- Jan 5, 2001
- 32,045
- 6,653
- 61,931
Some of the monster graphics in KR are amazing, but our poor characters look like blow-up dolls with a quasi-modo shuffle when they walk. Not right foot, then left foot as the 2D npc's walk, but left, left, left.
what should a new client look like?
- Thread starter Beastmaster
- Start date
- Watchers 4
-
Hail Guest! We're looking for Community Content Contribuitors to Stratics. If you would like to write articles, fan fiction, do guild or shard event recaps, it's simple. Find out how in this thread: Community Contributions
-
Greetings Guest, Having Login Issues? Check this thread!
-
Hail Guest!, Please take a moment to read this post reminding you all of the importance of Account Security.
-
Hail Guest! Please read the new announcement concerning the upcoming addition to Stratics. You can find the announcement Here!
I think the audio adds a lot to that, Petra.... it sounds like a pirate with a wooden leg
This is a rare person on Stratics.
My hat is off to you, Dermott.
Too few are willing to make an apology, or admit if they had made a mistake.
Well done.
S
Sabbath
Guest
D
D'Amavir
Guest
As an admitted 2D supporter, I of course prefer it over KR. That is not to say that there aren't some really good aspects of the KR graphics. Some of the creatures and structures look great to me. But, when it comes to characters and their gear and such, its far far from acceptable. That's just my opinion though. I understand and accept that others really like KR. In fact, I would LOVE for KR to be made better so that I could actually use it.
I am holding on to that small twig of hope that the SA client will finally accomplish what 3D and KR has failed to do, in my personal view at least. I know that the 2D graphics are severely dated. But, its what I am used to and it is what I see when I close my eyes and think about UO.
Despite popular opinion on these boards, not every 2D supporter has a closed mind in regards to KRish graphics being created and used for UO. Many of us just want to be sure that those graphics maintain both the feel of UO and the usability of 2D. Will SA meet those needs? Not sure. But I really hope so. As many have said, UO needs an influx of new blood. It just won't help much if you get a few new players and lose a lot of old ones. The new players are welcomed, absolutely. And I hope that those new players will stick around long enough to fall in love with UO like many of us oldies have. And I also hope they choose to become part of the UO community and not just be a UO player. Not that just being a UO player is wrong, or that it's not their right to be just a player. But the community was, and is, what makes UO what it is today. Old graphics, poor system designs and limited deep content aside, the players make UO.
S
Sabbath
Guest
D'Amavir, kudos to you - now THAT was an intelligent opinion. Hopefully we can all learn a lttle bit about how to express ourselves in a similar fashion.
D
D'Amavir
Guest
Did you see how well KR went? Thats because they are trying to turn UO into a modern game. It can't be done. The game is too old. They need to either recognize that this is and old game, and deal with it on those terms, or move on to the next, because I will say it now, UO will never be a modern game.
UO's main strength to me is that it's a good game (in theory) but sadly they keep messing it up trying to modernize it. Just look at how much time KR wasted. A year that could have been used to add content, fix bugs, and improve systems.
If they do make a UO2, they should NOT have character transfer. They should have some sort of bonus for old UO players, but we all would need to start on the same footing. I think its silly people are so invested in the game that they would be unwilling to start a new/better game cause they didn't get to keep thier old characters/stuff. Pretty silly if you ask me, that coming from an 11 year UO vet. Its a game, player for fun. Not an investment.
...
There were three aspects that caused KR to not be the client it should be:
1. It was released FAAR too early (apparently most likely due to pressure from EA Japan). and thus unfinished (but then they did this with the 3d client as well, though at the time, other than performance-wise, the 3d client was MUCH closer to "done" than KR, but then also consider that 3d was at a time when the game was MUCH smaller than it is now in terms of content, AND the 3d client was using most of the same client code)
2. The buyout of Mythic and the subsequent cross country move caused the aburpt end of weekly patching to the KR client and the loss of most of the KR development team (to the point that at one time, only one client dev for KR remained)
3. Attitudes such as that displayed by Aran in this thread that unless UO stays with the 2d client, they won't play it. While bringing up the shortfalls of a new UO client is perfectly legitimate, the so-called "supporters" of UO who take this type of attitude are doing NOTHING to actually support the future of the game because they try and push people away from the game who may be looking at the new client as a way to enter the game and have no desire to play a game with 10+ year old graphics and interface.
