For those of you who whine about stealthers...

[TheScoundrelRico]

Maybe you should take some time to talk with TnT about how they handle them.

I was stealthing around this weekend, and on a regular basis...any time I started stealthing around them...I would get revealed...constantly. It got to the point that I just stealthed away. (even though, I did get a look at all of their empty packs)

Seems they have someone who travels around with them who tracks and detects on a regular basis...good job by them. *shakes fist in the air*...la

 

[-Whiskey-]

I think my guards should have attacked you in Brit the other day. For snooping around my territory.:gun:

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Bah...I paid them off to leave me alone...la

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

Maybe you should take some time to talk with TnT about how they handle them.

I was stealthing around this weekend, and on a regular basis...any time I started stealthing around them...I would get revealed...constantly. It got to the point that I just stealthed away. (even though, I did get a look at all of their empty packs)

Seems they have someone who travels around with them who tracks and detects on a regular basis...good job by them. *shakes fist in the air*...la

That is pure genious. I can't believe no one thought to use track and detect before!

Stealth is perfectly balanced after all!

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Since you seem to be one of the vocal minority when it comes to nerfing stealth...maybe you should learn those skills...la

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

Since you seem to be one of the vocal minority when it comes to nerfing stealth...maybe you should learn those skills...la

We've had this conversation before.

You still don't get it.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Since you seem to be one of the vocal minority when it comes to nerfing stealth...maybe you should learn those skills...la

We've had this conversation before.

You still don't get it.

Sure I do. I was getting revealed as soon as I hid again. So the timer was working just fine for them. Why is it you seem to fail at being able to reveal stealthers?...la

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

Sure I do. I was getting revealed as soon as I hid again. So the timer was working just fine for them. Why is it you seem to fail at being able to reveal stealthers?...la

Do you ever stealth in a group or do you stealth solo?

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

What does that matter? Getting revealed is getting revealed...la

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

What does that matter? Getting revealed is getting revealed...la

Answer the question please, I'm trying to simplify this for you.

Do you stealth mostly solo or in a group?

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Solo...la

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

Solo...la

Ok, now have you ever used tracking?

How many people can be actively tracked at one time?

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Ok, now have you ever used tracking?

How many people can be actively tracked at one time?

Gee, if it's so hard to track multiple targets...maybe you could get multiple detectors/trackers?...la

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

Gee, if it's so hard to track multiple targets...maybe you could get multiple detectors/trackers?...la

This is the first place your logic deviates from mine. Because you stealth solo, you see tracking as an effective skill. However, most people stealth in groups. Therefore, tracking isn't very effective.

Next question, do you use stealth primarily offensively or defensively. In other words, are you trying to avoid detection or getting yourself in a position to attack?

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Next question, do you use stealth primarily offensively or defensively. In other words, are you trying to avoid detection or getting yourself in a position to attack?

Both...la

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

Both...la

What kind of offensive are we talking about?

Snooping and stealing or something else?

 

[OldAsTheHills]

Maybe you should take some time to talk with TnT about how they handle them.

I was stealthing around this weekend, and on a regular basis...any time I started stealthing around them...I would get revealed...constantly. It got to the point that I just stealthed away. (even though, I did get a look at all of their empty packs)

Seems they have someone who travels around with them who tracks and detects on a regular basis...good job by them. *shakes fist in the air*...la

So, you noticed that people are macroing Tracking and Detect Hidden skills.
Surprised this did not happen sooner. I wonder what is the minimal value needed to effectively reveal anyone?

*stares*
Yahaxithonix

 

[Kat]

Maybe you should take some time to talk with TnT about how they handle them.

I was stealthing around this weekend, and on a regular basis...any time I started stealthing around them...I would get revealed...constantly. It got to the point that I just stealthed away. (even though, I did get a look at all of their empty packs)

Seems they have someone who travels around with them who tracks and detects on a regular basis...good job by them. *shakes fist in the air*...la

If you're talking about Brit between the TB base and the inn and also in Skara Brae, that was me. Since I stink at the PeeVeePee, I figured I could put some other skills to good use, but I didn't have tracking on when we were in Brit. I figured you were there for one reason and that was to steal from players, so I kept detecting around us until I noticed you moving away, then I followed you until you mounted up and left. heh

 

[Kat]

Gee, if it's so hard to track multiple targets...maybe you could get multiple detectors/trackers?...la

This is the first place your logic deviates from mine. Because you stealth solo, you see tracking as an effective skill. However, most people stealth in groups. Therefore, tracking isn't very effective.

