Tweaking the current murder system: idea #28532553233

[Gellor]

Before you open your mouth to reply to this thread, take a minute to read the title: TWEAKING THE CURRENT MURDER SYSTEM Please try to keep all replies to methods to tweak the current system and not rants about the current system or complete overhauls.

I don't think anyone would argue that the current system is perfect but it does partially succeed at what a murder system should do: identify people who go and kill blue characters, punish them, and allow people someway to maintain blue status in the event they opsied to go red.

Let us establish that a murderer is one who kills a blue character no matter the reason: raiding spawns, defending a spawn, macroer killer, whatever. Discussion for why a red killed should be in another thread.

As mentioned earlier, there are three parts to the murder system(current system identified in parenthesis):

1. Identify who is killing blues (turn them red after five murder counts)
2. Punish them for killing blues (bar from Tram and no buying from vendors)
3. Allow a way to remove counts (sit for 40 hours... attended or not)

FLAW #1The murder count removal system allows people to ping pong going red to blue. The issue with this ping ponging is the system would fail to identify habitual killers who won't keep the char red. There are two potential fixes on this:

1. Establish a permanent ping pong counter. This would simply be a counter that keeps track of the number of times a player goes red and will NEVER decrement. After the ping pong counter hits ten(random number), the character is permanently red.
2. Establish a permanent total murder counter. This would simply be a counter that keeps track of the number of murders and will NEVER decrement. After the permanent murder counter hit 500(random number), the character is permanently red.

FLAW #2aBarring from Fel and not buying from vendors. With the availability of four or more other character slots, this is almost trivial. Add in guildmates, the not buying from vendors is a worthless punishment. To this end, I'd propose an additional punishment:

1. Raising insurance costs and payouts to double. This would be a bit more of an inconvenience for the reds. It would also create an incentive to attack reds. Kill a red, get 600 gold per item instead of 300 gold.

FLAW #2bBarring a red from going to Tram. The biggest complaint by reds I've seen about this is "my best character can't get to the Tram style events". I could see allowing the following tweak to appease those:

1. Allow reds in Tram but they get half gold and no luck bonus for any loot rolled on. They stay red and no beneficial acts may be performed on them(ie heals and rezzes) Maybe this is not harsh enough. I'm not sure but seems like a good will gesture for those potential returning reds.

Flaw #3Unattended 40 hour murder count removal. This is not a penalty especially for those who have multiple account. This system has been complained about by both murderers and blues. Plus removal of murder counts should be considered a penalty. I can see removing this system entirely and inserting two systems:

1. Murder count removal quest... this would be quest chain that would not involve anything that could be bought. I think something as "complex" as the human to elf or elf to human quests would be almost prime. It should have multiple start points as well as having all the parts be random. The random start points would prevent people camping and killing reds. The random parts would prevent scripting of the quest. This would be a once a day quest but should take between 30 minutes to an hour to complete. The murderer should not gain anything from the quest aside from removal of one murder count. If this was implemented with a permanent murder counter or ping pong counter as proposed above, these would NOT be decreased.
2. Murderer reprieve quest.. this would be a HUGE quest chain to remove all murder counts. It should be only doable once per account. It should be only doable by the character in question. Any help would nullify any work done on that particular chain. In addition to removing all counts, it should further penalize the murderer. Something like cut 20 points out per skill and 30% out of stats(roughly 75 points worth) Once the quest is started, soul stones would not be usable.

In parting, please try to keep replies on the topic of tweaking the current system and not ranting about it nor saying it needs to be removed entirely.

 

[RichDC]

2things,

1) Reds arent barred from fel, there forced to stay in fel,

2) its idea 5897345629183

On a serious note, doesnt actually sound like that bad an idea in all honesty but, allowing reds into tram, if going to be allowed at all, should only be at certain times. When a key event arc is in trammel for example. I agree that if they are they should be similar to factions of old (no bene acts) and they still are unable to buy from vendors...player run or npc...and ONLY allowed in trammel for the duration of the event, if they overstay there welcome(by say 10mins, should be enough time to recall out) they get guard whacked (even in the wilderness...maybe a new kinda guard NPC) and teleported back to fel, mirror location of guard whacking with there body freely lootable by anyone.