All we can do right now is wait to see how the current SA dev team re-releases the KR client as the SA client and go from there.
Two things have had a horrible history in regards to UO... 1. a fully 3d client, and 2. a sequel.
There were three aspects that caused KR to not be the client it should be:
1. It was released FAAR too early (apparently most likely due to pressure from EA Japan). and thus unfinished (but then they did this with the 3d client as well, though at the time, other than performance-wise, the 3d client was MUCH closer to "done" than KR, but then also consider that 3d was at a time when the game was MUCH smaller than it is now in terms of content, AND the 3d client was using most of the same client code)
2. The buyout of Mythic and the subsequent cross country move caused the aburpt end of weekly patching to the KR client and the loss of most of the KR development team (to the point that at one time, only one client dev for KR remained)
3. Attitudes such as that displayed by Aran in this thread that unless UO stays with the 2d client, they won't play it. While bringing up the shortfalls of a new UO client is perfectly legitimate, the so-called "supporters" of UO who take this type of attitude are doing NOTHING to actually support the future of the game because they try and push people away from the game who may be looking at the new client as a way to enter the game and have no desire to play a game with 10+ year old graphics and interface.
All we can do right now is wait to see how the current SA dev team re-releases the KR client as the SA client and go from there.
Two things have had a horrible history in regards to UO... 1. a fully 3d client, and 2. a sequel.
Indeed. The early release was beyond idiotic. It killed the client before it even had a chance. It was no where near ready, people play it expecting it to be ready, see how awkward it was and never play it again. But that wasn't the only problem if you ask me.
Also a good point.
Yes its true. And I think thats really a big part of the issue. Not that players demand a 2d game, but that UO is a 2d game, and that simply can't change without like 2 years of development, and if it comes to that, it would be in thier best interest to just make a whole new game.
No matter how nice it looks...UO is FLAT. Thats a big deal. You can't create an immersing modern gaming landscape with out being true 3d. The game world needs to look nice, and for that to happen, there needs to be depth.
I want to qualify this statement by saying I like UO how it is, and am looking forward to the SA client, because i really like alot of KR's features, but for me I cant play it regularly.
The sequel looked pretty dang good especially for the time it was being made,
that was just a matter of internal issues, not the game. Same with UXO if you call that a sequel. As for a fully 3d client, we haven't had one yet. Both 3d and KR are only partial, and KR is barely even partial.
...
For the last bit, there have been at least 3 attempts at UO sequels (UO2, UX:O, and at least one that was internal and killed before even being mentioned), as for the full 3d clients, the sequels were supposed to use them, and for a released Ultima with a 3d engine, we have Ultima 9 which was a steaming pile both in terms of a game and in terms of a game engine (especially the movement and camera).
I'm not saying that a 3d version of an Ultima can't be done, just that history hasn't been very kind to the prospect of one.
I'm just very skeptical of the prospect. I believe that a persistent MMORPG which the very nature of existence is constant change BECOMES its own sequel over time. That's also what I believe the UO dev team is trying to accomplish with SA nd the new client. Whether or not it will work really remains to be seen.
For the last bit, there have been at least 3 attempts at UO sequels (UO2, UX:O, and at least one that was internal and killed before even being mentioned), as for the full 3d clients, the sequels were supposed to use them, and for a released Ultima with a 3d engine, we have Ultima 9 which was a steaming pile both in terms of a game and in terms of a game engine (especially the movement and camera).
