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Are Illegal 3rd Party Programs Killing UO?

Do Illegal 3rd party programs hurt UO?

  • Yes they hurt the game

    Votes: 121 68.4%
  • No they dont hurt the game

    Votes: 52 29.4%
  • I am not old enough to vote

    Votes: 4 2.3%

  • Total voters
    177
  • Poll closed .
T

T_Amon_from_work

Guest
The program is non-sentient thus cannot determine good/evil. The human using it is supposedly sentient and CAN determine good/evil (right/wrong).

From a strict sense the program itself cannot/does not harm UO until executed. Much like a hammer in the toolbox cannot/does not harm unless used by ... you guessed it ... a human.
 
A

AesSedai

Guest
http://videogames.yahoo.com/news-1251953

It was a US district court that agreed Illegal 3rd Party Programs hurt (kill) online games. Sure, semantically a person made it & the program doesn't have a soul; but did the person go and write it on every cheater's computer that used it, or did the distribution and use of the program cause the damage? The duck is a duck.

Sorry, gotta run or I would play catch a little more.
 

Violence

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
THEY DO NOT, THEY *HINDER* PLAYERS AND MAKE THEM *SLOWER* THAN SOME ELITE PVPERS IN HERE.

And there is NO SPEEDHACK. Just connections at 99.9% the speed of Light with NASA-Grade hardware and Tweaking software conveniently based half a meter from the Server's physical location. And the geniuses operating all that of course, the elite PvPers mentioned.

...
.....
.......
......... :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :loser:

Oh and.. yes. Although they killed it long ago, they are not "killing" it just now. A rhetoric question.
 

HD2300

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Just look at what is left of UO's PvP population. Almost everyone left PvPing in UO is running at least 1 illegal program.
Which is why nothing is done against 3rd party programs. Things can be done in software and with GMs, but it isnt because cheaters and scriptors are paying customers too. Remember the outcry against Punkbuster?

The big loss in subscribers is in the last 1 and 3/4 years is more due to the lack of content and nerfs to BOS/LJing/Mining/loot, not 3rd party programs that have been around forever.
 

Duskofdead

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I'm pretty amazed, sometimes.

1. Yes I'm aware third party programs don't have souls and can't contemplate existential terror, good and evil, moral relativism, etc. etc. Why this needs to be explicitly stated is beyond me.

2. The use of illegal third party programs is, by definition, illegal, isn't it? I'm not aware how arguing that something can be "benevolent" makes it okay to break the TOS or use illegal third party programs just on an individual's subjective say-so. If you think something is totally benign, petition EA to make it an approved feature. Or, break the rule and use it in secret. But don't try to rewrite the rules and say that actually you aren't doing anything wrong because you, personally, have decided that an illegal third party program you run isn't harmful to others. Try that argument if you work in electronic money transfers or when playing electronic games in a casino, see how far it gets you.

3. Yes I am sure there are a large number of third party programs which do not confer, on the player, any advantage that is not normally present in the game. However that does not "cancel out" the negative impact on the overall game community that the ones that DO provide cheats or exploits have. Nor is it an argument that we should keep the cheating and exploitive programs and view them as non-harmful because I want to keep my UO Assist or UO Macro or whatever.

4. Any program which in any way allows a player to perform actions quicker, more effectively, or in some way bends or exploits the rules or game bugs in such a way that it gives them an advantage (let's just say, as an example, something that lets you swing your weapon 2x as fast as anyone else holding the same weapon, or something that somehow tweaks with the game to make monsters drop 2x as much gold, or allows you to click an item and click an open inventory slot and dupe an item, or whatever) harms the game. It may be good for YOU. It may be good for your FRIENDS. It may make you perceive that YOUR game experience is now easier, more enjoyable and more rewarding. But any of those actions harm someone else's game, or everyone else's game. Maybe you're the best PK on the shard. Maybe you have millions upon millions of duped gold and you routinely buy out all the rares, driving the prices up for everyone else. Maybe you can duplicate rares and other desirable objects and load them onto your Luna vendor everyday in large quantities, leaving dozens of people who earned the item legitimately trying to sell it on their non-Luna house vendor for 7 weeks.


Basically, if your third party program in ANY way allows you to do something the average player could not do, without superhuman reflexes and abilities or in the in-game provided macro program, and confers any other sort of extra-regular advantage to your gameplay..... you are harming the game. No, you're not harming the code, you're not making the soul of UO bleed, and people are just tossing out scarecrows by even trying to drag the argument off into making those distinctions. But you are conferring an advantage on yourself which affects the economy, the game balance, the availability of in game resources, the cost of goods and the value of gold, for everyone else. You are the person chugging along at 85 in an area with a 45 mph speed limit everyone else is observing. Or the person who flies up a lane that says "lane closed ahead" and forces his way into the front of a long bumper to bumper line of people who were waiting their turn. That's what you're doing, either directly or indirectly.
 
