Faction Guild Alliances

[JC the Builder]

The recent Five on Friday states:

Why are faction guilds allowed to be allied with non faction guilds? This is a huge imbalance on the fighting field.

They shouldn’t be able to, this is a bug and will be squashed appropriately. If your faction guild is allied with a non-faction guild, please drop the alliance before we do.
-Draconi

This is nonsense. Instead of going into a bunch of other stuff, lets just address the question itself. The "fighting field" is mostly inside faction bases, of which the non-faction guilds can not enter. So there is no imbalance to begin with. Preventing alliances between faction and non-faction guilds on the basis of an unbalanced fighting field is a fallacy.

In addition we had a huge fight two nights ago in front of the Shadowlords stronghold in which had both an enemy faction and non-faction friendly (not allied) guild present. They were causing just as much interference as if they were allied.

The main benefit of allying a non-faction and faction guild is you can use the same communication tools (alliance chat) and play together without hitting each other. This has no direct bearing on how faction fighting turns out.

The alliance system was meant to make game play more fun and easier. To restrict what types of guilds can ally in this manner is a step backwards.

 

[CatLord]

Allied fields wont touch the reds in factions...
Area effects... neither...

That is the advantage.

 

[JC the Builder]

But you have to be fighting in the same location to have that advantage, which is not possible inside faction strongholds. Even if this were an "advantage", it would be available to everyone if non-faction and faction alliances were enabled again.

 

[CatLord]

Main battles are done on Spawn and Harrower locations, no?

 

[JC the Builder]

What in the world does Champion Spawns and Harrowers have to do with the faction system? I must have missed that design document.

 

[Cetric]

What in the world does Champion Spawns and Harrowers have to do with the faction system? I must have missed that design document.

just because a guild is in factions doesnt mean it only fights in faction bases, you must not get out much. Alot of the bigger spawn guilds have a side faction guild with alternate characters, so these two groups can fight side by side in a spawn and not area effect or field each other. That is the advantage over other groups that are not allied together.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

This is a good change. On many shards big zergs will come to a fight with 70% non-faction and just try to bank on the other 30% getting kill shots. Now you'll have to be all or nothing, I like that.

As for alliance chat if you're someones ally you can just as easily let them in your vent or send out an icq message, alliance chat isn't the only way to communicate.

 

[QueenZen]

That may be but a lot of the allied groups of guilds allied to factioners are also JUST crafter template chrs. too and so they are NOT out in the field doing champ spawns either ! My guild is allied to TNT on Siege...been allied for ages. . could not even res any of them always got that gump can not do beneficial on any of em....never find the crafters in any fights or champ spawns but allied friends of a guild that IS factions. Non interferance is also part of our guild to the degree ...we do NOT mess with factions fights etc.

As for champ spawns maybe they need to FIX that or whatever bugs there are instead of forcing friendships among guilds to unallie..messing up every guilds own forums, guild stones, vent and so on cuz we'd be *forced* to separate from our faction allies guild ? ? Seems to be a dev. team way that is akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater, messing over lots of allied guilds in game on all shards, instead of ...cleaning up the water !

 

[JC the Builder]

just because a guild is in factions doesnt mean it only fights in faction bases, you must not get out much. Alot of the bigger spawn guilds have a side faction guild with alternate characters, so these two groups can fight side by side in a spawn and not area effect or field each other. That is the advantage over other groups that are not allied together.

But that isn't faction fight. That is Champion Spawn fighting. There are no sigils or bases involved. They are two separate fighting systems. You could war someone in Trammel and fight at a Champion Spawn. Are you going to complain when they bring their non-war characters to avoid fighting?

 

[Lynk]

No, if there are people in one faction fighting people in another faction that is (by definition) faction fighting.

Either all factions or none at all. This is a good change.

 

[IanJames]

Disagree, this is really going to screw things up on Siege

 

[kelmo]

Disagree, this is really going to screw things up on Siege

Do some research and then see if it possible to make it a Siege feature... Just thinking.