I'm not saying that a 3d version of an Ultima can't be done, just that history hasn't been very kind to the prospect of one.
I'm just very skeptical of the prospect. I believe that a persistent MMORPG which the very nature of existence is constant change BECOMES its own sequel over time. That's also what I believe the UO dev team is trying to accomplish with SA nd the new client. Whether or not it will work really remains to be seen.
G
Gwendar-SP
Guest
Well the 3d for both UO2 (for the time) and UXO looked pretty good to me. I still think it could be done well. It just takes some time, talent, and vision.
Yes, Sabbath, it does.
And the UO2-converted-to-UO-to-not-have-wasted-so-much-money graphics that were added in are rubbish too.
S
Salty Pete
Guest
QFT
The KR client looks horrible. The problem with the "3D" style game worlds is that they are square. Places that should be round have flat edges that are simple shaded to look round. Polygon worlds just look fake. No matter how good the art is that is wrapped around them.
Sounds like you need to take a closer look at KR. The 2d client used 3d models for the art too. Both clients use the same method to create the characters and creatures. They created very high poly count models and high res renders, then took snapshots for each frame of movement. The item and house tile art was never finished, but you can clearly see the potential by looking at most of the creatures.
For those complaining about how the Default UI looks, I'll agree... but we players can and are doing something about that.
The KR client looked ok....
The only thingwhy people didnt use it or try it was either because they simply had lag problems due to much older computers
Or the fact it was simply no longer UO . It was a total different game.....Im pretty sure i would have given it longer if there had been a classic playing interface as an option...ie same old UO gameplayer with the newer graphics!
The only thingwhy people didnt use it or try it was either because they simply had lag problems due to much older computers
Or the fact it was simply no longer UO . It was a total different game.....Im pretty sure i would have given it longer if there had been a classic playing interface as an option...ie same old UO gameplayer with the newer graphics!
D
D'Amavir
Guest
While I really support what you guys are doing to help the KR interface, it shouldn't be up to players to fix things in the games they play. And it shouldn't fall to the players to go out and find an interface that's worthwhile to use because the one that the developers released is just horrible.
That's not to say that I think that the developers of any game can created a UI that ALL players will enjoy, or that player designed interfaces don't have a place in the gaming world. Despite the fact that I don't tow the company line and that I have different opinions than other people, I r not an idiot. But there has to be a better way to take advantage of the many intelligent and driven players out there that enjoy doing tweaks like this. A lot of people have issues with downloading things like UIs from unofficial sites. Much like the whole 'fansite' issues, game developers should make the effort to recognize those players that want to improve their game and find some way to integrate those types of things into the 'official' sites for that game.
Yes, every time I log in. I played 2d for years, but for me 2d is over and I'm not going back.
But I realize that not everyone agrees with me and I don't wish to see people dragged against their will into a future.
I fear that the game was badly damaged by the catastrophically poor launch of KR (rushing to production before it was beta quality, even now it does not have what I consider minimum performance quality for a MMORPG) along with a few severe design missteps (inconsistent art between 2d and KR - not enough appreciation that after 10 years, peoples' imaginations are hardwired with the art of their much-prized possessions - it took me almost a year for my brain to really make the switch).
pfft, ive got 10+ years of prized possestions, id happily ditch them all in a second to have a better game to enjoy. They don't mean anything, I have all the memories attached to them.
And of course, theres no need to shut UO down. Everquest and EQ2 ran together for ages.
And of course, theres no need to shut UO down. Everquest and EQ2 ran together for ages.
...
The only thing I have against a direct sequel is that while the game system that UO uses would be great to see in a newer MMOG (as opposed to yet another level treadmill), if they put the game as Ultima in the same setting (Britannia), it just makes me wonder why they simply didn't upgrade the old game instead.
A new game with a new name and setting using 3d graphics and the same style of system UO uses would be great. But if you're talking about Ultima and Britannia itself, just upgrade UO and allow it to become its own sequel instead.
