OK you have a right to your opinion... and so do we. Several of us have seen PB Protected Games get hacked through like a hot knife through butter. Sure PB will work on low level cheating, but you think the main abusers/speedhackers/scriptors don't already have people working on PB Hacks? There are websites littering the internet with them... and next time I suggest you acyually RESEARCH, not just look up some keywords I typed. Look through some of the sites listed when you search and see for yourself (I DID unlike you apparently). Some of the sites may be hackers looking to hack your PC, not a game, by having you DL there proggies sure, but there are a ton of real hack programs out there that make PB worthless in many of our opinions. And quite honestly I would actually laugh my self to death if I found out of a UO Hacker-Would-Be get their PC destroyed in the process of Downloading such hacks... can you say Karma?
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Black magick
Guest
First, a society goes to anarchy without police, or law, but that's another discussion entirely. Second, I'm curious as to why you would think people who cheat can't get by without doing so, for some this is the case but for many it is not. Do you know why people use scripts to gain skill? The main reason is that its an option of quick easy gain, which can be done while doing other things simultaneously. Other reasons are: as you said boring, little time, or they have done it before and don't feel like they should put in the work to get the skill back. For BODs and such, people are always going to look for ways to do it easily.
As for PB, NO. It won't work.
T
The Home Guild
Guest
My answer is no.
We already went thru this years ago.
If ea thought it would help,we would have it by now.
I truely believe they know that 50% that play use third party programs
and they will lose that mula.
If thye would make skill gains somewhat easier instead of taking forever...example[taming among other skills.. eh who knows.
Anyhow,like i said years ago...I don't see it helping.
We already went thru this years ago.
If ea thought it would help,we would have it by now.
I truely believe they know that 50% that play use third party programs
and they will lose that mula.
If thye would make skill gains somewhat easier instead of taking forever...example[taming among other skills.. eh who knows.
Anyhow,like i said years ago...I don't see it helping.
I think it would stop about 80% of the people that currently cheat. I am sure there are "cracks" that can be made that can circumnavigate the system.
Of course you said no your in a guild that most likely profits off the placing of homes... We all know how most of those homes were aquired....
Hmmm wonder why you voted no, a dent in your wallet or purse?
I DID look at the sites, I never said I just looked at the keywords... But I still don't believe everything that is the websites. I never said PB can't be hacked. I just don't believe that PB is as easy to by-pass as many claim.
PB updates their programs while hackers do as well. To keep ahead of PB, hackers have to keep changing their programs to not get detected. UO is not very popular right now, so I don't think it will be easy for hackers to continually keep their hacks ahead of PB.
T
thenow
Guest
Seriously nothing has or will ruin this game more then cheating. The culture of cheating in UO is exceptional. The poll about who 'knew' someone using a 3rd party proggie was strong evidence of the culture of cheating here. There has been a major exodus of players since cheating got out of hand.
WE ALL KNOW THE MAJORITY [not all] CHEAT IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. This is why this game is and becoming the sorry state that it is.
IF SA DOESN'T ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM THEN UO WILL DIE!!!
I find it unacceptable that cheaters can mistakingly post screen shots while forgeting to close dwn that last cheat proggie they have up, [for all to see] but if we mention the programs then those who mentioned get banned but those who screen shot it do not. An example of how the game is played nowadays.
PS- Take note of certain 'phrases' and 'terms' that cheaters use to discredit cheating and its advantages. Many players from different walks of life and areas will use the same 'terms'. Common statements used from the cheating website and forums. One of my favourites is " Cheat proggies will only make it harder to fight " and "in no way does cheating give you an advantage"
WE ALL KNOW THE MAJORITY [not all] CHEAT IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. This is why this game is and becoming the sorry state that it is.
IF SA DOESN'T ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM THEN UO WILL DIE!!!
I find it unacceptable that cheaters can mistakingly post screen shots while forgeting to close dwn that last cheat proggie they have up, [for all to see] but if we mention the programs then those who mentioned get banned but those who screen shot it do not. An example of how the game is played nowadays.
PS- Take note of certain 'phrases' and 'terms' that cheaters use to discredit cheating and its advantages. Many players from different walks of life and areas will use the same 'terms'. Common statements used from the cheating website and forums. One of my favourites is " Cheat proggies will only make it harder to fight " and "in no way does cheating give you an advantage"
"It doesn't work" is very subjective. Define to me what does work? 100% cheat free? 90%? 80? PB is a company solely dedicated to stopping cheats. Yes there are those dedicated to out-flanking it.. as they are dedicated to cheating against any entity that would try to stop them. Yes I know it gets hacked. I believe you. All of us would be naive to think otherwise.
But currently in UO, anyone who was even slightly curious about automating their toon could have a script up and running by the end of the day and run these cheats with little or no worry about any action against them.
While your out researching what doesn't work, try looking around for what does work. Tell me any current popular online game that is completely rid of all cheating and what single solution they have that works. Oh... I'll save you the time. There isn't one. I know this and I didn't even look.
