Faction Guild Alliances

[QueenZen]

Well hopefully Draconi will give us a timeline for this mandate or dictate cuz some alliances go back for years on Siege of crafter guilds with factioners etc. It would be nice to know a time frame or date, as to when he is going to drop all alliances (esp. on Siege), so that we know ahead of time, thus prepared as to WHEN he will do this to us all, regarding many of our longstanding guilds alliances.

 

[Viper09]

Ok, instead of sifting through all the flames here, I'm just going to ask:

How will this change (faction guild alliances to non-faction guilds being removed) will negatively affect the game? Because I can't think of a darn good reason how it will. Non-faction guilds were never suppose to be allied to faction guilds in the first place.

 

[Gwendar-SP]

Ok, instead of sifting through all the flames here, I'm just going to ask:

How will this change (faction guild alliances to non-faction guilds being removed) will negatively affect the game? Because I can't think of a darn good reason how it will. Non-faction guilds were never suppose to be allied to faction guilds in the first place.

An alliance helps with communication. Not everyone uses vent/teamspeak or automap. For folks running KR, uoam is no longer an option even. Our faction/non-faction guilds do things other than fight - ie champ spawns, peerless, general hunting. It is very helpful for the fighters to easily recognize friendlies by their greenness. Not everyone shows a guild tag - ie those who use mirror image. When an activity is raided one can't always stop to read tags.

It is also it is very useful to know who is associated with who. If you are outside of town and see someone fron the XYZ guild you know that they are allied with the ABC guild and therefore you should leave the area before a gank squad shows.

I realize that in the past guilds couldn't ally at all. Being able to do a faction/non-faction alliance has been available since alliances became available.

 

[Omnius]

Gwendar, You just gave the perfect reason why you should either all join the faction or acknowledge an inability to compete even with high end items. Frankly, I don't know anyone who wouldn't want faction horses.

 

[Budweiser]

There there ailish. You have many points that are absolute garbage. It's just pathetic how you think no one is abusing this system when really its a large majority of zergs.

You've said it many times that this change won't change anything. If that's the case stop complaining everyone knows that it WILL make a big difference so stop acting like they are making some random change with no rhyme or reason to it.

On the topic of factions, I think everyone would be okay with the 10hour capture timer and 3 days of the towns when ever you devs could get a chance to put it back, thanks.

You did two things wrong here bubba.

1st. Didn't research who you argued with.
2nd. You argued with Ailish.

Never argue with this women, you will lose.

I agree with JC.
NO opinion, Just agreed.

FIX speed hackers and Target scripting in Pvp, then and only then, fix this silly problem Draconi.

 

[jtw1984]

The bottom line is JC is whining over this change. I don't know the advantages to losing the alliance. I know the disadvantages. Can you cross heal faction mates while you are allied?

However, the bottom line is this. HOT will always use their trammie blues as crutches in fighting. They will figure out a way.

We can't do nothing about it because that is what big guilds do. It's a good tactic, and if my guild was big enough I'd do the same thing.

 

[IanJames]

\Can you cross heal faction mates while you are allied?

\

No, you can't heal or res your faction allies or their pets

 

[T'Challa]

You made a good point in the part that I highlighted above. Breaking up faction and non faction alliances won't change a thing. They'll still be fighting together.. perhaps at a little more risk, but it won't stop them. In the meantime, for this tiny benefit, the guild as a whole will suffer.

More needs to be done than simply making it impossible to ally.

I told you 3-4 years ago this action was an exploit and you didn't want to listen then. Now it's getting fixed and you're still crying? FFS, use map/vent/IRC, jeez...

 

[jtw1984]

No, you can't heal or res your faction allies or their pets

Let's use HOT and HEAT as an example.

If a trammie HOT with a greater drag runs through the poison field of a faction HEAT member. Will the dragon be poisoned and auto target?

That is if they are allied?

 

[WarUltima]

Let's use HOT and HEAT as an example.

If a trammie HOT with a greater drag runs through the poison field of a faction HEAT member. Will the dragon be poisoned and auto target?

That is if they are allied?

Absolutely not. That's one of the many advantages and the main reason why this change is brought up. Also the main facts that many abusive guilds here are trying to hide.

They all say NO YOU CANT HEAL/REZ but they are trying to ignore the facts that they can share Fire Field/Poison Field/Para Field/Wither Bomb/Essence of Wind bomb/Wild Fire bomb/Thunderstorm Bomb/Earth Quake and also they dont passive reveal each other which in term means easier to do the infamous "Blues/Reds dismount, Oranges gank for easy zero skill kill and easy points while also putting enemies in stat" combo.

Nonfaction reds can field the entire battle field while their oranges can concentrates on killing with the assistance of their nonfaction fields, again for zero skill low risk kill/points while also stating the non-abusive guild.