The only thing I have against a direct sequel is that while the game system that UO uses would be great to see in a newer MMOG (as opposed to yet another level treadmill), if they put the game as Ultima in the same setting (Britannia), it just makes me wonder why they simply didn't upgrade the old game instead.
A new game with a new name and setting using 3d graphics and the same style of system UO uses would be great. But if you're talking about Ultima and Britannia itself, just upgrade UO and allow it to become its own sequel instead.
It would be easier to make a new game new, than and old game new would be my thought.
Then again I think theres a lot of things wrong with UO that are too entrenched, removing or altering them would cause huge player backlash, yet still they have negative effects on the game.
If they would concentrate on making this game an evolving world, with good plot writers and event after event, content after content, I suppose almost nobody would ask for "better graphics". There are so many aspects where you could easily improve this game without the necessity to code a new client. If UO dies at some point, it will be a nice case study how to mis-manage gaming business.
S
Sarphus
Guest
I agree... the graphics are fine as they are... we just need the client to perform better when it comes to functionality.
I don't care about flashy, high end 3d graphics (If I did...would I still be playing UO?)
What I do care about is not having to spend a month redoing thousands of macros in order to play a game I've already spent nearly a decade playing.
I know I'm not alone in thinking that either.
Seriously, make the new client look however you want, just please for the love of god, make it so I can just log in and start playing.
What I do care about is not having to spend a month redoing thousands of macros in order to play a game I've already spent nearly a decade playing.
I know I'm not alone in thinking that either.
Seriously, make the new client look however you want, just please for the love of god, make it so I can just log in and start playing.
N
Ni-
Guest
That's wierd. I built a $500 custom rig about 7 years ago that allows KR to out perform 2D by 1/3. A rig that can't run Call of Duty 4 becuase it's so old.
I've tested running through Luna during peak time on Chesapeak from the void through to the first house east of Luna. 2D took 44 seconds and KR took 34 seconds. I did that test multiple times. Anything that KR bogs down, so does 2D.
There are some bug crashes, but non I can't handle. I like the convenience of faster/less-annoying char movement, one click looting, and one click spell casting/targeting with a full keyboard of macros. So I run KR 90% of the time. The other 10% is for stocking Vendors so that the backpack looks organized for 2D shoppers and gardening(I haven't tried gardening in KR).
S
Sabbath
Guest
Aran, I now understand your reasoning for calling the KR client trash. I honestly don't blame you for not liking KR because it *should* work great on your system - and hopefully with further Dev attention, whatever bug / incompatibility is causing your crashes will be fixed. But I am telling you, once you have a true chance to run KR and check out all it's capabilities, even when using the 2d/legacy art option, you probably won't call the whole client trash anymore.
I repeat that it is very unfortunate that there is some kind of incompatibility that shouldn't be there but you threw the whole client under the bus when there is probably only one or two things that would have you enjoying KR as much as those of us for whom it works well.
I invite you you to come over to the KR forum and post your system specs and ask for advice on where the problem may be - lots of people there are willing to help.
Kind Regards,
Sabbath
I repeat that it is very unfortunate that there is some kind of incompatibility that shouldn't be there but you threw the whole client under the bus when there is probably only one or two things that would have you enjoying KR as much as those of us for whom it works well.
I invite you you to come over to the KR forum and post your system specs and ask for advice on where the problem may be - lots of people there are willing to help.
Kind Regards,
Sabbath
T
Turdnugget
Guest
Before I came back to UO, I was playing Lineage II on a free server... I really enjoyed the graphics and gameplay.
First pic is of a castle siege... Sieges take place every week for every castle. Clans have to defend those that are raiding. It typically lasts an hour +. The defending guild can ally people to help defend... Raiders can ally people to help raid and try to take over the castle. The castle lord gets to ride a huge wyvern.