PB is a partial solution. It isn't 100%. But as they build a wider client base and take on more staff to do their job effectively, the ratio of hack to honest play gets better and better. PB nets would catch lots of little fish. Mythic won't ban them (at first) they don't want to loose the income. But PB won't let them play either so they (the little fish) must chose:
1) stop being bad little fish and start being good little fish
2) stop being bad little fish and start being bad big fish
3) quit
Why I am such a fan of a centralized company focusing on cheating:
Cost - (theoretical numbers to illustrate a point)
10 (good) engineers dedicated to 8 hours+/day to stopping exploits would carry a combined annual salary of roughly 1 million once you added in the overhead.
10 companies subscribing to a service that that employs these engineers pays 200k/year for the service.
PB makes 2 million - 1 million in cost netting 1 million in profit
All companies subscribing to the service save 800k/year from employing these resources themselves.
Productivity -
A single company employing resources to stop cheating are exposed mainly to hacks used in their game. This reduces their ability to fight the latest and greatest hacks as they(hacks) rotate from game to game and adapt. There will reach a point of saturation where these resources sit idle as they are un-aware of new hacks going on in their game.
A central company selling a service is exposed to a wider variety of cheats and can implement solutions across the board that stops cheats from getting into other games before they have a chance to propagate. Experience compounds excellence.
Accountability -
PB has to deliver results. If it doesn't then no one would pay for the service. Just like the trial scan of an AV demo has to prove it can find viruses and before you actually buy. If you buy AV software... and still get viruses regularly, you aren't going to keep paying for it (are you?). There will reporting before and after implementation. There will be players that will report discrepancies in detail to be addressed. If it doesn't work we will know. It will be obvious.
Out-sourcing resources for this also makes the game more pure. No interdepartmental bickering over who isn't doing their job. If PB doesn't work it will be Mythic raising hell with them. Not jabbering internally because so and so didn't do his part. No blaming the dev team for writing code that was easy to hack. The line is drawn and clear: Mythic makes games, PB polices hackers.
Dedication -
It's a two way street here. Once there is a signature on the line that is dotted. Then that's it. While Mythic can probably get out of the contract if PB fails to deliver, Mythic can't get out of the contract to save a buck. The general terms are usually written for three years. If so, that's three years of PB (if it meets the designed goals). No moving PB engineers to other projects inside of EA and no moving EA engineers to PB. Dedicated resources to stop cheating and nothing else for the life of the contract.
Punishment - (my favorite)
My number one reason to do this. Right now there are very few drawbacks to cheating. Those that script for profit can reap mass amounts of wealth while only worrying about getting banned. Very rarely would there ever be any legal repercussions to their mis-deeds. I say that's just fine. I'd rather the police spend their time finding killers and rapists anyway.
Of the highest penalty PB abusers can win a global ban from attempting to connect to any game using their service. So not only will they be banned from a single game, but if they abuse it hard enough they won't be playing any PB protected games. I really like this. It ups the ante for what a hacker is willing to loose. All companies producing online games need to come together to stop cheating. And right now PB is the only kid on the block that can do it for them.
E
ElRay
Guest
Uhhhh, it it works?? It would work. Else why would other games implement it?
For its kewl name?
What would EA gain by implementing PB and eliminating the majority of cheaters?
Why its called "credibility" or maybe "dignity" or how about "pride in your work"
or maybe showing the gaming community you actually give a fu*k
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Someone above posted that it would stop 80% of the cheating.
It's more like 40-50%.
PB would only stop the people that were afraid to download hacks and such in the first place.
Players that know other players and have trusted sources will still do what they do.
Ask anyone that plays BF2142 and BF2 servers. There are jump hacks, ammo hacks, bots, item hacks, speed hacks, etc. all over the place. And these games are all EA and all PB enabled.
Seriously. It won't work.
I have never cheated at UO (well...not true...I macroed unattended many many years ago, but that was before it was against the rules...officially. And I didn't use a script.)
The problem is that script programs (not speedhacks so much) are almost undetectable because someone that knows what they are doing can write them from scratch and they work on a different level than PB can detect.
If PB starts detecting keyboard and mouse emulators, then anyone using gaming keyboards and gaming devices, such as Nostromo pads, will be SOL.
EA would do well to take the money they would pay PB for UO, and invest it in GMs that DO THEIR JOBS!
How many UO players here would not take a part time job as a GM, remotely of course, for minimum wage??
EA just needs to involve the player base.
It's more like 40-50%.
PB would only stop the people that were afraid to download hacks and such in the first place.
Players that know other players and have trusted sources will still do what they do.
Ask anyone that plays BF2142 and BF2 servers. There are jump hacks, ammo hacks, bots, item hacks, speed hacks, etc. all over the place. And these games are all EA and all PB enabled.
Seriously. It won't work.
I have never cheated at UO (well...not true...I macroed unattended many many years ago, but that was before it was against the rules...officially. And I didn't use a script.)
The problem is that script programs (not speedhacks so much) are almost undetectable because someone that knows what they are doing can write them from scratch and they work on a different level than PB can detect.
If PB starts detecting keyboard and mouse emulators, then anyone using gaming keyboards and gaming devices, such as Nostromo pads, will be SOL.