PvP 101. When you got two groups choke fighting each other who you take out first? Answer: Mages. When you have nonfaction mages doing the fielding, it serves almost no purpose killing them. It only gives them about 5 seconds down time... Because BOTH FACTION and NONFACTION players can rez/xheal them. Oh yes I said both, dont pretend that only nonfaction can rez nonfaction. EVERYONE in game can rez these nonfaction mages.

When you defend a choke/field with your nonfaction mages and your mages get killed, minimal harm is done. When the OJ mages got trapped by your nonfaction fields cast by your red/blue mages your own OJs rush and kill their mages... GG statloss. See you in 20 minutes.

Stop all the lies about how using nonfaction crews in faction fights grants zero advantages over the other straight up faction guild. It's simply not true and its really getting old.

 

[Ailish]

If you were not out packing a faction char to dungeon raids, you would not have this issue. Everything you are arguing ... if you were not also on faction chars, would just make you scream zerg.

Take a step back and think about it. Were you having this issue 6 months ago, or were you just facing zergs? If you were not in factions, would this be an issue for you?

People who were in factions BEFORE all the arties came out only ever complained about non-faction people (allied or not!) interfering in faction base fighting. Anywhere else, I don't give a damn how many OJ's are there, they are free-for-all areas and that is one of the things you agree to when joining factions to get your super arties thinking "oh cool, now I can fight at the gate better!"

 

[FrejaSP]

Let's use HOT and HEAT as an example.

If a trammie HOT with a greater drag runs through the poison field of a faction HEAT member. Will the dragon be poisoned and auto target?

That is if they are allied?

Ok, then we don't need to lose the alliance, we just need to fix the problem.

If a non faction HOT with a greater drag runs through the poison field of an allied faction HEAT member, he should become grey to enemy factions or even all faction members not in the allied guild.

Will the dragon be poisoned and auto target? No
Can the factions enemies attack him and his dragon? Yes

We could do the same with healing of an allied faction member, make it possible to heal/res an allied faction member but flag the non faction member grey to faction.

You could even let a flaged non faction member take faction statsloss when he die.

Now I do not play faction, but like being allied to our faction guild because they are a part of out guild and the alliance chat help us communicate and we may do spawn together to be enough to do it or just hunt together if few online.

I don't see why crafters and PvM'ers can't be allied PvP'ers as a guild need all kind of players to be a good guild.

 

[Draxous]

Gwendar, You just gave the perfect reason why you should either all join the faction or acknowledge an inability to compete even with high end items. Frankly, I don't know anyone who wouldn't want faction horses.

not everyone is designed to "compete"

the problem is the bene acts, no friendly fire for fields/summons, etc. etc.

Gwendar is a crafter on Siege... not everyone who can't stand Trammel and the way it's hindered UO in terms of player interactions and dependencies... loves or even likes TO PvP.

There are *gasp* players out there who may not like TO PvP, but absolutely love having PvP as a part of their gaming experience.

Gwendar... would be one of them. I know, I know... it may be very hard to understand...

 

[Kat]

You made a good point in the part that I highlighted above. Breaking up faction and non faction alliances won't change a thing. They'll still be fighting together.. perhaps at a little more risk, but it won't stop them. In the meantime, for this tiny benefit, the guild as a whole will suffer.

More needs to be done than simply making it impossible to ally.

I told you 3-4 years ago this action was an exploit and you didn't want to listen then. Now it's getting fixed and you're still crying? FFS, use map/vent/IRC, jeez...

And I'll tell you the same thing I told you then, not everyone can use those 3rd party programs, einstein. FFS, you act like your opinion on anything makes any difference to me.

 

[JC the Builder]

Let's use HOT and HEAT as an example.

If a trammie HOT with a greater drag runs through the poison field of a faction HEAT member. Will the dragon be poisoned and auto target?

That is if they are allied?

No, because by your definition we all play blues and area attacks such as Poison Field are not going to affect us.

 

[Omnius]

If you were not out packing a faction char to dungeon raids, you would not have this issue. Everything you are arguing ... if you were not also on faction chars, would just make you scream zerg.

Take a step back and think about it. Were you having this issue 6 months ago, or were you just facing zergs? If you were not in factions, would this be an issue for you?

People who were in factions BEFORE all the arties came out only ever complained about non-faction people (allied or not!) interfering in faction base fighting. Anywhere else, I don't give a damn how many OJ's are there, they are free-for-all areas and that is one of the things you agree to when joining factions to get your super arties thinking "oh cool, now I can fight at the gate better!"

Basically your entire argument is flawed. Factions are a war for control of the realm. Not just 4 small bases and 8 desolate cities. The fact that people use faction characters everywhere is completely reasonable and beneficial to pvp in general. Your argument is that people should be allowed to gain an unfair advantage in factions. There is no right for some larger guilds to have an extra advantage of unstatable members mixed with members who can stat you.

If you disagree, well you're wrong. Folks like JC will rant and rave as will his entire hot/heat alliance that runs around here making this argument but it only shows the degree to which it is an advantage for them.