This second pic is an up close of a human. There are various races you can play and different classes. Faces are semi-customizable.
The other nice thing is you can choose your camera angle, zoom in and out.
First pic is of a castle siege... Sieges take place every week for every castle. Clans have to defend those that are raiding. It typically lasts an hour +. The defending guild can ally people to help defend... Raiders can ally people to help raid and try to take over the castle. The castle lord gets to ride a huge wyvern.
This second pic is an up close of a human. There are various races you can play and different classes. Faces are semi-customizable.
The other nice thing is you can choose your camera angle, zoom in and out.
I promised myself I wasn't going to get involved in this conversation, especially since it has strayed way off track of the original subject. (people just can't help themselves with this particularly heated subject matter it seems). But, here I find myself writing out a response anyhow. *grunts*
Dermott of LS: I hope you didn't take my remark about your signature in the wrong light. I wasn't being sarcastic towards you, it was merely a both somber and amusing thing to find after a year - to realize that the UO community thinks of the KR UI as a self evident fail.
I had a look at the Modder's Exchange and although I truly admire and appreciate the efforts you folks are putting forth, I must say I agree with D'Amavir: it's a sad day when players are literally forced to design a decent UI just because the developer has failed. Especially considering the fact that this is EA we're talking about, not some small indie dev team.
I can understand how frustrating it must be when people just whine and complain year after year - almost as if to bog down the efforts of those wishing to help KR move ahead. But one has to remember that most people around here have no choice due to lack of skills to actually contribute in a more concrete way. Words are their only tool. Besides, isn't that what these forums are for, voicing one's opinion and learning to understand different perspectives?
Although you and I run different agendas we are alike in our passion to "do something about it". You work to move the KR client ahead, whilst I try to stop UO from running straight into quicksand by emphasizing the goodness of the old UO with my art. I am simply attempting to visualize the wants and needs of those of us who lie in the other camp. Perhaps you think of me as an irritating rusty anchor, which pulls down a game already gasping for air. But I see the threat very differently from you.
MMOs are sprouting up like weeds, resembling each other in both art and UI style. They are all pooled together with the "hot MMOs" racing neck and neck behind the leading titles, to become the winners of the lot. Obviously times are good for the ones that manage to hoard the majority of MMO players - but it's only a matter of time until even they will lose their title to the "next big MMO" that comes along. As for the straggler loser MMOs left behind, the situation is very grim. Especially considering how much it costs to sustain a MMO.
The only way that UO has any business playing ball with the big league is if the skills, time, budgets and schedules match, and preferably surpass the likes of Blizzard and other top notch developers. But as we saw with KR, the outcome didn't even come close - in fact the "new and improved" UO barely made it to the b-class herd of MMOs. How can anyone expect UO to survive, let alone regain it's old glory by becoming just one more generic loser MMO?
Until last year, UO has survived because of the very thing that so many of us fight for with such ferocity - it is Ultima Online. It looks different, it plays different, it has literally no likeness with the generic MMO mishmash you see out there. It offers players something so unique that it simply cannot be found in any other game.
So what will happen when all of those unique and sometimes quirky qualities of the old UO are stripped away to make room for "modernization" and "improvement"? What will happen when UO cannot be distinguished from any of the other modern day MMOs?
Well firstly, we will lose the last of the dead hard fans devoted players, who - as they often say - "might as well play one of the top notch MMOs" if they are forced to convert. Seriously, why should they hang around a world they no longer recognize when it holds no sentimental value anymore? Why should they hang around when there is so much better quality to spend one's valued monthly dollars on?
Secondly, sure - we will get some new players passing through. But will this new fleet be the type to stick through thick and thin, like these old veterans have all these years? I find it very unlikely, for they will be, for most part "game hoppers" - players who go around trying out all the new MMOs and eventually settling on the best one on the market until something better comes along. UO will simply be a "Uh... that was weird - and what's with the crappy UI?" stop along their journey. They will hardly be left impressed, when there is so much better out there already. In fact, if anything - it's merely an embarrassment and yet another stain on the name of Ultima.