U

UOKaiser

Guest
I'm pretty amazed, sometimes.

1. Yes I'm aware third party programs don't have souls and can't contemplate existential terror, good and evil, moral relativism, etc. etc. Why this needs to be explicitly stated is beyond me.

2. The use of illegal third party programs is, by definition, illegal, isn't it? I'm not aware how arguing that something can be "benevolent" makes it okay to break the TOS or use illegal third party programs just on an individual's subjective say-so. If you think something is totally benign, petition EA to make it an approved feature. Or, break the rule and use it in secret. But don't try to rewrite the rules and say that actually you aren't doing anything wrong because you, personally, have decided that an illegal third party program you run isn't harmful to others. Try that argument if you work in electronic money transfers or when playing electronic games in a casino, see how far it gets you.

3. Yes I am sure there are a large number of third party programs which do not confer, on the player, any advantage that is not normally present in the game. However that does not "cancel out" the negative impact on the overall game community that the ones that DO provide cheats or exploits have. Nor is it an argument that we should keep the cheating and exploitive programs and view them as non-harmful because I want to keep my UO Assist or UO Macro or whatever.

4. Any program which in any way allows a player to perform actions quicker, more effectively, or in some way bends or exploits the rules or game bugs in such a way that it gives them an advantage (let's just say, as an example, something that lets you swing your weapon 2x as fast as anyone else holding the same weapon, or something that somehow tweaks with the game to make monsters drop 2x as much gold, or allows you to click an item and click an open inventory slot and dupe an item, or whatever) harms the game. It may be good for YOU. It may be good for your FRIENDS. It may make you perceive that YOUR game experience is now easier, more enjoyable and more rewarding. But any of those actions harm someone else's game, or everyone else's game. Maybe you're the best PK on the shard. Maybe you have millions upon millions of duped gold and you routinely buy out all the rares, driving the prices up for everyone else. Maybe you can duplicate rares and other desirable objects and load them onto your Luna vendor everyday in large quantities, leaving dozens of people who earned the item legitimately trying to sell it on their non-Luna house vendor for 7 weeks.


Basically, if your third party program in ANY way allows you to do something the average player could not do, without superhuman reflexes and abilities or in the in-game provided macro program, and confers any other sort of extra-regular advantage to your gameplay..... you are harming the game. No, you're not harming the code, you're not making the soul of UO bleed, and people are just tossing out scarecrows by even trying to drag the argument off into making those distinctions. But you are conferring an advantage on yourself which affects the economy, the game balance, the availability of in game resources, the cost of goods and the value of gold, for everyone else. You are the person chugging along at 85 in an area with a 45 mph speed limit everyone else is observing. Or the person who flies up a lane that says "lane closed ahead" and forces his way into the front of a long bumper to bumper line of people who were waiting their turn. That's what you're doing, either directly or indirectly.
Just adding a few things in there. We all know it's against the ROC. It's not mention in the TOS though. Bad language is also against the ROC and many more actions. Some where recently added. But there against it anyway so no disagreement there.

Theres different levels of things. You bring up duping, 2x swinging speed etc. these things are server side so no program can do this unless they havk the ea server and if they could do that they would make luna into a swamp and peerless spawn in youre house. Non can do that so that has nothing to do whith programs. Duping is not a program either it's exploiting a glitch in the programing server side like crossing a server line so a monster cant follow you or boat skill increase using the old method which is basicaly abolish cause of the removal of the anti-macro code. which has nothing to do with programs.

Third party programs only allow people to do what is possible to do manualy. For example if I used a macro in game to bandage myself well a program will use the same action as you would to bandage youreself cant make it go faster matter of fact they tell me it's slower than using youre macros to account for situations. It allows you to automate process which is 24 hour thing that you would have to be attended to do so there comes the unattended macro banning abilitie cause there are very few players able to stay up for 24 hours straight performing a repetitive action. Notice I said a few not impossible there are plenty of crazy players on the other side of the screen that go on playing games for 23 hour straight sleep a hour while server down and come back to play another session.
The solution which the dev are doing is making Kr or SA able to accomplish what these programs do so they are not used anymore because you will have these better clients that will be able to do it wont even need to pay royalties to the 3rd program designers.
Now whith the speed limit thing well I have to disagree on that as i get in a highway say the speed limit is 50 the highway is clear every car leaves me behind except for the 90 year old man on cruise control next to me and it's more likly the cops will stop me and ask me why am going so slow and not keeping up with traffic. Might be different from where you at but thats how it is over here in New york. Also people forcing lane changes thats as common as brething where i am either they do that or they run into the rail as most drivers down here wont even let you merge and you will be on the dead end lane for 30 min trying to merge with cars behind you merging before you can even though youre in front or honking there horn saying learn how to drive when theres traffic thats pretty often.