 

[T'Challa]

And I'll tell you the same thing I told you then, not everyone can use those 3rd party programs, einstein. FFS, you act like your opinion on anything makes any difference to me.

So the fact that it's an exploit of game mechanics did not, and still doesn't bother you, you will use it if it benefits you.

Gotcha.

 

[WarUltima]

No, because by your definition we all play blues and area attacks such as Poison Field are not going to affect us.

So you agree the change is fine. Thats great to know.
Some of the more pvp oriented faction guilds are running reds. So you can still abuse this exploit to a level. Since they would still be trapped in your nonfaction blue fields while your OJs can still gank them easy.

Problem solved. Lets all be glad that the long due fix is coming. ^^

 

[T'Challa]

Absolutely not. That's one of the many advantages and the main reason why this change is brought up. Also the main facts that many abusive guilds here are trying to hide.

They all say NO YOU CANT HEAL/REZ but they are trying to ignore the facts that they can share Fire Field/Poison Field/Para Field/Wither Bomb/Essence of Wind bomb/Wild Fire bomb/Thunderstorm Bomb/Earth Quake and also they dont passive reveal each other which in term means easier to do the infamous "Blues/Reds dismount, Oranges gank for easy zero skill kill and easy points while also putting enemies in stat" combo.

Nonfaction reds can field the entire battle field while their oranges can concentrates on killing with the assistance of their nonfaction fields, again for zero skill low risk kill/points while also stating the non-abusive guild.

PvP 101. When you got two groups choke fighting each other who you take out first? Answer: Mages. When you have nonfaction mages doing the fielding, it serves almost no purpose killing them. It only gives them about 5 seconds down time... Because BOTH FACTION and NONFACTION players can rez/xheal them. Oh yes I said both, dont pretend that only nonfaction can rez nonfaction. EVERYONE in game can rez these nonfaction mages.

When you defend a choke/field with your nonfaction mages and your mages get killed, minimal harm is done. When the OJ mages got trapped by your nonfaction fields cast by your red/blue mages your own OJs rush and kill their mages... GG statloss. See you in 20 minutes.

Stop all the lies about how using nonfaction crews in faction fights grants zero advantages over the other straight up faction guild. It's simply not true and its really getting old.

This sums up everything wrong with this exploit. This thread is over.

 

[Kat]

And I'll tell you the same thing I told you then, not everyone can use those 3rd party programs, einstein. FFS, you act like your opinion on anything makes any difference to me.

So the fact that it's an exploit of game mechanics did not, and still doesn't bother you, you will use it if it benefits you.

Gotcha.

It certainly didn't bother you when you were in WAKA... and don't pretend like you never helped their faction guild. We both know the truth. Sorry cupcake, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

The fact of the matter is that there can be a better solution to this problem, as Freja has pointed out. Keeping the alliance chat communication is all I'm interested in. Any other changes are totally fine by me.

 

[T'Challa]

It certainly didn't bother you when you were in WAKA... and don't pretend like you never helped their faction guild. We both know the truth. Sorry cupcake, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Actually, I'm not going to pretend anything. I'm going to tell you that the only time I ever played alongside the faction guild on a non-faction player, they were helpping me, not the other way around. If it was a case of faction fighting/defending/guarding, then I played my

---> faction mage, Shokka Yamamoto <---

(I linked to his MYUO page, but does not work since he hasn't been logged in like 3 years.)

As for cupcake, take yer cupcake and stuff it with some cream cheese

The fact of the matter is that there can be a better solution to this problem, as Freja has pointed out. Keeping the alliance chat communication is all I'm interested in. Any other changes are totally fine by me.

Here again, I cannot fathom why you want development resources taken away from serious issues when you have a multitude of options available to you. As mentioned before, map/IRC/vent are available to everyone, 2/3 of which are free of charge. If your computer cannot handle map/irc/vent, then you should go out and get a job instead of playing UO/playing house.

You folks exploited a game mechanic (yes, my previous guild did it as well, however, I did not condone it. I did not condone MANY of my guild's actions at the time I was a part of WAKA) to gain access to alliance chat, but the fact remains that it allows your various faction/nonfaction guilds to be protected from one another's acts, and that's not how it's supposed to work. Development time should be spent to close the loophole, not augment it to fit *your* guild's needs, or even *our* shard's needs.

 

[kelmo]

Accusations and name calling are doing nothing to further this conversation. If it does not cease... bad things will happen.

*stares*

 

[Ailish]

First, I think Freja came up with an interesting idea that, if possible, could resolve the issue to everyone's liking. Let non-faction members flag grey to factioneers if they go through their allied's fields, or if their allied factioneers go thru theirs. Leave bene acts as-is, tho.

