Vallend rants about ships.. again!

[Vallend]

I have often wondered after seeing this picture from UO's Alpha game testing about the ship in the picture. This picture was from way back in 1996 so I don't know if the ship moved or not, but I know I have always wanted larger ships with multi-masts. Hasn't game technology come far enough that they could make better ships for us?

screenshot from UO Alpha 1996

I know right now ships are made up of tiles and they have to be moved forward one at a time, and this has held the Devs back from doing more with ships. I will admit I am far from a programmer so I have no idea how hard it would be to do, but I do believe in 13 years someone would of come up with a faster and easier way to do ships.

Lets face it a huge part of the gaming world is made up of water, and it is way under used at this time. Most people don't travel by boat with the ease of magic and the gate system to get around. So the only ones who do use boats are the fisherman, people training skills and maybe players who need to mark new runes on a island. ( I almost forgot those who role play pirates for fun too.) Little known fact about when I first started playing UO. I couldn't afford a house but I could buy a ship and for a few months I lived off that ship in game.

How many of you have seen this ship at Papua and thought it would be great to hit the high seas on? How many of you are tired of the same old ships and want to have a way to customize your ship some.

I still hope that someday the Dev team makes it so we can design our own ships much the way we do with houses now. maybe after they get done with SA they can turn their attention to the Oceans and give us a reason to want to travel the waters again.

 

[Solomon Wright]

Vallend,

A fair request regarding ships, for certain.

And consider this: what lies beneath the waves is significantly more expansive than the surface itself.

-Solomon Wright, Sosarian Monk

 

[E.G.Meridius [PGoH]]

Well stated Vallend, I couldn't agree more. Let us take to the high seas!

 

[4th3ist]

If we could craft massive galleon's with the same storage capacity as houses, I know I for one would probably drop me house and live at da seas!

 

[Farsight]

I, for one, would kill to have a shipyard and docks in our little pirate village. But to do that all proper-like, we'd need to be able to build on the water, as we can't build a house close enough to the water to get the illusion docks.

And no ship-like additions to our house to simulate a dry-dock without paying two arms and a leg. And I wouldn't want to be the pirate named "Stumpy".

But yes indeedy,
our lives at sea need a
COMPLETE overhaul.

 

[TimberWolf]

oh christ Val don't get the pirates started about ships.....they are worse then tamers and their pets!!!
lol
But I do agree it would be sweet to be able to place a huge ship and decorate it like a house etc.

 

[Corvak]

We'd never see Hawkeye or his crew on land again if they update ships like this....

But life at sea needs some help

 

[TimberWolf]

Man Anne Nomilly would love this, she could make a ghost ship.... she has enough death robes!

hehehe

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Vallend, I'd also like to see different and bigger ships with more functionality (like cannons) and some sea battle system. Ships are just a pack of single tiles that have to moved simulatneously, which makes ship moving a nightmare. You all can experience that when standing on a driving ship with a bunch of guildmates, seeing all the lag and the choppy animation.

The point is, ships would have to be completely redesigned and coded, which is probably subject to a whole new pirate expansion.

The ships you show in the screenshots (the one from Alpha, and the anchored one in Papua) are static ships that never were meant to be moved around. Those can be easily built (just like houses). Speaking of which, I agree with Aneiring that it would be great if we could build docks or a shipyard in certain areas of Britannia.

 

[Valthonis]

it is defintly an area of game that needs improvment but i agree it would be more along the lines of a new expanchin so there would have to be a huge amount of intrist in it

 

[TimberWolf]

it wouldn't take much to start off with to make permanently docked ships along the shore line to use like houses.


hmmm I might have to go on test center and make a house that looks like a ship....

 

[Vallend]

While doing some more research I ran across the following picture.

It claims to be of an Skara invasion by pirates in 2002 on the Drachenfals Shard. I so want bigger ships in game so they better do an expansion of the seas next.
Besides Ships and pirates have always been a part of Ultima to me. I think it was in Ultima 3 or 4 that you could fight pirates and capture their ships. I can also remember a whirlpool that chased me all over the place till it caught me once and I was pulled under. I thought I had lost my ship and was pretty much dead. Only to find it was a gateway to some place new.
I also always wanted to walk under the water through some use of magic. A entire new under water land to explore. Ship wrecks and sunken cities.. Fighting sharks and mermen.. On top of the water fighting ghost ships and having a sea born form of lizardmen boarding your ship. I have dreamed a long time about all this lets just hope thje Dev team has too.