But we will disagree on these points we probably both wrong or both right but we both believe ourselfs right so thats life.
 

SirZ

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yes they hurt the game.
It's 100%.
Where is a punkbuster !?
 
U

UOKaiser

Guest
Yes they hurt the game.
It's 100%.
Where is a punkbuster !?
Punkbuster dont work. The script programs would be open source and so many different ones would be made and can easily mask it in youre system. Just do a google search bypass punkbuster then check it out.
 

dukarlo

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I voted yes, they hurt the game. I dont think every illegal program is bad but whats left of the player base has gotten to the point where they are inconsiderate and blatant about flaunting those programs in other peoples faces. If someone thats played the game for 10 years wants to work magery for the 12th time by afk macroing in a non offensive manner in the privacy of thier own home I dont really see the problem. Thier is no meaningful content for that player to work the magery. Killing skeletons, ogres lizardmen etc is neither challenging, fun or anything else for that matter. I had fun the first time around working skills on those types of things because it was new and thats how one actually learned to play the game. The problem is when people start using things to farm afk in public places(bods,quests, resource gathering etc) and speedhacks and scripts in pvp. Just go to yew gate on GL. Day after day you see the same people that are just ridiculously fast and will debuff,cure, heal, chug pots or whatever else instantly no matter what is thrown at them. Its situations like this where players show absolutely no restraint or good judgement that has made a good many quit. The fact that thier is really no fear of getting caught that makes the escalation of these programs rise on a daily basis. I would argue that these kind of cheats also mess up alot of the in game balances made by the devs. When a player has the abilty to run to safety at will because they are using a program, its a slap in the face to legitimate pvpers. It doesnt matter your pvp abilty one bit if that player can ALWAYS run to safety. So despite the fact I voted that the proggies are hurting the game the core of the problems is large numbers of legit players have left so we now have a large percentage of cheaters and a large percentage of disgruntled legit players. EA doesnt want to put resources into an 11 year old game and I can somewhat understand that. But to try for a 3rd time to sink money into a 3d client thats destined to fail for a 3rd time at the expense of policing the game is just ludicrous to me.
 

drinkbeerallday

Visitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
2. The use of illegal third party programs is, by definition, illegal, isn't it?
it's against the rules. it's not illegal IRL.

the rules also state they can terminate your account for any reason or no reason. that makes the whole idea of having rules sort of pointless to begin with.
 

Duskofdead

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
it's against the rules. it's not illegal IRL.

the rules also state they can terminate your account for any reason or no reason. that makes the whole idea of having rules sort of pointless to begin with.
I meant illegal in regards to the terms of using the game servers and what not, I didn't mean criminally liable.

And regarding your second comment...

If you are a guest in my house, I reserve the right to throw you out at any time, at my discretion.

Does that mean there's no point to any sort of rule and you might as well go start breaking my dishes?

The logical gaps here in the far-fetched attempts to water down the heavy useage of 3rd party programs are wide enough to march whole shard populations through, side by side. ;)
 
S

Salty Pete

Guest
The programs? Hmm... I don't think the cheats are ever the issue. I think the issue is EA/Mythic/OSI's response to these programs. Are they doing their best to fight these programs? Are they actioning enough accounts caught using these programs?

If anything is actually killing UO it is the developement/customer service response to the the programs. Some games actively attack these kinds of cheats, it really doesn't feel like UO's devs have ever done this... The fact that certain 3rd party programs used by a vast majority of cheaters have been in existance longer than the AoS version of UO leads me to believe that the people building cheat programs for FREE are out performing the PAID employees developing UO. That is absolutely ridiculous!
 

Kaleb

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UO:R and AOS killed UO. 3rd party apps are just like the bugs and maggots that eat the corpse.
 
L

Lord Kynd

Guest
This is a double edged discussion. Do all "Illegal Programs" hurt UO? No, take UO Wedding for example it was deemed Illegal not long ago but was a rather useful tool for the RP community.

I think there needs to be a defining line between a "Cheating Tool" and a harmless aid. Something the UOPro program was a bout.
not everything is evil.
 