Actually, I'm not going to pretend anything. I'm going to tell you that the only time I ever played alongside the faction guild on a non-faction player, they were helpping me, not the other way around. If it was a case of faction fighting/defending/guarding, then I played my

Now, here is exactly an example of what I am talking about that not every fight where faction people are present is a faction fight, by definition. If my non-faction guild is doing Despise, and they are raided by a faction guild, that is NOT a faction fight. If my faction allies come to our aid, it is STILL not a faction fight. That assumes that my non-faction guild was fighting for factions before any factioneer ever arrived, which would be untrue. Yes, it gives the pure-faction team a disadvantage of not being able to put the non-faction members of the other team in stat, while being able to be put in stat themselves, but that was a concious choice they made by raiding on factioneers.

Certainly, you can argue that factions are fighting for control of the whole realm, but that would be inaccurate. They are only fighting for control of the THRONE. The throne only has control over guard-zone areas. This is true even in Tram.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

If you were not out packing a faction char to dungeon raids, you would not have this issue. Everything you are arguing ... if you were not also on faction chars, would just make you scream zerg.

Take a step back and think about it. Were you having this issue 6 months ago, or were you just facing zergs? If you were not in factions, would this be an issue for you?

People who were in factions BEFORE all the arties came out only ever complained about non-faction people (allied or not!) interfering in faction base fighting. Anywhere else, I don't give a damn how many OJ's are there, they are free-for-all areas and that is one of the things you agree to when joining factions to get your super arties thinking "oh cool, now I can fight at the gate better!"

You keep avoiding people like myself and warultima. You've been given a plethra of different situations in which this is a benifit.

We all understand why you're crying, as YOU stated earlier you are partaking in this flaw. YOU also claimed if they changed it to where you can't be allied it won't change anything. Since these are your words you can stop crying.

We both know that you are praying your ignorant words turn the hearts and minds of a change that is in the works. No matter how much you pout on stratics, this change IS coming.

Get use to it : )

 

[Sweeney]

*stares*

You're stealing someone's catch phrase.. Yahaxi-something.

*glares*

 

[Kat]

First, I think Freja came up with an interesting idea that, if possible, could resolve the issue to everyone's liking. Let non-faction members flag grey to factioneers if they go through their allied's fields, or if their allied factioneers go thru theirs. Leave bene acts as-is, tho.

Actually, I'm not going to pretend anything. I'm going to tell you that the only time I ever played alongside the faction guild on a non-faction player, they were helpping me, not the other way around. If it was a case of faction fighting/defending/guarding, then I played my

Now, here is exactly an example of what I am talking about that not every fight where faction people are present is a faction fight, by definition. If my non-faction guild is doing Despise, and they are raided by a faction guild, that is NOT a faction fight. If my faction allies come to our aid, it is STILL not a faction fight. That assumes that my non-faction guild was fighting for factions before any factioneer ever arrived, which would be untrue. Yes, it gives the pure-faction team a disadvantage of not being able to put the non-faction members of the other team in stat, while being able to be put in stat themselves, but that was a concious choice they made by raiding on factioneers.

Bingo! We have a winner!

 

[Viquire]

And why, oh why, if we were to keep faction/non-faction alliances for the purpose of communication, roleplay, AoE nonflag, etc. all the benefits of alliance would we not have guilds allied to faction guilds toggle orange to faction guilds.

They are essentially the friend of your enemy, and therefore, also your enemy.

Now, non faction guilds allied to faction guilds participating on either side would still flag blue to the other(?, or should they) non faction guild, they wouldn't suffer stat but they would not be able to use the items.

They still don't get to heal/rez their allies as non belligerents, and are still open flag targets for active factioneers using AoE.

In my mind the risk factor just went way up for this style of play if you implement the above change. The solution doesn't help Siege at all, sorry I don't see how you guys can have non-combatants and combatants allied in a place where there is no "safe" zone.

I tried to make this alliance thing work for a guild on Origin just mainly to try and spark some interest for players that have never had to play in Fel and have always chosen to not expose themselves to PvP battles. I think its fun, and a rush, but its very hard to get people who've played only crafters and pvm templates to take a look at altering their playstyle because it is never on their radar.

Alliance chat allows for folks to be challenged to grow in a different direction, but it certainly shouldn't allow for the manipulation I see being talked about in this thread.

In my experience it is difficult to get larger groups of players to consistently check a website or even turn on icq. It didn't seem to be such a problem pre tram, but give people the choice and unless they have to hear about it or see it on a daily basis they just push the ignore button and never look back.

I think the flagging system for factions and the different flagging tiers has needed a once over in regard to priority for quite some time now.

I'm not sure how I feel about this for Siege, it seems that a shard dedicated for veteran players should have a lot less need to grow players into factioneers. However, I do understand there are some rather severe limitations with only one character available for play.

In summary:

I would rather that is was easier for faction guilds to participate in alliances with non faction guilds.(grow some pvmers)

I would rather that non faction guilds allied with faction guilds have greater exposure to the faction system when in Fel.