 

[Corvak]

I had the NES version of this one. It was Ultima 4 (quest of the avatar). Pirates would randomly appear on coasts - should you end the battle with one of your units on their ship, you win it.

Ships were the only way to go to Buc's Den in the game. And you could go to Magincia, but it was a pile of wreckage (not unline present day UO).

You could also randomly encounter pirates at sea and battle them ship to ship (no cannons, but you board the pirate and fight them off. You couldn't get two ships however, the pirate would sink after the fight.)

 

[Shioni]

Here we go an 11 year old rant...


I have three good reasons why your not getting new ships any time soon.

Reason Number 1: One of the first item duplication cheats involved using a boat (this cheat has been fixed ages ago)

Reason Number 2: The code to animate ship moment is very out of date and changing it would require an overall on the system effectively destroying existing ship. And would require a remapping of every Ocean to Shore collision

Reason Number 3: If the second reason doesn't explain it. This last reason is my own personal experience with modding ships. The game wasn't scaled for bigger ships, and they look goofy.


Reasons aside Id hope some development is made on the water side of the game. A friend of mine ran a shard that used the sea horse animations and let people glide around in the ocean, it was really sweet.

*sigh as I log into old Catskills*

 

[Bob_the_fart_guy]

Well, seems Shioni has put that to rest. Don't get me wrong, newly modified ships would be pretty cool. Vallend, I didn't know you had such a beef about boats. I would have expected it from on of the United Pirates.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Vallend, I didn't know you had such a beef about boats. I would have expected it from on of the United Pirates.

Arrrr, our mouths are bleeding already from making such suggestions. From adding docks to houses to a whole Pirate Expansion.

 

[Vallend]

Bob let us be realistic, if the Dev team had made a sea related expansion a few years ago, instead of starting KR (kingdom Reborn) and SA (Stygian Abyss), the game would be in much better shape. You ask why? Well the way I see it most people these days have no idea of what the Stygian Abyss is and have never played a single Ultima game. Now how many people do you know who have seen The “Pirates of the Caribbean” movie series? EA if they had been smart should of struck while the iron was hot, and released a expansion where players could have adventures on the high seas. How many people do you think would of picked up that box and dreamed of becoming the next Captain Jack Sparrow while reading the back of the box.

Now picture the same guy picking up an new SA box and seeing yet another game with a new dungeon oh and you can be a gargoyle too. (Sure us diehard Ultima fans know what gargoyles mean to our world, but the average person will be thinking, “Those ugly statues on building? Why would I want to be one of them?”) Now look at the other MMORPGs on the same shelf. How many of them have a new dungeon or dungeons in their latest expansion?

Now I am sure someone will say well what about “Pirates of the burning Seas” and “Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean Online” don’t they have that market cornered? Well when EA should of jumped in they didn’t, and those both are two types of game that UO is not. Burning Sea is more of a game like Eve online. Meaning that it is more ship to ship combat and the controlling of ports game. Whereas Disney’s Pirates is aimed at a younger audiences and limits what a player can do. In UO the player could of become the pirate of his dreams sailing the high seas, and visiting a tavern afterwards to drink some grog and swap tales with other pirates.

I have always felt from the beginning of UO that the seas could be so much more, and thought the Dev team must see this too. I want you to pick up your original UO map and look at it. Look at all that blue water there, and its barely being used at all. Now just take a few seconds and think what all can be done with it. Little things such as ghost ships, underwater cities and dungeons, Entire new classes of creatures, pirates, seas merchants traveling from port to port. All waiting to be explored by the players.

Now if they redid the ships where as it was not a huge pain to travel over water and added new types of ships, do you think players would use the seas more? How about ships that travel at different speeds? (As of right now all the ships move at the same speed.) Now picture small thin ships that are very fast to travel on but are poorly armed. Now picture a much bigger ship that is slow but has cannon mounted on it and maybe a ballista or two. This larger ship also has a larger cargo hold full of goods taking them from Jhelom to Skara. The smaller ship has and pirate crew on it and they quickly overtake the slower and larger ship hoping to board it and take the cargo as their own. The pirates ship is faster and darts in and out, striking with bows and magic, but the larger ship has the advantage in having cannons that fire at the gnat that is pursuing them. That just really isn’t possible now. Now picture how it is now two ships that look the same sailing at the same speed fighting it out. It is just not as interesting to me.