D

daisuke

Guest
Is this program killing UO?



THAT SCRIPT KILLS BABIES AND ROBS THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES OF ALL THIER WATER!


but more on topic, i think a relatively simple solution to all the speeder and instacure ***** is have the GMs do occasional walkthroughs of the high traffic pvp zones and watch for these dumbasses. its not like it isnt ridiculously obvious. slap them with a 3 day like the afk miners get.
 

Hannes Erich

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Is this program killing UO?



Yes.

This thread sucks. You people might have made the devs listen to your concerns with a discussion. They do read these forums. But this thread is just a punching bag and many of you are ranting bitterly. The few voices of reason (on either side of the debate) are buried beneath a ton of bitter feelings and jaded excuses. Maybe if you learned how to use discussion forums constructively, you'd get more face time with the devs.

Also, the moderators of this forum should hold the community to higher standards instead of joining in.
 
R

Radun

Guest
HOWEVER, when i hear and sometiems see people fighting in pvp who are running 4, 5, 6 combat related illegal scripts that unequivocally give an advantage, ive got to draw the line. scripts that instantly cast a heal or apply a bandage. scripts that chain spells. scripts that instantly drink potions and then heal/bandage. scripts that eat apples. scripts that remove curse. scripts that debuff other then buff self. scripts that hide-shoot-stealth-dog form. scripts that jump you off your mount, dismount another player and remount at the first available nanosecond.
all of the above can be done with one 100% legal program. that same one 100% legal uopro approved program does give an unfair advantage over anyone who doesn't pay the fee to use it.
do some illegal programs give an unfair advantage? yes.
are illegal programs killing uo? I voted no. I don't believe they are.
 
O

OxAO

Guest
I voted no.

I do not believe scripts are hurting UO, some third party scripts greatly improved UO such as UO auto map and UO assist.

I also do not believe they should have a general ban on all scripts, but they should be regulated in some way. They need a more lax approval of scripts.

But there are those that abuses the scripts that do hurt UO.
 
E

ElRay

Guest
Maybe if you learned how to use discussion forums constructively, you'd get more face time with the devs.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pull the other one, it plays "jingle bells"
 

Hannes Erich

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Pull the other one, it plays "jingle bells"
Don't knock it until you try it. For a good example, take a look at how involved CCP is with the Eve Online community (excluding crunch times, obviously and understandably). The thing is, in that game's community, you often get the feeling that the devs and [many of the] players are playing on the same team and have the same goals. The majority of players aren't consistently bashing the people that work hard to bring them virtual entertainment (although there is a very vocal minority, just like in most MMO communities).

In Mythic's defense, I get the impression their team is much smaller than your average MMO's dev team. If such is the case, an obvious consequence would be much longer crunch times (this is EA we're talking about), and much less interaction. In our community's defense, the absence of a full-time community rep can't be good for player relations, no matter which way you slice it.
 

Duskofdead

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yes.

This thread sucks. You people might have made the devs listen to your concerns with a discussion. They do read these forums. But this thread is just a punching bag and many of you are ranting bitterly. The few voices of reason (on either side of the debate) are buried beneath a ton of bitter feelings and jaded excuses. Maybe if you learned how to use discussion forums constructively, you'd get more face time with the devs.

Also, the moderators of this forum should hold the community to higher standards instead of joining in.
It's really naive of you to think that devs or customer service reps ever much hear from customers other than when they're unhappy. In any industry.

Honestly it's not really up to the customer to be "calm and reasonable and coax the business they are patronizing into listenin to their concerns."
 
E

ElRay

Guest
Don't knock it until you try it. For a good example, take a look at how involved CCP is with the Eve Online community (excluding crunch times, obviously and understandably). The thing is, in that game's community, you often get the feeling that the devs and [many of the] players are playing on the same team and have the same goals. The majority of players aren't consistently bashing the people that work hard to bring them virtual entertainment (although there is a very vocal minority, just like in most MMO communities).

In Mythic's defense, I get the impression their team is much smaller than your average MMO's dev team. If such is the case, an obvious consequence would be much longer crunch times (this is EA we're talking about), and much less interaction. In our community's defense, the absence of a full-time community rep can't be good for player relations, no matter which way you slice it.
*leg is pulled, it proceeds to play "Jingle Bells"*

Dude, been there done that, this company sucks at fixing this game. Period.
End of story. No matter "how nice and cuddly" you are with the devs, they just double whopper with cheese on you with their ineptitude.

*Jingle all the waaaaaaaaaay*
 
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