Taming and Scriptors (What do you do?)

[Tina Small]

I don't like the folks who run a script to get their taming gains. I've spent many boring hours working up to 120 taming on two characters and have almost reached it again with a third one. One gain per day, or every two days, or even every three days the higher you get.

However, I refuse to waste my game time trying to outsmart the scripters, especially if there's a chance that something I do could put my account at risk. I've also found that tameables that give gains spawn in plenty of other locations so it's easy to avoid the popular but safe spots that scripters apparently prefer.

What tends to annoy me the most about threads like this and prompted my post above are the suggestions about taking the animals from one area to another area or releasing aggressive animals in hopes that doing either will ruin things for a scripter. Why? Because actions like these could easily grief other players who are not scripting and who go to an area expecting to find something to tame and/or are not expecting to find someone's aggressive released pet. Maybe the people who make these suggestions can explain how you resolve the dilemma between griefing the scripters while not griefing everyone else in the process.

 

[Tina Small]

Wenchkin is right that a mark on your account is not worth it for a botter / scriptor. The scriptor would have to report you and I do believe it requires the gm's to sift throught the parties involved journals for evidence of such a harrassment. I could be wrong on that though. But it would be curious what they would see on the scriptors journal or how they would prove that someone casting a gate half to full screen away was trying to do it purposly so the guy would run in from that far away. Seem like there is alot to prove.

Anyone can save their journal to a text file and turn on the option to show names of approaching players. I doubt it would be that difficult for a scripter that's being harrassed to turn on these options, dig through the text file later on and have pretty good evidence of who was around and possibly who cast the gate spell.

 

[Kazumi the Wild]

The point is less that you might get caught, and more that, whether you're caught or not, you are violating the CoC (if we accept Tina Small's argument - I happen to do so).

I personally like Wenchy's idea that, if you're going to gate them, gate them to an inn (no, not one in the cities under Invasion). Whether you're likely to be caught or not, you shouldn't be violating the CoC and Harassment policies.

Again, there's no distinction between someone who is there as the script plays and someone who isn't, at least from our side of the screen. If it bothers you, page a GM. Don't "take the law into your own hands" by violating the CoC/Harassment policies...

Unless your personal moral code is that ethical behavior is only necesary when you have negative consequences to your behavior.

 

[Darien]

Maybe it is my own ignorance here.

I fail to see how opening a gate to the Ice Orge Lords half a a screen away to a full screen away from anyone is Harrassment. Again this is me.

I do not imply to know all the rules or how the coc implies to anything.

I just know that when I am in Luna, Brit, or anywhere and I open a gate and someone runs through it before me or even after me it is not on me. Warning messages pop up in most cases, and I cannot control the actions of others. Or thier scripts for that matter.

Opening a gate a half screen away from anyone is not a banable action. Watching some ****** run into the gate from a half screen away is not bannable either.

The point is that there is a choice when someone sees a gate. Risk it and enter not knowing where it goes? or leave it alone and be safe. Everyone has that choice. Scriptors just make it so thier choice is more predictable.
And again that is thier choice for running a script.

And yes it comes down to ethics. I personally know GM's do nothing. I have reported the same scriptor multiple times and yet the gm's say each time we will look into it, and guess what I still see this person scripting weeks after the first report. (And this is daily scripting mind you)

So either page a GM again and wait hours for said GM or open a gate a half screen away and see if they make the choice to go in or not.
Well I know what I am going to do and have been doing since I made the original post on this thread.

 

[Kazumi the Wild]

Why not read the CoC? The Harassment policy?

Does it say that its ok to do something the other player wouldn't like to happen to them, intentionally (and this is you considering the ethics of your own actions, not some judge who wouldn't know), so long as THAT player is doing something illegal? Are your ethics telling you that two wrongs (the other player's for using scripts, unattended or not, and you for intentionally violating the CoC and/or harassment policy) can make a right?

I'm a big fan of personal responsibility, don't get me wrong. If the harassment policy were different, i.e. gave a specific out for these sorts of actions, I'd say, sure, show that scripter that there can be consequences for violating the terms of the game. Doing so when I've agreed not to do so (which I'm fairly sure everyone who plays UO has done, even if a small minority actually READ the damn thing), when I fully know my intentions are to cause grief, anger, annoyance, etc., all to "teach" the offending player a lesson, strikes me as a violation of ethics.

A small violation, one that really satisfies a pretty deepset need for people, myself sometimes included. We're humans, and we've evolved (physically, culturally, and socially) with the ability to unilaterally inflict reasonable amounts of harm to those that harm us for the purpose of modifying their behavior.

But if to do so, you must violate terms you've agreed to before... that doesn't strike you as a violation of ethics? Apply the same situation to real life... a neighbor leaves his garbage cans on the sidewalk all week, even though the homeowner's association's codes forbid it. They're large, they're smelly, they take up the sidewalk... they're a hassle, and make the neighborhood a slightly worse place.