You may be wondering why I am so for different type ships and customization? How many people do you know uses the old classic houses? Why not? Because people want things that they can make their own and add their own touch of style to. How much pride would you have to be seen on a ship designed by you? Ask yourself what type of ship would you build, a fast scout ship, a slow merchant ship, a yacht, a warship? Players are yelling for second homes, but space has to be left for new players if any come into the game. Well how about a custom ship with a few levels to it? It would become a floating second home decorated the way you want it. I just see ships as a great way to add so much to an already great game is all.

 

[Bob_the_fart_guy]

...wow. Um. I read every bit of your post Vallend. I swears' it. And yeah, don't get me wrong, it would be extremely cool. Wow, VERY cool indeed. I just hope that the waters would not become un-sail-able due to the amount of boats on it. Now, maybe if there were, heck I dunno, an option on a house placement tool like: convert water vessel to housing. So-as to keep the waters clear of clutter? Dunno, just talking on a whim here.

But heck yeah, you have great points.

Bob let us be realistic, if the Dev team had made a sea related expansion a few years ago, instead of starting KR (kingdom Reborn) and SA (Stygian Abyss), the game would be in much better shape. You ask why? Well the way I see it most people these days have no idea of what the Stygian Abyss is and have never played a single Ultima game. Now how many people do you know who have seen The “Pirates of the Caribbean” movie series? EA if they had been smart should of struck while the iron was hot, and released a expansion where players could have adventures on the high seas. How many people do you think would of picked up that box and dreamed of becoming the next Captain Jack Sparrow while reading the back of the box.

Now picture the same guy picking up an new SA box and seeing yet another game with a new dungeon oh and you can be a gargoyle too. (Sure us diehard Ultima fans know what gargoyles mean to our world, but the average person will be thinking, “Those ugly statues on building? Why would I want to be one of them?”) Now look at the other MMORPGs on the same shelf. How many of them have a new dungeon or dungeons in their latest expansion?

Now I am sure someone will say well what about “Pirates of the burning Seas” and “Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean Online” don’t they have that market cornered? Well when EA should of jumped in they didn’t, and those both are two types of game that UO is not. Burning Sea is more of a game like Eve online. Meaning that it is more ship to ship combat and the controlling of ports game. Whereas Disney’s Pirates is aimed at a younger audiences and limits what a player can do. In UO the player could of become the pirate of his dreams sailing the high seas, and visiting a tavern afterwards to drink some grog and swap tales with other pirates.

I have always felt from the beginning of UO that the seas could be so much more, and thought the Dev team must see this too. I want you to pick up your original UO map and look at it. Look at all that blue water there, and its barely being used at all. Now just take a few seconds and think what all can be done with it. Little things such as ghost ships, underwater cities and dungeons, Entire new classes of creatures, pirates, seas merchants traveling from port to port. All waiting to be explored by the players.

Now if they redid the ships where as it was not a huge pain to travel over water and added new types of ships, do you think players would use the seas more? How about ships that travel at different speeds? (As of right now all the ships move at the same speed.) Now picture small thin ships that are very fast to travel on but are poorly armed. Now picture a much bigger ship that is slow but has cannon mounted on it and maybe a ballista or two. This larger ship also has a larger cargo hold full of goods taking them from Jhelom to Skara. The smaller ship has and pirate crew on it and they quickly overtake the slower and larger ship hoping to board it and take the cargo as their own. The pirates ship is faster and darts in and out, striking with bows and magic, but the larger ship has the advantage in having cannons that fire at the gnat that is pursuing them. That just really isn’t possible now. Now picture how it is now two ships that look the same sailing at the same speed fighting it out. It is just not as interesting to me.