 

[Gellor]

1) Reds arent barred from fel, there forced to stay in fel,

I blame that typo on not enough coffee. Fixed

I like the sounds of that idea better than mine:bowdown:

FWIW, I don't think any of my mods are the end all or be all of tweaking the system but they do present something to discuss.

 

[ColterDC]

There is an easier, less complicated fix....Remove the color system.

With the exception of that trash hole known as Yew gate, Fel PvP is rarely ever about which color you are, and is always more about which faction/guild you belong to.

The whole red/blue system is really stupid considering the way the game is currently set up.

 

[Connor_Graham]

The red/blue system is years outdated and should be removed from the game entirely, with PvP being just that, PvP. Noto PK's are a perfect example of why this system no longer belongs, as they're just as guilty of killing "blues" as reds are, they're just dishonest about it.

Just my opinion anyway.

 

[Connor_Graham]

*sees the snow start to fall in hell*

*builds a snowman*

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Almost daily we can find discussions about unconsentual PvP in UO on public message boards. Some think that murdering other players is an essential part of the game (risk vs. reward), and those are mostly UO veterans. Others spend all their time in Trammel and do not want PvP, and those are called "Trammies". And a lot of players are somewhere in between. This debate is almost 10 years old. And still nobody has come up with a decent solution to favor both sides. Until today.

Read more about a revolutionary concept:
The Trammel/Felucca Dilemma

 

[Gellor]

Thanks for those wonderful replies that were on the topic of tweaking the current system rolleyes: I guess having a first and last sentence requesting all replies keeping on topic must have been invisible... oh wait, there they are... guess I can rule out that excuse rolleyes:

So, in an effort to try to get posts back on track, I'll ask again, within the current system of color coding people, how would you TWEAK it to make it work better?

The reason for trying to keep this to tweaks and NOT full overhaul is because anyone who has been around UO for any amount of time knows the odds of getting a full overhaul on anything is slim and none... while the odds of getting a tweak in a system are just a little better than slim

If you wish to discuss something other than TWEAKING the current system, please start your own thread for "The murder system sucks here is my full blow new idea" or "Gellor is a flaming newb" and don't drag this thread that way. Thanks in advance for cooperating with this request.

 

[ColterDC]

I'm going to start a thread asking why Gellor's avatar is a picture of what appears to be a sheep with a angry red guy coming out of its ass?

 

[hawkeye_pike]

The reason for trying to keep this to tweaks and NOT full overhaul is because anyone who has been around UO for any amount of time knows the odds of getting a full overhaul on anything is slim and none... while the odds of getting a tweak in a system are just a little better than slim

Tweaking doesn't improve the game much. Tweaking just shifts the dirt from one corner into the other. UO is a great game, but it has two or three major flaws, corpses we've been dragging around for years and which begin to stink more and more. Trammel/Felucca is one of them. If you want UO to be a revolutionary game again, you have to make revolutionary changes. Everything else is a waste of time.

 

[Warpig Inc]

A lightbulb moment i had on the other thread

Originally Posted by Warpig Inc
Put an NPC Quester at each of the champ spawns. A party that can cap at ten people can active the quester. The quester turns red letting everyone that comes by to know that a no item drop champ is being worked. The champ is done from start to finnish and each red in the party drops a count for number in the party. The NPC goes back to yellow and when that champ restarts, it is in Tram full item drop for that one quest completion.

Those full on Reds that deem theese players Traitor Reds can come in and put a foot in their butt reminding them what PVP stands for. Near the WBB can be a circle of statues that represents each of the champ areas. Fel and Tram WBB will each have this statue set. They are yellow at idle. The matching statue to a champ area turns red when the quest is activated. When the champ flips to Tram side it is blue for that one spawn.

This makes for a cummunity of reds that want to change. Then they can work just as hard for the blue lifebar as they did for the red. Blues can come in and show them what a PVM template does and tease them for another count. Players can come to an active red NPC champ and show their support and feelings about that parties actions. If the party fails to be the champs top looter they fail.

