After seeing the video...

[BardMal]

.. of some bard on youtube provoking dark fathers, I took my legendary provoker to the gauntlet and tried it myself.

Every time I get the message "you can not do that"

Now I put my 120 provoke onto a char with only GM music, but I am not getting the message "you skill is not up to the task". I left music at GM because I am building discordance after waiting years for development to make something else to fix my bard and make him worth more than intermediate play level and leather farming.

I am at a loss here, and a little grumpy.

 

[Green Meanie]

the dark father cannot be the first target of a provoke. So a dark father cannot be provoked onto a darkfather. However once a creature has been provoked it is open to all sources of damage. So if you provoke a rotting corpse on one darkfather and a rotten corpse on the other and then darkfather A uses wither and hits Dark Father B then dark father b will throw a bone at A and A will Respond with a bone at B creating an endless loop till one dies

 

[BardMal]

the dark father cannot be the first target of a provoke. So a dark father cannot be provoked onto a darkfather. However once a creature has been provoked it is open to all sources of damage. So if you provoke a rotting corpse on one darkfather and a rotten corpse on the other and then darkfather A uses wither and hits Dark Father B then dark father b will throw a bone at A and A will Respond with a bone at B creating an endless loop till one dies

But that only works if no one else is around damaging or luring the DFs away from each other right? Kind of makes sense, sort of. Thank you

 

[Canucklehead73]

There is just a bug with the DF casting Wither... If they are close enough to each other and cast wither enough, they start attacking each other.

Really lags the server out though. Sucks for everyone else involved.

 

[Harlequin]

Like the others said, you do not provoke the DFs onto each other directly.

You provoke any other mobs around (if none is around, provoke your own EVs) on to both the DF. Evs have an advantage in that it will target one of the DF and you can immediately provoke it on the second DF. Both DFs will head towards the EV, bringing them closer to each other.

The idea to to lure them into each other's wither range and let them aggro each other.

Easiest way to solo. If there are lots of people in Doom on your shard and you don't ever need to solo, then it's a different case.

 

[BardMal]

Like the others said, you do not provoke the DFs onto each other directly.

You provoke any other mobs around (if none is around, provoke your own EVs) on to both the DF. Evs have an advantage in that it will target one of the DF and you can immediately provoke it on the second DF. Both DFs will head towards the EV, bringing them closer to each other.

The idea to to lure them into each other's wither range and let them aggro each other.

Easiest way to solo. If there are lots of people in Doom on your shard and you don't ever need to solo, then it's a different case.

So basically, being the one who led my last bard post towards the video in question, and "nullifying" my assertion that bards need some love from development by indicating that bards can "solo" DFs, now we get to the truth of the matter - bards, specifically provoker bards, have been relegated to the trash heap of a mediocre, mid level hunting char which requires legendary skill status to accomplish that.

That is, unless we legendary provokers rely on cheap, anti social, bug exploit tactics.

It's kind of funny, cause on the shard I am moving to, I watch this necro dexer "virtually" solo any spawn that comes along in Ilshy. By "virtually" I mean I am there provoking, but he whirlwind or area damages anything I provoke so fast, I am bereft of looting rights.

My bard in Doom will never get an arti unless I happen to catch and exploit two DFs alone, basically, is that what you are now confirming to me?

 

[Harlequin]

So basically, being the one who led my last bard post towards the video in question, and "nullifying" my assertion that bards need some love from development by indicating that bards can "solo" DFs, now we get to the truth of the matter - bards, specifically provoker bards, have been relegated to the trash heap of a mediocre, mid level hunting char which requires legendary skill status to accomplish that.

That is, unless we legendary provokers rely on cheap, anti social, bug exploit tactics.

It's kind of funny, cause on the shard I am moving to, I watch this necro dexer "virtually" solo any spawn that comes along in Ilshy. By "virtually" I mean I am there provoking, but he whirlwind or area damages anything I provoke so fast, I am bereft of looting rights.

My bard in Doom will never get an arti unless I happen to catch and exploit two DFs alone, basically, is that what you are now confirming to me?

I don't understand, I have not said anything that's contrary? There's no cheap, anti social tactics or exploit involved?

I am indeed the very person that showed you the video that bards are not underpowered and can solo DFs. In fact, it's the only template that can easily and effectively solo DFs. Even the ultimate gimped sammies/whammies will have a very hard time soloing DFs. And there's no way they will be able to deal with 2 simultaneously.

Regarding your last question, if there are 16+ sammies gimped with slayers and maxed DI/ssi for Doom runs, even tamers (no matter what pets) will find it difficult to get looting rights most of the time.

Your previous post was that you felt provokers were under-powered because they can't deal with the high end mobs. I am stressing that you can deal with high end mobs. And in fact, it's the best template to solo DFs with.