EA would do well to take the money they would pay PB for UO, and invest it in GMs that DO THEIR JOBS!
How many UO players here would not take a part time job as a GM, remotely of course, for minimum wage??
EA just needs to involve the player base.
T
The Home Guild
Guest
I'm no longer in my"home guild" anymore.I gave to vladimier and how he gets these homes is like everyone else Mr Implying he scripts.Perhaps you're unaware that they fixed it and there is a cool down process on placing also when a home falls there is a random period of time before anyone can plot from 15 min to over 2 hrs[sometimes] So it's fair to all idocers in which i agree and am happy with. Shouldn't jump the gun full blazin at me or my old guild before you know your facts.
I disagree with it for all the other reasons people have in this thread.
Like most read up on "Punk buster" and once you get a full understanding perhaps you'll have a second opinion.
Thanks for your reply tho.
ps. Yes,perhaps it's time to get rid of my banner. I did quit uo.
just never deleted it.
Yes there are ways around PB. But pull yourself away from the specifics and embrace the idea of it. Technical specifics are for the engineers to hammer out. Secrurity for MMOs will always one big "whack-a-mole" game. As soon as one new hack is thumped down, another will pop-up.
All new ideas start out feeble and un-tested. If they are good ideas they gain additional resources paid for by a growing client base. Over time they become robust, effective and profitable for all. UO itself is a testament to this statement.
"It won't work" is kind of a cop out. The only way to prove it would be seeing PB close shop... which it hasn't... yet. And that would mean either it does work to client satisfication or PB management is so darn good at spinning the results that their entire client base is deceived. Which is also possible. But they can't make that stick forever. Client developers would be fools to take their (PBs) word for it and not perform their own evaluation. And the members of this dev team are no fools. But I can't speak for any other dev team.
I have never cheated either. But I know the syntax of the popular scripting software. It is powerful. The commands root deep in to the foundation of the games core functions. The tool is so well built I wouldn't be surprised if the devs used something similar when they design. Whomever wrote it is educated and has a strong following. I'm sure the devs want to see that PB can detect it before they blindly subscribe to the service as it is the bane of UO.
Again, If the dev team pointed them to the proper (well publicized) place and said "can you detect things like this?" And PB engineers couldn't find a way, then yes I'm all on board for not subscribing to the service. If they can, then yes eventually people like the ones who wrote the script will always beat the system. But they can't to release their hacks to the masses while they are being actively monitored by a company who has no choice but to combat them or perish... and expect that hack to have a long life.
How does a GM detect a scriptor using illegal software if it operates on a level they can't detect?
How many UO players would be a GM for free full time if they felt they could abuse their powers for financial gain?
EA does not need to involve the player base. The player base should be playing the game. I cant imagine anyone would look to play a game soley based on the drive to find cheaters. We shouldn't even be having this debate.... but we are. There shouldn't be one single post on any forum for any game that has anything to do with cheating.... But that is and always will be a fantasy.
Ahhh... that is a refreshing though. If only we could have a perfect gaming world were cheating did not exist. It is truly a problem in UO and many other games and I highly doubt PB or any other "Cure All" can effectively eliminate. The problem is that scripts are really easy to make especially with the amount of PC Savvy that the gaming communities have. People nowadays seem to have "Programmer" written into their DNA or something lol.
If there weren't complaints all over the web on PB and its ineffectiveness, and if it weren't on the DoD list I have to follow at work to play (PB is on it as an "Invasive Spyware/Malware Threat") I would support it as well! I WANT the cheaters to be extinct but by means that are reasonable. Forcing PB makes about 50% of my playtime disappear due to my inability to use PB on the PC's I often am using!
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Same way they detect someone that is asleep with a roll of coins on their F12 key. They go up to the person and say "Are you UMing?" ... no response... "Ok, I will check again in 20 min." They come back in 20 min "Are you there?"...no answer. Banned.
Simple as that.
Now I know that a lot of 'farmers' use 3rd party programs that translate game-speak into IMs. It would not stop those people. But those are the same people that PB wouldn't stop either.
Not me.
I make enough money without any pay from UO, and would love nothing more than to ban cheaters ruining my game. I am sure there are more like me out there.
That doesn't mean they are using an illegal program though and they still can't detect the program just by asking them. Just by asking the player if they are there doesn't help them detect anything but the players presence at the computer.
So no, a GM cannot detect a scriptor using illegal software. All they can detect is if the player is there.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
True... a GM cannot detect 3rd party software...but they CAN detect UM...which is just as much a violation of the rules as scripting.
Banned=Banned
Doesn't matter what for.
They busted Al Capone for tax evasion. He still went to prison.
I was a programmer for around 5 years before I switched to networking. I moved up past my peers quickly and got perfect reviews. Most programmers there were sort of lazy. They usually made changes on the fly straight into production.... made allot of mistakes. I always moved through test and beta platforms.
I tried to get code reviews from my peers before going to production. Very rarely did anyone actually participate. So... when I was ready to go into production, I would claim that I had written perfect "infoulable" code. Saying that was usually enough to bait a few folks into proving me wrong... which was what I wanted. When they got through tearing it apart... it was pretty solid.