 

[WarUltima]

I like the jail idea but IMO your points should decay in jail even if you are not logged in.

Also a bigger gold sink that would wipe your record at the expense of X million which can be paid by anyone on your behave.

Being red should have discounted jail time/point counts due to the fact that you are going to be killed/caught a lot more often.

As for your history lessons, you missed some crucial points. There wasnt a flee timer so you can recall anytime. After the introduction of statloss for red death PKs were reduced but PKs/red names turned into a "hardcore" status for hardcore players. Its not easy to catch a good PK and a few of them would still run to wrong or decite and murder many people, and if people did form a resistance they can recall out anytime... now thats realistic.

Short term murder count goes away in 4 hour and long term goes away in 20. Anytime if you are killed as a red you take the statloss (statloss was HUGE back then skills takes months to train). And the "ping pong" effect was in place and would eventually turn you perma red if you do it too often.

Games have changed a lot. And I doubt there would be any complete overhall anyways.

 

[Beastmaster]

My tweaks

Slay one innocent - go to jail immediately after you are slain by anyone/anything. The account becomes unplayable on that shard other than logging in as that murderer and sitting in your cell for 30 real days. The 30 days can pass not logged in. After 30 days logged in or not the murderer is set free upon next login.

Harsh you say? Everyone will quit you say? I doubt it, but for once there would be some real consequences to being an antisocial miscreant.

If this system were put in place I'd be willing to go along with an instant 1 time reprieve for all current reds, which would be a red/blue choice at their first login after implementation.

 

[Connor_Graham]

My tweaks

Slay one innocent - go to jail immediately after you are slain by anyone/anything. The account becomes unplayable on that shard other than logging in as that murderer and sitting in your cell for 30 real days. The 30 days can pass not logged in. After 30 days logged in or not the murderer is set free upon next login.
.

That would end PvP in UO.

Why would there, or even should there, be consequences for participating in 100% consentual PvP, which is exactly what UO has?

Some people need to get over the past and realize it's the present so we can start moving into the future.

 

[Old Man of UO]

The red/blue system is years outdated and should be removed from the game entirely, with PvP being just that, PvP. Noto PK's are a perfect example of why this system no longer belongs, as they're just as guilty of killing "blues" as reds are, they're just dishonest about it.

Just my opinion anyway.

I think there should be a difference between PvP and Murder counts. Problem is, not sure there is an easy way to do that.

PvP is just that, both sides participating equally. No murder counts.

Murder is when the victim does not willing participate (all that Felucca vs Trammel rules aside). In most cases, miners and resource gatherers should be able to give counts.

Not sure how you could put in a PvP switch without putting in a lot of abuse potential.

 

[Gellor]

I think there should be a difference between PvP and Murder counts. Problem is, not sure there is an easy way to do that.

PvP is just that, both sides participating equally. No murder counts.

Very true... but such a system sort of exists right now: two willing guys not giving each other counts or to a greater extent factions. The larger issue is when outside parties decide to attack one or the other because they are red/gray.

As for the all or nothing approach, that is a good way to get nothing. By asking for "easy" tweaks to the current system, the odds GREATLY increase of something actually being done.

As for nub and his trammy rant, I play a red... I get killed while playing my blues... I have no problems with non-consensual PvP. So there is no trammy presenting ideas... just a red that is a bit dissatisfied with the current system rolleyes:

Now continuing the push, lets keep the focus on TWEAKS of the current system and not all these the system is broke posts that are still popping up.

 

[Old Man of UO]

...
Now continuing the push, lets keep the focus on TWEAKS of the current system and not all these the system is broke posts that are still popping up.

I think the SA publish will include changes to "zones" where there will be consensual and non-consensual combat areas... I don't remember how it was presented or the details, but wondering if that will be a "tweak" to the system.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Now continuing the push, lets keep the focus on TWEAKS of the current system and not all these the system is broke posts that are still popping up.