 

[Kelline]

I have to agree with Jc

Faction fights r mostly IN the bases over sigs. & ONLY faction members can go in the bases.

most guilds allied to faction guilds, are the same ppl, just on alts. Yes they spawn too, why shouldnt they? It allows them to play toghter.

other non faction guilds ally with non faction guilds & spawn together.. is that a prob? no atleast it wasnt mentioned here.

If they kill the faction/non factions .. then for the same reason they should kill ALL alliances. Cuz the arguement is that omg allies can help ect... who the heck cares if they r in factions? so what? It makes it a lil more difficult for them as they can only be rez'd by factions. & omg they get to kill other factions that show up.. owow.. or get stat if killed by one.

No im not much on the factions, heck hardly pvp myself, but even i ca see tht there is no prob with this.

There are more important things in game that could & should be fixed, to me this is minor.

 

[kentuckyjoe]

This is a good change. On many shards big zergs will come to a fight with 70% non-faction and just try to bank on the other 30% getting kill shots. Now you'll have to be all or nothing, I like that. .

This is exactly the problem with the ZERGS on Atlantic. 99% of the Faction fighting on Atlantic is done away from the bases. Most of it is done at either Yew Gate or Champ locations. Because of this, the non-ally thing is a great idea and long overdue. If your guild wants to enjoy the benifits of being in factions and using faction items, you shouldn't have to rely on the crutch of having your allied non-faction guild there to bail you out.

 

[Tom_Builder]

This is exactly the problem with the ZERGS on Atlantic. 99% of the Faction fighting on Atlantic is done away from the bases. Most of it is done at either Yew Gate or Champ locations. Because of this, the non-ally thing is a great idea and long overdue. If your guild wants to enjoy the benifits of being in factions and using faction items, you shouldn't have to rely on the crutch of having your allied non-faction guild there to bail you out.

Well said KentuckyJoe.

 

[Picus of Napa]

Leave it as it is.

If your factioned and a enemy guild shows up one of two things are going to happen if you die, either you go to stat or you do not. The exact same thing will happen without the allies but now both your group and the group your fighting will have to watch out for fields and area effect. Wrong targets will show on both sides and cause grief to both sides.

This is a simple case of someone getting stomped and looking for someone to blame. Just join the faction and get the items thus risking stat or don't but please do not screw up the game more so then it currently is.

 

[Flutter]

This is a much needed change. You want to "use the same communication tools" then have them join the faction then ally or guild them.
Anything else is just an excuse.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

JC you're acting as if most guilds in fel aren't factions these days. That being said say you have a large guild and you bring 20players not in faction, and then 5 in factions to a spawn(Despise for example). These five could be stealthers(faction), and move through your allied guilds fields(non faction), if an enemy guild gets a member killed the stealth archer can go out res kill the enemy and render that player useless for the next 20 minutes. If you don't see how that's not over powered where you can play mostly not in factions and just have people res killing, well I feel bad for you then. It's a good change it should be all or nothing because of situations like this.

 

[Experimental]

What in the world does Champion Spawns and Harrowers have to do with the faction system? I must have missed that design document.

I'll tell ya what champ spawns and harrowers have to do with factions....On my shard the only damn thing factions are used for anymore are to eliminate any competition for 20 minutes while pulling off a spawn.
None of the factions give a crap about the towns or sigils unless they're getting low on points and need to add a few so they can wear their faction arties.
I haven't seen but ONE fight in a faction base in the last month and it was really not much more than a squabble between Minax and CoM
99% or more of the fighting is at a champ spawn between two to four different factions with each trying to get the upper hand so that they have control of the spawn and the other factions are either in stat loss or outnumbered allowing the winning faction to finish the spawn and get the replicas/scrolls/gold.

Factions now are nothing more than another way of griefing.

 

[Ailish]

I have to agree with JC on this. NON faction, allied members CANNOT heal, rez, invis, etc their FACTION allies. They CANNOT enter faction bases. The ONLY benefit is alliance chat, fields and area effect, and, as noted, this happens away from faction areas.

One person said "well the other people have to deal with hitting eachother". No, you dont. You can ally just as well.

One person says "well the faction people arent acutally "doing" factions." Well, just because a person is in factions, that should mean that they are not allowed to do anything else, ever? (btw, I sympathise with the sentiment on "fake" factioneers, they irk me badly, as well, but I don't believe that has anything at all to do with being allied).

