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Vet should be required to Bond to Pets requireing more than one control slot.

R

Radun

Guest
If these PvP tamers are so good, they'll still score kills with vet in their template.
And they do... which is why this suggestion isn't an actual solution to anything.
It doesn't solve anything. The problem isn't that the tamer's OTHER skills are unbalancing........ duh?

"Oh man, that guy dismounted me and sicked his gdrag on me... i couldn't get away cuz it had me dead in like 1 second... I bet if he had vet instead of resist, that overpowered tactic wouldn't have worked!"
Not likely... He'd still be able to dismount you, and the dragon would still take away 160hp over 2 seconds.
 
R

Radun

Guest
IMO it's the pet's magical/firebreath damage in PvP vs. Humans that needs to be addressed, not what skills the tamer has.

If someone is running w/out vet, so be it. They still have to find someone to rez their pets when they die.
QFT:scholar:
 
A

Aboo

Guest
. . . "Oh man, that guy dismounted me and sicked his gdrag on me... i couldn't get away cuz it had me dead in like 1 second... I bet if he had vet instead of resist, that overpowered tactic wouldn't have worked!" . . .
I got a really good chuckle when I read this, thanks!
 
R

Ravahan

Guest
You know what, all these new pets are stupidly overpowered anyway. Nerf the bastards.

I got along in peerless and Doom just fine with my mare and WW. There's no reason to need something that ungodly powerful. None. It needs to be toned down.

I watched someone essentially stand back while their GD plowed through all the named monsters in that swampy ML ilsh dungeon the other day, without any help whatsoever. He just stealthed around. Occassionally, if it got like 3 on it at once, he'd toss out some greater cures. This is freaking crazy!

You guys worrying about not nerfing the PvM tamers need to back up a minute and remember the days when Cu's were considered a little overpowered because they could bandage.

I say an all out nerf across the board for GD. I've not seen those dread horses or whatever yet, but if they're as bad as all that they need toned down too. Sure, it should be more powerful to take all 5 pet slots. It sure is a pain that you can't run around on a mount so you can run faster than your pet can keep up with anyway... But seriously. It should be more powerful than a standard dragon or WW, but it should NOT be a stand-alone weapon of mass destruction.
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
you're not suggesting that pvp pets dont die, are you?
mine do...
oh pets do die but they rarely do.
Used to be everytime that tamer dies the pet die. Now if the tamer die and relog it puts the pet in god mode.

Now its like if you want to kill a pet you have to do it while the tamer is alive, because if the tamer dies first, tamer can and most likely will cast godmode on any of their pets.

Pets do die but they rarely die. And the whole zero point one skillloss is too insignificant anyways.

btw ive seem a dead tamer ghost farming silver with a super dragon. and the GD went on for 4 hours without needing a heal while the tamer is completely afk and DEAD.
 

Wenchkin

Babbling Loonie
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
And they do... which is why this suggestion isn't an actual solution to anything.
It doesn't solve anything. The problem isn't that the tamer's OTHER skills are unbalancing........ duh?
Nobody has said "this is all that has to be done to balance tamers" though. I've certainly never said that. I think this is the first thing which needs to be changed. Not the only one.

It would simply balance up the gimplate tamers before more changes were made. I believe the problem templates should be addressed just as much as the power of the pets. If not more so. If you leave gimplates as they are and just nerf the pets, those gimplates are still going to have an extra skill over other tamers. They are still going to be doing more damage etc. To balance the taming class you'd need to nerf harder to allow for the more powerful gimplates which is unfair on the better trained tamers, or address gimps first and put all tamers on a more level field. Then you balance other aspects next. Rather than making the PvM tamer's pets seriously less powerful for PvM to allow for a non-vent gimplate setup.

Wenchy
 
R

Radun

Guest
and the tamers who have vet will have the ability to heal/cure/res their pets...
The ones without vet don't have more skills, they're just using their points differently.
If someone wants to forgo that ability for something else, so be it. Nobody should be forced to take on an ability they don't need.
 