You may be wondering why I am so for different type ships and customization? How many people do you know uses the old classic houses? Why not? Because people want things that they can make their own and add their own touch of style to. How much pride would you have to be seen on a ship designed by you? Ask yourself what type of ship would you build, a fast scout ship, a slow merchant ship, a yacht, a warship? Players are yelling for second homes, but space has to be left for new players if any come into the game. Well how about a custom ship with a few levels to it? It would become a floating second home decorated the way you want it. I just see ships as a great way to add so much to an already great game is all.

****Waves to Hawkeye****

 

[Moonwynd]

>>>>>...Wow, VERY cool indeed. I just hope that the waters would not become un-sail-able due to the amount of boats on it....you have great points.

****Waves to Hawkeye****

This would be my concern too, just as Bob says above... that the waters would become tooo saturated with sailing vessels that are not being used and theirr only purpose is that of storage, for the most part. I love your idea, Vallend, and I agree that its something that would have been a big boost for UO. With this in mind I think house boats could be successful if there were to be some sort of docking area for house boats and if left unattended out on the water, for say 7 days and not at a docking station then maybe implement a decay rate.

Just a few thoughts...

 

[Norrar]

What about this as a scenario...

Player places Ship.
Players home goes into decay while Ship is out.
Player docks ship, Housing returns to normal.

Obviously would need extensive testing, but it could work with some tweaking.

And yes I know, some people would just switch it back and forth everytime to keep the ship out, but maybe only allow it to work so often a week?

 

[hawkeye_pike]

What about this as a scenario...

Player places Ship.
Players home goes into decay while Ship is out.
Player docks ship, Housing returns to normal.

Obviously would need extensive testing, but it could work with some tweaking.

And yes I know, some people would just switch it back and forth everytime to keep the ship out, but maybe only allow it to work so often a week?

I agree that some measure would be required to avoid the cluttering of the sea. I remember back in the Early Days when ships were actually very popular (despite all the lag), that the coastlines and especially the docks in the cities were quire cluttered with anchored ships (ships didn't decay back then).

Norrar's suggestion sounds reasonable, however it would be too much of a risk that a player forgets about docking the boat and unintentionally loses his house and all his possessions.

I like the suggestion with the docks very much though:
Houses in certain areas near the beach can be enhanced with docks. If you anchor a ship at one of the docks (which should be handled similar to adding friends to the house, to avoid strangers blocking your docks), the ship won't decay. If left alone at any other location, it will decay after 3 days.
This way, you will have a secure storage in your boat as long as ye anchor it at some docks. It would open a whole new set of possibilities, like harbor masters, shipping lanes, people living on ships, sea battles etc.

Vallend is full of very good ideas, too! Different types of vessels with different speed and functionality - I'D LOVE THAT! I can imagine that certain wares cannot be transported by recalling/gate or other means of travel, but only by ship. Secret shipping lanes would have to be established, and if you'd remove the stupid Trammel ruleset on the seas, merchants would hire protection against pirates. Merchants would probably use fast ships to excape pirates, or if they need a bigger hull for many wares, big Galleons equipped with cannons. Imagine a ship having hit points (similar to a peerless). It would take damage when shot at, but it would take a lot to sink it. This way, ships would have to sail from player-run docks to docks where they could be careened (repaired). My mind just explodes with ideas...

However, I do not think that the pirate theme is not popular anymore. Pirates always have been a popular theme for movies and games. The popularity increased with Pirates of the Caribbean, but it still will be a popular theme 5 years from now. A pirate expansion would really add a whole new "sandbox" or playing style to the game, more than any other expansion before. My guts tell me that it may become the next UO expansion...

 

[Corvak]

The pirate theme is indeed still popular. Most fantasy setting MMOs have pirates of some form or another.

And some Sci-Fi games as well...Go Metroid

Theres also speculation that World of Warcraft (oh god, I said it, don't kill me!) is planning a Pirate/Sea based expansion as their next one.

 

[Vallend]

Once again I was thinking about ships so I thought I would post a few of my thoughts to share with all of you.

Ships like the Frigate, Schooner, Sloop, Brig (and Brigantine), Barque, Galleon, Galley, Fluyt and Merchantman were used by pirates at their high point. The problem with them was these watercraft came way after the time period that UO is set in. Also all these ships share a general look to them, Multi-leveled ships with sails on them and cannons mounted on the sides. Right now the ships we have in game resemble the classic Viking Longships and they fit pretty close to the proper time period. Also we have the Tokuno islands with their oriental theme yet there are no Asian ships such as Junks or Sampans to use there.