If I got back into programming I would love a job with a company like PB. Folks are so hell bent on proving them incapable, they would constantly update me on what I need to focus on. Which would be what I want:
Gheed: Hello world! I have created a perfect solution to cheating. There is nothing anyone can do to hack it.... hahaha!
A key downfall to hacking is the need to brag about it. The smartest ones keep their cheats to themselves. Which is just fine too. It keeps 1/10000 from from becoming 1/10.
True, but I'd rather have them find a way to detect 3rd party software. Banning macroers is a start, but that still doesn't even do much at all since macroers are rarely dealt with. At least the ones I always see.
I can page on dozens of unattended macroers and have nothing done about it.
Having to show up, ask if they are there, leave, show up again and ask again is not a very good system.
I agreee with you regarding the effectiveness of PB on cheat programs. These people will just code a better cheat program. However, it will reduce the level of cheating though, mainly the less hardcore cheaters.
This also includes UOA. Not sure if PB works with a blacklist or whitelist concept. But if the latter, technically, UOA can be added in a whitelist where legit programs are ignored.
Of note is that whenever UO client is patched, UOA needs to be upgraded to synchronize with the changes. Only after UOA is patched (which may take a couple of days), can PB be updated with the new UOA signatures (which will take another couple of days). During this time, PB could potentially be forwarding a ton of UOA false positive notifications to EA.
Unless they do static signatures, which will be dumb, coz people can then easily spoof their cheat programs by using the UOA signatures.
Regarding the GMs, while the game could do with more GMs, it's not feasible to replace an automated cheat detection tool with manual efforts from GMs patrolling the shards.
All in all, I'd rather the devs use the resource they would need to pay PB to instead, add a detection routine directly into the UO client (like your suggestion in an earlier psot that a better way to do this). And use that in tandem with the GMs. That is, if they have not done so already.
This will definitely be more effective than simply implementing PB primarily since there's no widely published details of how to work around PB...
Note that this will work if the cheaters are using 3rd party proggies. It won't work with the most damaging cheat - duping.
F
Fink
Guest
I like the way you think.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
I do believe that a certain amount of cheating, at least scripting, would be eliminated with PB ... a certain program that many pEople Use Often might be eliminated until the makers of said program could release a new version...but will do nothing against people that write scripts using VB that work on the human interface layer.
Currently, I use a Nostromo n52te game pad while playing UO. The software it includes allows you to bind multiple keystrokes, and pauses, to individual keys. There are other apps out there that allow you to bind mouse movements to it as well.
While this is not good for UMing, it is certainly possible to create basic scripts with it. PB would not detect this sort of thing because Windows treats it as keyboard/mouse commands, not an app. The same can be said for a several script programs out there.
It's a lot like a door lock. It will make it harder for someone that wants to break in, but if they really want in, they will get in.
The technology is well beyond that. But these are aslo the same people who set up identical Luna shops on multiple shards selling unlimited 5k deeds of any resource you desire. They get caught as well. Thats and issue with multi shard scripting mega bots. You actually have to move your inventory. Eventually someone will blow the whistle.
This is why I say let PB filter the would-be cheaters and let the players catch the big fish. Not openly hunt for them mind you... but in time experience with game mechanics kinda gives gives the "spidey sense" when you are doing your thing and something doesn't seem right around you.
When I used to walk through the lands chopping wood. I stumbled on a small secluded plot with no design. One fella poping in and out dumping ore into a small crate on the step. I'd watch for a while, block the recall spot... unblock it and watch him pop in.
I marked the location, dropped it in my book and moved on. I soon stumbled across another plot like this... then another... more and more untill I had 8 spots marked. I made several runebooks of these spots and labeled them "Famous Scripters of Britannia". Then dropped them all over Luna bank. A few weeks later I checked again and none of them were there anymore. Got caught? Closed up shop? I don't know or care. They just weren't there anymore and I never saw anything like them again while out and about.
PB mostly doesn't ban for what I read. It simply doesnt let you log in or boots you if you are suspect. Unless you are doing something really bad like tampering with the PB process itself. I agree with this as well. UO owners have let cheating go on so long, it's a good soltion. It's a gentle nudge saying they value your patronidge but you can't do that anymore. They get a chance of keeping their money and ebb the the tide of undesired behavoir into something productive.
I could be wrong... just dreaming. But I am more geared toward looking at things as a whole... how all the pieces fit together to make the machine run. I don't typically slide specific pieces of that final solution under the microscope.
I don't doubt this one bit, Anyone who RPs on the boards is definitely into this game for the right reasons and has my respect.
*wipes off his nose*
But folks aren't going to get a GM job by openly admiting they are going to abuse it. They will also shout their love for the game from the rooftops to get a shot at GM power.
And if I were running a mega bott farm and feared you were on to me, I may even try to trash your credibility through CS complaints and open board rants. Use your passion against you. Human intervention is one piece of the machine. Automation (if designed propperly) is more exact, non-emotional, less foulable, more thorough. It only lacks common sense. And that's the piece (most of us) can add to the whole.