The problem is the system was outdated as soon as Tram was introduced. You can't "tweak" a PvP system that is no longer applicable to the current game, you can only remove and replace it with something that is.

 

[Beastmaster]

Reds don't want consensual PvP. They want to slaugther anyone they can, whenever they can, just because they are there. That is why Trammel was born. If you contrive a system for consensual PvP it will rarely be used. The Feluccans come here every week whining for more ways to draw Trammies to Fel or for access to be granted to Trammel.

They just don't get it. The Trammies don't want them! Period.

 

[WarUltima]

Many of my guildies started playing darkfall, seems to be fairly like old uo. Which from gathering their opinions darkfall is very "dark" and harsh. Darkfall is like UO without tram and item insurance and I doubt it will be successful compared to games like wow or eq. For the sole reason of the majority of the players aren't interested in "challenge" from other players. That's why wow has more pve servers than all pvp and rppvp servers combined.

Its hard to balance between "real time" player challenge and profit (as most players prefer carebear style of game play).

 

[Kaleb]

Only thing that needs fixed with the murder system is that reds need statloss again. todays Pk's know nothing of being RED in UO to them UO pvp is just another version of counterstrike. Classic shard!!!

 

[FrejaSP]

Perm red
- Ping Pong counts, think we still have them, you can max go back to blue 5 times, I never heard it was removed.

Punishment for reds
Some kind of punishment make PK's try to stay blue, that's bad as PK's should be red.
- Half gold and no luck bonus for any loot rolled on. This is a bad idea.

- Raising insurance costs and payouts to double. I don't like this payouts at all, and I don't see it will do any good.
I rather see murderers limit to 5 insured/blessed item and blue limit to 10 insured/blessed items (not counting books) Limit insurance for reds will make them worth killing, as they may drop a few nice items.
Limit insurance for blue will learn them not to run around as a loaded treasure chest who drop alot of insurance money and cost alot to reinsure.
Remove the payouts, it was a poor way to reward killing.

- No beneficial acts may be performed on them in Trammel(ie heals and rezzes), this is bad as it's not in Trammel they made their crim and as long they stay red so players know not to go to Fel with them, all is fine.

The 40 hours timer
I don't see a quest to remove murderer count is worth the dev time, just lower the 40 hours to 8 hours and don't let murderer count decay if you are in a house, in Trammel or you are a ghost. That will do alot to stop unattented macroing of counts.

Reds in Trammel
- Can't go there with a fresh murderer count (30 mins ingame timer), that will mean you have to stay in Fel, if you just killed someone
- Can't buy from vendors in Trammel (NPC as well as PC vendors) but let them buy from vendors in Felucca.

I really don't see why alot of punishment is needed as there only are one facet for reds to play their way. Even if you let them go to Trammel, they will feel punished as they can't kill that annoying guy who keep <inset randum annoying action done of some trammel players>

Tweak or Nerf
You said TWEAK but you posted a NERF of the system. Only a perm blue or someone wanting to ping pong can see it as a tweak.

 

[FrejaSP]

Many of my guildies started playing darkfall, seems to be fairly like old uo. Which from gathering their opinions darkfall is very "dark" and harsh. Darkfall is like UO without tram and item insurance and I doubt it will be successful compared to games like wow or eq. For the sole reason of the majority of the players aren't interested in "challenge" from other players. That's why wow has more pve servers than all pvp and rppvp servers combined.
Its hard to balance between "real time" player challenge and profit (as most players prefer carebear style of game play).

That may be correct for US WOW servers but sure not for EU WOW servers, in EU, there is more PvP and RPPvP servers than Normal and RP servers so you are not correct, players want challenge but they hate losing their best gear or alot of money on each dead.

 

[Violence]

There is an easier, less complicated fix....Remove the color system.

With the exception of that trash hole known as Yew gate, Fel PvP is rarely ever about which color you are, and is always more about which faction/guild you belong to.

The whole red/blue system is really stupid considering the way the game is currently set up.

100% Agreed

 

[FrejaSP]

Only thing that needs fixed with the murder system is that reds need statloss again. todays Pk's know nothing of being RED in UO to them UO pvp is just another version of counterstrike. Classic shard!!!