Lets look at it this way: You have a passionate hate for your little sister's ex-boyfriend because he did her wrong. You best friend has no nevermind with the guy, other than that he doesnt like him because you dont. So, you are out with your pal at a bar, and your sister is nowhere to be seen, and you end up in a brawl with sis's ex and his 5 friends. Should your best pal just stand back and observe because its not his business? Should he swing AT YOU because its not his business?

Champ spawns and harrowers and Yew Gate have absolutely NOTHING to do with factions. NOTHING. Sure, bitter enemies are going to kill eachother wherever they find eachother. Its the way the world turns. But that is STILL doesnt make it a "faction" fight. It isnt. Its just two people who hate eachother killing eachother (or 5 or 10).

Honestly, if you dont want to risk stat loss at a champ spawn, dont take a faction character. Period. Those who are willing to risk getting stat loss in a NON-faction arena? Well they are already putting themselves at a disadvantage, so your argument that it is an unfair advantage dont hold water for me. Try doing an Oaks on a non-CoM faction character and tell me there is some advantage there?

On a side note, I think that fields and AoE of factioneers of the SAME factions, should always behave as if everyone involved is blue/green. Have you ever tried to defend a base and end up EQ'ing a friendly or para-fielding them to their death at the other faction's hands because you were not allied with them? Talk about a PITA. Oh, and of course, if they attack the opposing faction, you can't rez them if they die, either!! Talk about a disadvantage ....

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Re-read my example, because things like that happen a lot.
Your analogy was pretty bad.

No one is complaining about healing/resing its the fact that the large group of non-faction players will get the kill, and then the large groups faction chars just res kill. That's where the problem is steming from.

This does happen a lot at spawns for some zergs, they are bad and they are trying to manipulate the system. I'm all for this change.

 

[Ailish]

Re-read my example, because things like that happen a lot.
Your analogy was pretty bad.

No one is complaining about healing/resing its the fact that the large group of non-faction players will get the kill, and then the large groups faction chars just res kill. That's where the problem is steming from.

This does happen a lot at spawns for some zergs, they are bad and they are trying to manipulate the system. I'm all for this change.

Two things: why are you rez'ing where you can be RK'd by OJs? and, they could do this just as well without being allied, they would just have to step more carefully around eachother.

Faction guilds are going to have non-faction counterparts. They are going to play together no matter what. Non-faction chars are restricted from faction areas and cannot interfere in faction fights. Anything outside those areas are, by definition, not faction fights, and thus dont apply. Again, if you dont want to risk stat loss when raiding, then use a non-faction char. Its that easy.

Oh, and btw ... you could also enlist the help of others if necessary, go kill all their faction people, put THEM in stat, and then your issue is solved. You are choosing to take your faction char to a non-faction area. Understand that.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

I'm not sure what you don't understand. People play stealthers in factions just to drobe, while they get the beneifit of hiding behind fields that if they weren't allied they would get stuck in/revealed by.

I play factions on every shard, I'm well aware of the risk. I don't die to this, that doesn't mean that I have never seen it done.

You're talking about killing the faction person and problem solved, it's not solved when they are all stealtherS. Multiple people in different forms isn't easy to find. I can't wait for this change, once again they said this was something you wouldn't be able to do and people took advantage of a flaw in the system. I'm glad they are fixing a flaw they intended to get rid of a while ago : )

 

[Ailish]

Your problem has nothing to do with factions and everything to do with stealthers and zergs. I understand your complaint just fine, I just dont agree with it. Let me state my position again in a different way:

Faction people show as red or blue to non-faction people. The noto-system trumps the faction system in all ways except when it comes to opposing factions. No alliance changes this. Faction people cannot have any beneficial acts performed upon them by non-faction people. No alliance changes this. Non-faction people cannot enter designated faction zones. No alliance changes this. Non-faction people are subject to guard zones around town sigils. No alliance changes this.

My point is, that the "advantages" that people are complaining of are non-existent. Come down to it, a faction/non-faction alliance suffers disadvantages that faction/faction and non-faction/non-faction alliances do not.