If the HOA doesn't do anything about them, even if you call them multiple times, would you feel justified in tossing the garbage cans into the street or over the canyon or into a pile of fertilizer?

 

[Darien]

If the HOA doesn't do anything about them, even if you call them multiple times, would you feel justified in tossing the garbage cans into the street or over the canyon or into a pile of fertilizer?

If these garbage cans were blocking people from gaining access to my house or me from getting to any part of my property I would put them in the middle of thier driveway as a subtle hint or atleast on thier property so they were not interfering with mine. Of course I would first ask them personally to please move them. I would not call the HOA since I believe that talking it out with the person first is always the best way to deal with things.

You are right we are talking ethics here. I would much rather ask the scriptor to please stop. We both know that will not get us anywhere. I am not a big fan of calling a GM either. Though I have done it and have seen no change in anything. Even though I think it is justified a scriptor gets banned for his actions I never did like the feeling of being the one to cause such an action.

The great thing about Ethics is everyone can have thier own views and sets of ethics. I personally think that opening a gate and seeing the scriptor go through is much more forgiving and nicer than calling a GM and possibly getting his account banned. One it takes less time. It gives a small subtle hint that people figured out he was a scriptor and it might make him think twice about doing it again. And it does not make him quit the game or either hate the game because he lost everything because he happened to try the script one time and got caught.

I am all about respect and giving people chances for redemption. Sometimes I do not come across as such. But I am also a fan that little life lessons help drive a point home.

Am I a good person. Yes I am.
Will I go out of my way to help people. You betcha.
Will I stand there without saying anything or doing anything when someone is disrespectful or doing something to annoy others. Nope.

After all this is a video game. We can apply all the real life situations we want.
If it was real life and someone was being harrassed would I say something. Yes.
If it was a potential nuesance or problems for me or my family. I would get it moved or move it myself.
Would I break any laws to make sure me or my family were not effected by someone else breaking a law. Maybe depends on situation.

I will always take the peaceful way first of talking. But after that things can happen. And I will do what it take to prtect the ones I love and to ensure we are safe and secure.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

 

[Robinton]

Seems to me, most of the posts don't take into account that when the bot/script is running, most of the time there is not a player on the other end. (ie at work, shopping or mowing the lawn) So I would say that while it may not be correct, it may not be a bad thing to nudge them in the direction of not doing that. To use the garbage can example, put the cans where they are supposed to be, leave messages (follow through the gate to the inn room and leave a renamed animal there with don't script as a name maybe. a non scripter wouldn't go through the gate in the first place would they?)
Comes down to, in my mind, if there is not a person on the other end at the time you gate, is it really harassment? Is it harassment to shoot a robber in the knee if he is robbing your house?

 

[Kazumi the Wild]

Darien:

Not saying you're a BAD person. I'm simply saying that gating someone to a place where that character will die, with the intention to do so, seems to be a violation of the code of conduct you agreed to follow.

You speak of actually being "nice" to the scriptor by killing them instead of paging a GM on them. This is not a "X or Y, no other choices" situation. Several people have suggested gating someone to an inn instead of to a dangerous location, perhaps with an aptly named pet to provide the same message you want to confer - "You're obviously scripting, buddy... next time, you might get paged on" - without harassing the player.

No one is perfect, especially me. But I'm a philosopher... I deal with hypotheticals all the time.

My apologies if, at any time, I seemed to imply you weren't GENERALLY a good person. No doubt you are. But pointing out when someone usually good does something that might be against their normal code of ethics (in this case, arguably violating a previous agreement) needn't be an accusation of ill-temper or evil nature, but can instead be a helpful tool to understanding one's intuitive and logical processes when dealing with ethical decisions one makes.

Luckily, I have plenty of friends who provide me innumerable tools of exactly this nature, on the web and off. They're so generous, its astounding!

 

[Darien]

No worries Kazumi. It is very late for me and I am dead tired. lol
I tend to go a tad bit on the extreme drama side when i am this tired. No offense or implied meanings were taken.

While your suggestion of the gate to the inn with a animal labled that way is a very nice thing and it is something I may try once. I wonder if it will do more harm than good. I am not sure how the scripts run but will the script not be running still in the inn. That and with the animal there will it not draw more attention and cause the reported status to go up.

Now I am not against reporting and banning. Let it rain down on them. lol
But I do like my subtle hints.

And on review to be honest i would prolly take care of the trash cans atleast once for them. Then I would have the chat and if it persist just set it of out the way on thier property as to not block mine or hinder people from getting to mine.