Next question, do you use stealth primarily offensively or defensively. In other words, are you trying to avoid detection or getting yourself in a position to attack?

MM - This is where your logic fails. When you have people stealthing in groups, you will only need to track one of them to know where the rest are. One use of the detect skill will reveal all or most of them whenever your group is ready to go on the attack. A dedicated tracker/detector is a good character to have around. Not all of us feel the need to be the hero.

Tracking and detect are quite effective. You simply seem to enjoy complaining.

 

[Touzoko]

MM - This is where your logic fails. When you have people stealthing in groups, you will only need to track one of them to know where the rest are. One use of the detect skill will reveal all or most of them whenever your group is ready to go on the attack. A dedicated tracker/detector is a good character to have around. Not all of us feel the need to be the hero.

Tracking and detect are quite effective. You simply seem to enjoy complaining.

Hmm. This one has 100 hide, 120 stealth (real, if that matters) 90 dex, and is elf. Is it much harder to track/detect this character, as opposed to gm hide, 80 stealth, and lesser dex, on a human? Was wondering if the extra effort was worth it.

Thank you for answer.

 

[Kat]

Hmm. This one has 100 hide, 120 stealth (real, if that matters) 90 dex, and is elf. Is it much harder to track/detect this character, as opposed to gm hide, 80 stealth, and lesser dex, on a human? Was wondering if the extra effort was worth it.

Thank you for answer.

Yes, 120 stealth is a little harder to detect. Its not impossible to detect, but I will fail more. To reveal you, I really need to have an idea where you are and detect close to you, rather than in the general area. At 120 stealth, you can also run more steps while hidden.

 

[MerchantAtHome]

MM - This is where your logic fails. When you have people stealthing in groups, you will only need to track one of them to know where the rest are. One use of the detect skill will reveal all or most of them whenever your group is ready to go on the attack. A dedicated tracker/detector is a good character to have around. Not all of us feel the need to be the hero.

Tracking and detect are quite effective. You simply seem to enjoy complaining.

Several problems I can see with that logic.

First, to do what you suggest is going to require that the detector run hide/stealth. You aren't going to get close enough (and live) without it. So, to combat hide/stealth, a character needs hide stealth. It is similar to needing a greater dragon to kill another greater dragon. But that isn't a problem either.

*winks*

Second, even if you do detect, the hiders will hide again in the time it takes to make a single keystroke. Then, you have to wait out the detect timer (unless you are bypassing it), which is the same and the hide timer, so, the next time you detect, they will insta-hide again. Or, alternatively, they have stealthed away and since only one hider can be tracked at once, you aren't going to find them all.

Finally, detect isn't nearly as effective as you make it out to be. At gm detect, it isn't unusual to fail 3 to 4 times in a row. At 8 seconds between attempts, it could take 30 seconds or more to detect a hider standing right next to you.

I don't expect you to admit that hide/stealth is overpowered. If I were a gm of a guild that was greater than half (50.2 percent according to MyUO) stealthers, I wouldn't admit it either.

 

[Monolith]

What kind of offensive are we talking about?

Snooping and stealing or something else?

What is this???? 20 Questions??????

 

[Kat]

Several problems I can see with that logic.

First, to do what you suggest is going to require that the detector run hide/stealth. You aren't going to get close enough (and live) without it. So, to combat hide/stealth, a character needs hide stealth. It is similar to needing a greater dragon to kill another greater dragon. But that isn't a problem either.

*winks*

Second, even if you do detect, the hiders will hide again in the time it takes to make a single keystroke. Then, you have to wait out the detect timer (unless you are bypassing it), which is the same and the hide timer, so, the next time you detect, they will insta-hide again. Or, alternatively, they have stealthed away and since only one hider can be tracked at once, you aren't going to find them all.

Finally, detect isn't nearly as effective as you make it out to be. At gm detect, it isn't unusual to fail 3 to 4 times in a row. At 8 seconds between attempts, it could take 30 seconds or more to detect a hider standing right next to you.

I don't expect you to admit that hide/stealth is overpowered. If I were a gm of a guild that was greater than half (50.2 percent according to MyUO) stealthers, I wouldn't admit it either.

As Rico pointed out, I had no problem detecting him and the timer didn't have much bearing on locating him again. I also have no problem detecting numerous KOC/JSV members when they have several stealthers on the field at once. Like I said before, it seems you enjoy complaining.

 

[MerchantAtHome]

As Rico pointed out, I had no problem detecting him and the timer didn't have much bearing on locating him again. I also have no problem detecting numerous KOC/JSV members when they have several stealthers on the field at once. Like I said before, it seems you enjoy complaining.