Last, not least, manipulation of the combat/flagging system must be halted.

 

[Kat]

The solution doesn't help Siege at all, sorry I don't see how you guys can have non-combatants and combatants allied in a place where there is no "safe" zone.

Just wanted to address this part of your post. There are safe zones on Siege for those you mention, which is the protection the [relatively safety] guardzones offer.

If given my choice, I would prefer the faction/non-faction alliances be allowed with some flagging changes implemented.

- Non-Faction allies and pets should be flagged orange to opposing factions under certain circimstances.

a. When aggressing on any opposing faction member.
b. When hit with area effect spells and fields.
c. When attempting to perform other beneficial acts the game currently allows to an allied faction player.

I am also not opposed to stat-loss and murder counts for such players. I welcome other suggestions, but something of this nature is what I would like to see instead of breaking up a faction/non-faction alliance.

Why? Because both are part of the same guild. Those who wish to play factions go directly into the faction guild. New players, Crafters and PvMer's go into the other, yet there are plenty of occasions where we do things as a group and rely on in game communication. Even those in vent regularly use alliance chat to relay messages in order to avoid over-talking each other.

 

[The_Dude_]

First, I think Freja came up with an interesting idea that, if possible, could resolve the issue to everyone's liking. Let non-faction members flag grey to factioneers if they go through their allied's fields, or if their allied factioneers go thru theirs. Leave bene acts as-is, tho.

Now, here is exactly an example of what I am talking about that not every fight where faction people are present is a faction fight, by definition. If my non-faction guild is doing Despise, and they are raided by a faction guild, that is NOT a faction fight. If my faction allies come to our aid, it is STILL not a faction fight. That assumes that my non-faction guild was fighting for factions before any factioneer ever arrived, which would be untrue. Yes, it gives the pure-faction team a disadvantage of not being able to put the non-faction members of the other team in stat, while being able to be put in stat themselves, but that was a concious choice they made by raiding on factioneers.

Certainly, you can argue that factions are fighting for control of the whole realm, but that would be inaccurate. They are only fighting for control of the THRONE. The throne only has control over guard-zone areas. This is true even in Tram.

Thanks for posting this. This is exactly why this is an exploit. Also faction fighting is any fight where someone can go into statloss. Thats what faction fighting is. So guess what that means ANYWHERE. So tired of hearing this bull**** about faction are just about towns. Bull**** factions are about fighting. That is why there is a rank system. The more kills the higher your rank. Before this latest patch where you get pnts for stealing you needed kills to move up in rank.

If you notice all the gear they gave out is geared for PVP not STEALING SIGILS. The ones who claim factions are all about towns are the ones who cant pvp and instead guard sigils everyday when noones on. Thats why theres faction towns. These are used for fighting thus guards being allowed to be placed.

Get over it your guild used an exploit(just like dupers cheaters etc) to gain advantages. Like you said you fight side by side of them against faction people thus its an advantage.

 

[JC the Builder]

And why, oh why, if we were to keep faction/non-faction alliances for the purpose of communication, roleplay, AoE nonflag, etc. all the benefits of alliance would we not have guilds allied to faction guilds toggle orange to faction guilds.

If this did happen then other factions you were not allied to would have to appear orange to you as well. So you go from not being able to assist either side to being able to attack directly and get outside non-allied help. You have the benefit of fighting with factions without the beneficial act drawback.

It is an interesting idea but it would add a lot of complexity and loopholes into the system.

As for the people who keep saying factions is a battle of control for the entire facet, I am trying to dig up the original team comments. Here is what the UO Renaissance publish stated:

The Enhanced PvP area will be where factions in the faction system battle for control of cities. This system is currently in testing.

Champion Spawns are certainly not cities.

 

[RichDC]

Champion Spawns are certainly not cities.

City of the dead is

 

[Omnius]

JC, we all know the lore for factions pretty well. We all know its a war for the world not just a few desolate towns.

 

[RichDC]

JC, we all know the lore for factions pretty well. We all know its a war for the world not just a few desolate towns.

He whom controls the cities shall control the world!

So yea your right

 

[Vexxed]

Ummm...Wow. Someone who is usually pretty knowledgable about stuff goes & says this stuff....

As for the people who keep saying factions is a battle of control for the entire facet, I am trying to dig up the original team comments. Here is what the UO Renaissance publish stated:

Quote:
The Enhanced PvP area will be where factions in the faction system battle for control of cities. This system is currently in testing.

Champion Spawns are certainly not cities.

Without doing ANY digging to find an actual Deveolopers quote on the matter it's a well known fact that Factions is about PVP.. .which is one of those things that can happen just about anywhere.. so why in the world are you trying to imply that FACTION PvPer's doing so outside of a faction city are doing something wrong?


Lastly.. for those handful that seem to want to keep a broken alliance system in reguards to factions simply for communication issues.... Sheesh, talk about a round about method..