D
Divster
Guest
I play both of these games A LOT and regularly see people kicked by punkbuster for using hacks. Our server keeps a record of who it was and what hack they were using. Sure now and then someone gets a hack through but as was mentioned earlier once pb is on to it it has to be changed in order to remain undetected.
Seriously. It does work
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Yeah...but how many does it NOT catch?
How many times have you been fragged by someone that you KNEW was cheating?
I can't say for certain that I have played your server, but I know that several I have played have had problems with hacks of all kinds.
I say yes.
For all those who say no, I don;t want to see you on here whining about cheating and scripting.
Punkbuster isn't the only solution though, or the best option for UO. No game I play uses PB, yet they're all able to deal with cheats and clean things up to a level where cheats are barely noticeable. Without becoming incompatible with non Win operating systems or even caring what software is running in the background.
You could remove a lot of cheats by fixing skill gain systems, nerfing trial account abusers and so on. EA seem to be looking at these options now, which is great. If systems hadn't been put in place which encouraged scripting (community collections, golem training, heartwood quests, BODs etc etc), then the problem wouldn't have required such a huge fix.
We have problems with PvP cheats too, but many problems are created by deficiencies in the game itself. These can be corrected. Then look at ways to deal with the PvP cheats, because I'm sure those too can be fixed without Punkbuster too. PB isn't the only solution, and that's before we get into discussions about the capabilities of cheats
Wenchy
No. Absolutely not. It wouldn't do any good, for a start. For seconds, I don't invite the police into my home, just so they can check whether I'm doing something wrong and I don't allow programs to rummage my hard drive to check whether I'm doing something wrong either. How about actually having GM's not only available but capable? And able to do something about those who cheat? How about something in FOF every week, telling us how many scripters are caught and banned? If ordinary players can spot them, why do the GM's struggle? Punkbuster is not the answer. It's too easy to work around, too expensive to keep up with the workarounds and far too intrusive.
D
Divster
Guest
I'm not suggesting it is 100% effective, but in my experience 8 or 9 times out of ten throughout the gaming population (in bf2/2142 anyway) those accused of cheating are not in fact cheating. Many times I have tried to convince myself people are cheating, when in fact they are not. having said this yes there are aimbots etc out there but they do get picked up and forced to adapt and commander vehicle drop hacks (omg how annoying is that) but a program which at least makes these loosers work more to get their cheats to work and filters out an awefull lot of those who don't, while at the same time having little to no effect on gameplay is a step in right direction.
maybe pb isn't the right choice *shrugs* but some form of third party detection is desperatley needed
I vote 100% yes to Punkbuster if our devs can take care of the concerns above. As a guild leader, I can say without a doubt that cheating, over and above anything else, is driving many players away from this game.
I don't know why I didn't think of this before lol... one way UO could get rid of a massive amount if not all scripted wood and ore farming that is so simple its stupid lol.
UO could simpley incorporate a counter that when a crafter/mining/lumberjacking tool is used it starts to tally your uses/swings etc. This system could alert the GM staff after a set length of time that is suspicious. It would have to take into consideration for dropping off the resources attained at the scripters farm house, but they could surely (UO) incorporate something like this and have it setup to look for "patterns" that are suspicious, then send the GM's an alert to investigate internally. I can see it now...
~Counter is Triggered by Suspect Script User~
~Alert is sent out to the GM's office~
~GM enters invisible~
~observes crimes in action~
~uninvises~
~"Hello Mr Scripter are you there?"~
~no response~
~"Um... Hello?"~
~no response~
~scripter character starts to cast recall in front of a GM~
~GM gets out ban stick and starts the process of an IP trace to ban that IP address and all inbound requests to the UO Servers from that IP until UO Internal Admin can investigate CC records of said acct and deam if a permanant ban should be placed upon the accts, CC used, IP address~
~End Story~
sry I just couldn't resist the story part but it is true and I think would work
That would in itself cripple the scripted resources trade since it would become unprofitable for the scripter unless they are using a newbie acct which is disposable. And to combat that, they could crosscheck all the newb accts to look for multiple registrations, look for trends and what appears to be abuse and not only get the newb acct but also the other accts used primarily by the scripters.
Just some thoughts as I sit here drinking coffee reading the morning paper
UO could simpley incorporate a counter that when a crafter/mining/lumberjacking tool is used it starts to tally your uses/swings etc. This system could alert the GM staff after a set length of time that is suspicious. It would have to take into consideration for dropping off the resources attained at the scripters farm house, but they could surely (UO) incorporate something like this and have it setup to look for "patterns" that are suspicious, then send the GM's an alert to investigate internally. I can see it now...