 

[Canucklehead73]

Yeah I'm not sure where this thread came or went...

A bard can solo the DF fairly well with some running around. The mini boss's can actually be harder for a bard at times if thier summons fail. On the negative side for a bard is crowds of players killing the mobs of undead, with nothing to provoke they are pretty much useless, unless your a hybrid.

 

[BardMal]

I believe you do misunderstand me; the "cheap, anti social tactics" I refer to is the obvious exploit of game mechanics that requires no one else be involved.

Sadly, my faith in your sincerity had me all excited to play my bard with a Doom hunting party I have happily joined up with.

Virtually any combat related char class can perform this tactic.

This tactic does not actually give the provoker "credit for the kill" and is thereby, not actually "a provoker ability" defacto.

As for "the mechanics" of this "trick":
The same tactic could be performed by a dexer with an invis item & teleport ring; probably easier than a provoker could, with the same amount of practice. Or by a mage & dexer two man team, or by a spellweaver/dexer solo, taking the death with gift of renewal, or any solo dexer who can lure and then hit a DF and run down and resurrect.

The "exploit" I refer to is the manipulation of game mechanics to by pass the obvious intent of preventing DFs from engaging each other, by the fact that DFs are "non provokable" critters.

Any char can use these tactics, it is not the "province of the provoker", the DFs are not provoked with this "ability"; they are lured close together and caused to attack each other by an area damage targeting mechanic.

Bottom line, getting DFs to wither each other is not a "provoker ability".

A bard, using provoke (or peace, or Disco) has "virtually" no chance getting looting rights on any of the major Doom content, outside of being partied with other chars.

And my original post shill holds true, that the provoker bard has been relegated to the scrap heap of mid level game play, and has become an ineffective/inefficient tool for farming leather as well.

 

[PsychoKinetic]

the provoker bard has been relegated to the scrap heap of mid level game play

I have to disagree. My provoker can solo a Dark Father. Its not exactly easy or by any means fast, but it is a steady process. Cast on the DF (Demon Slayer book) until you get some spawn up and keep trying to provoke every lich lord and rotting corpse you can onto it. If the spawn becomes to much to handle in one area then drag the DF to a quieter area and repeat the above. Hit the DF with Explosion/Energy Bolt combos every chance you get. Because of the DF's high regeneration rate you have to maintain your damage output or risk losing everything you've worked for up until that point. Just keep at it and eventually the big guy will drop.




I do agree with you though about getting two Dark Fathers to aggro on eachother, its just a trick, and you wont get any satisfaction from it.

 

[mutau]

I have to disagree. My provoker can solo a Dark Father. Its not exactly easy or by any means fast, but it is a steady process. Cast on the DF (Demon Slayer book) until you get some spawn up and keep trying to provoke every lich lord and rotting corpse you can onto it. If the spawn becomes to much to handle in one area then drag the DF to a quieter area and repeat the above. Hit the DF with Explosion/Energy Bolt combos every chance you get. Because of the DF's high regeneration rate you have to maintain your damage output or risk losing everything you've worked for up until that point. Just keep at it and eventually the big guy will drop.


I do agree with you though about getting two Dark Fathers to aggro on eachother, its just a trick, and you wont get any satisfaction from it.

So, when you say "you won't get any satisfaction from it" you're saying that even if you solo 2 DF's but they end up killing eachother or 1 will get killed and you pop off the last one, no arti will drop, because you didn't do the direct damage? or provo'd the damage.

Is that what's being inferred?

 

[BardMal]

Do you have resist on your bard?

It is kinda funny that the RCs seem to last longer than the LLs, but I seem to fail provoking the LLs much more often than I do provoking the RCs.

With the failure rate, and the HP regen rate of the DF, and the dieing rate of the provoked spawn, a provoker taking down a DF solo would be a truly Herculean task. Kudos to you if you have the emotional stability and patience to undertake such activities.

Myself, I am re shelving my provoke and putting together a necro/tamer for the alliance Doom runs. I hope that works, I have never received an artifact from game play, and have spent more insurance trying on my bard than they cost in Luna.

I was a pretty good Destard bard for years. Other than horned leather in the side rooms, I don't really bother taking my provoker their with any satisfaction anymore.

I still think provoker bards are due some Love from Developement in this game.

 

[PsychoKinetic]

Yes, Im saying you wont get any satisfaction from from taking down a high-level creature using a trick. You may get the gold, you may get an artifact, you may make your friends say "Wow!", but in the end youll have more fun from this game playing it as intended.


"Do you have resist on your bard?"

120 Magery
120 Meditation
120 Evaluating Intelligence
120 Magic Resist
120 Music
120 Provoke


So, I guess a better question would be: "Do I have provoke on my mage?"