Factions = PvP
Faction Alliances = Broken
PvP = Broken
Broken = Complaints

I failed to see "communication anywhere in the equation which is perhaps why it's not a factor....

 

[Viquire]

Lastly.. for those handful that seem to want to keep a broken alliance system in reguards to factions simply for communication issues.... Sheesh, talk about a round about method..

Factions = PvP
Faction Alliances = Broken
PvP = Broken
Broken = Complaints

I failed to see "communication anywhere in the equation which is perhaps why it's not a factor....

I completely get where you are coming from, hence my point that exploitation of the flagging system must be halted.

There's a couple of ways to look at this as I see it.

The alliance system is broken, for allowing alliances to exist between guilds that have faction/no faction status, OR...

the flagging system is broken for not taking into account other things in the light of a faction status. (ie and I believe I'm right in saying that quite a few folks have made complaint, over the years, that red/blue don't seem to be prioritized correctly in light of factions, particularly where faction membership to the same faction is considered.)

I am not arguing that communication is more important than correct flagging and non belligerent limitations within the system. I am just stating it has a merit that we might want to consider before emptying the tub of the bathwater.

 

[IanJames]

the flagging system is broken for not taking into account other things in the light of a faction status. (ie and I believe I'm right in saying that quite a few folks have made complaint, over the years, that red/blue don't seem to be prioritized correctly in light of factions, particularly where faction membership to the same faction is considered.)

Aye, this is a problem. Why can't different guilds who belong to the same faction work together in the field without having to be allied?

 

[JC the Builder]

Without doing ANY digging to find an actual Deveolopers quote on the matter it's a well known fact that Factions is about PVP.. .which is one of those things that can happen just about anywhere.. so why in the world are you trying to imply that FACTION PvPer's doing so outside of a faction city are doing something wrong?

UO is a world. Factions is a part of that world, not the entirety of it. You balance Factions around its purpose, capturing and controlling cities. If you start going around and balancing it for house fighting and champion spawns then it looses focus.

How about they just make champion spawn areas faction only zones like the strongholds? That seems to be what people are moving towards with their faction only replies.

 

[Vexxed]

You balance Factions around its purpose, capturing and controlling cities. If you start going around and balancing it for house fighting and champion spawns then it looses focus

That's where we disagree ..... The PURPOSE of factions is to promote PvP with a system designed with incentives & drawbacks. There's only a few incentives to control a city from a "PvP" perspective.

--Horse Breeder (only needed till you get the horse)
--Faction Traps (Area advantage tool..but only if there's a tinker to do it)
--Faction Guards (Tools for the WEAK or outnumbered)

From what I've seen of several Shards City Defense ISN'T where most of the Faction PvP takes place..... Anyway.... The whole point of this thread is that factions + alliances are broken atm, I don't see how fixing them is going to make factions "loose focus". Btw... as the GM of probably the largest guild in the game I think you have a biased point of view on the subject. You seem to be more concerned with pleasing your guild Factioner's vs non Factioners & the coummunication issules "fixing" the alliance issule would cause for you. So.. a simple question..


1) Do you agree that a mixxed alliance of Factions & Factions has a significant advantage in a large group ??

ex.. The good ole 2 Faction Greater Drag Stealthers + 5 Red Necro mages for example. Necro mages do the Choke fight thing & the dieing as well & if an Enemy OJ is vunerable your 2 OJ Tamers pop out STAT him and hide again.... If they weren't allied then the friendly fire aspect would be HUGE.

 

[WarUltima]

Still amazes me how one of the biggest guild/aliance in UO is protesting a pvp exploit. A lot of atl players taking it proudly as the most pvp active shard. Yet for an pvp exploit like this which obviously provides many huge (unbalanced?) advantages towards the exploitors is being protested with the "communication" excuse/reason.

Oh yeh it only give some little advantages like sharing poisoning fields, para fields, fire fields, essence of wind bombs, thunderstorm bombs, wild fire bombs, wither bombs, Ev ganks, nonfaction to cover the stronghold exits while factions can stronghold rune in and crossfiring on the opposite team, when fel had gzone nonfactions are able to freely attack/flag on enemy faction red but faction reds attempting to use anything aoe or attack blues that's HELPING their faction counterpart to stop you from taking sigils the FACTIONEERS that's trying to escape with FACTION SIGILS gets guardwacked. Oh yea when a fight is taking place near gzone or in any cities stick a few blues in there and you are immune to all enemy aoes, fields, evs, blade spirits and the HONEST FACTIONEERS that tries to attack the other big group of FACTION ENEMIES with any sort of aoe gets gwacked.

There just a little advantages provided by using mixed noto team that don't flag each other over the honest real faction team. I know I know its not much!!! Its ONLY THE COMMUNICATIONS that's the problem thus the abusing of the carebear exploit. Ok ok you made your points...you sworn there's zero advantages using mixed noto team and 100% of the reason why you are exploiting the system is due to communication... sigh kiddies thesedays.