 

[Wenchkin]

Thing is, there are a lot of "non illegal" ways you can kill players in Tram. In Fel these are quite acceptable, but even though I know of several ways to guarantee some scripters die, I know that you shouldn't kill players in Tram and expect a GM to side with you. This is one reason why I don't like being in a Tram facet, because of that whole "you can't touch me" thing some of these cheats have. Not that it's worked in their favour yet lol.

If you keep gating bots into deadly areas then EA may well decide to block all gates from that pen or you could find a GM turns up and bans your backside. So if you want to gate bots use the inn/safe spot option. Yes it's funny to see a cheat die, I've delighted in meeting them on their forays to Fel and I laughed at the tamer ghost chasing llamas (esp when he got suspended). But using the lack of a rule to gate bots could lead to consequences that you won't like, and you may later regret the gating.

I've had a couple take a few attempts to get banned, but the problem is the ones who are around the PC. And those will see their logs and know who gated them. It isn't a good idea to play Russian Roulette with your account in that way, and it's not necessary either.

Wenchy

 

[Skrylox]

I guess you can always tame all the bulls, load them on a boat just off of the coast and "work" animal lore.

 

[Turdnugget]

Or you say you're opening a gate to Luna... and accidently click on the wrong rune to gate from. It's happend to me numerous times =/

 

[Kazumi the Wild]

Or you say you're opening a gate to Luna... and accidently click on the wrong rune to gate from. It's happend to me numerous times =/

To save the village, we had to burn the village.

 

[TimberWolf]

To save the village, we had to burn the village.

sounds like Callie and My Lai

 

[Kazumi the Wild]

Like a lot of things, i'm aware of the quote and its intended usage without knowing its origins with certainty... but yes, I'm fairly sure that's where it comes from.

 

[TimberWolf]

Like a lot of things, i'm aware of the quote and its intended usage without knowing its origins with certainty... but yes, I'm fairly sure that's where it comes from.

When I googled "origins of" I found a lot of quotes relating it to vietnam, but not necessarily My Lai....

 

[Kazumi the Wild]

My Lai being merely a particularly well-publicized instance of what happened to MANY villages across Vietnam, I don't see how me saying that 'what happened to village X and Y [where Z happened, I believe you imply, yes?]' is the origin of a saying necessarily contradicts a generalized origin of "supposed Vietnam strategy where Z happens to villages".

If it seemed like I was saying that the specific massacres that occured in either of the villages you mentioned were DIRECTLY the source of the "to save the village, we must destroy it" quote, please forgive me: I meant the general stategy across Vietnam, of which My Lai was one of the few instances made known to the general public.

Edit: We are woefully off-topic here: Back to suggestions for players to violate the RoC to punish players violating the RoC?

 

[TimberWolf]

My Lai being merely a particularly well-publicized instance of what happened to MANY villages across Vietnam, I don't see how me saying that 'what happened to village X and Y [where Z happened, I believe you imply, yes?]' is the origin of a saying necessarily contradicts a generalized origin of "supposed Vietnam strategy where Z happens to villages".

Edit: We are woefully off-topic here: Back to suggestions for players to violate the RoC to punish players violating the RoC?

I hope to hell My Lai wasn't a regular occurrence in Vietnam, nor is there any proof to that accusation.

My Lai was frankly the darkest day in US military history. 500+ women children and elderly ****d and slaughtered by a company of US Marines.

Off topic sure...but something worth remembering..definitely.

Those who refuse to learn History are forced to relive it!

And possibly more on point..... During the court Martial of LT Callie it was established that there can be no justification for breaking the ROEs.

So drawing the comparison back to our topic:
Violating the code of conduct to stop scripters is still Wrong!
Two wrong don't make a Right!!

 

[TimberWolf]

but there really wasn't a point to any of that.....

which fits with this...pointless thread

 

[Darien]

The topic was never about suggestions to how to break the rules of conduct or anything like that. The original post was meant as a vent on the topic of scriptors and Taming. Every shard has these scriptors in the same pen for countless hours.

I was frustrated trying to combat them for bulls. So I posted here. As I have posted I am not against the Gating a half screen away and watch them run into the gate. Thier choice, their script type of thought in my mind applies.

However the Vietnam refrences are a tad out on the extreme side. Very extreme. As it has been sooo plainly put. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Though two wrongs do not make a right the history of the USA has proven more times than naught that when people stand up for themselves and try to correct wrongs it does not go un-noticed and even good things come out of them. Examples: Womens rights, Slavery, Religious Freedom,
The same can be said about the abuse of such things bring hardships and destroy things.

I have thought very hard on this issue and personally it is all about one's own internal code of conduct, and dealing with what you gamble with. I choose to gate if I see a scriptor and I will pay for it if it soo needs to be. Cheating is cheating. Wrong is wrong. Black is black. Everyone has an opinion. and everyone has a grey area in which they will exisist. This is mine.