Stat loss was the worse thing ever added to UO, as it destroyed your char and forced you to use lots of time to rebuild chars. Only the cheaters would be able to play with stat loss.
The RP reds, who would not cheat to stay alive and cheat to rebuild chars unattented, just gave up playing UO.

Siege had never had stat loss and noone there ask for it.

 

[RichDC]

How about adding a system additional to insurance, where a red must pay upon death determined on how many kills they have?

Could create a nice gold sink (the money doesnt go to anyone else) and may make people think twice about going red.

For this to work though it should be either done in one of 2 ways,

a) Low amount of gold per murder count(once gone red)...say 10gp per for the first 45(50 total murders), 100 for murders 51-1000, 1000 for all kills above 1000.

b) Wipe all counts and make it a set amount of gold for every kill past 5, say 1000. (couldnt have some players with 10000counts paying 10,000,000 on there first death, that would be a stupid gold sink!!!)

 

[Old Man of UO]

How about adding a system additional to insurance, where a red must pay upon death determined on how many kills they have?

Could create a nice gold sink (the money doesnt go to anyone else) and may make people think twice about going red.

For this to work though it should be either done in one of 2 ways,

a) Low amount of gold per murder count(once gone red)...say 10gp per for the first 45(50 total murders), 100 for murders 51-1000, 1000 for all kills above 1000.

b) Wipe all counts and make it a set amount of gold for every kill past 5, say 1000. (couldnt have some players with 10000counts paying 10,000,000 on there first death, that would be a stupid gold sink!!!)

Not a good idea in general... too easy to abuse, and too many players with so much money it would be easy, too easy, to wipe counts.\

What would happen if a red removed all his/her gold from the bank and purposely killed him or herself? Where would the payment come from? Would the cost just be avoided?

 

[RichDC]

Its not a system for burning counts, its a system of additional insurance.

If the person cant afford the gold then they cannot res until they spend the normal game time to burn 1 count.

It doesnt matter how they die, when they die they are charged. No-one gets the gold (just like when you die PvM no one gets the gold)

 

[Old Man of UO]

Okay, gottcha now... I misunderstood the meaning of your post.

I don't have a red, but suspect that would drive many of the hard core reds to quit rather than live with that kind of penalty.

 

[IanJames]

The 40 hours timer
just lower the 40 hours to 8 hours and don't let murderer count decay if you are in a house, in Trammel or you are a ghost. That will do alot to stop unattented macroing of counts.

I agree with this. Almost everyone ghosts their time to get rid of their counts.

 

[Velvathos]

I disagree with some of your post, I can see where some of it is coming from though.. I think the entire system really just needs revamped..

I kinda like the idea of ping pong murder system, I don't want a perma-red murder system, but you wouldn't simply burn off counts anymore..... Here is what I propose..

- Add in a alignment bar that is located in your paperdoll or something, this alignment bar is not a percentage but goes from say a negative 200 to a positive 200.. I would only go with around 10 or so, because a high one could be abused, with a 200 positive alignment, means you could kill 200 people without going red, so we will say 5 of 10

- When you kill blue players the alignment score drops and when you hit a negative alignment, you become "red" So as soon as you kill a player when you have a neutral alignment of 0, as soon as it become -1, you are red get back to 0 and you become blue.

- When you are red and when you kill other reds, grays, etc, the alignment score goes back up to a positive one.

- A positive alignment, say a max one, would increase your benefits, buy from NPC's cheaper, less insurance, more resources, etc.... And when your alignment score goes negative, your benefits decrease more and more is it lowers.

Changes to flagging system

I don't like the current idea of flagging, I think someone who does a hit and run should have a 10 second timer or so before they turn blue again and if they hit someone else during that 10 minute period, they go gray for 2-5 minutes, however much it is now..

I also like the idea of only going to gray to the person you attack.

I think these ideas will work best, someone quote me other wise..

 

[WarUltima]

The system is even more abusive than ever...
Macro/Script killing rezzing some red over and over and go to +200(or any amount) and feel free to murder 200(or any amount) people before you have to macro/script this again? No...