And it occurred to me, if Im truly alone in Doom, there will only be one Dark Father anyway. No tricks allowed. *smiles*

 

[Green Meanie]

getting two Dark fathers to wither eachother is the provence of a bard. Not to say it isnt a trick but untill you provoke a something onto a dark father they are not open to the aoe damage of there other dfs withers.

What im trying to say is one df withering next to the other does nothing unless one of them has been provoked first to open them up to the aoe damage of any creature

 

[PsychoKinetic]

one df withering next to the other does nothing unless one of them has been provoked first to open them up to the aoe damage of any creature

Ohh. I missed this the first time. I just figured it was like that for everyone cause it worked that way for me.

If it is a bug, it certainly is an unusual one.

 

[Omnius]

uhhh you just posted a known exploit on stratics and it's had this many replies without yet being locked. El Oh El

 

[Harlequin]

Mal, I am saddened that your foray into Doom did not turn out as expected.

Apologies for not explaining it well enough the first time round. I totally forgot to explain why provoke is required and why the player in the video provoked the EV onto the DFs instead of provoking both DFs against each other directly.

Although I don't consider these to be cheap tricks, I understand why some people may. I also understand why people get a greater sense of accomplishment in having their warrior stand toe to toe against the toughest mobs, I feel the same way too.

How useful it is also depends on how full your shard is. Back on my old shard, there's hardly anyone in Doom during the times that I play. So this was the only viable way to do Doom.

Yes, it also requires another trick to spawn 2 DFs if you are truly alone. Not an exploit as in ban-able kinds and abusing bugs. But from understanding how certain game mechanics work.

If you are lucky to play on a populated shard, then the issue is having enough DPS to compete with the 16+ gimped out warriors. Depending if they all are fully gimped out in slayers/DI, there are ways to outdamage the 16th person off that list. See templates posted on your orig thread for ideas.

But yes, some templates are really better at certain thing than others.

Just wanted to mention this - Not sure if you remember, there was a period when provoke was totally broken - provoked mobs only did 1 point of damage to another. I made use of this "game mechanic" to nerf the damage that bosses were doing to my pets (peace/provoke tamer). Though it's probably only useful to provoke tamers.

Edit: What I mean in my last para is that many times, disadvantageous scenarios can be turned to your advantage

 

[Sweeney]

It is not an exploit using in-game mechanics as they were intended to be used.

 

[BardMal]

Har, Dom was more fun that it has ever been for me, because of the new guild I am with.

I was disappointed when many dragons died because I couldn't provoke the DFs onto each other after cross sharding my provoke skill to my new shard.

My wife's necro got an orni, which was awesome. I don't think I died more than once this trip. Playing with UTB is great fun.

I moved my tamer skills over as well, and am planning on revamping the 2 bard tamers I was building and making a necro tamer and a mage tamer. If I can find the rights jewels, I can make my necro tamer now.

Once they are built, 120 provoke will become a soul stone deco item in my new house.

 

[Arch Magus]

So basically, being the one who led my last bard post towards the video in question, and "nullifying" my assertion that bards need some love from development by indicating that bards can "solo" DFs, now we get to the truth of the matter - bards, specifically provoker bards, have been relegated to the trash heap of a mediocre, mid level hunting char which requires legendary skill status to accomplish that.

That is, unless we legendary provokers rely on cheap, anti social, bug exploit tactics.

It's kind of funny, cause on the shard I am moving to, I watch this necro dexer "virtually" solo any spawn that comes along in Ilshy. By "virtually" I mean I am there provoking, but he whirlwind or area damages anything I provoke so fast, I am bereft of looting rights.

My bard in Doom will never get an arti unless I happen to catch and exploit two DFs alone, basically, is that what you are now confirming to me?

There's nothing cheap about being able to solo Rends, Virulents and Malefics, Putrifiers, Ice? Hydras, regular Hydras....

Why is it that you cannot fight these? This is pure Legendary provoker territory.
Bards are far from useless, you just have the guts or imagination to do what it takes i guess.

 

[Harlequin]

Har, Dom was more fun that it has ever been for me, because of the new guild I am with.

I was disappointed when many dragons died because I couldn't provoke the DFs onto each other after cross sharding my provoke skill to my new shard.

My wife's necro got an orni, which was awesome. I don't think I died more than once this trip. Playing with UTB is great fun.

I moved my tamer skills over as well, and am planning on revamping the 2 bard tamers I was building and making a necro tamer and a mage tamer. If I can find the rights jewels, I can make my necro tamer now.

Once they are built, 120 provoke will become a soul stone deco item in my new house.

Grats on the Orny! It's definitely more fun to play with a group

And the new changes to Doom is awesome, no?

If your wife plays as well, can I suggest trying what my wife and I do, provoke/peace tamer teamed with a discord/peace tamer. Very effective team for almost any situation. We use this to farm bone daemons for golden skulls