I don't truly believe that anyone ever intended that faction people should only be allowed to do faction-based activities, nor that all activities they do should be considered "faction fighting". In removing faction/non-faction alliances, this is very much the stance that is being taken.

You somehow think this change will affect your plight. It wont! They will all just change to either being faction, or non-faction. You will be battling the exact same people, the exact same numbers, the exact same situations. All that will change is that either they will all be OJ or they will none be OJ, or, they will still have a mixed bag and just change who fields where. That is it.

 

[JC the Builder]

This is exactly the problem with the ZERGS on Atlantic. 99% of the Faction fighting on Atlantic is done away from the bases. Most of it is done at either Yew Gate or Champ locations. Because of this, the non-ally thing is a great idea and long overdue. If your guild wants to enjoy the benifits of being in factions and using faction items, you shouldn't have to rely on the crutch of having your allied non-faction guild there to bail you out.

How are they there to "bail you out"? They can't heal you. If the enemy is blue they can't attack without giving a count. You can have non-allies help you out just as much as if you were allied. I would really like someone to explain a situation where being allied is going to change a fight.

I only managed to get our guild into Factions because of the ability to ally with our main non-faction guild. Not being able to have people play together is going to cause a big issue. If we end up voting either Factions or not, we will probably be dropping out. We were there at the beginning to try and get things going and it is stupid to get forced out because of a change which is not even being explained. Half the people who see faction and non-faction guilds ally think we actually have the ability to perform beneficial acts on each other. We don't and never did.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

What you don't seem to get Ailish is while dealing with my example of the 20 people not in factions say you kill a majority of them and you have 9 people on your side, two people die on your team. While the other 20 are resing not in stat, and you res your guys who aren't in stat either, they THEN get drobed making it now a 20 on 7. If you don't understand how this is a beneifit you're not smart. They can drobe easier with the benifits of hiding in fields and in the AoE of people that would hit them if this alliance couldn't be made.

JC stop assuming everyone is blue, maybe your guild all plays like that but a majority of any raiding guild is red, so once again horrible example. Also you weren't there making factions big and booming.

You're just upset that you can no longer do this tactic of the faction/non faction split when the change goes in. Get use to it and take the easy route, just quit factions : )

 

[Ailish]

Truth, what YOU are not understanding is that this change WONT HELP YOU! Those stealthers will still be there to put you in stat! Those 20 others will still be there to kill you in the first place! So the stealthers change to hitting a smoke bomb and stealthing away after they RK you.

Your whole issue is that YOU (and yours) are taking a faction character to a NON FACTION fight, using your new "uber arties" to PvP in a NON FACTION manner, and you are getting statted because of it, and that makes you sad. Again, if you gave up your arties and used non faction characters to participate in this non faction fight, you wouldnt have this problem.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

No, you clearly don't get it. My whole example was the large group of 20 that you kill it has no affect because they just get resed up. If they are forced to play factions that whole group you just killed while only losing a player is now rendered useless. If you still don't understand how playing with non-faction is beneifical no one can help you. NOW you see why things are different, either they can't you put you in stat, OR their entire team just went into stat via my scenerio. Get use to it the flaw is getting fixed : ) I can't wait!

 

[Black Majick]

This is exactly the problem with the ZERGS on Atlantic. 99% of the Faction fighting on Atlantic is done away from the bases. Most of it is done at either Yew Gate or Champ locations. Because of this, the non-ally thing is a great idea and long overdue. If your guild wants to enjoy the benifits of being in factions and using faction items, you shouldn't have to rely on the crutch of having your allied non-faction guild there to bail you out.

QFT

 

[Ailish]

And I can't wait to hear you whine that you are STILL getting RK'd by OJ's when you are in a fight against 20 non-faction persons. Its not going to change. When people decided to take their faction characters out away from faction areas, this was the natural result.

Guess what? I was RK'd by a stealth OJ while doing a champ spawn before the new arties were introduced. I handnt even been killed in a raid! I was killed by Barracoon. I didnt cry about it, not even that stealth OJs are the evil. I went on with my business, understanding that I put myself in that position by taking my faction character to do a champ spawn.