~Counter is Triggered by Suspect Script User~
~Alert is sent out to the GM's office~
~GM enters invisible~
~observes crimes in action~
~uninvises~
~"Hello Mr Scripter are you there?"~
~no response~
~"Um... Hello?"~
~no response~
~scripter character starts to cast recall in front of a GM~
~GM gets out ban stick and starts the process of an IP trace to ban that IP address and all inbound requests to the UO Servers from that IP until UO Internal Admin can investigate CC records of said acct and deam if a permanant ban should be placed upon the accts, CC used, IP address~
~End Story~
sry I just couldn't resist the story part but it is true and I think would workThat would in itself cripple the scripted resources trade since it would become unprofitable for the scripter unless they are using a newbie acct which is disposable. And to combat that, they could crosscheck all the newb accts to look for multiple registrations, look for trends and what appears to be abuse and not only get the newb acct but also the other accts used primarily by the scripters.
Just some thoughts as I sit here drinking coffee reading the morning paper
People's worries about PB's security may or may not be valid, but this is what it's based on:First i didnt vote..
Either way i vote doesn't matter its a dead issue.EA/Mythic said no. Yes i want the cheaters and scripters caught but PB is a dead issue.
A little devil's advocate here:
i have a question for you Privacy folks... Have you flown commerical since Sept 11th? HELLO the whole world gets to see the crap er stuff in your carryon.. why do they put the monitors at such a cock-eyed angle? If you have the misfortune of my sister to be...ah shall we say of ample bosom, and your underwire brassiere sets off the dang metal detector and the wand scanner. Guess what you get patted down in front of God and everyone.No privacy there.
What about customs??? EWW! Some strange person gets to open my luggage and see my not so delicates. (holey drawers and socks. J/K)
Sadly privacy is becoming a thing of past.. only place we seem to have privacy is in the loo... unless you have kids. :haha:
If ever watch forensic shows... NO not CSI, Bones, etc.. Real ones.. you'd be freaked at what your computer tells people and you dont even know it.
In an Ep of Forensic Files, The St Louis, MO police with the help of Microsoft and his ISP they tracked this Rapist/Murder to his HOUSE! Needless to say he was arrested, tried (sp), and convicted.
Do we really have anonymity and privacy on the web?
(puts on flame-retardant undies..i know its coming)
Luc
They don't know who is seeing what and what said who is doing with what they see or what they're doing while they see it... in the name of a game.
If I were approached by Homeland Security and asked to cooperate by granting temporary access to my computer files, I would agree, even if it was reluctantly or in a limited capacity, because its for something that protects real lives. I'd be willing to risk a nudie pic of myself being seen by some suit, if it was something of that magnitude.
Because PB is able to be worked around and is not totally fail-safe, I voted No. It will not stop the cheating completely, which is how I think it should be approached--all or nothing. Because of this, I don't feel that I should allow them to scan my computer...
And yes, before you say anything, I know airport checks don't 100% safeguard against anything. However, using the comparison you've used, would you think stopping a scripter or stopping a terror attack is the greater achievement for the violation of privacy that occurs?
(Not a flame, I swear.)
G
Gellor
Guest
A counter on using something to page a GM is kind of far fetched.
I mean we already have the player GM's paging on everyone who doesn't talk to them *rolleyes* I can't count the number of times I've been paged on because I don't feel like chatting with somebody. Hate to break it to you, I'm not paying for UO to chat with random people all the time... somedays, just like in RL, I'm anti social.
Plus, we already have a GM queue from hell as it is and you want to add to it this way? We'd go from 2 hours waits to 8 hours waits
Is there an issue with cheats, hacks, exploits, etc? Absolutely. Only a fibber or someone really naive would say otherwise.
Do I have some magical solution that EA could implement, absolutely not. The problem is you have four abuses going on within UO(no comments about PvP balance):
As an added "bonus", Punk Buster MIGHT be able to kill a UO specific script program but there are probably dozens of "generic" script programs out there that PB can't do anything about(or shouldn't do anything about). Of course, the assumption is that the UO specific script program doesn't just morph and get around PB
I mean we already have the player GM's paging on everyone who doesn't talk to them *rolleyes* I can't count the number of times I've been paged on because I don't feel like chatting with somebody. Hate to break it to you, I'm not paying for UO to chat with random people all the time... somedays, just like in RL, I'm anti social.
Plus, we already have a GM queue from hell as it is and you want to add to it this way? We'd go from 2 hours waits to 8 hours waits
Is there an issue with cheats, hacks, exploits, etc? Absolutely. Only a fibber or someone really naive would say otherwise.
Do I have some magical solution that EA could implement, absolutely not. The problem is you have four abuses going on within UO(no comments about PvP balance):
- Speed hacking - there is NOTHING they can do on this from the client end. This is something that needs to be handled at the server. Only a fool 100% trusts what's coming to a server from an unknown source *rolleyes*
They need to pick some statistical average and say "we're capping the server at 30ms(number pulled out of rear)". Seems to me that all the "l33t" PvPers are running $50k computers on T1 lines pinging .05ms to servers halfway across the world that is assuming the claim isn't "I live right next door to the servers" *rolleyes* - Exploits - uh... maybe fix the code in a reasonable amount of time? From what I recall, the 70 point ninja DS bug was 3 months in fixing *rolleyes*
- Skill gain macroing - the root issue here is the unreasonable skill gain rate. It shouldn't take a casual game player 6 months to have a playable character with GM skills.
- Resource macroing - I understand the "anti macro" argument on this... but in all honesty, even if this was impossible, I don't think prices would fluctuate THAT much.