 

[mr.blackmage]

a better system would just be having everyone pvp flagged if they have performed an agressive (or criminal) act within the last 48 hours. 48 is an arbitrary number, but you get the idea. Attack another player, whether red or blue, and be flagged for 2 days. Healing another player that received damage from another player will pvp flag you. Loot a corpse, you will be flagged. Then leave the murder system in, institute larger penalties, and crafters/miners/pvmers won't have to worry about it. There would of course be griefing against pvmers (trying to provoke an attack) but that's no different than what happens in tram anyways.

 

[BardMal]

I'm going to start a thread asking why Gellor's avatar is a picture of what appears to be a sheep with a angry red guy coming out of its ass?

I always thought that was Gellor peeking around his date and showing us his "O" face.

On topic, I don't really have a problem with people "ping ponging" counts. To me, it shows that at least they consider each murder they commit, and calculate it's value against the cost.

The ones that really used to burn me up were the Noto counts I received. When I first went red from defending myself against "pvp" encounters that turned me gray through exploited game mechanics, I felt violated.

In your outline, someone could conceivably turn my char gray and eventually render my bard/mage perma red, without me ever actually killing anyone. it would take awhile, but I've been playing ten years. It's not inconcievable over the next ten, if I enter fel and participate in champ spawns on a regular basis.

 

[Velvathos]

The system is even more abusive than ever...
Macro/Script killing rezzing some red over and over and go to +200(or any amount) and feel free to murder 200(or any amount) people before you have to macro/script this again? No...

Well, we could just do +10 and -10 then.. It was just a random number.. I don't see the system getting abused as much as the current one.. I think the system I propose would give more people a reason to go and fight one another and give more reason to fight in Felucca, seeing as you could not burn off murder counts, but still get rid of them.. Sure it could be abused, but murder counts should not be hard to get rid of, the system I propose if done right, would require you to actively kill people.. What they could do..

It would not work in your own guild, and would only work on ONE character at a time, every so hours/days..... Kind of like how a enemy faction member is worth like 1 point every so hours or days.. This same would go for this.. Therefore, that abuse is gone..

 

[WarUltima]

What's more punishing? Current system that force you to play/banksit for 48 hours per count or log on a red char on a sepreate account and kill it once? That's 23 to 24 murder count burnt per day. Even if you made it per day base, its still a count per 24 hours. Which is still double the efficiency and won't punish you to be logged/locked onto that character.

If you want the fighting factor in burning counts I purpose another idea... as soon as you murder someone you will turn red instantly and will prevent you from returning to tram for facet for 20 minutes on top of the 48 hour bank sitting time. The red status will not decay unless you are logged on and alive.

To combat noto pks you should be making the punishment more severe. And noto pks are then turned red and force them to fight (what they do) and giving then the status of a temporary murder(which is what they are trying to avoid). Force them to stay in fel with a status that most of them feel too harsh to live with like a stat-loss for none factioneers doing cheapshots in order to help their faction friends. 2 birds in 1 stone.

 

[ColterDC]

I always thought that was Gellor peeking around his date and showing us his "O" face.

:bowdown:

Unless Gellor answers my question, I guess we'll have to go with your description of his avatar.

 

[Velvathos]

What's more punishing? Current system that force you to play/banksit for 48 hours per count or log on a red char on a sepreate account and kill it once? That's 23 to 24 murder count burnt per day. Even if you made it per day base, its still a count per 24 hours. Which is still double the efficiency and won't punish you to be logged/locked onto that character.

See now, under my system, you can actually play and take off your counts, I would agree with anyone that burning off murder counts is tedious, boring and just plain sucks.... It is why I do not go red, I have done so in the past, so I just did what everyone else did, I sat at the moongate dead.. I think we should actually be required to play to burn off a count..... But I think we should not have to wait, this is why most people sit at the moongate dead or macro and sit in their houses, I do not blame them, cause it is very tedious to burn off counts.. Under my system the wait would be gone, people would actually play to burn off their counts, 1 count per person per day, so you could burn off multiple counts in a day depending on how many reds you kill, it would be in the form of alignment with your race instead of the murder count system..