 

[JC the Builder]

JC stop assuming everyone is blue, maybe your guild all plays like that but a majority of any raiding guild is red, so once again horrible example. Also you weren't there making factions big and booming.

You're just upset that you can no longer do this tactic of the faction/non faction split when the change goes in. Get use to it and take the easy route, just quit factions : )

I am not assuming anything. You are making hypothetical situations which I haven't seen happen.

Right now we are the second largest faction guild on Atlantic (125), outnumbering the largest dedicated guild (113). If we did end up going all factions we would outnumber nearly all the faction guilds on the shard combined (373 of us vs 350 of top 5 guilds). And you want to complain about "zerg" then?

So either we drop out of Factions and activity plummets or we join completely and vastly outnumber the competition. Or we could keep things the way they are are have things sort of balanced.

 

[kentuckyjoe]

JC, I seriously applaud all the work and effort you and your guild put into trying to get the Faction Event going on Atlantic before the changes went live. If everything had worked out, it would have been a great event. What I say below is not meant as a rant against you or your guild. Its just the things that all of us on Atlantic that follow Fel activities have witnessed ever since the Faction talk started late last year.

I also remember you saying that you and your guild were not going to partake in it because of another guild(we on Atlantic know who) using their non faction characters to turn the tides in the fighting. Everyone knew going in to that event and everything afterwards that every guild was going to do what gave them the best advantage, so I can't blame those guys for what they did. There goal was to win at all costs, and they ended up owning Atlantic Factions for awhile.

Once the faction scene leveled off again and everyone started gimping out there suits with all the easily available faction gear, the scene on Atlantic took a major shift from one zerg to another.

Now, most of the other guilds run primarily faction characters, but your guild still maintains the largest zerg on the shard and when you are active at spawns, the vast majority of your crew will be on non-faction characters. With all the different incarnations of other zerg guilds rising and falling over the last 4-5 months, playing primarily faction characters, your guild has remained reliant on the alliance between your faction and non faction guild.

Yes, the non faction guild can't perform benificial acts on the faction members, but when you have 20 non faction and 5 faction members at a spawn going against another guild with 10-15 faction members and only 2-5 non factions, which team will be at the biggest dissadvantage because of stat loss?

My personal belief is that if you are going to be in a faction guild, the only guilds you can be allied to are guilds in your faction. This way, factions become more of a stand alone system that comes with the added risk and challenge of playing without the benefits of passing through non-faction fields, area of effect spells, and other things. If you are going to be in factions, you should be prepared to work with other guilds in your faction and not have to rely on your non faction characters.

In regards to communicating, most guilds rely on Ventrillo or Team Speak so alliance chat is not a big issue when it comes to large scale fighting.

 

[GL_Seller]

You realize that faction people can heal and res non faction people who have flagged? Thats a bonus.

Flat otu if u want to ****ing ally chat with these ppl join factions. If not just use vent. I love how its so easy for others to join factions to kill these people but there allys who yall are crying about arent forced to join.

As for the stealther analogy your spot on. As for ailish explain this to me. You say i can just as easily res kill them on a normal character. Your right i can the only difference if i res kill them they dont go into stat.

This was my FOF question i Love that they are fixing this bull****. Those who are allied are using bugs as they stated awhile ago they made it so faction guilds werent able ot ally non faction ones.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

LOL how terrible are you, you died to barracoon? It stands in place all you have to do in order to not die is take one step away.

I see that reading is not a strong point of yours. Go back and re-read to where I said I have NOT had this happen to ME, but I have seen this tactic. I don't get killed by this pathetic tactic, I'm just glad they are fixing the flaw since it was not intended : )

Good luck with barracoon though, that champ that stays in place is one tough cookie.

 

[kelmo]

JC... This is going to hit Siege pretty bad too. While I am no longer in any guild or alliance, I do speak from experience.

Yes, on Siege there is some bleed over in battle. Not nearly as much as you would think though. Perhaps it happens more than I know as well.

What I do know is most folks in the non faction side of this type of alliance on Siege are non combatants. This will tear some groups up something terrible.

Just saying.