But of related issue here was that OH SO WONDERFUL random resource code they implemented because "great things are coming for crafters" *rolleyes* Two years later and nothing has changed in crafting that makes that change make sense. Now the casual game player can't just log in and recall around to get some valorite ingots he needs.
As an added "bonus", Punk Buster MIGHT be able to kill a UO specific script program but there are probably dozens of "generic" script programs out there that PB can't do anything about(or shouldn't do anything about). Of course, the assumption is that the UO specific script program doesn't just morph and get around PB
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
But by this same token, you wouldn't advocate to completely get rid of airport security because it was not necessarily 100% effective and because it was somewhat intrusive would you??
You know, the more I read...the more I am thinking of changing my stance on this to YES.
EA has made it clear that nothing will be done to stop cheating in UO. Punkbuster was discussed 2-3 years ago and since that time cheating has escalated and escalated. 2-3 years of increased cheating with zero repercussions for cheaters tells you all you need to know about EA. Putting a stop to the rampant cheating is far from the top of the list of priorities when it comes to UO.
Funny, I could have sworn that they recently had mass bans over duping and have said they have plans to deal with cheating in UO. Not to forget their plans to severely limit the abilities for free trial accounts. Me thinks your post here is going to be completely disregarded due to completely inaccurate claims.
That would be funnyI like the way you think.
You obviously dont pvp, cheating increases on a daily basis. Nothing has been done in a long time in reguards to speedhacking, client mods etc. Wanna see some unaturally fast players? Just go to yew gate on your shard. It will take you all of 30 seconds to find lots of "too fast" players. As far as bans for duping go, how many valorite hammers and other duped items are on vendors still? Too many to count. The token bans they did for dupers was a good thing but the fact is a few token bans every couple years does not constitute active enforcement of the TOS. Those kinds of bans need to happen for speedhacking as well as dupes on a weekly basis until people actually get the message that cheating will not be tolerated. My question is this, what makes speedhackers have any fear of speedhacking? The answer to that is absolutely nothing. Go, ahead prove me wrong but i really dont think you can.
Yes speedhackers are plentiful as well as others, but saying EA has no intentions of doing anything about cheating is just inaccurate. That was my point.
Actually if you reread my post, this would be an internal system, NOT player type "Page GM". The counter would be all internal with no outside player paging needed. This then also would eliminate the problem you just mentioned of full queues since there would be an internal system setup to do it. Now sure this only addresses issue #4 on your list of the problems we are having with cheats, but hey it would be a start and 1 less issue to worry about. As for the fact that sometimes you just feel in an antisocial mood, sry but GM's asking you and you not answering is the same thing (in game at least) as ignoring the Homeland Security Officers when they ask you "Hey whats in that bag" just because you feel AntiSocial that day you are in the airport. Bad comparison. Now if you meant that in regards only to being that way with a Player that asks you something that you decide to ignore so be it! I get the same way too and you have absolutley EVERY right to ignore a player! But a GM asking a player and being ignored? That is the same as an admission of guilt if you DO ignore one.A counter on using something to page a GM is kind of far fetched.
I mean we already have the player GM's paging on everyone who doesn't talk to them *rolleyes* I can't count the number of times I've been paged on because I don't feel like chatting with somebody. Hate to break it to you, I'm not paying for UO to chat with random people all the time... somedays, just like in RL, I'm anti social.
Plus, we already have a GM queue from hell as it is and you want to add to it this way? We'd go from 2 hours waits to 8 hours waits
I like the ideas coming out in this thread... it should be a "Constructive Post" and humbly request that other posters continue coming up with their ideas to discuss! Who knows maybe a Dev or something might actually see something in the post that makes sense and try to implement it! Just wishful thinking but without hope you have nothing... nada... squat!
What have you seen that is tangible that they are doing anything about the speedhacking? This isnt something thats popped up in the last few weeks or a month or even 6 months or a year. Its been going on for 2-3 years now. Just because you may have heard some dev make a vague reference to efforts to curtail speedhacking doesnt mean anything has been done or is being done. Im sorry but "years" seems like an awfully long time to allow blatant cheating thats pisses off a lot of players.
Not sure what can be done about speed hacks... someone else mentioned about "capping" people's ping to a specific limit so that noone can exceed the "posted speed limits". I am not a network person so that kind of question I would like to here more input about from our IT and Network Admin types out there in the gameworld. I know you People are out there... what can be done network wise if anything for this? My IT knowledge is only in Database Creation and Management so I couldn't even start to guess on resolutions to this.
*Suddenly wishes he were more Network Savvy*
*Suddenly wishes he were more Network Savvy*
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
This isn't really a network issue. It's a coding issue.
For this to work, code would have to be introduced that caps the speed at which players move. But if I am not mistaken, that already exists.
Speedhacks don't work like that. They trick the client into thinking they have received info from the server, whether they have or not. Then the client ignores sever info that does not concur with what the hack is sending it.
Is this right?
I am not a programmer, but I know and work with a ton of them. Also, I have never hacked or used 3rd party apps, not even UOA...so I am not 100% sure about this.