 

[RichDC]

See now, under my system, you can actually play and take off your counts, I would agree with anyone that burning off murder counts is tedious, boring and just plain sucks.... It is why I do not go red, I have done so in the past, so I just did what everyone else did, I sat at the moongate dead.. I think we should actually be required to play to burn off a count..... But I think we should not have to wait, this is why most people sit at the moongate dead or macro and sit in their houses, I do not blame them, cause it is very tedious to burn off counts.. Under my system the wait would be gone, people would actually play to burn off their counts, 1 count per person per day, so you could burn off multiple counts in a day depending on how many reds you kill, it would be in the form of alignment with your race instead of the murder count system..

So...let me get this right, your saying to burn of counts you kill reds??

So...to stop being deemed a murderer you murder, ok ok...now...WTF are you on!!!

Ignore that lil comical line i thought id chuck in and think!!!

I could quite easily(well no that easily) kill 30reds a day thus burning 30 counts a day???

i have 2 acounts one account has almost all reds on it, so i could kill that account and burn 6counts without leaving my house!!!

Think about things before you post.

 

[RichDC]

Sure it could be abused, but murder counts should not be hard to get rid of,
..

Yes they should...For gods sake man think before you post!

 

[ColterDC]

I think he has been playing too much Darkfall, since his entire idea seems like a very basic implementation of what they use in that game.

 

[IAMTHEWHITERABIT]

Fel should be like the wild west. There should be next to no penelty for being red, other than having to stay in fel. The real abuse are the gaurd hugging blues that bounce back and forth from red to blue. there should be no system to burn counts of at all. So every time you kill a bule your one step away from leading a life as a red. I would also like to see most of the guard zones removed with the exception of a few gates and towns. There is no reason for a trammie to come to fel other than power scrolls. all other items can be obtained in tram. So you say you want to work less and get more for your mining and resource gathering. Oh well you go to fel at your own risk. If you don't want to be pk stay in tram

 

[Old Man of UO]

... So you say you want to work less and get more for your mining and resource gathering. Oh well you go to fel at your own risk. If you don't want to be pk stay in tram

Not this same old argument again. Some people are so narrow minded... there are other reasons to go to Felucca than PvP, and double resources.

That's like saying if you PvP, then stay in Felucca. You can get everything you want in Felucca, so don't ask for access to Trammel.

 

[IAMTHEWHITERABIT]

Not this same old argument again. Some people are so narrow minded... there are other reasons to go to Felucca than PvP, and double resources.

That's like saying if you PvP, then stay in Felucca. You can get everything you want in Felucca, so don't ask for access to Trammel.

And I do, with the ecception of luna, which I bring my blue crafter. Please tell me what other reasons you would go to fel, other than power scrolls and double resource, that you can't get on tram.

"Not this same old argument again. Some people are so narrow minded". Its the same tired old whining and crying of the trammies. "Its not fair that they get double resorces and scrolls".

Its really simple, stay in tram and i wont tell you what to do with peerless stuff, or doom, or any of that other junk, and you stay out of fel and leave the killers alone.

 

[Old Man of UO]

...
Its really simple, stay in tram and i wont tell you what to do with peerless stuff, or doom, or any of that other junk, and you stay out of fel and leave the killers alone.

It's really simple. You want to tell other people what to do and where they can go. Sorry, but you don't make the rules no mater how much you would like to.

And really, your rant aside, this isn't what this thread was about... now shoo!

 

[Geoffery]

It's really simple. You want to tell other people what to do and where they can go. Sorry, but you don't make the rules no mater how much you would like to.

And really, your rant aside, this isn't what this thread was about... now shoo!

But it is the exact same thing everyone here is trying to do... 'They're red! They killed a blue! The punishment isnt enough, we have to do something about it!'

3/4ths of the 'suggestions' here are not tweaks for the murder system (which is to say the non-faction pvp system), but are tirades about how reds should be punished. I've seen few a few ideas that were thought out to address pvp as the system that it should be, but most were an anti-red rant.