 

[Ailish]

Yep, I sure did die to him, on a char that did not even have GM skills at the time (spawns are a great place to gain skills), nor ANY arties to speak of, and I am big enough to admit it, just as I am big enough to admit I was killed by a stealth OJ.

The funny part is is WAS intended as best I can tell, and it has just been recently that they have jack-knifed this position.

At any rate, fact remains that you and I will not agree on this, and there is no point in continuing the argument. You are welcome to your opinion and I am welcome to mine.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

You don't have to agree with me, however the majority of the people posting in this thread do, and that's what counts : )

At any rate good luck with that champ though, I do realize moving one step away is a difficult task indeed!

 

[Ailish]

At any rate good luck with that champ though, I do realize moving one step away is a difficult task indeed!

Way to show your maturity! Yes, it is, in fact, a difficult task on a noob char that has 60 dex, 90 HP and is surrounded by side spawn. Fathom that. At least I have the guts to take such a char, and factioned to boot, to a spawn and not cry when I die (oh, and to FINISH killing the champ ALONE, while in stat)

Anyway, obviously you feel the need to be petty and childish. Congrats to you.

 

[Kat]

All I can say is that keeping a faction/non-faction guild from allying will NOT do a damn thing to keep non-factioners from participating in faction battles, but it will DAMN SURE serve to alienate one part of the guild from the other. Unfortunately, those that will get alienated are those who DO NOT participate in faction battles and those who do not use Vent.

I'll be the first to admit that it irks me to see blues interfering in a faction battle, but I urge the devs to find some other way to minimize this, rather than force an alienation of guild members.

Or at least find another alternative for us Siege folks. The guild chat feature is what we want/need to preserve.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Way to show your maturity! Yes, it is, in fact, a difficult task on a noob char that has 60 dex, 90 HP and is surrounded by side spawn. Fathom that. At least I have the guts to take such a char, and factioned to boot, to a spawn and not cry when I die (oh, and to FINISH killing the champ ALONE, while in stat)

Anyway, obviously you feel the need to be petty and childish. Congrats to you.

As I said reading clearly is not a strong point for you. I never died to this situation but I guess that's a good defense just avoid what I was saying and be upset because you probably partake in said set up of faction/non-faction alliance. If you can't kill a champ I'd probably not do factions if I were you, at least that champ stands still, unlike all the oranges. But good luck once again on that defense of moving one tile away, that tricky tricky defense : )

 

[FrejaSP]

I have to agree with the other Siege players, this is very bad for Siege.

Special because PvP'ers in non factions guilds have a big disadvantage if fighting factions guilds.

My guild is a RP Evil guild, a outlaws guild. We really don't want to be in faction as we will attack travelers and others who cross our way.

It do not matter if our target is faction or non faction.

We will also be attacked of fastion players. This fights have nothing to do with faction and do not interrupt factions fights about town controll as we will stay out of this fights.

We was forced to make a faction guild too, allied to our main guild as our hard core PvP'er have zero chance to put up with enemies in upper factions items and we could not kill them to loot the items and get same advantage.

I can accept no alliances between faction and non faction but remove this upper bactions items from Siege first!!

I don't want my guild splitted in a faction and a non faction guild but I can't have all in faction and I can't have all in non faction as it is now.
We have alot low skilled chars and crafters too, they will never survive in faction.

Let me have my brigands, vampires, pirates and other outlaws back in the main guild, remove the disadvantage we have vs faction enemies and stop trying to force us to join faction.

 

[WarUltima]

Two ways of doing this. 1st is to make them unable to ally each other, 2nd is make them able to ally each other but HARMFUL EFFECTS/Friendly fire between faction and non-faction allies should still exist.

Even on ATL where zergs mean everything you DO see guilds using bluebies/reds non-faction chars to cover for their faction chars for easy risk-free gank. The most commonly seem is blue/red dismounts and oranges swarm in and get the kill shot. Or a RED NON-Faction mages fielding everywhere, even if you drop him he gets rezzed and be back in seconds while all their faction zerglings get to enjoy the benefits of the fields.

People that are against this change is most likely in a guild where using the tactics of the lame risk-free "mixed notoriety" pvp.