 

[Kaleb]

It should remain as is, Most dont play factions like it was created to be like most play factions for items, they still pvp like normal. when the faction changes came out alot of guilds made faction guilds they allied their guilds so they can remain in contact with their guildmates. If they were to change it it would fubar more guilds then the guilds who would be effected on the couple shards that really do factions.

 

[JC the Builder]

That's where we disagree ..... The PURPOSE of factions is to promote PvP with a system designed with incentives & drawbacks. There's only a few incentives to control a city from a "PvP" perspective.

If the system is to promote PVP why are they trying to discourage it by removing alliances? I was only able to get people to participate by using the alliance system because not being able to play together, faction and non-faction characters, makes people not want to take part.

If friendly fire is such an issue I would be all for removing that benefit so we can stay allied.

 

[Vexxed]

If the system is to promote PVP why are they trying to discourage it by removing alliances?

They aren't..... maybe you missed it but alliances are providing an unfair advantage to those that abuse that tactic. If there are no faction alliances than people will be forced to FACTION or NOT... none of this little of both on one side. The end result of this will be...

Factioner's Vs Factioners (ALL risk STAT)
OR
Factioner's Vs. NON-Factioners. (NONE risk STAT)

When the point of factions became letting your allied non-faction guildmates do all the work / lay the fields / do the dieing... & your job as THE OJ is simply to be the opportunist & take one shot to put someone in STAT you know someething went wrong....

Imo... eliminating unfair abuse of game mechanics and leveling the playing field.. EVERYONE or NONE (STATED) will promote PvP and factions.. the incentive of better quality items for being in factions is still there & effective.

I was only able to get people to participate by using the alliance system because not being able to play together, faction and non-faction characters, makes people not want to take part. If friendly fire is such an issue I would be all for removing that benefit so we can stay allied.

Hmm..... a few points

1) "You don't have to be allied to play together.." that's a FACT.

2)Your willing to turn friendly fire on in Faction alliances.. so what your really saying is..... "I run the largest guilds in UO & I can't get people to do factions because we need alliance chat to function & beyond that I don't really care about the PvP implications... Matter of fact I really enjoy using the current system to my advantage" Anyway.. that's all I really got out of what you said.... pls point out to me where I went wrong.

 

[Connor_Graham]

If friendly fire is such an issue I would be all for removing that benefit so we can stay allied and continue to exploit the system.

Fixed it for you.

Even a non-PvP'r can see how an alliance between faction and non-faction players exploits the game mechanincs. You might want to quit while you're ahead.

 

[JC the Builder]

Fixed it for you.

Even a non-PvP'r can see how an alliance between faction and non-faction players exploits the game mechanincs. You might want to quit while you're ahead.

How are two guilds which just show green to each other and can use alliance chat going to "exploit the system"?

 

[WarUltima]

How are two guilds which just show green to each other and can use alliance chat going to "exploit the system"?

I am glad at least you changed your view points on how using the exploited flagging rules do not give any advantage bullcrap to admit that its indeed giving unfair advantages. At least you are not completely ignorant.

Yes, it would work fine if flagging rule exploit is fixed while keeping the alliance. however it goes down to coding difficulty. To remove alliance between faction and nonfaction guild is simple and no extra coding is necessary. By simply keeping everything the same and eliminate the exploit so no alliance is allowed will fix all the problems with little resource required.

You are asking a coding change just because YOU OR YOUR GUILD PREFER IT THAT WAY. Is nothing but selfishness. Like some of your members' ignorant posts saying "EITHER KEEP THE EXPLOIT OR CHANGE IT TO THE WAY WE LIKE IT". It doesnt work that way. even if you have the biggest guild in UO still dont give you the rights to ask the devs to built the game around YOUR needs and on top of that it will waste a lot of resource to recode it so YOU ARE HAPPY.

It always riddled me why an nonfaction char is not allowed in a faction guild while spend 25k and make a guild and ally to a faction guild can get around that. This clearly indicates that an exploit/bug exists. Nonfaction char in faction alliance is 100% just like a nonfaction char in FACTION GUILD. Its an obvious exploit.

If dev really commit to spend time I dont mind them changing it so YOU are happy, heck I perfer they do it with the "faction flag" suggestion posted previously where its possible to STAT a nonfaction char if they assist their faction crew in any way shape or form. But you wouldnt like it, it might be to harsh for you or the biggest alliance in uo. I understand many of your nonfaction players dont want nothing to do with statloss but they sure are currently assisting YOUR OJs to put other faction in the shoe the hated the most, "statloss".

 

[JC the Builder]

You are asking a coding change just because YOU OR YOUR GUILD PREFER IT THAT WAY. Is nothing but selfishness. Like some of your members' ignorant posts saying "EITHER KEEP THE EXPLOIT OR CHANGE IT TO THE WAY WE LIKE IT". It doesnt work that way. even if you have the biggest guild in UO still dont give you the rights to ask the devs to built the game around YOUR needs and on top of that it will waste a lot of resource to recode it so YOU ARE HAPPY.