Rico stealths solo. So, tracking is effective against him because well, it is just him. It is not nearly as effective against groups for the reasons I just explained.

 

[K'torr]

The biggest imbalance I see to the Hide/Stealth vs Track/Reveal debate is H/S is more useful for the points invested.

H/S can be used for, as said, positioning for an attack, or evading attack.
It can be used for scouting and and intelligence gathering.
For traveling freely through very inhospitable areas.

Only use T/R has is finding and revealing Hidden players.

 

[kelmo]

What the hell are you saying Kat? You mean if you have the right skills in the right place it can be balanced? And Rico agrees?

 

[MerchantAtHome]

The biggest imbalance I see to the Hide/Stealth vs Track/Reveal debate is H/S is more useful for the points invested.

H/S can be used for, as said, positioning for an attack, or evading attack.
It can be used for scouting and and intelligence gathering.
For traveling freely through very inhospitable areas.

Only use T/R has is finding and revealing Hidden players.

True, and the thing is T/R isn't very good at that.

If you look at the skill average for the four largest guilds on Siege (Sixty percent of that population is TnT/Myth), you will see that slightly less than 50 percent of the shard is GM hiding.

Ask yourself then why only about 5 percent of that same group runs detect and less than 3 percent run tracking.

The answer: it just doesn't work well enough to justify the 200 points.

 

[Hattori Hanzo]

We don't normally reveal tactics, but for the sake of more balance... think two revealers.. or one conflag and then a reveal... or... no that's enough for anyone with some imagination and rudimentary understanding of the game to move on past the thought that only an exploit is effective in situations that go badly for them.

Good discussion often arises from respectful commentary.

 

[Touzoko]

Isn't skill title for track and detect scout?

No one cares to BE scout- they all desire glorious warrior name and abilities, or powerful mage abilities.
To find hiders, there must be sacrifice- some one must be scout. Is honorable profession. Why unpopular?

 

[MerchantAtHome]

We don't normally reveal tactics, but for the sake of more balance... think two revealers.. or one conflag and then a reveal... or... no that's enough for anyone with some imagination and rudimentary understanding of the game to move on past the thought that only an exploit is effective in situations that go badly for them.

Good discussion often arises from respectful commentary.

Multiple revealers is going to be more effective than one. Unfortunately, that logic doesn't address the fact that to get close enough to do their job, they are going to need hide/stealth themselves.

But again, it isn't overpowered.

 

[Kat]

Isn't skill title for track and detect scout?

No one cares to BE scout- they all desire glorious warrior name and abilities, or powerful mage abilities.
To find hiders, there must be sacrifice- some one must be scout. Is honorable profession. Why unpopular?

You hit the nail on the head and even answered your own question in the process, Touzoko!

 

[Hattori Hanzo]

Multiple revealers is going to be more effective than one. Unfortunately, that logic doesn't address the fact that to get close enough to do their job, they are going to need hide/stealth themselves.

But again, it isn't overpowered.

In the multi-player field battles I am accustomed to in game (as well as real life), things are extremely fluid. The dynamics of a large, often somewhat chaotic fight leaves provides lots of opportunity, some favoring and some opposing the stealthers.

Stealthers get revealed for a variety of reasons, as simple as running into another stealther.

I agree with you that stealth/ hiding is in no way overpowered. If it were, there would be far more stealthers.

 

[MerchantAtHome]

I agree with you that stealth/ hiding is in no way overpowered. If it were, there would be far more stealthers.

Good point. Half the shard is in no way an indication.

I for one think that everyone should run hide and stealth, half isn't nearly enough. This game is so much more fun when it isn't crowded by people you can actually see and interact with.

You should start a post in UHall letting everyone know how much better hide and stealth is on Siege. Maybe you can get them to change to the same system?

I won't remind them that they had to make a design change because when they did have that system that we have now everyone there hated it.

I bet they've forgotten!

 

[K'torr]

Ah, I remember the days when Stealth was considered wasted skill points.
When you had to hide, wait 10 seconds, then hit stealth.
When you had to count our steps and you could only take 1 step per 10 points in Stealth.
Had to wait 10 seconds before you hit that Stealth Macro again and take another 10 steps.
And if you took 11 steps, OOoOoOOooOo.

I still trained it.

 

[nightstalker22]

Good point. Half the shard is in no way an indication.

I for one think that everyone should run hide and stealth, half isn't nearly enough. This game is so much more fun when it isn't crowded by people you can actually see and interact with.