Sme of you commented on honest and more hardcore straight faction PvP guild being dumb for rezzing at locations where they MIGHT get stat shotted, while the enemy blue/red mages and dismounters thats COVERING for their softcore factioneers can get their rezzes from both of their faction AND non-faction friends INSTANTLY ANYTIME ANYWHERE with zero chance of getting stat'ed because they are NOT in faction.

And you really trying to deny the "benefits" those nonfaction friends of yours can support you with?

 

[zared of napa]

This is exactly the problem with the ZERGS on Atlantic. 99% of the Faction fighting on Atlantic is done away from the bases. Most of it is done at either Yew Gate or Champ locations. Because of this, the non-ally thing is a great idea and long overdue. If your guild wants to enjoy the benifits of being in factions and using faction items, you shouldn't have to rely on the crutch of having your allied non-faction guild there to bail you out.

The same Guilds will still be attacking.Its not a faction fight if the guilds are at yew gate, in despise ,doing a harry I have never once asked or will i ever ask my non faction freinds to come to a stronghold to help us fight.they cant rez me heal me or help in a faction fight.

Faction or not its just 2 guild fighting together.

The only way they wont fight together is if non faction people could not attack faction people regardless if they are red or blue.and that idea is just dumb

 

[Ailish]

WarUltima - you reference "softcore factioneers". And what, pray tell, are you? I have yet to see you say anything about "In the City of Brit while trying to invade the base" or "At the Minax stronghold". No. You are saying "At Yew Gate" and no doubt also "In dungeons".

Anyone who joins factions JUST for the arties is the one that is a softcore factioneer. You people just dont get it! You guys are complaining because YOU want to go "hunt points" at the gate, in a NONFACTION ZONE, but you want the same benefits as being in a faction zone. It doesnt work that way!

while the enemy blue/red mages and dismounters thats COVERING for their softcore factioneers can get their rezzes from both of their faction AND non-faction friends INSTANTLY ANYTIME ANYWHERE with zero chance of getting stat'ed because they are NOT in faction.

First, non-faction people CANNOT rez faction people. The just cant! Bene acts still apply in an alliance! Second, if you kill the faction person, they are still in stat! No alliance is going to change that!

These people will play and fight together in their CURRENT DYNAMIC (some faction, some non) NO MATTER WHAT! Even if they have to drop their alliance, they are still going to be allied!

 

[Kratos Aurion]

I think people are missing the main point and dragging out fights by definition.

The problem is is that PvP guilds are abusing the system to gain a field advantage in spawn/fighting locations. This was already pointed out earlier. In this case, a faction guild allied to a regular guild with reds will bare no consequences in small, cramped pvp areas such as spawns.

The issue some people are trying to make is that this coherently does not effect faction fighting. That is the fallacy. PvP can happen anywhere, including strongholds and champs. While non-factioneers wont be able to enter strongholds, that doesn't guarantee that they won't be fighting side-by-side later on in the game in some other random area.

So regardless any "small" benefit that two alliances between a faction/non-faction guild have over other guilds is not of the norms and should be classified as out of balance.

First, non-faction people CANNOT rez faction people. The just cant! Bene acts still apply in an alliance! Second, if you kill the faction person, they are still in stat! No alliance is going to change that!

Faction "resing" was changed a few publishes ago. The rulesettings may not apply to Fel though. I'm not sure if thats what you were getting at or not.

As for stat loss. It only occurs from faction related deaths. If you're allied to a non-faction guild and someone drops you, you don't go into stat loss. So yes an alliance would prove extremely beneficial.

 

[Førsaken]

Why are faction guilds allowed to be allied with non faction guilds? This is a huge imbalance on the fighting field.

They shouldn’t be able to, this is a bug and will be squashed appropriately. If your faction guild is allied with a non-faction guild, please drop the alliance before we do.
-Draconi

The funny thing about majority of this thread is that most of you are dictating what this above quote implies. Says nothing about faction base fighting "inside" the faction zone, champ spawn fighting, yew gate fighting, or anything specific.

What is there not to get? In any of the above fighting scenes, you can and will have non-faction people helping. Whether it be fielding off base entrances, creating distractions of any sort, dismounting, etc.

