two completely seperate debates in response to one and other and I can't quite put my finger on what your getting at.

Oh well...

Ya, on the grammar part... my grammar is exceptional, my typing ain't so good! But we're good. I don't let these things bother me too much.

P.S. grammatical... separate..

 

[Harlequin]

It already has the player made scrappers with slayer mods on it, and can't make talismans. The scrapper is already has much better modifier bonus that any talisman. I think it is pretty well balanced the way spell books and talismans work now.

Ah, but like Scrappers that can get the slayer mod, warriors have weapons that can get the slayer mods too. And life/mana leech, higher DI (compared to SDI) plus many other mods. So crafted slayer spellbooks are equivalent to crafted slayer weapons.

The slayer effect on the non-craftable talismans stack with the slayer properties that warriors have on their weapons, not to mention that talismans offer another range of slayers like birds/bears/beetles/mage/vermin/fire/ice. It'd really be nice if these are made available for mages too.

What's even nicer would be for the "protection from xxx" property to work on spells (or breath weapons) casted by these monsters (eg protection from liches would protect the owner from both melee damage and spell damage from liches).

 

[Old Man of UO]

...
What's even nicer would be for the "protection from xxx" property to work on spells (or breath weapons) casted by these monsters (eg protection from liches would protect the owner from both melee damage and spell damage from liches).

Now, that part I agree with. The protection should work for anyone wearing the talisman. Does it block breath and spells now for warriors?

 

[tymbow]

Scrappers? Warriors get soulseekers. Whats your point?

Warriors get to swing at 1.25 and deal 200 damage per hit without being interupted. Warriors can leech back life/mana/stamina leech while deflecting hits with parry....

I thought we were discussing Talismen though? Whats a scrapper's compendium/soulseeker got to do with slayer talismen? Very little.

Allowing mages to use slayer talismen would increase the balance in PvM rather than make things less balanced.

I'm tending to agree here. I've been doing quit a number of Doom runs of late and I cannot compete with the warriors for damage except for the Darknight Creeper and Shadow Knights for which my Conjurers Grimoire works nicely with direct damage spells. The only caveat though is that to do high end damage you burn mana fast. Even with +10 MR you spend a lot of time meditating adn waiting before you can hit again whilst the warriors are still bashing away. I don't have a Demon slayer book unfortuntaely (never actually seen one).

Biggest issue I have is summons. If you are going to solo hard monsters you really need sumons to keep the heat off as most mages don't have any Healing apart from spells. Problem with summons is they almost ALWAYS get insta dispelled so I find them useless in most cases. To make things worse summons are Level 7 and 8 spells so burn a lot of mana for no end result.

Point is, I think summons like EVs should be harder to dispel to give mages a chance to do some direct damage. I agree with the general logic that a weapon that has a slayer propety should only work for that weapon but mage spells should be affected by talismans.

 

[Basara]

The original statement by the Devs was that the Talisman slayer properties affected weapon damage only, simply because the Slayer property on Spellbooks was coded as a completely different property type from weapon/talisman slayer, to keep mages from holding a slayer weapon to get slayer properties with their spells. Having a talisman do both would either have to be done as two properties, or creating a single, THIRD, type of slayer property that could conceivably cause issues down the road from confusion among programmers, interaction of different properties, etc.) At least devs ALREADY KNEW that two weapon slayer properties would work together from AoS weapons and pre-patch Juka bows.

 

[Mistura]

The original statement by the Devs was that the Talisman slayer properties affected weapon damage only, simply because the Slayer property on Spellbooks was coded as a completely different property type from weapon/talisman slayer, to keep mages from holding a slayer weapon to get slayer properties with their spells. Having a talisman do both would either have to be done as two properties, or creating a single, THIRD, type of slayer property that could conceivably cause issues down the road from confusion among programmers, interaction of different properties, etc.) At least devs ALREADY KNEW that two weapon slayer properties would work together from AoS weapons and pre-patch Juka bows.

Interesting. This reasoning would make alot more sense than any of the other invalid points about tali's causing some kind of PvM imbalance

 

[RichDC]

.

Point is, I think summons like EVs should be harder to dispel to give mages a chance to do some direct damage. I agree with the general logic that a weapon that has a slayer propety should only work for that weapon but mage spells should be affected by talismans.

I agree, to a point.

I find it ridiculous how Imps or Spectres(whom if you lore have about 50magery if that) can instantly dispel and ev, yet as player with 50 magery you wouldnt have a hope in hell!!

Higher end mobs like the DF i think its kind of fitting that they almost insta dispel(they do have like 140magery!)