Wenchkin

Babbling Loonie
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
and the tamers who have vet will have the ability to heal/cure/res their pets...

The ones without vet don't have more skills, they're just using their points differently.
If someone wants to forgo that ability for something else, so be it. Nobody should be forced to take on an ability they don't need.
So you're ok with most tamers (the PvP ones aren't the majority) being hit with a nerf purely to protect those few tamers who want to use a gimplate?

A necro can't sustain his vamp form without skill, so why are gimp tamers so deserving of an easy ride? Because you have one perhaps?

If a PvP tamer is running say 110/110 in taming and lore to control his GD/dread etc, he's investing 220 points already. He could switch to a pair of kitsune which would require skill of 85/80/80 for control and to allow vet skill for bonding... that's 245 skill points. So said tamer wouldn't be able to keep his GD, but he could switch to different pets and only has to find 25 points to bond with them.

Alternatively he can learn to fight with a 3 skill tamer or use unbonded pets. Nobody is forcing tamers to do anything, they just need to accept that when you build a hybrid tamer for PvP, you need to make some power concessions to run with a GD. If I build a warrior with swords and tactics, should he expect the same power as one who trained anatomy too? Or simply realise that he's sacrificing some of his power to build in another skill? Sometimes hybrids have to be changed in the name of balance. I think this is one of those times.

Wenchy
 

Ender

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Agreed for pets that require taming and lore to control.
 
R

Radun

Guest
[1] So you're ok with most tamers (the PvP ones aren't the majority) being hit with a nerf purely to protect those few tamers who want to use a gimplate?

[2] A necro can't sustain his vamp form without skill, so why are gimp tamers so deserving of an easy ride? Because you have one perhaps?

1, No. I don't even see how what I said is being construed as that. Don't put words in my mouth, now or ever. Putting a cap on how much damage a pet can do vs a player would NOT have an adverse effect on non-pvp tamers. I didn't even come close to proposing anything that would effect pvm tamers. Get a clue.

2, It's not the same as that, they're not bonding and controlling and ressing pets without the appropriate skillpoints allocated to taming vet and lore, so NO it's not anything like that analogy. If they were somehow exploiting skill items to res their own pets when no vets were available, then I could see how you have a point... But that's not the case, so that's not a valid point.



Your solution (force every tamer to use the same template) does NOT solve any problem. Tamers relinquishing the ability to res their own pets on the spot, to be able to pick up some other ability is not what makes tamers overpowered. period. Your proposal is simply not a solution to anything... The thing it would supposedly 'fix' is not causing a balance problem... and it doesn't even start to fix the actual cause of the actual balance problem we're faced with concerning pvp tamers.

Changing the tamer's template won't even come close to starting to fix the tamer-balance problem. The tamer's template is simply not the issue.

If they put this change in, it would have absolutely no effect on either the overpoweredness of the pets being used, nor the number of tamers using those pets in pvp. The only effect it would have is that all those tamers would suddenly have vet...
Vet tamer would literally become the new "gimplate" they would all use.
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
A typical tamer mage has both meditation and resist skill. Drop either one for vet and hes good to go again.

Same goes for the more popular dismount archer tamer... It's not hard to squeeze in that extra skill, vet skill can actually be fit into most gimp tamer templates we have currently, nice, easy and comfortably.
 
O

Old Man of UO

Guest
How about a resurrection shrine for pets? Many people have asked for this, especially miners. But at the same time make a change that if you cannot res your own pet with the vet skill, you have to go to the pet shrine to resurrect your pet. There could be a short time delay built into the shrine to prevent instant recall, res and return.

Dunno... just and idea. I dislike making skill requirements too high for a template because it discourages varying play styles, and as someone else pointed out, every tamer would look the same.
 

Wenchkin

Babbling Loonie
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
1, No. I don't even see how what I said is being construed as that. Don't put words in my mouth, now or ever.
Read my post again, I posted a series of questions. I didn't put anything in your mouth, I wouldn't dare... I was trying to clarify exactly where you stood and possibly why.