So, why let them be green? Why let them avoid all Area of Effect (AoE) and field spells? Why let them be healed/rezzed if they flag or get flagged in combat? They should have 2 min flag cooldown before any factioner can do bene acts.

Obvious reasons for wanting to keep alliances; Crafters, PvMers, and ones having tea parties. It's called, Ventrilo and/Teamspeak.

Anyhow, it'd help to keep things more general, instead of crying just one point.

Location: Siege
Opinion: Who cares, let them do it, but we all know there are worse PvP imbalances that should be worked on first.

 

[JC the Builder]

The whole area of effect argument for preventing alliances is invalid. Let me explain.

When Factions was first introduced there was no such thing as friendly fire. If you cast Earthquake, it hit everyone on your screen. If someone walked in your poison field, even a guild mate (or yourself for that matter), they were poisoned. Due to griefing and general issues trying to fight, friendly fire was enabled so you couldn't hit blues anymore. This was directly because of factions. No longer would area effects negatively affect blue players.

Fast forward to today where a sizable portion of Felucca players are now murderers. Friendly fire issues have once again come up with Factions becoming active again. A work around for this was for everyone to be in the same alliance. This was disabled due to an exploit being abused by guilds which let them cross-heal faction players while not in factions. Obviously this was a bad bug and the "quick fix" was to disable the ability for faction guilds to ally non-faction guilds. So prior to this there was no issue with these alliances, it was only because of a bug. So instead of fixing the bug the developers are just being unfair and forcing players to choose between playing in Factions or not. Which is unfortunate because of all the good changes recently (such as the removal of beneficial acts in Trammel) which promote more open play style.

UO is supposed to be an open world environment and dictating who can ally who without a good reason (such as two factions allying) is against the game philosophy.

 

[QueenZen]

UO is supposed to be an open world environment and dictating who can ally who without a good reason (such as two factions allying) is against the game philosophy.
--------------------

QFT !

To have the game dictate forced separations of allied guilds, due to exploits and bugs which they maybe can or won't or can not fix.....in end punishes once more the decent players, instead of fixing or punishing the exploiters and costing them, customers.

 

[QueenZen]

And Sakie when ALL the crafters, pvmers, and yes roleplaying teaparties LEAVE Siege cuz EA wants to *dictate* whom our own guilds can be allied with there ....then yall can just play with yourselves, which will no doubt make yall happier to play.. on an even EMPTIER SHARD called Siege !

 

[Førsaken]

The whole area of effect argument for preventing alliances is invalid. Let me explain.

When Factions was first introduced there was no such thing as friendly fire. If you cast Earthquake, it hit everyone on your screen. If someone walked in your poison field, even a guild mate (or yourself for that matter), they were poisoned. Due to griefing and general issues trying to fight, friendly fire was enabled so you couldn't hit blues anymore. This was directly because of factions. No longer would area effects negatively affect blue players.

Fast forward to today where a sizable portion of Felucca players are now murderers. Friendly fire issues have once again come up with Factions becoming active again. A work around for this was for everyone to be in the same alliance. This was disabled due to an exploit being abused by guilds which let them cross-heal faction players while not in factions. Obviously this was a bad bug and the "quick fix" was to disable the ability for faction guilds to ally non-faction guilds. So prior to this there was no issue with these alliances, it was only because of a bug. So instead of fixing the bug the developers are just being unfair and forcing players to choose between playing in Factions or not. Which is unfortunate because of all the good changes recently (such as the removal of beneficial acts in Trammel) which promote more open play style.

UO is supposed to be an open world environment and dictating who can ally who without a good reason (such as two factions allying) is against the game philosophy.

Great story! I'm sorry crutch-pvpers such as yourself, feel the need to have non-faction pvpers along side them, to have the edge over the situation.

Where in the FoF quote does he state two (same) factions cannot ally? It doesn't.

Sorry my points make sense, I'll try to tone it down next time I step into a UHall thread.



p.s. If you or someone were to propose that they allow alliances with non-faction guilds, but put in the "Friendly Fire", the bene acts on flagged non-factioners, etc, I wouldn't see a problem. In fact, PROBLEM SOLVED. But, crutch-pvpers will still cry.