For this to work, code would have to be introduced that caps the speed at which players move. But if I am not mistaken, that already exists.
Speedhacks don't work like that. They trick the client into thinking they have received info from the server, whether they have or not. Then the client ignores sever info that does not concur with what the hack is sending it.
Is this right?
I am not a programmer, but I know and work with a ton of them. Also, I have never hacked or used 3rd party apps, not even UOA...so I am not 100% sure about this.
I think sis was just making a point about the privacy we give up to be able to take airplane, train or subway somewhere. IMHO, I see EA/Mythic alot like the guy who had me walk through the metal detector 5 TIMES! After the 3 time it was obivous to everyone but him what was setting it off. I mean a gal with 38 DDDs is a little hard to miss. Yeah being patted down by the Security matron was embrassing, but I chalk it up to doing my duty for homeland security. That said I really think they wasted mine and eveyone's time with the bra issue cause last time I checked terrorists weren't bleached blonde females in capris and flip-flops!
Same with UO/Mythic GMs they waste time on stupid stuff and people who aren't cheating instead of nailing cheaters with the ban-stick.
Take recent events for sis and I at our Fel castle. The smuck who killed us was using cheats to cast through walls, was using cheats to "Machine-Gun" mage/necro spells. He was also using speed hacks as he out ran Sis's greater Draggy and I.
Sis and I are running on AT&T U-verse's 18+ max. Which is 18 mbps or better. Sis's last test showed us at 19.5 mbps! My compter is running 1.4 ghz P4 CPU and 1 GB of ram, I can't remember my nvidia video card but it has on board ram too. Sis is running AMD 1.8 GHZ processor, 1 GB of ram and on board video (no card like moi.) Point is this smuck was blowing by us like a friggin NASCAR blowing by my VW Beetle.
We did try to report him but when you tried to target him with the "cheater target" the stupid system would say "Player does not exsist!"
There's a cheat to let you run invisible to the game so you can run the rest of your cheats!!! This is a know issue that I discussed with Jeremy after trying to report a character with particualaly vulgar name. Before anyone starts on the character name complaints are BS....I PAY to play Ultima Online not PORNO ONLINE! Okay enuff said on that.
Bottomline if the staff and GMs would actually ENFORCE THE EXSISTING RULES that would be a helluva lot better than PB.
BTW, I'm told I'd be banned by PB because of my logictech G-15 keyboard. I don't know if its true or not but that's BS telling someone they can't use a keyboard AFTER they paid 100 bucks for it.
I obstained from voting. I just can't see to point in it
I don't think PB is the anwser I think ENFORCEMENT is the anwser.
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Didn't you watch Herbie Fully Loaded?
Yeah...I have had that one before too.
Frustrating. They even have cheats now that prevent you from being reported as a cheater.
Nope. Not true.
The best solution would be BOTH!
G
Gellor
Guest
I think you missed the point of my post. It still takes GM's time to go investigate all the false positives that would be generated by a counter. So while the number of player pages for resource macroing may go down, the actual wait time for a GM to show up for anything would increase.
As a made up example, let's say right now a GM gets 25 calls from players for "resource macroing" that take 25 minutes total to address. Now under your system, they could get 50 server generated pages for "resource macroing" that take 50 minutes total to address. In an ideal world, you lose 25 player calls but gain 50 server calls... thus netting 25 new calls and adding 25 minutes of wait.
U
UOKaiser
Guest
Just adding some comments. The reason he can cast through walls is because axis problem with homes. Theres spots in homes you can get through to cast last target. It's cheezy but it's a coding problem.
And dam ya both need a upgrade those machines are about 4 years behind the times. With intel at least a core duo with at least 3 gig ram any more and you will need a 64 bit operating system to take advantage. With AMD a dual core athon x2 at least but sadly AMD is behind intel for now. Eithere way 2gig should be the minimun of ram running. Video card is important need at least a 8800 gt or gts to be a bit up to date.
The at&t theres nothing you can do with it head to broadband reports and tweak youre connection youre operating system probably aint using it to it's full advantage. Also do a trace route to youre server see if theres any problems.
Never seen a character invisible to be pointed out. Gonna have to look into that other than maybe disguise kits,incognito, either way not enough info to actually see how that is done.
Oh yea pb with banning gaming keyboards mouses is extream because you can use them to macro though macroing in UO is legal. It's hardware many use them and play like experts with them when you can bind counter mesures to a spin of the mouse wheel is very useful. Those with more better hardware enjoy there game more.
You mean GM's actually show up? I thought they were all Auto Canned Responses nowadays! Just kidding... but if the Timer system I discuss were implemented in the proper way (I wont claim to be a programmer here) but I am sure that the system would catch so many actual script running bot chars out there that eventually in time the GM's would get less and less of those type "Pages" by the "Counter System" and then would have more time to concentrate on other cheats and hacks etc. All I am trying to say is it is a trickle down effect that will be most effective in my opinion. Especially when one considers that a lot of the players who are using the resource bot type scripting are also the ones using the other variations of cheats in UO. Nock out several birds with one stone!