How many of you have played Sid Meier’s Pirates game? Wind conditions have an important effect on sailing in that game. If the wind was with you could go faster in that direction of the wind. If it was blowing towards you, you had to cut back and forth to move forward at a much slower rate. Should something like this be added to UO, or would that be too much of challenge in the game and take away from the fun of traveling by ship?

Should oared watercrafts like the Greek Bireme and Trireme be added to the game? If so would there be NPCs rowing the ships? If wind was added they could keep the same speed going into the wind, but would be a good bit slower than pure sailing craft. The Bireme and Trireme both were designed to ram other ships so would they have this ability in game?

Should we have custom ships in game that you design yourself or should they all be preplanned and on a deed? I have thought long and hard on some people’s opinions that all the shorelines will be packed with ugly ships if we let players customize ships. So if we go with Deeds how can a player make his ship special? Maybe have a few gold sink items that can be added to your ship? Such as colored sails or a symbol that can be placed on a sail? Decretive shields that can be placed down the side of your ship sort of like they had in the old Viking movies? Special tillermen outfits? Maybe a flag to fly from the back of your ship or off the top of your mast?

What I would love to see is new bigger types of ships that come in deed form and cost millions to buy, but the hook is you have to gather the wood, metal and cloth to build it. Plus the first time it is placed in the water it must be done by a special NPC called a ship builder. They will be found at city docks and the new ship deeds will work a bit like commodity deeds in that all the materials for your ship must be collected and dropped into the deed before giving it to the ship builder. You may ask why? This way there will not be tons of ships just sitting round and those with ships will have had to work to earn them.

EXAMPLE:
Type: Sloop
Size: Small
Cost: 5 million Gold
Running Crew: 5
Cargo Space: 175 stones
Speed: Very Fast
Hull Points: 1000
Ships Weapons: 4 Cannons (2 per side)
Materials required: 5000 planks of wood, 4000 ingots of metal, 400 bolts of cloth

Now let me explain my logic behind each of these steps.
Type: Just gives you the ship type name
Size: will give you a general ship size idea
Cost: Is the overall cost the ship builder charges you for making you the ship. New ship types should not be cheap and could be a fun guild project to get one.
Running crew: is the amount of people you need in order to sail and fire all your weapons. The sloop will have a captain and 4 crewmembers to fire the cannons. Any less than that and for each missing crew member one cannon will not be able to fire. Crews can be much larger though.
Cargo Space: Just tells how much you can have in your ships Hold. Larger ships should be able to carry more things in its hold. (I would love to see NPCs that pay players to carry cargo from one port to another.)
Speed: Is how fast your ship travels on the water. Smaller ships can travel faster but have thinner hulls. Larger ships can carry more cargo and have a thicker hull so they can take more damage.
Hull Points: This is how much damage a ship can take before it sinks. When a ship reaches ¾ of its Hull Points its top speed is cut in half, When a ship reaches ½ its Hull Points its speed is then cut down 1/4th of top speed. When a ship reaches 1/5th of max Hull Points the ship stops and can be boarded. If all the Hull points are lost the ship sinks and all crew members will be transported to the last city dock the ship was at. All the Cargo will be lost too and to get your ship back you must check with the ship builder to see what boards, metal and cloth is needed to fully repair your ship. Same with any damage taken in a fight, though player ran craftsmen could make the repairs on ships that were still afloat, as long as they had the necessary materials.
Ships Weapons: (Cannons) Cannons are a touchy subject that if allowed to fire at anything would be abused by players to kill monsters while safely on a ship. So cannons on ships will only damage other ships. Let us just say they do 200 Hull Points damage when they hit a ship and fire out to 10 paces away. Each cannon must have a player standing next to it to fire it and that player will be in charge of targeting the ship you are firing on. I also thought of making the players use alchemist to mix gun powder kegs for the cannon to use and tinkers to make cannon balls. That way cannons would need to be reloaded say after every 5 shots? One keg of gun Powder would make 5 shots, same with a pile of cannon balls. Meaning that ships would have to rely on other classes of characters if they wanted to carry enough ammo to fire their cannons.
(Ballista) Work somewhat like cannons but fire a large arrow shaped projectile. These would do 100 Hull Point damage and must be manned just like a cannon. Though having a shorter range then a cannon (8 paces away) they can fire more often and can fire 10 times before needing to reload. Fletchers can make ammo for them.
Materials: What materials are needed to build the ship you desire. Taking in account the wood for the hull, Metal for weapons and ship parts and cloth for a sail. When the ship takes damage in a sea battle some of these will need replaced. Repairs can either be done by the ship builder NPC or a qualified Craftsmen.