Putting a cap on how much damage a pet can do vs a player would NOT have an adverse effect on non-pvp tamers. I didn't even come close to proposing anything that would effect pvm tamers. Get a clue.
Not all tamers who PvP use gimplates. Some of us PvM/PvP in Fel with our tamers, and certainly WILL be affected if pet v player damage gets nerfed and leaves gimplates untouched. Think about it. Not all PvPing tamers use the lamest tactics and templates, or even pets. Simply nerfing pet damage v players on its own makes gimplates more appealing and damages the few non gimp tamers that remain.

2, It's not the same as that, they're not bonding and controlling and ressing pets without the appropriate skillpoints allocated to taming vet and lore, so NO it's not anything like that analogy. If they were somehow exploiting skill items to res their own pets when no vets were available, then I could see how you have a point... But that's not the case, so that's not a valid point.
Yes, I realise there aren't any exact matches for the tamer bonding setup, but the bottom line is, when I expect my characters to have the full benefits of a particular class, that involves training the skills up. Unfortunately EA decided to allow bonding with emphasis on taming skill rather than the tamer's ability to keep their end of the deal. I simply believe that the bonding deal is a two-way thing, and a pet shouldn't trust its owner to resurrect them when clearly they're unable to.

Your solution (force every tamer to use the same template) does NOT solve any problem. Tamers relinquishing the ability to res their own pets on the spot, to be able to pick up some other ability is not what makes tamers overpowered. period. Your proposal is simply not a solution to anything... The thing it would supposedly 'fix' is not causing a balance problem... and it doesn't even start to fix the actual cause of the actual balance problem we're faced with concerning pvp tamers.
I have 8 tamers, not one is the same as any other or a cookie cutter template. All with vet. So I disagree that all have to use the same template. I also disagree that having an extra skill at your disposal is not going to cause a balancing problem. Of course it is! If it didn't give PvP tamers the edge, they wouldn't be doing it.

Changing the tamer's template won't even come close to starting to fix the tamer-balance problem. The tamer's template is simply not the issue.
1 less skill combat skill means less power, otherwise folks wouldn't be here arguing to maintain the current setup.

If they put this change in, it would have absolutely no effect on either the overpoweredness of the pets being used, nor the number of tamers using those pets in pvp. The only effect it would have is that all those tamers would suddenly have vet...
Vet tamer would literally become the new "gimplate" they would all use.
Again, I have said this is the first thing which which needs to change, not the only one. So what if all tamers then have vet? they'll be considerably less overpowered and balanced, so hardly "gimp". If their pets are then toned down too, they'll certainly not be top of the damage dealing pack or the nerf list.

Wenchy
 

weins201

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Lets see Necro some are running aorund with 60 just so they can pain spike

Nija 85 will get you to a speey form so you can run away, or keep up

40 - 50 chiv for simple cure and small heals

I NEVER said this was the fix but it would effect some of the GIMPLATES as they have been labled.

Pet damage is not the issue.

If oyu get caught in a choke point and die to a pet well serves you right. The same choke point was previously controlled by mage templates, and will be again once pets are nrfed like everyone wants.

Oh and if you really read it says it will only afect a few of the templates.

And yes it should NOT effect any no skill bonds pets (Fire beetles, Pack Beetles, Samis Hiryu, and any others out there) thought i said that also in the beginning.


If you get killed in an open field by a pet well sorry you just SUCK. I am not talking a 4 - 1 gank which you shouldn't have a chance to live thru anyhow but the, one tamer dismounted me and his pet killed me.

Pets are not the issue nor the damage they put out, it the temp controlling them. Nerfing the greater dragon will just mean tamers will go back to the beetle with a mare, or bake combo which is still very effective. They are even better in open fields as they have the ability to keep up and cast more spells a little faster.

Those of you who think the pets are the problem just dont like the fact that you die to pets PERIOD. If oyu had your way pets and PvP would not mix.

Its the templates that cause the problems and every time a mage falls of the top pedestal in PvP there is ALWAYS an outcry.

80 points on a PvP template is VERY VERY VERY effective, if you dont agree, well your nutz.
 
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