I'm not looking for special treatment in any way. I am just trying to find out what we are supposed to be doing as players. I managed to get our guild, and the rest of the shard, involved in factions by selling them on staying allied. We joined before the item additions or any of that stuff. The entire point was to promote PVP.

Now that things are going the developers are changing the rules and not telling us what they plan to do. It took a lot of work to get things to this point of enjoyment and playability, and that is now being put in jeopardy.

The only complaint I see about factions and non-factions allying is the friendly fire benefit. This benefit would be open to everyone if they allowed these alliances once again. It allows a guild who isn't ready to go all in, to split in two and stay closely together. If they want to restrict fighting by making some/all champion spawns faction only areas that could be an interesting change.

By the way, I can't locate any posts in this topic which come from a member of our guild. If you want I could certainly get them in here if you like to respond.

 

[WarUltima]

Ok it's my fault on taking any ATL poster here that promotes exploiting as your guildie. I guess its just someone else in other guild that also exploits this old exploit.

Anyways its always easier to fix one thing than change many many things to fulfill a group of people.

They have two choices.

1. Remove alliance between faction and nonfaction while keeping all the coding the same.

2. Change the code on faction and nonfaction in alliance flags, wrote a code that conditionally ALLOW same alliance flagging (in the case of pure faction alliance and pure nonfaction alliance it's impossible to field/aoe flag). That creates an exception in the coding ect ect.

It probably took you a long time by utilizing the exploit to form a huge alliance that you love. But it doesnt change the fact that you are exploiting. A bug is a bug, an exploit is an exploit, and people who have any sense in game balance know that this is indeed a problem.

You said it's not out of your alliances' selfishness but you want the change to happen in the way that it will not impact your guild.

Like I said, if they really want to devote time for extensive recoding to please one guild, I am all for it. As long as they remove the exploit on flagging rules.

 

[Viquire]

Been doing some more thinking about this

If you have a guild in an alliance and your guild is not the controlling guild of the alliance, well you can't just go out and create a guild war with another guild when ever you want to.

The controlling guild is the only guild in the alliance able to declare war, and then the whole alliance is at war.

My point, again, being that if any one part of the alliance is seen to be at war for purposes of flagging then the whole of the alliance shares that distinction.

Following that train of thought produces two things for me.

Number one:

All factioned guilds are by selection of joining factions are already committed to an alliance of sorts in the faction system. Which reinforces my earlier point about reds and blues should be able to work together as members of the same faction and receive flagging benefits as per allied factions. BUT, it is possible that they do not to prevent exploiting the ability to loot the corpses of guild/alliance members. I would like to hear thoughts from a Dev about this and what if anything practically could be done to change this.

Number two:

If it is not possible in a practical way to extend alliance benefits to members of each of the four factions within that particular faction under a commander, then what other steps can we take to grow the faction system for groups not already active in the system not just in 09 but as the game continues to evolve as time progresses?

 

[JC the Builder]

Ok it's my fault on taking any ATL poster here that promotes exploiting as your guildie. I guess its just someone else in other guild that also exploits this old exploit.

Have you even read this topic? Most of the people here were discussing how it is going to dramatically affect Siege Perilous. I went and checked the top 20 faction guilds there, many are allied to non-faction ones.

It probably took you a long time by utilizing the exploit to form a huge alliance that you love.

Why do you keep making stuff up? We didn't form an alliance with other people, we allied the two guilds so we could continue to play closely together. The only people in our faction guild were from the main guild.

Before I started all this hoopla about Factions there were only 3 guilds and 5 people with kill points greater than 0 (source). Today there are over 40 guilds consisting of hundreds of players, just on Atlantic.

You know, I should really audit the participation compared to the numbers I took last year. Let me get on that.

 

[Vexxed]

Have you even read this topic? Most of the people here were discussing how it is going to dramatically affect Siege Perilous. I went and checked the top 20 faction guilds there, many are allied to non-faction ones.

That may be True but the Siege Ruleset makes for ALOT of differences. I'd say judging the effect the alliance "FIX" based off of the Siege ruleset is quite silly....

25 other shards. VS. Siege / Mugen
Needs of the many vs needs of the few..

-One character per account means that OF COURSE your going to have more Faction / Non-Faction alliances & it will be more important to them bc you can't simply swtich characters etc..

we allied the two guilds so we could continue to play closely together."

Umm... Alliance chat is not a mandatory requirement to being able to play "closely together" if you use VENT, & I know you guys use that. So... perhaps what your getting at is that the mixxed Faction / Non-faction alliance is more useful to you the way it is vs. how they propose to change it? If that's the case & you cannot admit it's an unfair advantage in PvP & your only other concern is being able to chat together than I suggest you come up with a better arguement.....