You should start a post in UHall letting everyone know how much better hide and stealth is on Siege. Maybe you can get them to change to the same system?

I won't remind them that they had to make a design change because when they did have that system that we have now everyone there hated it.

I bet they've forgotten!

I sometimes run this template:

100 hiding
_80 stealth
_50 Detect Hidden
_50 Tracking

It works, not very well, but it works... stop complaining, my offensive template suffers for having stealth, and it REALLY suffers when I add tracking and detect to it, so while I may have the advantage in being able to pick where and when I fight, my advantages are gone the moment I reveal, I am at a disadvantage then, as the person I am attacking has a full template set up for killing.

 

[MerchantAtHome]

I sometimes run this template:

100 hiding
_80 stealth
_50 Detect Hidden
_50 Tracking

It works, not very well, but it works... stop complaining, my offensive template suffers for having stealth, and it REALLY suffers when I add tracking and detect to it, so while I may have the advantage in being able to pick where and when I fight, my advantages are gone the moment I reveal, I am at a disadvantage then, as the person I am attacking has a full template set up for killing.

Water is wet.

 

[kelmo]

It is a tough shard... You don't like stealthers? Combat them or don't. It is the way it is.

Siege is the ultimate shard. Team work rules. Yet solo players can still make their mark.

A solo stealther has little chance against a good team.

A solo stealther has a great chance against an unprepared team.

 

[Hattori Hanzo]

Good point. Half the shard is in no way an indication.

Here is a handy link. Find me a guild with 50% stealth and hiding.

http://town.uo.com/guilds/shard_13.html

I will be busy sneaking up on people, with my 12-ton dragon in tow. I can't figure out why most people know when I am around.

 

[MerchantAtHome]

It is a tough shard... You don't like stealthers? Combat them or don't. It is the way it is.

Siege is the ultimate shard. Team work rules. Yet solo players can still make their mark.

A solo stealther has little chance against a good team.

A solo stealther has a great chance against an unprepared team.

It isn't an issue of me liking or disliking stealthers.

The issue is whether or not hide/stealth is properly balanced. When half the shard runs hide/stealth and less than 5 percent of the shard runs the skills that supposedly counter it, the numbers would suggest something is out of balance.

Hide and stealth don't necessarily have to be nerfed. Maybe, detect and tracking need a boost? Maybe, area effect spells should work on hiders (holy light, wither)? Insert your solution here.

The fact is when production shards had our ruleset, it was a big problem. So, they instituted passive reveal. We didn't get it. Then, when too many people on production shards were getting revealed, they increased the timer on detect hidden and lowered its chances to work.

So, we are playing with a completely unbalanced system because we are stuck with the nerfs to passive reveal even though we don't have it.

Don't take it personally. It isn't anyones fault (other than developers who have long since left.) It is however, in need of correction.

 

[MerchantAtHome]

Here is a handy link. Find me a guild with 50% stealth and hiding.

The first two will do.

Do you understand how MyUO calculates skill averages?

 

[kelmo]

You know Hat...

Some know how to to stealth. Some know how to negate stealth. Some cry nerf...

 

[MerchantAtHome]

You know Hat...

Some know how to to stealth. Some know how to negate stealth. Some cry nerf...

Some know how to negate stealth?

C'mon Kelmo. You are one person whom I would expect to be able to look at this rationally.

 

[Hattori Hanzo]

The issue is whether or not hide/stealth is properly balanced. When half the shard runs hide/stealth and less than 5 percent of the shard runs the skills that supposedly counter it, the numbers would suggest something is out of balance.

The numbers you present here makes one think things are pretty well balanced against the stealther. If only 5% of the people need the counter skill to handle 50% who have stealth, then it favors non-stealthers. If 50% of population needed the counters to cope with the 50% stealthers, there would be balance.

However, the game does not work this way. There is a near infinite (at least for the sake of argument) number of ways a person can play his character template. There are a variety of tactics for dealing with each of the numerous basic templates. So you can't look at the percentage of some skill and determine whether it is overpowered based on the presence or absence of another skill.

For example; I am a stealther through and through. I get killed the most by a group of 3-4 necro-mages and other forms of mage. The people killing me often have neither detect nor tracking (though I hate it when they are joined by a tracker). Damn tracking is over-powered .

 

[kelmo]

I am. I have 5 characters on Siege. Only one has hide/stealth. He is a thief. Go figure. I run solo for the most part. Some revealer was owning my ass today.