If there was a true pvp system in place, there would be fewer of those nasty reds running around. We'd have a place/system to do what we enjoy. What we have currently is fel. Nothing more, nothing less. And I doubt few reds are lamenting about how they're not allowed into tram.

Do I have the answers to the actual problem? Nope, not a clue. But I'm also not about to say one style is 'wrong' and another is 'right.'

 

[Old Man of UO]

But it is the exact same thing everyone here is trying to do... 'They're red! They killed a blue! The punishment isnt enough, we have to do something about it!'
...

It's not exactly the same thing. Some are red through honest PvP, but others play the "if it is Blue, kill it!" mentality, and so far there isn't a system that can deal with both types fairly. I think UO should allow for the first style of red player, and severely punish the second. The $64 question, is how?

 

[WarUltima]

If its blue kill it mentality? Rofl seems like you don't really know the life of being an indiscriminated murder.

Its more lile "if its moving, and I don't like it. Kill it." I don't care if its an innocent, criminal or another murder. If he's in on my screen and I can help it within games relugation I would kill it. Your opinion of pink beautiful world filled with flowers and zero risk might hold true in trammal but not necessary in fel.

You can't judge if a play style is wrong thus punishing it. Its people like you who want anything you don't like punished/removed that made the game split into real world land and safety zero risk land.

Not saying its bad to have trammal don't get me wrong. With your own logic when I play on tram hunting my monsters minding my own business and another friendly tram player comes up and started to attack my mob that I brought down to half life, my champ that me and my friends works hard thru 4 stages of spawn for, the blaze cu I am trying to tame while there's jack I can do about it... so all tram rules are just ****ed up they should be punished for? So trammel play style is wrong make them lose stats and skills now!!!1111eleven! Tram has some of the most jacked up player griefing I've seem to date, and do you see me asking for a severe punishment for those friendly killing stealing pos trammies?

You have no right to decide if a playstyle is wrong. Live with it like I have to bare with tram player griefing (zero counter and I can't even kill them) when I do play on tram. Othwepperwise stay in your safty net.

 

[Beastmaster]

You can't judge if a play style is wrong thus punishing it. Its people like you who want anything you don't like punished/removed that made the game split into real world land and safety zero risk land.

So Fel is supposed to be the "real world land" in your opinion huh? Well what do you think happens to indiscriminate killers in the real world?

As to the actual reality, this is not the "real world" but a game world. Every game world has rules. Every game world has people bound and determined to do all they can to circumvent those rules. Every game world has people wishing they could change the rules to suit themselves.

The current rules of this game world allow you to attempt to kill other players anywhere in Fel. The rules provide only one deterrent to that behavior, restricting those that kill the innocent repeatedly to remain in that land forever.

A small group of people have come here in hopes of getting that deterrent lifted. They do so under the guise that PvP is not a bad thing. Consensual PvP is not bad, but they aren't referring to consensual. They would rather have people unaware of all the rules to stumble blindly before them to be slaughtered in non-censual PvP with the stance that they should have known the rules and consented by default. They would love to see red gates disappear.

In response, I argue the opposite and wish more deterrents be created. The murderer mentality brings nothing good to this game.

 

[RichDC]

Consensual PvP is not bad, but they aren't referring to consensual. They would rather have people unaware of all the rules to stumble blindly before them to be slaughtered in non-censual PvP with the stance that they should have known the rules and consented by default. They would love to see red gates disappear.
.

There is no such thing as unconsentual PvP in UO, If you enter fel you concent to PvP...Simple as that!!

I play both reds and blues, my blues can actually make more money easier than the reds can (im not in a zerg guild), if i go to fel on any char, i know exactly what im letting myself in for...If a red sees me 7out of 10 hes gna try and kill me!

Restricting reds to fel is actually (after listening to all the bitchy trammelites...P.S. im a trammy just not a bitchy whiny one) a good thing, im kinda glad that i have an escape from care bear land!

Keep the system as it is i have now got no desire to return to trammel, and im happy with gaining counts so i never can!