So Dermott, I respect your need to help the game along and I commend your good intentions, but I hope you understand where folks like myself are coming from as well. We aren't whining just for the sake of complaining - we really do fear for the future of this game and are saddened as we watch it disintegrate before our eyes.
Dermott of LS: I hope you didn't take my remark about your signature in the wrong light. I wasn't being sarcastic towards you, it was merely a both somber and amusing thing to find after a year - to realize that the UO community thinks of the KR UI as a self evident fail.
I had a look at the Modder's Exchange and although I truly admire and appreciate the efforts you folks are putting forth, I must say I agree with D'Amavir: it's a sad day when players are literally forced to design a decent UI just because the developer has failed. Especially considering the fact that this is EA we're talking about, not some small indie dev team.
I can understand how frustrating it must be when people just whine and complain year after year - almost as if to bog down the efforts of those wishing to help KR move ahead. But one has to remember that most people around here have no choice due to lack of skills to actually contribute in a more concrete way. Words are their only tool. Besides, isn't that what these forums are for, voicing one's opinion and learning to understand different perspectives?
Although you and I run different agendas we are alike in our passion to "do something about it". You work to move the KR client ahead, whilst I try to stop UO from running straight into quicksand by emphasizing the goodness of the old UO with my art. I am simply attempting to visualize the wants and needs of those of us who lie in the other camp. Perhaps you think of me as an irritating rusty anchor, which pulls down a game already gasping for air. But I see the threat very differently from you.
MMOs are sprouting up like weeds, resembling each other in both art and UI style. They are all pooled together with the "hot MMOs" racing neck and neck behind the leading titles, to become the winners of the lot. Obviously times are good for the ones that manage to hoard the majority of MMO players - but it's only a matter of time until even they will lose their title to the "next big MMO" that comes along. As for the straggler loser MMOs left behind, the situation is very grim. Especially considering how much it costs to sustain a MMO.
The only way that UO has any business playing ball with the big league is if the skills, time, budgets and schedules match, and preferably surpass the likes of Blizzard and other top notch developers. But as we saw with KR, the outcome didn't even come close - in fact the "new and improved" UO barely made it to the b-class herd of MMOs. How can anyone expect UO to survive, let alone regain it's old glory by becoming just one more generic loser MMO?
Until last year, UO has survived because of the very thing that so many of us fight for with such ferocity - it is Ultima Online. It looks different, it plays different, it has literally no likeness with the generic MMO mishmash you see out there. It offers players something so unique that it simply cannot be found in any other game.
So what will happen when all of those unique and sometimes quirky qualities of the old UO are stripped away to make room for "modernization" and "improvement"? What will happen when UO cannot be distinguished from any of the other modern day MMOs?
Well firstly, we will lose the last of the dead hard fans devoted players, who - as they often say - "might as well play one of the top notch MMOs" if they are forced to convert. Seriously, why should they hang around a world they no longer recognize when it holds no sentimental value anymore? Why should they hang around when there is so much better quality to spend one's valued monthly dollars on?
Secondly, sure - we will get some new players passing through. But will this new fleet be the type to stick through thick and thin, like these old veterans have all these years? I find it very unlikely, for they will be, for most part "game hoppers" - players who go around trying out all the new MMOs and eventually settling on the best one on the market until something better comes along. UO will simply be a "Uh... that was weird - and what's with the crappy UI?" stop along their journey. They will hardly be left impressed, when there is so much better out there already. In fact, if anything - it's merely an embarrassment and yet another stain on the name of Ultima.
So Dermott, I respect your need to help the game along and I commend your good intentions, but I hope you understand where folks like myself are coming from as well. We aren't whining just for the sake of complaining - we really do fear for the future of this game and are saddened as we watch it disintegrate before our eyes.