I have a character training new skills. Soon I will own the stealthers. *nods*

Siege is what it is. I will adapt.

 

[MerchantAtHome]

The numbers you present here makes one think things are pretty well balanced against the stealther. If only 5% of the people need the counter skill to handle 50% who have stealth, then it favors non-stealthers. If 50% of population needed the counters to cope with the 50% stealthers, there would be balance.

However, the game does not work this way. There is a near infinite (at least for the sake of argument) number of ways a person can play his character template. There are a variety of tactics for dealing with each of the numerous basic templates. So you can't look at the percentage of some skill and determine whether it is overpowered based on the presence or absence of another skill.

For example; I am a stealther through and through. I get killed the most by a group of 3-4 necro-mages and other forms of mage. The people killing me often have neither detect nor tracking (though I hate it when they are joined by a tracker). Damn tracking is over-powered .

For the most part, people don't use detect and track because they aren't very effective. It isn't because they aren't needed.

Have you ever run detect and track?

I agree with you that for the most part there are a wide variety of templates and counters to those templates. However, ask a stealther how to counter hide/stealth and they will almost universally respond "Get track and detect."
While that combination may work somewhat against a lone stealther, it is inadequate to deal with groups for reasons already explained.

Again, have you ever run detect and track?

You are getting killed by necro mages? If you choose not to be killed by them you shouldn't be. They have no way to effectively reveal you.

That is the problem with hide/stealth. There is no skill set I have to have against a mage. I can run without resist by using a trapped box. I can counter mana vamp by having mana regen.

There is no certain skill set I have to have against a dexxer. I can counter with a weapon skill, or use a mage weapon, or defend with a pet, etc...

What is the counter for hide/stealth? Detect and track do not work reliably. Conflags have a very limited AOE. Even if you can reveal one, smokebombs are instantaneous.

Look, maybe hide/stealth doesn't need to be nerfed. Maybe it is just fine the way it is. But, if you aren't going to nerf it, then other changes have to be made to balance it.

I'm happy to listen to those. I don't claim to have the ultimate solution. I just know the way it is isn't working.

 

[MerchantAtHome]

I am. I have 5 characters on Siege. Only one has hide/stealth. He is a thief. Go figure. I run solo for the most part. Some revealer was owning my ass today.

I have a character training new skills. Soon I will own the stealthers. *nods*

Siege is what it is. I will adapt.

So, you are training detect/track now?

As someone who has twice as many characters on the shard as you do (with about 40 years total time) and several with hide/stealth and detect/track, I can tell you from experience, you are for the most part wasting your time.

You may be able to combat Rico with your skills, but that will be about it.

Edit: That is not meant to be a slight on Rico. It is simply meant to illustrate that tracking and detect can be somewhat effective against a solo thief.

 

[kelmo]

Tracking/Reveal is pretty effective if you suspect the whole shard is hiding.

 

[MerchantAtHome]

Tracking/Reveal is pretty effective if you suspect the whole shard is hiding.

Is that supposed to be funny?

If the whole shard is hiding, congratulations, you can track exactly one person at a time.

If the whole shard is hiding, you can reveal about 1/3 of them (assuming they are all within a 8 tiles of you) and they will instantly re-hide.

Wow. That is effective.

 

[Hattori Hanzo]

Is that supposed to be funny?

If the whole shard is hiding, congratulations, you can track exactly one person at a time.

If the whole shard is hiding, you can reveal about 1/3 of them (assuming they are all within a 8 tiles of you) and they will instantly re-hide.

Wow. That is effective.

I have been killed by pretty much every kind of player because I take risks. I have also killed pretty much every kind of player... because I take risks. I play Siege because there is more risk here than on the Trammel shards. To enjoy the risks, I temper my enthusiasm with a heafty does of tactics. This means I sometimes shy away when I face a greater chance of losing due to the situation (numbers, etc). However, I play with a group which requires that I take even greater risks for my friends (as they do to help me).

As I mentioned earlier, there are a number of ways to get revealed in a heated battle, including running to keep up with the fight. Also, there is no way to effectively attack without showing (other than rez killing with a shadow strike - which I cannot do because I have no weapon skill).

Once showing, a stealth / tamer (like me) is at huge risk to a group of mages and necros (no parry / bushido / resist spells / or offense of much use). Try getting away from a group of determined KOC spell-casters intent on dropping you to get the dragon off the field. It is an intense experience.

Sure a person could walk around the game stealthed and never show. He would never die. Whoo-hoo.

Oh yes, I have run various templates with tracking and / or detect. I find it useful in a variety of ways.