One of my more interesting ideas was to allow the players to use different types of metal and wood for bonuses on your ship. Some woods may give your ship more Hull Points where as another type of wood may make your ship one speed level faster. Some metals may improve your cannons chances of hitting or give you longer range. By using this system players have a chance of vastly improving their ships if they get higher quality materials to build it. I see this as a way of getting more players out gathering resources so that they can have the best ship on the high seas. While others will settle of normal wood and metal on their ship for the ease of repairs.

 

[Zuckuss]

Great idea for sure! The question of littered coastlines comes into question. Also the huge revamping to the code would take much effort.

What if they were to give us plopable large ships and they would be considerably bigger, maybe have a lower deck and an upper deck. And to prevent overplacement of these vessel how would the community feel if they perhaps took up a house slot? There would be lockdowns and secures of course. Even if they couldnt make it move, would it still be cool to have a large ship placed somewhere near the coastline? It would be just like a house, but in the water. Perhaps you can have the same boarding/unboarding system with the planks. Maybe even people would put their "house ships" out in the middle of the sea, so they can just recall aboard or sail a smaller vessle to it. I would love to see them be able to move but I can really see the trouble in making that happen. What if for the time being, they worked on simply getting us larger vessels that we could own and board etc. and maybe down the road they can figure out a way to make them travel.

I think even having a stationary large ship would still be pretty cool. And one would look great in the pirate village.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Ah, we're thinking about similar things. I actually wrote a whole concept for a Pirate and Seafaring Expansion a few weeks back. Check this:

http://www.aschulze.net/ultima/blog/blog_20090220.htm

I think that custom ships with complex design (like multiple levels) are pretty much impossible with the current game engine. That's why I sticked to pre-designed ship types of different size. Similar to our current ships, but much nicer, more variety, and with the option to mount cannons on them.

 

[CatLord]

... and this was one year ago...

 

[Black Sun]

... and this was one year ago...

I just couldn't resist.

 

[Podolak]

*kicks Catlord*

I don't recall the character Catlord being a necromancer!

Black Sun, don't tell me you used to play Magic too...

 

[Claudia1]

Magic! yay! my new decks kick tail!!!

 

[Black Sun]

Black Sun, don't tell me you used to play Magic too...

I had a kickass black/red and an annoying to play against blue/white deck back in HS.

 

[Scarst]

Don't you think when the mod's are getting pissed at someone said person has gone to far haha.

I played a blue flying deck and later ELFBALL! All elves are good for are mana.

I also did wellwishers those guys are annoying.

As for thread necromancy yeah don't do it.

 

[Gheed]

I have thought about this for many years. I don't think ships would be a good idea in the current lands. Even if they could be designed properly. Even though the seas are very large, there will be popular spots way over crowded... a Luna/brit bank of the seas so to speak. And there would definitely be popular hunting grounds that most would want to log off in to avoid sailing long distances. throw in custom dock add-ons for houses near the shore (which I'm all for btw) and the current seas are all that more crowded.

I could only imagine ships would work in the new client. And that would be a good chance for the devs to use the ec for new lands/waters built to the ec strengths instead of trying to cram the square peg of an old game into a round hole of a new client. Some good fiction could smooth out the edges:

Discover the world is flat! The new facet Trammel was created as a mirror image of fel. But the round world of tram was just an illusion. Before, as adventurers neared the end of tram, they were transported to the opposite edge of the world by the magic that spawned tram. The adventurers continued on unaware of this powerful magic that deceived them. But this magic has weakened. The edge has unraveled!

Hmm... I'm no writer I guess. The idea is to enter the new lands by sailing off the edge of the world. This new world would have a small starting town dedicated to both clients, but to sail on the seas or play the lion's share of the new content, you would have to use the ec.